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song of the shepherd, dick miles

The Sandman 19 Jul 12 - 01:24 PM
Continuity Jones 19 Jul 12 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,Uncle Jaque 20 Jul 12 - 11:09 AM
The Borchester Echo 20 Jul 12 - 04:56 PM
The Sandman 22 Jul 12 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 22 Jul 12 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 22 Jul 12 - 05:35 AM
johncharles 22 Jul 12 - 11:54 AM
Speedwell 22 Jul 12 - 01:24 PM
The Sandman 22 Jul 12 - 01:56 PM
The Sandman 22 Jul 12 - 02:25 PM
johncharles 22 Jul 12 - 03:10 PM
The Sandman 22 Jul 12 - 04:22 PM
Continuity Jones 22 Jul 12 - 04:35 PM
The Sandman 22 Jul 12 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 22 Jul 12 - 04:49 PM
The Sandman 22 Jul 12 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 22 Jul 12 - 06:00 PM
The Sandman 22 Jul 12 - 06:15 PM
johncharles 22 Jul 12 - 06:27 PM
johncharles 22 Jul 12 - 06:46 PM
The Sandman 23 Jul 12 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 23 Jul 12 - 04:59 AM
The Sandman 23 Jul 12 - 06:12 AM
The Sandman 23 Jul 12 - 06:26 AM
johncharles 23 Jul 12 - 06:37 AM
The Sandman 23 Jul 12 - 06:53 AM
The Sandman 23 Jul 12 - 08:03 AM
C Stuart Cook 23 Jul 12 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 23 Jul 12 - 08:48 AM
The Sandman 23 Jul 12 - 09:02 AM
Vic Smith 23 Jul 12 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 23 Jul 12 - 10:15 AM
Vic Smith 23 Jul 12 - 10:58 AM
Spleen Cringe 23 Jul 12 - 11:11 AM
Spleen Cringe 23 Jul 12 - 11:14 AM
Will Fly 23 Jul 12 - 11:14 AM
Will Fly 23 Jul 12 - 11:17 AM
johncharles 23 Jul 12 - 11:22 AM
Vic Smith 23 Jul 12 - 11:40 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 23 Jul 12 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 23 Jul 12 - 12:18 PM
Vic Smith 23 Jul 12 - 12:23 PM
Spleen Cringe 23 Jul 12 - 12:43 PM
Spleen Cringe 23 Jul 12 - 12:45 PM
The Sandman 23 Jul 12 - 12:51 PM
The Sandman 23 Jul 12 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,Banjiman 23 Jul 12 - 12:58 PM
The Sandman 23 Jul 12 - 01:10 PM
Vic Smith 23 Jul 12 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,Banjman 23 Jul 12 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 23 Jul 12 - 01:56 PM
The Sandman 23 Jul 12 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 23 Jul 12 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,Darlodave 24 Jul 12 - 02:35 AM
Will Fly 24 Jul 12 - 04:20 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 24 Jul 12 - 04:38 AM
johncharles 24 Jul 12 - 04:48 AM
The Sandman 24 Jul 12 - 05:49 AM
matt milton 24 Jul 12 - 06:12 AM
matt milton 24 Jul 12 - 06:22 AM
johncharles 24 Jul 12 - 06:23 AM
matt milton 24 Jul 12 - 06:41 AM
matt milton 24 Jul 12 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 24 Jul 12 - 06:58 AM
matt milton 24 Jul 12 - 07:12 AM
matt milton 24 Jul 12 - 07:24 AM
johncharles 24 Jul 12 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 24 Jul 12 - 08:24 AM
matt milton 24 Jul 12 - 08:28 AM
matt milton 24 Jul 12 - 08:38 AM
johncharles 24 Jul 12 - 09:04 AM
The Sandman 24 Jul 12 - 12:39 PM
johncharles 24 Jul 12 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Banjiman 24 Jul 12 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 24 Jul 12 - 01:23 PM
Vic Smith 24 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM
The Sandman 24 Jul 12 - 06:35 PM
johncharles 24 Jul 12 - 06:55 PM
johncharles 24 Jul 12 - 06:57 PM
Bugsy 24 Jul 12 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 25 Jul 12 - 04:42 AM
Continuity Jones 25 Jul 12 - 04:59 AM
johncharles 25 Jul 12 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 25 Jul 12 - 06:08 AM
The Sandman 25 Jul 12 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 25 Jul 12 - 10:00 AM
Ron Cheevers 25 Jul 12 - 10:37 AM
The Sandman 25 Jul 12 - 10:55 AM
The Sandman 25 Jul 12 - 11:03 AM
johncharles 25 Jul 12 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 25 Jul 12 - 11:12 AM
johncharles 25 Jul 12 - 11:16 AM
johncharles 25 Jul 12 - 11:25 AM
The Sandman 25 Jul 12 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 25 Jul 12 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 25 Jul 12 - 11:43 AM
Vic Smith 25 Jul 12 - 12:04 PM
Spleen Cringe 25 Jul 12 - 12:05 PM
johncharles 25 Jul 12 - 01:00 PM
The Sandman 25 Jul 12 - 01:14 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 25 Jul 12 - 02:17 PM
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Subject: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 01:24 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnICYw1_2fc&feature=youtu.be


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 03:29 PM

That's pretty good, Dick. (Had to be careful with the punctuation there).

Did you consider doing a verse where a leopard came, perhaps escaped from a zoo and took a lamb? It could lead you into a whole new part of the song - where the shepherd goes to the zoo to let his anger be known to the zoo keeper and is trampled by an elephant? Or charged by a rhino, perhaps. Less obvious, more enthralling for the listener.

A good song though, even without the leopard / rhino coda.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Uncle Jaque
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:09 AM

That's quite nice IMHO.

Sounds like Dick knows what he's singing about. Is he from Scotland?

Reminds me a little of the old hymn "The Ninety and Nine".


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 04:56 PM

Very fine song. Well done Dick. It has slight echoes of My Grandfather Knew The Plough, but not a copy by any chalk.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:00 AM

thankyou,Diane


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:55 AM

Lovely stuff, Dick - but all your own words? I'd say 'Parrock & twin and cheat with a skin' are the line is borrowed wholesale from The Shepherd's Song from the singing of the late great Willie Scott. Credit where credit's due I say!

Actually, I had a crack at this myself recently:

http://soundcloud.com/sedayne-fiddlesangs/the-shepherds-song-9-3-12

We've got a good wee deal going on this down at our folk club where as well as other singers the chorus is joined by melodeon, hurdy gurdy, second fiddle, concertina (and even Mudcat's own LesB on guitar on Friday neet gone). I must record that one night...

I find it amazing that 3 of my all-time favourite songs share the title of The Shepherd's Song - the Willie Scott song, and those by the Strawbs and Amazing Blondel, not that I sing the latter, I've loved 'em since I was a wee boy and listen to them not to commune with the innocence o' auld times.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 05:35 AM

I'm sorry, I'll say that again...

