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Subject: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 08:31 AM Here we go again... 12 dead and 50 wounded in theater shooting, Aurora, Colorado... B:~( |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Beer Date: 20 Jul 12 - 08:32 AM It will never end. Adrien |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Leadfingers Date: 20 Jul 12 - 08:34 AM Now we wait for the NRA to come out with their usual Crap ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: saulgoldie Date: 20 Jul 12 - 08:48 AM And gun sales will skyrocket. And the beat goes on, and on, and on... Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: number 6 Date: 20 Jul 12 - 09:19 AM Last Saturday here in my town Saint John, in fact just around the corner from where I live a nut wacked biker shot a guy 17 times(count to 17)in broad daylight. The 17th shot was a coup de grace to the head as the victim was lying in the street. Luckily no one else was hit by one of the stray bullets, including some kids playing in a yard across the street. Apparently the biker was pissed off at his victim for some stupid reason. I will also mention saint John has a population of 65K. It's not a metropolis. Then there was the tragic mass shooting the next day in Toronto. As I mentioned in another thread violent behaviour is occurring worldwide, even in countries that don't have a NRA and a population who do carry weapons out of paranoia and due to some ancient manifest that allows them to do so. I dunno what the cause is (though I can only speculate). biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:08 AM My youngest is ok, just talked to her she was at the theater ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Rapparee Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:12 AM That's GREAT news, Dan. I'm waiting for the guy to explain himself. And just about exactly one year from the tragedy in Norway! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:13 AM My panic has now turned to rage, good thing the cops got the guy because I can tell you from my heart I would have found him and dealt with him myself and trust me, I could and would .. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Rapparee Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:19 AM One of your loved ones was endangered. I understand. I understand completely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: pdq Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:23 AM How does somebody with a black costume and three guns, including a shotgun and an assault rifle, just walk into a theater while a movie is on? Everybody else had to buy a ticket and go through turnstiles. Didn't the place have any security officers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:25 AM I'm waiting for the guy to explain himself. EXPLAIN HIMSELF? That's a joke, right?? He's a frickin' nut job. Besides, he was just exercising his second ammendment rights. Then too, Colorado is a "Stand Your Ground" state - he probably thought all those theater-goers were threatening him & shot in self-defense... Greg F- - responsible gun owner & hunter un-brainwashed by NRA lunatic bullshit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:29 AM Pdq, I read on NPR that he busted in through a side door. "â€" "According to witnesses, the shooter kicked in the emergency exit door in theater 9, threw some sort of disorienting smoke bombs and started shooting." (KUSA-TV)" http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/07/20/157090121/real-life-horror-many-killed-dozens-wounded-at-colorado-movie-theater |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: SINSULL Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:29 AM Dan, I am so sorry she had to experience that. I agree with you. I too could easily kill him if he hurt mine. But for now, watch your granddaughter carefully. She may need help getting past this. Much love, Mary |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:43 AM Mary it was my youngest daughter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Will Fly Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:52 AM Dan - what a relief it must be for you to know that she's OK. But she may need someone to talk to about it - if not now at some point in the future... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:52 AM Geeziz Dan......Don't know what to say that would help that you don't already know....We love you. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:54 AM I believe they've cancelled the Paris premier because of this tragedy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:05 AM She is pretty rattled up, but ok ... had the day off and her company gave her the hard to get tickets to go... Give me 5 minutes alone with the shooter, just five minutes please my daughter is a tough as her dad, she will be fine but it will take awhile |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:32 AM Sick... and gettin sicker it seems. Dan... that gave me the chills. Re 5 minutes, I assume you'll be a ways back in the lineup. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:39 AM I have a feeling that this kid will suffer more pain and punishment alive then he would dead... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:46 AM No doubt we will find that "he had shown no previous signs of being unstable, and had bought guns 'legally'". Right now there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other "not previously seen to be unstable" guys out there buying guns.... and thinking. Some of them may NOT try a similar thing. All the sadness and compassion in the world for victims and their families & friends will not prevent the next tragedy. Those who hold the 2nd amendment as some sort of 'holy writ' need to seriously reconsider........