I'd say the line 'Parrock & twin and cheat with a skin' is borrowed wholesale from The Shepherd's Song [...as sung by...] Willie Scott.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 11:54 AM

it is a fine line; there is a definite shortage of songs which include parrock.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Speedwell
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 01:24 PM

I really like the song Dick.
We sometimes sing "When sheep shearing's done" which has the same tune but doesn't seem to get much of an airing.Thanx for putting it on youtube.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 01:56 PM

jesus christ,
how petty and nitpicking can you get, do you think REALLY think wille scott would care that i used the word parrock, has he got some copyright on this one word
there is no similarity between the songs other than they describe the life of a shepherd.
if you dont like it, change it to cheat, fake and twin., BUT STOP WASTING YOUR TIME on picking nits.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 02:25 PM

I recorded our sheepsherings done back in the late 80s, Richard Grainger sang a bass harmony, i think it is a fine tune, but never felt the words were very convincing.
I think the new set of words are an improvement, I am glad you like them Speedwell.
I have never had a problem using existing trad tunes, after all some of the greatest songwriters[ MacColl and Bellamy and Dylan] have done it, what is good enough for Ewan and Peter and Bobbie dee is good enough for me .


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 03:10 PM

parrock = one word
I can parrock, I can twin, Aye, an can cheat them wi' a skin = a sentence.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:22 PM

John Charles,as i said if you dont like it change it to, we must cheat and twin and fake them with a skin., it is describing how to do a certain task in a shepherds job., or do you object to me using cheat and twin and fake them with a skin, if you do you nit pick off


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:35 PM

I don't think it matters a jot if you borrowed a line. What did wild Oscar say? Talent works and genius steal? Something like that. Dylan stole half songs, Paul Simon, Madonna - they're all it, Dick. It's a nodding tribute to that song - like the bass line in Dub Be Good To Me. A tribute to Guns o' Brixton. It's an old line in a new song and works well in it's new place. Don't worry though, it's still in it's old place too. Like a whore, who can sell their goods and then still have them goods to sell to the next man.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:43 PM

or if you like, john charles,how about cheat and fake and fool them with a skin
people like u and guest blind diva manage to illustrate how enthusiasts turn into anoraks


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:49 PM

I'm not nitpicking, Dick - just pointing out the obvious fact that you plagiarised a line wholesale from another song. I'm not judging you for doing it, just pointing out that you did it, unless it's by some uncanny coincidence, or else some other more occult mechanism of the folk process. Chanelling perhaps? In the video you call for respect for your authorship of the piece, but you didn't mention you'd nicked a line of various Border diacted shepherding terms to give your own a tinge of the authentic. As Uncle Jaque said above Sounds like Dick knows what he's singing about.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 05:19 PM

if you dont like it sing the alternatives i suggested, in the meantime stop wasting time with this carping crap.
incidentally in my opinion your slowing down of willie scotts version of the other song is not an improvement, the way willie sings it has life and swing


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 06:00 PM

Again, Dick - credit where credit is due. I'm not criticising you - just pointing something out that you didn't see fit to mention. As I said in my post, lovely stuff, Dick.

My singing goes and in hand with my fiddling & asthma. Willie Scott is the master - I'm certainly not trying to improve on him - and I always give credit to the source.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 06:15 PM

Blandiver, as I understood from someone else on this forum,[was it vic smith] the song was traditional,and not written by willie scott.so why should I give willie scott credit.
stop being a pillock,any singer is free to sing the line of the song in the different ways i have suggested., it is a song wriiten in a tradtional style which I have put up on you tube, if people wish to learn it, YOU MAY BE INTERESTED TO KNOW I have not registerd it with prs, so its not as if i am claiming royalties for it, people like you make me sick, i put something up on you tube with no intention of financial gain, and anoraks like youself come along with this nit picking shit.
. I too, always credit my sources, I also mentioned the tune was traditional, although i am under no obligation to do so, and was under the impression that the the song was traditional
I am not interested you or in your asthma


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 06:27 PM

Calm down dear it is only a song!


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 06:46 PM

p.s. "blind diva" ?typographical error. It should be Blandiver.
Off to get my anorak.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 04:31 AM

yes, go and do some train spotting.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 04:59 AM

and was under the impression that the the song was traditional

Does that mean we can plagiarise it willy-nilly without even crediting the fact that we've done so? I think not. Much less credit the fact Willie Scott remains the source of the song? In Herd Laddie of the Glen (2006), Geordie McIntyre says the song comes via Willie's brother Tom from the singing of John Irvine of Irthingshire, which is backed up by Maurice Lindsay in the notes to Willie Scott's The Shepherd's Song (1968) album on Topic. McIntyre also rightly points out that it was Willie Scott's signature tune, reflecting half a century of shepherding experience.

Traditional Songs are full of the muck of the genuine experience of people who made & sang them; Folk Songs are the romantic dreamings of Folkies yearning after the unsayable & unwritable for the best of reasons. No harm in that, like I say (without wishing to incur your further outrage), Lovely stuff, Dick. Just credit please where credit is due, as you've so often said yourself.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:12 AM

listen mate, the words have been changed now, to cheat fake and fool with their skin , which owes nothing to the other song but describes a shepherds job, now i suggest you go off and do some anoraking.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:26 AM

or even better is, we must graft and switch and scent a new skin to see that the ewe takes the lamb.
here for our two anorak friends is some suggested reading,grafting, a lamb mamnagement saving tool, by a richard cobb.
i hope you two anoraks dont mind me using this authentic source?


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:37 AM

The original line is fine, as I said previously. It may be the best line in the song and should stay. I suppose unless you are trying to make money from it, the issue of crediting anyone is down to one's conscience.
john


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:53 AM

it is a good line in my opinion because you have an internal rhyme twin with a skin, but it could be graft and switch and twin with a skin.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:03 AM

the above has only one word in common, which is hardly plagiarism, or even..
graft and scent and pin a new skin.
here is a description
Orphan lambs can often be found lying in frozen fields left out in the cold overnight and half to death. Unless you intervene your lamb will die. Bring the lamb into your kitchen and if you have a wood stove place it next to this in a cardboard box lined with woolen blankets. If you don't have a wood stove or fire going, place two hot-water bottles in the box with the lamb. Cover the hot-water bottles with towels so as not to burn the lamb. If it revives and shows signs of life, feed it with 120ml of colostrum immediately.

You may have to feed it using a stomach tube, as most lambs in this state don't suck readily. You can get special lamb reviving stomach tubes from some farm or veterinary outlets. If you cannot find a stomach tube, use 600 mm or 3 mm bore plastic tubing. Round the end in a flame and punch a few holes near the end with a leather punch. Hold the lamb's head up so that the neck is straight and gently push the tube down its gullet. Make sure that the tube doesn't end up in the lungs.

Hold up the funnel and fill it with colostrum. If using a plastic tube, a syringe may be easier to feed the lamb with, since a funnel with a neck thin enough may be hard to come by for some.
Raising Lambs: Hand-Rearing Lambs or Fostering Lambs?
Now when you find your lamb you have a dilemma. Are you going to be raising lambs through hand-rearing or are you going to foster the lamb out? Lamb fostering is by far the easiest method for you if a suitable ewe is available to be the surrogate mum, and is willing. However, even when this looks like an easier option, often the ewe won't readily accept the lamb, and then it becomes a battle of will and wits.

If the ewe's own lamb has just died, one can try and fool the ewe by tying the dead lamb's fleece on the orphan lamb until she accepts it. However, this doesn't always work and you will have to look for other devious methods, and other methods that just doesn't give the ewe much of an option! If she has a lamb of her own, having another to feed will not affect the milk production for her own lamb.

One devious method is to try and confuse the smell of the lamb. The ewe is always able to identify her own lamb out of a flock by smelling the lamb's head and rear end. To cause the confusion rub a strong-smelling liquid on the lamb's tail and head such as an antiseptic or even olive oil, and at the same time, also rub it on the ewe's muzzle. Another method, is to rub the foetal fluids of the dead lamb all over the lamb to be fostered, paying particular attention to the head and tail areas, which the ewe will sniff.

Another method is to put the ewe and the lamb together in a fairly dark, restricted area with food and water. Confine them in this area until they have bonded. This should happen over the next 2 days. If not you will then have to restrict the ewe by tying her up in such a way that the lamb has access to the milk and the ewe cannot reject or head-butt or hurt the lamb.
Raising Lambs: Bottle-Feeding your Orphan Lamb


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: C Stuart Cook
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:20 AM

We can all do what must have been common in the past. Half remember/learn the words of a song then do our best to remember it at the appropriate occasion, sometimes getting confused as to what bits really belonged where and filling the rest in with new or borrowed.

We've continued the Folk process and constructed a variant, as was so evidently done with so many songs in the past.

Or we could take the precisely written/recorded and preserve it in aspic.

Ever tasted aspic on it's own?


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:48 AM

We've continued the Folk process and constructed a variant, as was so evidently done with so many songs in the past.

I disagree. There has to be a cut off point between The Old Songs and The New Ones. The former are Traditional Songs born of a Living Tradition - the latter aren't; they are, in effect, fakes made up by Folkies & fakery is not continuing anything.

For sure, you can do what you want, but don't think you're continuing (or contributing to) The Tradition because that's something else entirely.

Folkies write Folk Songs in what they perceive as A Traditional Style. Dick isn't alone in this - we all do it - but this doesn't make them Traditional Songs - rather quaint pastiches of traditional songs that will no doubt appeal to certain Folkies, but which won't carry the same cultural & historical weight as a real Traditiional Song. It's like the Model Railway enthusiast making models - even the most purist railway modeller knows that his authentic layout in the attic isn't real, or continuing any tradition other than railway modelling as a (possible) folk art.

Now there's a thing: Fake folksong making as Folk Art anyone?


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 09:02 AM

well, sunshine, about the only folk songs that appeal to non folk enthusiasts are wild rover,nightingale, and black velvet band ., which could partly be due to lack of exposure to anything else.
   and i do not agree with your assessment as to what is a traditional song and quite frankly[before you get started with one of your quasi diatribes] the only thing that makes me decide to do a song is the merit of the song not what category it fits in to, all this taddle about fakes is irrelevant, what is important is whether the song has merit, there are plenty of crap folk or traditional and plenty of good songs just as there are plenty of crap composed songs and plenty of good composed songs


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 09:36 AM

I don't think that you have quite understood Blandiver's point, Dick. He was trying to distinguish between the songs that have emerged from the tradition (which he would call authentic) and the modern songs that have been written by folk singers for a folk club/singaround audience (which he would call pastiches).

For people like Blandiver (and for myself, actually) the distinction is important - and clearly he wants to keep the two separate.

On the other hand, you make an important point when you say "the only thing that makes me decide to do a song is the merit of the song not what category it fits in to". There is some drivel that has emerged from the tradition and some modern songwriters who are inspired by the tradition have composed some superb songs. I would give Dave Goulder as my example of the best of these.

Of course, new songs must be written; we cannot allow our movement to ossify, but when I hear songs that sound as though they have been written with the market in mind - whether it be for a folk music audience or for a broader music industry audience I, for one, find it a real turn off.

As for quoting a short piece from a traditional song in a modern composition, I think that many people would regard this as a tribute rather than plagiarism.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 10:15 AM

about the only folk songs that appeal to non folk enthusiasts are wild rover,nightingale, and black velvet band ., which could partly be due to lack of exposure to anything else.

In my experience this simply isn't true. Non-Folk audiences have a healthier respect for Traditional Songs that Folk audiences - witness the current Folk Scene, which is mostly Idiomatic Revival MOR Folk with dumbed down guitar accompanied renderings of traditional material for audiences who'd rather listen to that that the real thing - or anything that addresses itself to the real thing. This has been the reality during all my Folk Years, and with but few exceptions it remains the case today.

we cannot allow our movement to ossify

I'm not sure I'm part of any movement as such; in fact, I'm quite sure I'm not. I love Traditional Songs as part of much wider appreciation of Ken Hyder once called Music of Human Interest. Again, with few significant exceptions, the Folk Scene hasn't demonstrated a general worthiness to that legacy, IMHO - but another reason I like to drive the wedge in between Traditional Songs (real) and Folk Songs (fake). In an ideal world Folkies wouldn't touch Traditional Material at all, which would be elevated culturally to the status of National Treasure and valued as such.

I think some damn fine fake Folk Songs have been written - look no further than Peter Bellamy's songs & his Kipling settings; and there are songs from The Tradition that I wouldn't touch with a proverbial barge-pole. But that's hardly the point - even the most ghastly broadside is a product of something very different indeedcto the most perfectly crafted modern song. Same goes for violins I guess - or houses, or anything else.

It's weird because I'm a modernist at heart, just when it comes to Contemporary Musical Idioms I see them in terms of their Living Breathing Tradition - be it hip-hop or free-jazz. Folk, on the other hand, is something very different - it neither lives, nor yet does it breathe, except somewhere out there on the feral fringes of wyrdshire wherein there weaves a special magic in some liminal realm. Nothing like a good old seance, however.   

I think that many people would regard this as a tribute rather than plagiarism.

Okay then - how about a sort of random sampling? I've no doubt Dick's motives are sincere enough; he is a chap noted for his vociferous idealism in respect of fair-play. I've never said he shouldn't sing the line, rather that he should own up to where it comes from. Sourcing is so very important; without the provenance my Great Aunt Persephone's Pizzle (circa 1910) is just a tarnished brass hunting horn with a curiously shaped bell.   

[before you get started with one of your quasi diatribes]

Nothing quasi about my diatribes, Dick - they're the real thing; polemical rants from my throbbing heart because I care about this music.

Now quasi Folk Songs are a different matter entirely...


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 10:58 AM

Folk, on the other hand, is something very different - it neither lives, nor yet does it breathe, except somewhere out there on the feral fringes of wyrdshire wherein there weaves a special magic in some liminal realm.

I'm sure that there is a really interesting idea struggling to get out of this statement and I would really like Blandiver to expand his thoughts on this more fully and more clearly. The statement, "the feral fringes of wyrdshire wherein there weaves a special magic in some liminal realm." sounds fascinating but I am not sure that I understand the implications.

The thing is that I think I agree with Blandiver but I need more clarification.

Has the tradition died? What about those very aware moderns, The Young Coppers, who I know pretty well and like. For you, are their performances "authentic" or does the fact that you would be more likely to see them clubbing than in any folk ot traditional music gathering make them a "pastiche"?


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 11:11 AM

The real question is: is fluffy morris authentic? I suspect it is.

Nice song Dick, by the way!


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 11:14 AM

Folk, on the other hand, is something very different - it neither lives, nor yet does it breathe, except somewhere out there on the feral fringes of wyrdshire wherein there weaves a special magic in some liminal realm.

I just realised that I neither know nor care whether I agree with this (I think I do), but I really like how it sounds. Lovely sentence, Blandiver. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 11:14 AM

As a non-folkie, I'd like to ask one question of the singers of the stuff: Are you a part of what you're singing about?