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:47 AM Yes, yes, the proliferation of guns is bad, but many of you are missing the point. If these criminals had not had a gun, they would have killed with arson or a bomb or by driving a car into a crowd. Last week a guy in rural Platte County (near Kansas City) killed two young women by clubbing and then suffocating them. He had been smoking methamphetamine. No guns were involved - just a strong man with a damaged mind. He left so many clues behind, he was apprehended and charged in a couple of days. As Bobert says "wacked out." I have read that fewer people are using bad drugs, but among those that do, their crimes are getting worse. I believe it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:57 AM Dan, I'm totally glad that she is well and can really empathize. Carol and I had our wedding in the DC area around the time of the beltway sniper killings. Three or four shootings took place within a few blocks of my father in law's home. One of Carol's close friends declined to attend out of fear. But unless you or your loved one is the intended target, there is safety in numbers, your odds of survival are pretty good. There were tens of thousands of other potential victims in Silver Spring, Maryland several million in the DC metro area. There were probably hundreds of people in that theater, thousands of people in the Denver area watching movies at that time. People are herd animals. There is safety in numbers. On the other hand, gun laws or not, crazy people will find ways to kill people. Some people go crazy. Taking revenge on a crazy person may be satisfying, but it doesn't make anyone any safer. Legally taking them out of society, permanently, if necessary, makes people safer. Is anyone else struck by how similar this guy's crime is to that of the villains in the previous two Nolan Batman movies? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 20 Jul 12 - 12:02 PM " If these criminals had not had a gun...." \ This guy had over 60 victims.... how many would he have hurt with a knife...or by attempting to strangle them? It is my strong belief that the very IDEA of being able to 'be all-powerful' with a batch of firearms actually leads many unstable persons to plan attacks that they would not even consider otherwise. Not everyone can build a bomb... but accumulating an arsenal of guns is just a matter of saving some money and not looking TOO weird at the clerks. (yes...some people occasionally drive a car into a crowd, but compare stastics. And cars do have a few non-lethal uses.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 20 Jul 12 - 12:26 PM I think the count is now 50 shot, of those 12 died and 38 were injured. He apparently entered through a door down at the front of the theater, usually used only for emergency exits. There was a gas canister of some sort thrown and he had four weapons at the theater and explosives in his vehicle. He had also booby-trapped his apartment with explosive devices, so while the witnesses from the theater are staged at a nearby high school so the police can take witness statements, the neighborhood around his apartment is cordoned off as they investigate what he left behind there. CBS News story The shooter was a 24-year-old man named James Holmes. Another nasty piece of work, and it sounds like the Gabby Giffords shooting but with armor added. He was well-prepared with bullet-proof vest, helmet, etc. I fear/suspect we'll hear that he has followed the Giffords case or was inspired by Columbine, in the same way that McVey in OK City followed Koresh in Waco. It's as if there are little mutual admiration societies among these psychotic men. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 20 Jul 12 - 12:31 PM Right now there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other "not previously seen to be unstable" guys out there buying guns... Nope. Its much worse than that. Thanks to the Marion Hammer, the NRA & ALEC, bunches of states, in addition to "Stand Your Ground" laws, have passed "shall issue" laws that permit convicted felons, domestic abusers, the documented mentally ill and all manner of other folks who shouldn't be allowed within 50 miles of a firearm, never mind a pistol, to to legally purchase & carry concealed weapons. Florida is the most egregious case, but Colorado has a "Stand Your Ground" law on the books & may very well also be a "shall issue" state. If ya ain't outraged, ya ain't paying attention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 20 Jul 12 - 12:37 PM If these criminals had not had a gun, they would have killed with arson or a bomb... Oh, please, not that old sophomoric nonsense again !! Thank you Wayne LaPierre & Charleton Heston. Yeah, right...and if he didn't have a bomb or a match & gasoline, he'd have used a tennis racket or a golf club or a hammer, and if he didn't have a tennis racket or a golf club or a hammer, he'd have used a phillips screwdriver or a rock or strangled 'em with a dog leash, and if he didn't have a phillips screwdriver or a rock or a dog leash, he'd have stabbed 'em with a hatpin or a nail file & on & on ad absurdum. Gimmie a frickin break, will ya? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 12:40 PM If Thomas Jefferson & Co. had known about AK-47s they would have labored longer on the language of the 2nd amendment... This is an insane weapon for ordinary people having a right to possess.. BTW, wonder what militia this kid is a member of??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Rapparee Date: 20 Jul 12 - 01:26 PM Which is why I'm waiting for more information: WHO is he, and I don't mean his name. And since this will degenerate in a shouting match over gun control, I'm outa here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Jul 12 - 01:43 PM THIS CARTOON was written just after the Gabbie Giffords shjooting and still says it about right.............Why are we even talking anymore. It is and will be what it is.................... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 20 Jul 12 - 01:49 PM Dan, I forgot you had family over there. I am so grateful you have heard from her and she is, relatively speaking, okay. I hate this. The Colorado I grew up in most families had rifles and maybe a pistol, but if you didn't hunt (we didn't) you just used them for target practice. I know, as pointed out above, this kind of thing is all too common throughout the world, but it's still a lot scarier when it hits so close to home. May the light shine and sustain all those involved and may there be peace among us all, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:06 PM Ah, Spaw, you just gotta love Tom Tommorow, dontcha. Look up the one on "The Rise And Fall of (Relative) Stupidity in America" from 2008. That's the other side of the same coin. Be well- Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: pdq Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:06 PM "James Eagan Holmes, 24, is the suspect apprehended in connection with the Colorado mass shooting at the Batman movie. His is a white American previously from San Diego who lived in a apartment building near the movie theater where the mass shooting occurred. He is a former Ph.D. student at the University of Colorado. Holmes was captured by police in the movie theater parking lot while still wearing a bullet-proof vest, riot helmet and gas mask, authorities said." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Penny S. Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:10 PM Dan, I'm so glad to hear that your daughter is OK, and so sorry for those whose children are not. One person who was there said she initially thought it was a publicity stunt for the film. What he was wearing would have suggested that. he would have been much more conspicuous in some other sorts of showings. I'm wondering if this has anything to do with Limbaugh's rantings about Bane? Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Elmore Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:11 PM Tragic. A problem Which many Americans, and, in particular, the NRA will not allow us to solve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:11 PM Good stuff, Spaw. (We coss-posted, so I didn't see it.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: SINSULL Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:15 PM Is no one else stunned that no one in the theater pulled a gun and shot this maniac in his tracks? Guess there aren't nearly as many guns carried in Colorado as NYC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM "violent behaviour is occurring worldwide, even in countries that don't have a NRA" It occurs everywhere OK, and always has - but as has been pointed out in another thread, the figures for all types of murder of all sorts in the UK are lower than they have been for 30 years. Gun killings are particularly likely to happen in certain societies, with certain social patterns and cultures, and the USA is very much to the fore among socially comparative countries when it comes to gun killings. ............................... Here is a link to a page giving a rundown of the gun regulations in Colorado. You can't really call them "gun controls", since they contain such brilliant provisions as these: "Local governments are prohibited from maintaining a list or other record or database of persons who purchase or exchange firearm or leave them for repair or sale on consignment, and persons who transfer firearms unless they are federally licensed firearms dealers, or of the descriptions, including serial numbers, of such firearms. "Local governments may not enact any ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the sale, purchase, or possession of a firearm that a person may lawfully sell, purchase, or possess under state or federal law." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM I said "over 60 victims.." the police chief just said 71....including 'several' in critical condition. ..."degenerate in a shouting match over gun control.." degenerate? The cartoon spaw posted has that degeneration outflanked. Everyday in this country...EVERY DAY... there are deaths by firearms way out of proportion to other countries! I do NOT see how an examination of what to DO about the use & control of deadly weapons is "degeneration". It is obvious that something needs to be addressed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:28 PM As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State, the Second Amendment reads: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.I do not believe that James Holmes, the Colorado shooter, constitutes, or is a member of, "a well regulated militia." Back in Thomas Jefferson's day, there were single-shot pistols and muskets. You fired one shot, then you had to duck behind a tree and reload. It would take a fairly fast reloader about a full minute to ram the powder, ball, and wadding into the barrel and recharge the pan before he could fire again. Either that, or he could shove the hilt of a bayonet into the muzzle and use it for a spear. These days, you can get a 30-round drum magazine for a Glock handgun, and empty the magazine with one pull of the trigger. The shooter in Aurora, Colorado had a shotgun, a rifle, and two .40 cal. Glocks. I don't think the possibility of something like this even occurred to the Founding Fathers. The NRA has one helluva lot to answer for! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:34 PM I have posted essentially what Don Firth said perhaps 8-10 times in the last few years. The NRA treats the 2nd amendment, as I say, like an infallible 'holy writ' instead of a human attempt to deal with a security problem at one specific time in history. Do I think we have a snowball's chance in hell of amending the 2nd amendment? HA! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:34 PM I am for gun control, for limiting certain types of weapons and the capacity of gun magazines. I am also for the regulation of other personal weapons and explosives. The coverage I saw said that he had a rifle, a shotgun and two handguns. We can't really ever ban shotguns or rifles in a place with as much wilderness and ranch land as Colorado. So how would gun regulation have helped here? He three smoke canisters and shot people in the confusion. If he had thrown smoke then gasoline in burning bottles he might still have killed and injured as many. In a free society it is almost impossible to stop a crazy person who is willing to sacrifice himself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:38 PM "Do I think we have a snowball's chance in hell of amending the 2nd amendment? HA! " If we re-elect President Obama, there is a very good chance we will get a Supreme court that will enforce it as written. "Well regulated militia." Certainly allows for regulation and restriction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bettynh Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:43 PM I think about Stand on Zanzibar by John Brunner whenever one of these events happens. His argument was that crowding would lead to this sort of thing (it was written in 1968) as happens with crowded rats . The name of the president of the USA in his novel was Zadkiel Obomi. He called the episodes "berserkers" and I think of them as such. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:44 PM "...enforce it as written.... But even scholars disagree on exactly what 'what was written' actually means! It should mean that people can 'bear arms' when acting AS a "regulated" militia". The very concept of a 'militia' for state & federal purposes has changed in 250+ years!....almost as much as firearms have changed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: pdq Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:50 PM "The AR-15 was first built by ArmaLite as a selective fire assault rifle for the United States armed forces. Because of financial problems, ArmaLite sold the AR-15 design to Colt. The select-fire AR-15 entered the US military system as the M16 rifle. Colt then marketed the Colt AR-15 as a semi-automatic version of the M16 rifle for civilian sales in 1963. The name "AR-15" is a Colt registered trademark, which refers only to the semi-automatic rifle." Look folks, the problem is defective people, not guns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Sugarfoot jack shocked Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:54 PM Is no one else stunned that no one in the theater pulled a gun and shot this maniac in his tracks? Who says the Americans don't do irony? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: saulgoldie Date: 20 Jul 12 - 03:19 PM Dan, so sorry to hear that. I hope you treat her gently and she does not carry the grief of the event. Now, if there is no gun present, then no one will get hurt from a gun. That is not arguable. It is a tautology: true by definition. No one can hurt someone else with a gun if they do not have a gun. Second, I cannot find the reference, so flame away if you must. But I distinctly remember a carefully done study some years back that put the subjects in roll-playing hostile situations with a defined conflict. One group sat at a table. Another group sat at a table with a knife on it. The third group sat at a table with a pistol on it. In the first group, the hostility did not escalate. In the second, it did escalate, but not that much. In the third, it escalated a LOT, and one of the participants reached for the gun. This study was done in strict accordance with scientific principles and integrity. It was not pre-loaded with a conclusion which the conductors of the study then cherry-picked data to "prove" their point. Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 20 Jul 12 - 03:32 PM Meanwhile in Scotland: homicide stats 2010-11 Homicides: 95. Homicides using guns: 2. Scotland has a slightly larger population than Colorado. I can't find a comparably clear document giving the figures, but it seems Colorado has a homicide rate about 50% higher than Scotland, and 75% of the killings are by gun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jul 12 - 03:55 PM ...crowding would lead to this sort of thing... That may well be a factor in some cases. But Colorado is not exactly overcrowded. About 50 people per square mile, 39th least population density in the USA. And the USA itself ranks behind 178 other countries out of 241 when it comes to population density, with 82 people per square mile. That's not perhaps the best direction to look to explain this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 04:23 PM The problem is "defective people" with guns that have no useful purpose other than killing people... I know that the NRAers will shout down the reasonable people... They always do... One day some right winged NRA executive or congressman of radio blow-hard will take about 12-20 rounds from one of these people killers and then, and only then, will we have a resonable conversation... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 20 Jul 12 - 04:36 PM The population density of the state of Colorado is not that relevant here. There are areas of Colorado with no population whatsoever, but Denver is a big city. Lots of people. Aurora (I have been there) is a suburb of, and a short drive from, Denver. One report says of Aurora, Colorado that "Aurora sprawls over a greater land mass than its famous neighbor, Denver, yet has no core. The original city center is now blighted, like so many inner-ring American suburbs, and development over the past half century has spread like water spilled on the floor. The current City Hall is across the street from the mall where the shooting occurred."When I was in Denver in the mid-1950s, a couple of friends and I drove out there one evening for a few beers. One of these suburban population centers that has no real identity of its own. As someone once said of another place, "There's no there there!" No, the problem is the archaic, Dodge City style gun laws (or lack of gun laws) that we have in this country. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: pdq Date: 20 Jul 12 - 04:40 PM "...the 12-county Denver-Aurora-Boulder Combined Statistical Area had an estimated 2009 population of 3,110,436 and ranked as the 16th most populous U.S. metropolitan area..." Like San Francisco and Carson City (Nevada), Denver is a city-county entity. Since cities must be entirely within a county, Denver cannot get much past the 650K or so population that it already has. The area around it grows evey day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Jul 12 - 04:48 PM It's not crowding. If it was crowding then Tokyo would have a incidents like that every day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 20 Jul 12 - 04:50 PM Dunblane in Scotland could hardly be said to be overcrowded, but a lunatic massacred all those tiny children and their teacher in a shooting. I'm not a psychologist, but it's often said that these individuals who go crazy and kill everyone in sight have a deep grudge against society. They feel no-one considers or respects them. They have no friends and are isolated. And they are severely mentally ill. I'm wondering if this chap was a paranoid schizophrenic? (Please don't think I'm excusing what he did, I'm merely trying to explain it.) And guns IMO aren't the issue. There was a serial poisoner (Graham Young) in