It doesn't matter a hoot, as far as I'm concerned, whether the answer is 'yes' or 'no', but I suspect that, in most cases where traditional or quasi-traditional songs are being, the answer is 'no'. and, to be awkward, I think the terms "authentic" and "pastiche" are a bit too polarised for me. "Authentic" is, to me the Real Deal - and there are perhaps a very few people out there in the real world who sing these songs as part of the life they actually lead.

I don't know what the Young Coppers (whom I also like very much) do for a living, but my guess is that they don't do what their grandfather and great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather did. When you read "A Song For Every Season" - which I do regularly to remind myself what real the real folk tradition is all about - there's very little of that particular rural life, the life that generated the singing in the fields and in the house and in the pub, left. In that sense, no - the Young Coppers aren't "authentic". But neither are they a "pastiche" - because a pastiche is something which openly imitates an art form, and the YCs certainly aren't doing that either. They're simply making music using material from their own family records.

The only shepherd (retired) I know who makes music and sings (to his accordion) in folk clubs, is dear old Ray Hedges - and he doesn't sing rural songs of the shepherd's life but songs by Cicely Fox-Smith and music-hall songs! I suspect Noel Dumbrell is one who's as authentic as we can get these days.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 11:17 AM

Sorry - my post was addressed particularly to Vic - who may have to put with my "authentic" renditions of a 30s show tune this Thurday evening at the Oak...


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 11:22 AM

Stirrings
Issue 151 - The latest from Stirrings Central

This issue we plunge into the tangled thickets of folk's latest sub-genre, WeirdFolk, with an exclusive interview with singer, musician and storyteller Sedayne, regarded by many WeirdFolkers as the Godfather of the genre.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 11:40 AM

I don't know what the Young Coppers (whom I also like very much) do for a living, but my guess is that they don't do what their grandfather and great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather did.

Ha Ha Ha! I was interviewing the six of them for an article in English Dance & Song and they had been pretty articulate in all their answers and then I asked "So none of you have become publicans of one sort or another like the previous three generations of your family?"
It was like they have been struck dumb! Eventually Ben Copper held up two crossed fingers as if he was trying to ward off an evil spirit!

Actually, four of the six of them work for their own specialist construction doing high quality restoration and building on authentic old houses; none of these pastiche modern buildings for them. They built the house for Jon Dudley & Jill Copper on the site of Bob's old house in Peacehaven and if there's a finer recently built dwelling then I haven't seen it.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 12:13 PM

For you, are their performances "authentic" or does the fact that you would be more likely to see them clubbing than in any folk ot traditional music gathering make them a "pastiche"?

I think we're all post-revival in a very real sense, and I'm not into the implications of 'pure blood-authenticity' which I get when people start talking about folk families. With the old singers it's a different issue (though still complex in terms of a perceived purity) but 'Post Folk' things are very different. I don't think the Young Coppers are any more genuine than any other revival singer, but Folk is a tad prescriptive in this sense; and in anycase I'm wary of nepotism.

As far as The Tradition goes, I'll always have mixed feelings about the sort of thing we're dealing with. The socio-cultural conditions that were the natural habitat of Idiomatic Popular Traditional Song have gone and the songs are exinct as a species. What we do have is the idiom, and the enthusiasm and the passion and the creativity which addresses itself to its 'Heritage' by way of a wider zeitgeist, but that heritage is common to us all, not just those favoured by the accident of birth.

sounds fascinating but I am not sure that I understand the implications.

I first copped Folk in 1972 or 73 when I was eleven. According to my mother, however, my father was singing shanties & folk songs (Gamekeepers Lie Sleeping was one title she remembered; Bell Bottomed Trousers was another) back in the 1950s (he died in 1961) but as far as I can ascertain he knew nothing about the Folk Movement per se, despite being related to the legendary Northumbrian Piper Tom Clough. I think in a lot of regions of the UK (Northumberland & Scotland) such 'traditional' material existed in spite of the revival, or of Folk as a movement. It was just 'there' and I was lucky enough to hear it.

When I got into Folk-Proper I was already primed by exposure to a lot of early music, prog & experimental music (Third Ear Band, Ken Hyder's Talisker) in which the Folk Zeitgeist lived and breathed very differently to the sort of more reticent / reactionary MOR I was hearing in folk clubs. I loved the old singers though - and I loved those singers who seemed to be closest to their spirit (Peter Bellamy, Jim Eldon and more grubby unknown traddy floor singers than I can shake a stick at) which to me was the same as what I heard Lol Coxhill doing, or what I heard The Fall doing a few years later. I never got folk-rock per se (it was too safe & middle-class; with significant exception - i.e. Bright Phoebus which seemed very genuine somehow, esp. the perverted rock-a-belly of Danny Rose) because it never lived up to Folk or Rock somehow; I loved Gentle Giant though, and Yes, in whose ultra-middle-class bombast I detected much by way of Transcendent Visinary Folkery. I was young, easily beguiled, but I still might listen to The Revealing Science of God and wish more folk rock bands had ventured thither.

These days one might listen to (say) Sproatley Smith or Telling the Bees and hear that self-same feral folk zeitgeist that acknowledges on The Tradition, but doesn't seem overly Folky in the sense of easy listening. To me the very last thing Traditional Song is, or should be, is easy listening. I'd love it if Radio Three broadcast field-recordings of our Traditional Singers on the hour every hour - Willie Scott, Sam Larner, Harry Cox, Hockey Feltwell et al - as part of our essential cultural heritage, not just a select specialism of Folk Enthusiasts.

I'm proud to be associated with not just Folk Police, but also Coldspring whose ongoing John Barleycorn Reborn series stands as a vivid testimony to the sort of life this music has in the hearts of people who would ne'er darken the doors of a folk club. Volume 4 of this remarkable series of 2xCD sets is on its way; we've been on all four volumes, which isn't to boast, just stress my commitment to this living feral music which is born of a much wider & more positive vibe that the sort of MOR folk you get in folk clubs which doesn't connect with the outside world. I was talking to proprietor of Action Records in Preston and he says it's not Folkies who buy Folk Police & Coldspring CDs...

*

Forgive me, I'm just rambling here in my downtime before my wife gets in. It's not a manifesto, it's just a belief in musical truth and beauty which connects with the wider world in a way Folk as a truly quasi religion never can. This is fine by me too, it's the way of the world as I've known it since I was a boy - go into some clubs - a lot of clubs - too many clubs - and you feel them bristling at anything that comes in sounding a little bit weird to their ears, and yet in that very weirdness, I insist, is the core of what Traditional Music is; the very antithesis of the small minded MOR that passes for purism these days.

As I posted elsewhere, the feral essense lurks in the difference between Willie Scott's rendering of The Kielder Hunt and Archie Fisher's dumbed down strum-a-long version from 1963 (or whenever) that many now think of as being acceptably traditional. THIS is a recent version I did a few weeks back with live singing & folk-tronica simply way of a personal polemic on the nature of Traditional Song as Uneasy Listening, but also to celebrate this as Music of Human Interest by way of what Sun Ra would call A Joyful Noise. This is music that yearns for the same feral wilderness in which Willie Scott lived, sang & worked for fifty years. Here, Weirdshire is the lost hertitage of the border landscapes celebrated in song as pure poetic resonance - a landscape that's now submerged beneath the midge-infested waters of the Kielder reservoir.

Er - what was the question again???


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 12:18 PM

perverted rock-a-belly

Now there's a music I could groove to!


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 12:23 PM

This issue we plunge into the tangled thickets of folk's latest sub-genre, WeirdFolk, with an exclusive interview with singer, musician and storyteller Sedayne, regarded by many WeirdFolkers as the Godfather of the genre.

Now. There's another thing I don't understand... If I go to http://www.folkpolicerecordings.com/rapunzel--sedayne.html I can listen to Rupunzel & Sedayne performing House Carpenter; I can see a video of them performing one of their own songs, Smuggler.
Question: Are their performance any different in nature from the sort of thing that has been available in folk clubs in the 40-odd years that I've been going to them?
Answer: In no way are they different. They are clearly talented and interesting performers but you could not call them different.
Question: So how come they are suddenly 'Weirdfolk'?
Answer: Well, their art work is a bit strange and some of the statements they make about themselves are a bit non-standard but their music seems pretty straightforward to me. Folk clubs have always attracted slightly odd-ball, slightly eccentric people (present company included) and that has always been one of its strengths.


Maybe it's just me but the people that I really rate in folk clubs are the likes of Tony Hall and Jim Eldon who could not be further away from Blandiver's "MOR Folk with dumbed down guitar accompanied renderings of traditional material".

Jim was at our club at the Royal Oak in Lewes with Lynette last Thursday and he sung "I Wish There Were No Prisons" which I know that he learned from the Sussex traditional singer, George Spicer, though Jim has added a few verses of his own. He followed that with another voice and fiddle number, "Jailhouse Rock", which I think he learned from another traditional singer but I just can't remember his name.

On reflection, I think that it is me that is the weird one; when I read on this thread that Mike (Will Fly) was going to being more of his 1930's songs to our club this Thursday, I thought, "Bloody Great". - Now, you've got to admit, that was pretty weird!


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 12:43 PM

Point of information: The Smugglers' Song is a Peter Bellamy setting of Kipling.

The thing is, I listen to Rapunzel and Sedayne's music, and it reminds me of some of my favourite folk music of the 70s. I mean this in a good way. The recordings, particularly on labels like Leader, often had a raw, immediate quality that you don't always get with contemporary folk abums, which usually have a much more polished, overtly produced sound. I think R&S have that raw quality, which is one of the reasons FPR released 'Barley Temple'. I don't think what they do is 'weird' (and certainly not self consciously weird), but it seems some people do and so they get lumped in with various other people who are also seen as weird. This is ok if we use weird in the Shakespearian sense rather than with the modern day meaning. There again if 'Anthems in Eden' or 'Oak Ash and Thorn' or 'Bright Phoebus' (to name three examples) came out today, I suspect they would be seen as quite radical and leftfield albums.

Jim Eldon, meanwhile, is a national treasure, and one who no-one could accuse of being in anyway bland or middle of the road in his approach. I wish he was more of a direct influence on the current generation of young folkies than he is. Likewise, plenty of 'em cite Bellamy as an influence but I actually HEAR that influence in very few.

Getting back to the original subject of this thread, I had the pleasure of seeing Dick Miles at Swinton Folk Club a few years back and was impressed by his performance. Again, you couldn't call him middle of the road!


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 12:45 PM

PS: if you ask Sedayne, he'll tell you that Rapunzel & Sedayne are completely misunderstood and they're actually a husband and wife folk 'n' fun duo...


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 12:51 PM

weird folk, sounds like someone is attempting to be different for the sake of it., now if sedayne had been attempting to play very modern classical music such as Sam Richards plays and combine it with with trad music, now that would be weird, but he is not, he is calling himself weird but playing in a fairly conventional uk folk style.
i think sedayne i trying to create a weird image without it being truly weird, might i suggestan image makeover a suit with bowler hat, shave off hair till he jhas a mohican, with the suit wear no socks, a robin day type bow tie, over the suit put on a kilt, and then start experimenting with atonal music, that would be truly weird


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 12:57 PM

oh yes
will fly, i do keep a few sheep though i dont really consider myself a shepherd, however i did spend a bit of my life working on farms... I was a stockman, so i do consider it something i have an empathy with, of course that was in the days that i had a proper job., before i was a newsagent


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 12:58 PM

I like what Rapunzel & Sedayne do...... and Dick I like your song. None of this is especially radical though (even if Sean's voice is occasionally slightly other worldly). It's all good clean folky fun.

I'm going to be deeply untrendy and say I don't "get" Jim Eldon. I guess that just makes me a bad person.

and Weirdlore/ Weirdfolk..... a brave attempt to start a marketing led popular folk movement maybe? Nothing wrong with that but lets not pretend its something it's not.

I just felt the need to contribute and keep Dick's thread near the top!


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 01:10 PM

well banjiman ,it is not compulsory that we all like the same things, some people like to have the wilsons in bed, i cant say it appeals to me , i wouldrather have them buying me a pint , and they owe me a few


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 01:11 PM

Point of information: The Smugglers' Song is a Peter Bellamy setting of Kipling.
Thanks for this, Nigel, I suppose I knew that really. I am guilty of listening to the style rather than the content of the performance on the one time I watched that video.

And re-reading, just now, the sixth post in this thread and reading:-
Actually, I had a crack at this myself recently:
the penny dropped that GUEST,Blandiver and Sedayne are one and the same person - all too much for me who has always been plain old Vic Smith. However, it did make me listen to that Soundcloud link and in it I could hear something of the essence of that much revered way that Willie Scott had with the song.

I took quite a number of photos of Willie, both in Scotland, at Whitby Festival and on the occasions when he came down to the folk clubs that we ran in Sussex - both on his own and with Ray Fisher. I never realised that I was in one with Willie until I saw this photo of us in Blairgowrie emailed to me a few days ago - just 42 years after it was taken.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Banjman
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 01:30 PM

It would have to be a bloody big bed Dick!


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 01:56 PM

Amazing pic, Vic!

Yeah, what we do as Rapunzel & Sedayne is normal folk, though we do have our moments when we darken things a bit. Have a brouse on our Soundcloud page:

http://soundcloud.com/rapunzel-and-sedayne

Maybe things like Bird, or Heffle Cuckoo Song, but Weirdlore isn't Weird in any sense of being deliberately outrageous; like Spleen says we're an average folk 'n' fun husband & wife duo with a great reverance for The Tradition. That's what I mean by the feral zeitgeist I suppose - and Music of Human Interest. I'm sorry for keep banging on about Lol Coxhill but there's a guy I used to watch freely improvising on his soprano saxophone for hours and it wasn't weird in the slightest, yet to many here they wouldn't even hear it as being music. 'Just a bloody noise!'

And heaven knows I'm not the Godfather of anything, just I've been doing it since 1975 (when we had The Secretmoon Band) and it's a proud continuity that's touched upon Folk, Experimental (you want weird? I was a member of both Metgumbnerbone and Masstishaddhu whose place in the weirdness stakes is assured for all time, but please note I wasn't involved in the graveyard scandall of 1984; 5LP Box set out soon!) as well as Medieval things and this continues today with what I with Rachel as Rapunzel & Sedayne whose Barley Temple CD got us some nice press. I must add Barley Temple was a sincere attempt at A Very Ordinary Folk Album - which is, I insist, exactly what it is.

*

I'm going to be deeply untrendy and say I don't "get" Jim Eldon. I guess that just makes me a bad person.