the last century who did the same thing, killing dozens over the years, with arsenic. And of course, terrorist bombers don't use guns either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 20 Jul 12 - 05:14 PM Yeah, maybe he could've put arsenic in a water gun and sprayed them all with that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 20 Jul 12 - 05:30 PM Well, the methods these people choose are varied, but tragically their common aim is to kill and maim in a spectacular and attention-seeking explosion of violence and mayhem. I wonder if they could have been identified as potential killers during their younger days? They must have exhibited some strange and disturbing signs,surely? This chap for instance, we may never know, but I bet he was weird and odd for a long time before this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 05:32 PM It's about wacky guns and wacky people... That is the dangerous combination... Not much we can do about wacky people but... ... a lot, if we had the will, about the wacky guns... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 20 Jul 12 - 05:54 PM "Tragic. A problem Which many Americans, and, in particular, the NRA will not allow us to solve." Do you actually believe that you understand this problem so well that you can "solve" it? It is simplistic to blame the problems that we have with random mass murders on the availability of guns, if for no other reason than that guns were relatively unregulated for most of our history, and only when shooting started to become a problem were they regulated. Furthermore, though there are extensive regulations on the possession and availability of guns, the problem seems to be getting worse, not better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Songwronger Date: 20 Jul 12 - 05:58 PM Yes, America should be totally disarmed. Only our loving police should carry guns. Outlaw guns and the criminals will never be able to get their hands on them. Criminals will never have access to guns because that would be a crime. Outlaw all guns. Keep me safe, police. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: SINSULL Date: 20 Jul 12 - 06:04 PM Clear thinking enough to plan the carnage, protect himself with body armor and now refuse to speak without a lawyer. I pity his mother as much as I feel for the families who have lost loved ones or seen their loved ones scarred for life by this monster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 20 Jul 12 - 06:14 PM My daughter is ok, she was on the opposite far side, she said she grabbed her friend and hit the exit before the first shots went off. Quick thinking and quick reaction. Still rattled up for sure and so am I. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Jul 12 - 06:28 PM No civilian should have access to an AR 15 even a semiautomatic without checking it out of the armory of a well regulated militia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jul 12 - 06:38 PM The NRA has maybe 4 million members - probably including a fair number who are in there for practical reasons as gun owners, and don't necessarily share the nutty agenda of opposing all sensible gun laws. Anyway, 4 million is a lot of people - but in a country of 300 million people it's just a relatively small minority. No good trying to put all the blame on the NRA if the other hundreds of millions of Americans roll over and let them walk overe them. In any country there's a lunatic fringe. Most places they aren't allowed to rule the roost. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 07:10 PM What we have here is billion$ and billion$ of gun $ales... Of course the usual NRA mantra: Guns don't kill people, people kill people... Bullshit!!! Bad guns kill lots of people... Glocks with big clips... Ak-47s, AR 15s... These are bad guns... 100,000 people will be shot in 2012 in America... No, not all will die but they will be... ...fucking shot!!! America can do a lot better... Outlaw bad guns... Close the loopholes... Restore sanity or America is just going to turn into Somalia on crack... Fuck the NRA!!! They are killing us for $$$... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 20 Jul 12 - 07:10 PM Unfortunately, reasonable gun laws could be enacted but I suspect there is a lot of money at stake and some of that money ends up in foreign bank accouts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 20 Jul 12 - 07:14 PM Look folks, the problem is defective people, not guns. No, PeeDee, the problem is that defective people have free and unregulated access to firearms, and these defective individuals are championed by the NRA, ALEC, and persons like yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 07:30 PM Exactly, Greg... I just got off the time phone with Thomas Jefferson and he is really pissed off... He said we got it all wrong... He said that he and the boys would get together and rewrite the 2nd amendment to bring sanity to the nation... Said he'll get back to me... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 20 Jul 12 - 07:43 PM At one time I had a friend, and one of my guitar students, who was very much into guns. He got interested in competitive target shooting when he was in the Marines. But his interest in handguns escalated to the point where he never went out of his house without his trusty Colt .45 automatic strapped to his hip (and concealed by his suit jacket). And, yes, he did have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. He was so tuned to the idea of all the possible threats in the outside world that he damned near shot a mutual friend by accident. And this was shortly followed by his whipping out his gun and joining the police in trying to apprehend a couple of people who were trying to flee from a misdemeanor. The police caught the two (they were trying to drive away after denting a fender on a parked car). But they also arrested the friend, took him in, and confiscated his gun. And he had to go to court. The judge pointed out to him in no uncertain terms that the situation the had interfered in did not warrant the use of deadly force. The judge rescinded his concealed weapons permit and confiscated his gun for ninety days. I don't know what happened after that because I found other places to be and other things to do. I was beginning to feel that he was just too damned dangerous to be around! There are some folks who, if they happen to have a gun in there possession, feel impelled to use it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Jul 12 - 07:52 PM Another wacked out guy with a gun Decided he would have some fun Killed as many folk as he could Said he did what he thought he should But remember its people not guns, that do murder Give up our Uzi's! Nothing absurder! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: ChanteyLass Date: 20 Jul 12 - 08:15 PM Dan, I am glad your daughter and her friend got out of the theater quickly. My heart goes out to all the victims, their families, and their friends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 08:20 PM When these things happen, we are all victims... Seems that we are slowly being de-sensitized into a nation happy to just not be shot today... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Elmore Date: 20 Jul 12 - 08:40 PM Attn Guest Stim You're absolutely right. Tighter enforcement of gun control laws might be helpful in some types of crime, but not in crimes like this. Thanks, Elmore. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 08:55 PM The NRA's other mantra: Just enforce the laws... Wrong!!! The laws are wrong... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 20 Jul 12 - 09:05 PM But Elmore, Holmes had a Glock--TWO Glocks. And if he did not have them equipped with high-capacity magazines, how could he have shot so many people in so short a time? If more sensible gun laws outlawed fully automatic weapons with high-capacity magazines, as they used to, massacres of this nature would be far less likely. One does not need to outlaw guns entirely. BUT, one can alter the laws to make them far more reasonable, suitable for the sportsman (hunter, target shooter) or for home defense (the six-shot Smith & Wesson revolver easily accessible in the drawer--but safeguarded from curious children). You don't need a fully automatic Glock with a thirty-round magazine for self defense. Only for mayhem! Due to the psychological pecadilloes of the friend mentioned above, I've thought a lot about this matter. It all comes back to "a well regulated militia." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 09:13 PM Yes, where exactly is the sanity here??? We don't need the masses having weaponry that is superior to our domestic police force... That is... ...beyond crazy... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Songwronger Date: 20 Jul 12 - 09:14 PM The NRA is bad. They should all turn their guns in to our guardians, the police. The police are good. They are all even-tempered and stable and know how to use guns responsibly. You would never, NEVER need a gun to protect yourself from the police or an invading military force. So turn in your guns. The police will ALWAYS arrive in time to save your life. You do NOT need to worry about defending yourself. Turn in your guns NOW. And don't pay any attention to the crackpots who will undoubtedly begin linking this shooting to Obama signing two international gun-banning treaties next week--the Law of the Sea Treaty and the U.N. Small Arms Treaty. The Senate needs to ratify all treaties, and these would have been defeated as things were going, but now...who knows? Lets just SEE if the Senate doesn't get rid of those evil guns now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Songwronger Date: 20 Jul 12 - 09:15 PM Oh, yeah, and listen to Bobert on this. He's just so rational that it's scary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 09:28 PM Well, wrong man thinks that the pimps, crooks, burglars, rapists, killers, wackos should have superior fire power to the police??? Very delusional thinking at any level... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Songwronger Date: 20 Jul 12 - 09:38 PM Just ban all guns. Do it now. If we ban all guns then the pimps and all of those other bad people wouldn't have any guns. Problem solved. Just ban the guns. Obama will have a plan outlined for us in a couple of weeks, after he signs the gun-banning treaties. We'll be asked to snitch on neighbors about guns, and if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. And this shooting coming at the time of the gun-banning treaties was pure coincidence. Don't listen to the crackpots who say otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 09:49 PM Why would you do that, wrong man??? Your melo-dramatic throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bath-water doesn't win you any debating points... Guess again... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Jul 12 - 09:58 PM 'We'll be asked to snitch on neighbors about guns, and if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes.' This thread is fascinating for those of us who've never been to the USA. So, if your neighbour was seen waving round a machine gun - you wouldn't call the police.....? Its his right under this 4th ammendment - you have to wait til he shoots someone...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:03 PM Maybe because I am so much in a rage today and rattled up that I want to give every good person I know an Uzi fully auto ... fight the nut jobs on equal turf |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: pdq Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:05 PM Machine guns were banned in 1934. It is illegal to own one and any good citizen who recognizes one in the hands of his neighbor is obligated to call the police. Can any of you folks deal with facts and not engage in speculation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:09 PM Bad thinkin, ol'ster... Seems that the more folks with Uzis the more folks getting fucked up... More guns ain't gonna fix nuthin'... Just gonna get more people shot... This ain't rocket surgery here... The more guns, the more killings... Thems happen to be the facts... People didn't get killed back i the 50s and 60s like we have now... Why??? People didn't have guns... Guns kill people... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Songwronger Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:12 PM I'll have to wait to hear what our president thinks before answering that. The 4th amendment isn't the one about guns. That's the 2nd amendment. The 4th concerns protection against invasions of privacy, and Obama has already decided not to bother with that. He says he can spy on us with drones. And that's fine, because we might be doing something wrong. He should have the right to kill us too, like he says he has. If he sees us doing something wrong we deserve to die. This shooting is beginning to look bad, race-wise. They're reporting a white man shot black people. Don't listen to the crackpots who say this could help kick off the race wars that Obama's mentor Bill Ayers wants for America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: pdq Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:26 PM "Don't listen to the crackpots who say this could help kick off the race wars that Obama's mentor Bill Ayers wants for America." Yep, it get real difficult to tell Bill Ayres from Charles Manson. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:40 PM Bill Ayres is an aging college professor, ya'll... Get real... Get a new boogie man... As for Obama... He ain't gonna say squat... The NRA is more powerful that the president of the United States... They can fuck up anyone... They could fuck up Mother Terrisa if they wanted to... They could fuck up Jesus in a heart beat... No cross... They could fuck up God Hisself... No one goes up against the NRA... They got the $$$ and they got the wackos with big ass guns... You go up against them then there are two outcomes: 1. They will throw the $$$ at you or they... 2. Will throw Lee Harvey Osweld at you... No matter... You lose... Obama understands the dynamics here just as Clinton did after Columbine... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:59 PM I'm a bit hazy on the difference between machine guns and these other ones that fire off lots of shots. they do the same thing, don't they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:03 PM Not a lot of difference, Al... The semi-automatic requires you to pull the rigger per round fired... Automatic??? You hold the trigger down and it fires over and over and over... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:37 PM PDQ No they are not banned, you just have to have the right FFL license |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 12 - 12:11 AM Hey all. I think that Pdq is talking about a machine gun being a belt fed or large magazine fed high caliber weapon like the kind used in the trenches or WWI WWII and Korea to mow down the enemy from fixed positions. They were also mouted on propeller driven fighter planes. The ar-15 on full auto, as Bobert describes is called and assault rifle. It has much smaller, slower bullets and the magazine, that is the number of available bullets available without a reload is smaller. I have to disagree with bobert on the difference between full auto and semi auto. Full auto is a lot more sure of a kill with an Ar-15 or AK47. Short burst are fired the victim can receive three to five shots, basically before a person can move to duct or run. In between is the "sub machine gun" such as the Thompson gun which has 45 caliber pistol rounds and generally a larger magazine than the assault rifle. I don't know these things from experience but I've drank with some gun nuts and military types in my time, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 21 Jul 12 - 12:31 AM You'd think we could have a thread about the victims, etc., at least for awhile, before it devolves into the usual gun bullshit. People are dead...they are not going home, tonight; they didn't make it home last night. Dan could have lost his daughter. Give it a rest for a few minutes to remember them all, please, people! Surely we can all agree on that?! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 12 - 01:26 AM Kat, With love and respect to you, the title is "Another wacked out guy with a gun." If you were to start a thread called. Love, respect and prayers for the Batman fans in Aurora Colorado, or whatever you can fit, I would proudly post to it with love, prayers and respect. https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/580923_406182782773419_744946334_n.jpg You can start with this link from my conservative friend if you like. https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/580923_406182782773419_744946334_n.jpg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 21 Jul 12 - 02:39 AM Someone made profit from the sale of the guns, and I hope for the rest of their lives every time they look at their money they will see the bloodied bodies of the victims and the grief of their families... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 21 Jul 12 - 03:58 AM well this is the thing, isn't it? Someone has supplied this deranged character. By any civilised standards - that should have been illegal - I think we can all agree on that. the question is, whether you have laws in place already that should have prevented that, and whether those laws are being applied with sufficient vigour. Never mind about the penitent feelings of the dealer - common sense says he should be doing time for the evil consequences of his acts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: DMcG Date: 21 Jul 12 - 04:37 AM Look folks, the problem is defective people, not guns. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Defective people can kill. Defective people with guns can kill more, more quickly and more certainly. Yes, you have to find a way to deal with defective people who want to kill. That doesn't stop you addressing questions of gun ownership, for example by trying to reduce the opportunities of them getting into the hands of the defective people. In fact, the recognition there are such defective people should spur you to look for ways of stopping them getting at the guns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 21 Jul 12 - 04:46 AM JtS has it right, of course. This thread is just another thread in which Bobert, who may have a little too much time on his hands, blames someone on his short list for a serious problem, and several others, who have an equal amount of uncommitted time, then blame a number of totally unrelated things on Obama. This is not really about guns. This is not really about Obama. The truth is, we don't know what it's really about. We pretend that we do, though, and that will likely keep us from ever getting any closer to understanding