Paul - if you never listen to another word I say ever again, I beg you, book Jim & Lynette Eldon at KFFC; they will transform your life and give you a guaranteed perfect night for all. We are talking National Treasures here; cherish them. They are unique; they are quite simoply what Folk Music is all about. Don't just take my word for it - ask Vic - as Raymond Greenoaken - ask Paul Davenport...


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 05:29 PM

authenticity in folk music is elusive, its all folk music i never heard a horse sing it, louis armstrong said.
Blandiver, as you said you are not a god father of anything, neither am I, AND IVE BEEN DOING IT SINCE 1968,
can I ask you politely to stop trying to convert every one to your personal taste, if Banjiman does not like Jim Eldon, so what,do you like everything Banjiman likes in music, probably not?
you achieve nothing by going over the top by expecting everybody to like that which you like,live and let live


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 05:37 PM

I dunno, Dick. If I'm enthusiastic about something I tend to want to share...


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Darlodave
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 02:35 AM

Dick
Ignore all these nitpickers, I and others enjoy your songs and gigs.
You do what these others don't do, that is sit and write songs with tunes for enjoyment for yourself and others. Keep up the good work.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:20 AM

If we, as performers put our work in front of the public, either in live performance or as a recording, then being commented on - whether favourably or unfavourably - is par the course. We always hope for nice comments and applause, but we also have to deal with critical comments or queries. As it happens, there's not been a single adverse comment on Dick's song here, merely a query as to the attribution of one line in it. I wouldn't call that nitpicking, and the song as a whole has rightly had much praise.

However, given the fact that what we do is up for grabs as far as comment is concerned, then we occasionally have to deal with the questioning or the sheer uncomplimentary. You can, for example: ignore it completely; digest it and act/not act on it as you feel fit; fly into a rage; etc. I have a number of videos on YouTube and, happily, most of the comments are very positive and a pleasure to receive - but not all. My own strategy is to separate out the 'artistic/musical' comments from the 'personal' so, if someone writes, "Your beard sucks", then I delete it on the grounds of the writer's superficiality. However, I always read comments on the music carefully and, if I think the adverse comment has some reason in it, then I'll respond appropriately - but also in a reasoned way.

Some comments turn out to be a matter of personal taste, or annoyance that I've 'mucked about' with their pet and treasured version of a tune. My response to that is often, "I get you - so move on to something else." But now and then there's a valuable nugget of advice that's worth reading and assimilating. For example, I posted a version of "Sweet Lorraine" ages ago - done rather hurriedly and without much thought (in retrospect) - and someone commented along the lines of "Good try, but you should play the melody in the middle eight correctly." The comment, as it happens, was spot on - note to self to pull the video and re-do it - correctly.

That's the beauty and the horror of YouTube and of live performance in general - you never can tell. But, in the end, if you don't ever want, or can't ever deal with, any adverse comments, then the only answer is not to perform.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:38 AM

you achieve nothing by going over the top by expecting everybody to like that which you like,live and let live

Sorry if it came across that way, Dick - I think I must have a missionary thing going on, either that a desire to see an artist of the calibre of Jim Eldon (not for nothing do I call him a National Treasure) given the credit he deserves, especially by those who are in the position to do so (like Paul at KFFC), even if they personally don't get him. There're a lot of things I don't get myself, but nevertheless recognise their vital importance in the wider cultural landscape of folk.

*

Ignore all these nitpickers, I and others enjoy your songs and gigs.

There was nothing by way of nitpicking in pointing out that Dick had used a line from a traditional song in one of his own. I'm a great believer in the neo-craft of Folk Song writing - I work regularly with Ron Baxter who has an especial skill in this respect and have occasionally been moved to do it myself (we recently did one on the subject of Werewolves simply because there was nothing in the tradition that answered our requirements) and feel there is much to be understood about the nature of Traditional Song by looking at the written Folk Songs of the revival, especially those by people such as Dick Miles and Ron Baxter whose relationship with Traditional Song is so deeply established as to be second nature. Both are keen & canny craftsmen.

I reckon (maybe) Dick used the line subsconsciously anyway, by way of some inner creative dreaming. Not being a songwriter I don't know how that works, but I do know the visionary realms I might enter into just by learning a Traditional Song, so maybe it's something similar?? As a writer, storyteller & creative musician, I do believe that Traditional Process is as much about the individual as the collective. We inherited the means by which we are creative - the nouns, the verbs, the adjectives, the phonetics, the syntax, the structures, the instruments, the modality, the technology etc. - all these things are already there for us to work with, as are the conventions which shape the work into its final form. Out of such raw materials we whittle our treen, fashion our pots, knot our macrame owls and weave our baskets.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:48 AM

I do not particularly like the song and think that the best line in it is the disputed one. I doubt it will stand the test of time.
There I have said it, and now I fully expect to get criticised.
Posting any sort of criticism of a song on what is essentially a community of friends who support each other is always problematic.
Reviews from strangers on youtube or perhaps even better from experienced music reviewers is the best way to get realistic constructive feedback. Other measures are things such as other people singing/recording the song and audience feedback.
john


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 05:49 AM

john charles, that is ok, not everyone likes the same thing, whether it stands the test of time is not important either, it is an unanswered question anyway, if i like it i will sing it and see what is the audience response, in my ooinion it is an improvement on our sheepshearings done, and i intend to try it out.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:12 AM

um, unless Dick has subsequently changed what was written beneath that youTube clip, I'm reading:

"song written by dick miles using a traditional tune"

So nothing about "every single word written by Dick Miles".

I think Dick is entitled to point out that this is nit-picking.

After all, Gillian Welch writes original songs that frequently feature lines from traditional folk songs. Used entirely deliberately and self-consciously. As does Alasdair Roberts. That doesn't stop them asserting authorship and indeed copyright claims.

God knows I disagree (vehemently!) with many the things our Mr Miles says, but in this case I can't help but think people are indeed picking nits.

again ,writing

"song written by dick miles using a traditional tune"

is a completely different thing to writing

"song in which every syllable is the sole and unique invention/property of Dick Miles". or indeed "all my own words".


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:22 AM

Nobody else put those words, those lines, in that order. Nobody else set them to that tune. Dick Miles wrote that song.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:23 AM

At the end of the video Dick says people can sing the song but "please credit me with the words"
I am sure someone with a deeper understanding of the law than I have will be able to pronounce on this.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:41 AM

oh, OK, well, whatever - people either will or people won't. Just like they sometimes do and sometimes don't anounce what a song is called/who it is by when they perform other songs by other people (or by Trad/Anon) at the millions of open mics and folk clubs and busking spots all over the world, every night of the week.

Seems like splitting hairs nonetheless. From either a copyright or an artistic point of view, a mountain is being made of a molehill.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:52 AM

"I am sure someone with a deeper understanding of the law than I have will be able to pronounce on this."

from a legal perspective, there's no issue whatsoever: a line that has three words in common with a traditional song is neither here nor there.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:58 AM

I thought we'd done with this? Now the nitpicking begins in earnest! Still - anything that keeps this thread buoyant & gets people listening to Dick Miles can't be that bad, eh??

Anyhoo - I think it's important to acknowledge sources; even hip-hop artists do this (proudly) with their samples, though I'm sure a fair few Crimso heads were suitably outraged by Kanye West's Power, just as said Crimso heads would have outnumbered by the millions who loved Power who'd never even heard of King Crimson. Like my neighbour - I played him the original one day and it terrified the living daylights out of him (terrifies me too actually and I've grown up with it...).

So. Whilst such borrowing doesn't change the original, and says nothing about the quality of either, and may in fact (as Vic suggest) be more of an open tribute than plagiarism as such, I feel it pays respect to the canon. This is all the more essential in folk where someone hearing Dick's song might not even be aware of Willie Scott or the Shepherd's Song, in which case they might like to go out and enrich their lives by finding out. Like my neighbour kistening to KC for the first time, the original will blow their mind, The Traditional / Revival dichotomy makes such transparency even more important; and it's not a matter of nit-picking to point this out.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:12 AM

I've written a song that features the line "meet me at the bottom/bring me my blue suede shoes". This is a mishearing of a line sung by Archie Edwards. (Which I know from his Blues'N Bones album; one of the best blues recordings ever made.)

Now, "meet me at the bottom" is a line that crops up in numerous country blues songs. It's a bit of a floater line. It's an instruction, I think, to meet at the bottom of a field (ie where black workers were working on a plantation) and is usually followed by "bring me my boots and shoes" (which is what Archie Edwards actually sings, though there are a few variants on this line in the various songs that feature it).

If I were to ever record this song and feature it on Bandcamp or on CD, I suppose I might conceivably have my name in brackets on the liner notes, or possibly assert copyright for the song, if there was any suggestion it might get played on the radio or anything. (Not very likely, but hypothetically speaking...)

It wouldn't occur to me to issue an instruction "please credit me with the words", for the simple reason that I am an amateur music-maker and I can't flatter myself that tons of people are going to be singing my song!

But there's an implicit "please credit me with the words" every time a musician sticks their name in brackets after a song title, or collects PRS from a song. Any criticisms anyone is making of Dick in this thread, they also need to be making of Gillian Welch and/or Alasdair Roberts, both of whom routinely drop traditional lines into their original songs.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:24 AM

"This is all the more essential in folk where someone hearing Dick's song might not even be aware of Willie Scott or the Shepherd's Song, in which case they might like to go out and enrich their lives by finding out."

Well, you're assuming that that particular song by Willie Scott is the only way Dick could conceivably have heard those words. And that there aren't other singers singing those words that Dick (or anyone else) might have picked them up from. Now you might well be right, but we're talking principles here, so it's irrelevant.

I love Willie Scott's singing too, but I think there's some confusion going on here between the fan's enthusiasm for introducing people to his recorded legacy and some sort of prescriptive moral onus on telling people where the song comes from wherever there's time.

I rather like that folkie thing of "I got this song from..." but it's optional as far as I'm concerned. Actually, if I were forced to preface every song that way, I'd be obliged to say things like "I got this song from singer X, though I think their singing is awful, and I really can't recommend listening to their version: but the words are great".


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:08 AM

borrowing ideas and lines is I am sure a constant headache for songwriters.
Only this morning, having made a promising start on my song: The Italian Shepherd I was to be frustrated when a friend pointed out that the first line
"Friends,Romans, Countrymen lend me your shears"
bore a passing resemblance to the words of some historic scribbler.
Ah me! back to the writing desk.
john


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:24 AM

you're assuming that that particular song by Willie Scott is the only way Dick could conceivably have heard those words.

I am, because it is; that's the principle here which, I feel, is very relevant indeed.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:28 AM

I went to an enjoyable singaround/open mic in an Edinburgh pub a few months ago. What if I had heard that song sung by a floorsinger whose name I didn't catch?

Or alternatively, what if I had heard that song sung by a floorsinger whose album I bought, who I then credited in a version I later sung, which was listened to online by someone who subsequently went and listened to that floorsinger's album, decided they hated it so much that they never wanted to listen to folk music again. Swings and roundabouts.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:38 AM

I give a reductio ad absurdum example, because i think there is something a little absurd about placing too much of a moral burden on crediting one's sources.

Which, let's remind ourselves, are in this case, two or three re-contextualised words: an instance of "plagiarism" so minor even those bringing it up aren't quite sure whether it constitutes a quotation or not. Mountains aout of molehills.

Sticking to matters of animal husbandry, it's a bit like saying, were I to use the term "wethers" in a song, I should be morally obliged to point out that the word (referring to castrated male goats or sheep) is also used in the folksong "When I was a Little Boy". And then provide a list of recommended recordings.

I might feel like doing just that. Or I might prefer to learn a new song, change my guitar strings, or do the washing up instead.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:04 AM

despite the apparent frivolousness of my previous comment it does contain a serious point
"Friends romans countrymen lend me your shears" has to be credited because it is so widely known
"I can parrock, I can twin, Aye, an can cheat them wi' a skin" is unlikely to be widely known and the temptation not to credit authorship rises.
Before the growth of the internet many similar examples of plagiarism went unnoticed. Nowadays a quick google search using the line in question produces the following
mudcat.org: Lyr Add: The Shepherd's Song (Willie Scott)
www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=143994&messages...Share

6 posts - 3 authors - 22 Mar
I can lamb the yowes wi ony o them a; I can parrock, I can twin, aye, an cheat them wi a skin, But I wish the cauld east winds would never blaw.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 12:39 PM

I would like to thank everyone for their comments


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 01:00 PM

68 views in 4 days on youtube looks pretty good
john


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 01:08 PM

See what a minor row on Mudcat can do for your viewing figures!


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 01:23 PM

A row implies least some bad feeling, of which, I trust, there isn't any here. But then again making a row is having a jolly good time, usually musical...


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM

See what a minor row on Mudcat can do....

Pretty civilised by Mudcat standards. Dick goes over the top too quickly and then calms down.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:35 PM

Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:55 PM

Ni le mal tout ça m'est bien égal


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:57 PM

I just love the way she sings the above line


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Bugsy
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:40 PM

Having followed this thread from the beginning, I'm losing the will to live.

There's a saying that goes something like, "There's nothing new except what's been forgotten"

I wouldn't be surprised if every line of this or most other songs haven't been written before by someone at sometime.

Get a life.

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:42 AM

Hmmm. I think you're missing the spirit of this thread, Bugsy.

Seeing as Wille Scott's Shepherd's Song has been such an important feature of my life (especially these last few months) I couldn't not point out the source of the line. I never once said he shouldn't sing it, just that he should credit the source. This is integral to the Folk Gene by the way: it seeks, it sources, it delights, it celebrates, and breathes life from the muck, rust, stour & patina that is the minutiae of provenance by way of genuine spiritual renewal and enrichment. It's all very well saying There's nothing new except what's been forgotten, but surely Folk is all about the remembering, the cherishing, and making sure nothing is ever forgotten? Thus the Devil will always dwell in The Details...

Now, I think I'd like to hear Dick singing The Shepherd's Song as sung by Willie Scott - or the Amazing Bondel, or the Strawbs - I'm sure any one of these would do, or even all three...


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:59 AM

I think I'd like to hear Dick singing...

Now we're talking. I'd love to hear Dick singing A Pair Of Brown Eyes, or perhaps more adventurously, Back To Black.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 05:35 AM

Blandiver,
Off topic but personal messaging to you is not available. Just been listening to fiddlesangs on sound cloud. Some amazing stuff. Your version of the Twa Corbies is great, makes my singing sound very pedestrian; still I will keep trying.
Do you sing anywhere on a regular basis I would like to catch you singing live,as that is what it is really about.
john


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:08 AM

Cheers, John. Rachel & I are resident at The Moorbrook in Preston on Friday neets (open song & music session with Tom Walsh, Neil Brook, Hugh O'Donnell, Ross Campbell, Vicky Lewis with occasional visits from Martin Ellison & LesB). Otherwise as Rapunzel & Sedayne we've a few things coming up (Fylde, London, Mosely) but can't really do too much else on account of we've only got 9 days holiday left before April.

If you want to PM me, my old moniker of Suibhne O'Piobaireachd is still active until Joe Offer does me to good grace of changing it to Jack Blandiver as I requested several weeks ago. Signing in here is always a pain on my laptop which resists such conveniences as keeping me logged in, hence my Guest status here. Otherwise good old fashioned email does just fine : sean@sedayne.co.uk


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 08:15 AM

sorry to interrupt the mutual admiration society, but i do not think using shepherding terms, parrock cheat and twin constitutes plagiarism, they appear to be commonly used terms by scottish shepherds, however if anyone wishes to sing the song, and use different shepherding terms such as graft and switch[steal] and scent[pi a new skin, you have my permission to do so.
may i remind everyone of the old saying when principle comes in the door common sense goes out the window


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:00 AM

Oh come on, Dick - own up already, eh? I know they're common terms* but that particular line is filched, albeit, I'm sure, for the best of creative reasons and by way of the most noble of artistic motives etc. etc. but filched nevertheless, you old rogue you. In the video you ask for credit; so I'm urging you to give credit where credit's most surely due. Apart from anything such part-provenance makes the song more interesting & demonstrates the erudition & authority of its author, if not on shepherding, then on Traditional Song.

* Actually I don't, I have precious little shepherding experience & know them only from the Willie Scott song, though I once was in a band called Yan Tan Tethera (actually a duo of myself & renowned Viking expert / author / storyteller / singer / historian Thor Ewing) though I don't recall any of our repertoir having anything to do with sheep - it was just a nice - er - folky name.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Ron Cheevers
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:37 AM

Watched the video, and I can't understand what all the fuss is about


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:55 AM

Filched,you are overstepping the mark, and getting a trifle impertinent
if.. i had used the line,
I can parrock, I can twin, aye, an cheat them wi a skin,
however i do not, i use the words, we must parrock and cheat and twin with their skin, that is sufficiently different, i am using shepherding terms but it is worded differently,
i challenge you to take me to court, if you dont i must respectfully ask you to desist and in the words of a song, The piper and his bellows, go home and blow the fire, if you havent got the testicles to take it to court, i suggest like the piper you go home and blow the fire


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:03 AM

would you accuse me of filching a line if i had used a floating verse, "if, i had wings like noahs dove id go home to the one i love", this line occurs in Tawneys grey funnel line,The finest ship that sails the sea
Is still a prison for the likes of me
But give me wings like Noah's dove
I'll fly up harbor to the one I love
had previously occurred in a song called dinks song
did you ever call Cyril a plagiarist, i bet you didnt
here is dinks song(B.Gibson/B.Lomax/J.Lomax)
This is a blues traditional that has been performed also by Bob Dylan.
If i had wings like noah's dove
I'd fly up the river to the one i love


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:07 AM

In the interest of accuracy what you actually sing is
"we must parrock and twin and cheat with their skin"
This preserves the internal rhyme giving the line its strength.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:12 AM

and getting a trifle impertinent

Sorry - just entering into the irreverent spirit of the thread. Yesterday you called me both a pillock and an anorack.

Otherwise, like I say, I would only enter into something like this when in concerns something I have an especial interest in.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:16 AM

p.s."we must parrock and cheat and twin with their skin"
this ordering of the words makes no sense


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:25 AM

Crediting work is an important principle. however,an increasingly acrimonious discussion about a mediocre song seems pointless.
Perhaps we should call the thread a dead Parrock; deceased, shuffled off this mortal coil.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:28 AM

but you have not answerd the question,DID YOU CONFRONT CYRIL AND ACCUSE HIM OF BEING A PLAGIARIST?
oh and thankyou JC,You are excellent at picking out every tiny detail, in case i am accused of something else ,as JC says i sang, we must parrock and cheat and twin with their skin


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:29 AM

an especial interest in

i.e. Dick Miles' youtube videos - which I always look at & delight in whenever he posts links here - and The Shepherd's Song from the singing of Willie Scott - which I've lived with for the last 30 years but only recently felt moved to learn it & sing it myself. Like I say, Dick - you've made a fine song - all I'm doing is pointing that there's no way that line isn't a direct borrowing from The Shepherd's Song. Nothing you (or anyone else) has said here has convinced me otherwise, nor, indeed, that this is a petty issue, for all the reasons I've stated thus far.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:43 AM

I've got no interest in Cyril Tawney; I may join in the choruses with good cheer in singarounds (Ian McCulloch of Durham sings a splendid Oggie Man and I extemporised a fiddle accompaniment when of my Moorbrook Chums sang Sally F&E the other night) but otherwise they don't figure much in my paticular neck o' the Folk Woods (he says, thus summoning up Kiplingesque visions of night air cooling & badgers rolling at their ease etc. which is pretty much how I think of Folk to be honest; pure bucolia. If I want reality, there are far more exciting, and relevant, ways of getting it. I dare say this is why I find Dick's stuff so agreeable).


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:04 PM

johncharles wrote:-
"Perhaps we should call the thread a dead Parrock"


Maybe we should.... after all, one of the songs at the centre of the centre of this thread does not seem like an example of Norwegian Blues to me.
Let's look at one of the lines that has already been quoted:-
"But I wish the cauld east winds would never blaw."
Does that sound like pining for the fjords to you?

EXPLANATION Anyone who has no idea what Mr. Charles and Mr. Smith are on about needs to watch this video


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:05 PM

I can parrock, I can twin and cheat them with a skin,
I can write a lovely song with these words all used therein.
What would the answer be if we could ask old Willie Scott,
I think he'd say the whole affair's a storm in a teapot.
Or would he? Is a teapot in the average shepherd's kit?
(I'll check it out on Google and I'll tell you in a bit).
The answer is a gig where both Sedayne and Dick appear
Where they can work the whole thing out over crisps and beer.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 01:00 PM

To be sung to the tune of Jock stewart

I can parrock, and twin and cheat with a skin,
I can write a great song with all these words in.
what would willie Scott say were he here today
Och noo wheer is the plagiarising

Oh they're easy and free wi ma words dee yi see
wi parrock and cheat and wi skin
its no the words that belong tae me
but the order that I put them in
With fulsome credit to Spleen Cringe for the original Idea and willie Scott for a good line
john


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 01:14 PM

and you beat leadfingers to a 100, so we all lived happily ever after


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 02:17 PM

Mony hoots tae the lot o' ye! Whit braw lads ye are ane an' a'!


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 03:22 PM

Beam me up Scotty, and GreatScott,but.... they are not Scotts' words


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 03:32 PM

Jings! Crivvens! Help ma' kilt! Whit's that yer sayin', Dick? Nae Scots words? I'll lay ye fower spurtles and a muckle mealy puddin' tae yer tiddly-widdly tattie bogle that they are...

Sedayne Art, circa 1990 (with apologies to Dudley D. Watkins


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 03:34 PM

Sedayne Art etc.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Bugsy
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:45 AM

Now THAT must be an Olympic Gold Medal Contender for "THREAD CREEP"


CHeers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:43 AM

That crap has been making the rounds since 2006.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 07:54 AM

NB: Both Bugsy and I are referring to a spam post that has been removed.


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Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 05:30 PM

The song has been ditched.


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