it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 21 Jul 12 - 05:10 AM Tighter enforcement of gun control laws might be helpful in some types of crime, but not in crimes like this. The guy's weapons were all legal, so the evidence suggests the opposite. It's quite possible he bought the weapons when still sane (or at least, not crazy enough to be refused them) and then flipped. He seems to have been a compulsively law-abiding hyper-conformist religiously obsessed prig. The sort of case that comes to mind is that of James Clerk of Eldin, one of the leading judges in Scotland in the early 19th century. His family had hereditary Alzheimer's. After a distinguished legal career, somebody found him firing a pistol out of his window into pitch darkness trying to hit invisible demonically possessed cats. (Fortunately nobody got hurt). That could happen to anybody. Here's Kendall (who owns much more and better weaponry than Clerk of Eldin did) in another thread, talking the "home invasion" scenario: However, if you catch him "Red handed", that's a different story; then, he may pose a deadly threat to you and you have a right to defend yourself, or your wife's honor. Is Kendall uniquely immune to getting Alzheimer's or a stroke affecting cognitive function, and imagining such a threat? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Leadfingers Date: 21 Jul 12 - 06:14 AM 100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jul 12 - 08:01 AM Yo, Stim, Your post is delusional... Just leave your Obama hate outside... I didn't bring up Obama except in response to PDQ's back-handed Bill Ayers boogie-man that righties us to drag Obama into conversations that clearly aren't about Obama... Ya'll on the right are so eat up with Obama that there is no story, no discussion, that ya'll don't infect with your obsession with Obama... Yo, Jack... I have fired both an automatic and a semi-automatic... The automatic is the weapon of choice in a fierce fire fight... BTW, the AK 47 can be purchased at any Virgina gun show without it being reported to ATF or a background check... For an extra $5 you can buy a book on how to make it fire automatically... _____________________________________________________________________ Everyone else, There are weapons designed exclusively to kill people... Civil societies don't need to make them available to the general population... Somalia??? Different story... BTW, before anyone steps up and says that the US government is out to kill its people, forget it... That is tin-foil talk... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 12 - 09:27 AM Stim, Bob's views on gun control have always been made clear on this forum. He blames the NRA for the proliferation of guns in this country and since it is an alliance of all those who wish to promote gun use, lobby the government and disseminate pro gun propaganda, his stance is a reasonable one. A lot of people upon seeing the news of this mass murder thought. "We need more gun control." They think that every time such a tragedy occurs, which is far too often. Big Al. There is a big debate in this country about what weapons should be legal. This incident does nothing to change that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 21 Jul 12 - 09:31 AM Big Al- Actually, gun regulations in the U.S. have been steadly eroded due to a concerted NRA/right wing campaign for the last 25 years. THIS may be instructive. And before the howls of "Communist Publication" from PDQ & the usual suspects reaches a crescendo, the facts in the article can be very easily verified with a little on-line research. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jul 12 - 09:49 AM "Tighter enforcement of gun control laws might be helpful in some types of crime, but not in crimes like this." But there appear to be virtually no gun control laws in Colorado - and the existing gun regulations seek to make it impossible to introduce even the kind of controls that excist in many other states. Here's an extract from their rules about guns: "Local governments are prohibited from maintaining a list or other record or database of persons who purchase or exchange firearm or leave them for repair or sale on consignment, and persons who transfer firearms unless they are federally licensed firearms dealers, or of the descriptions, including serial numbers, of such firearms. "Local governments may not enact any ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the sale, purchase, or possession of a firearm that a person may lawfully sell, purchase, or possess under state or federal law." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 Jul 12 - 09:51 AM ""I am for gun control, for limiting certain types of weapons and the capacity of gun magazines. I am also for the regulation of other personal weapons and explosives."" Given the number of semi intelligent irresponsible gun owners, any attempt to take their guns would likely result in multiple deaths among those trying to enforce it. I think the first step would be to circumvent the NRA litany ""Guns don't kill people, people kill people""", by focussing on the gun buyer. Demanding an explanation backed up with evidence as to the need for the quantities of ammunition, as well as character references from verifiable sources, and if the answers don't add up, making it illegal to supply ammunition would seem logical. That way the nutcase still has a gun (satisfying the letter of the second amendment, which says nothing about ammo), but he ain't going to do much damage unless he throws it at somebody. Before anybody brings up the question of purchasing from internet sources, US authorities had no difficulty dealing with Brits whose internet activities annoyed them. If they can stop the sale of a bunch of batteries, 6000 rounds of .223 should be a doddle. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,999 Date: 21 Jul 12 - 09:56 AM "Can any of you folks deal with facts and not engage in speculation?" I can. 1) The killer had guns. 2) He shot about 60 people, killing twelve. 3) It would have been really difficult to do that with a knife. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 Jul 12 - 10:02 AM ""There was a serial poisoner (Graham Young) in the last century who did the same thing, killing dozens over the years, with arsenic. And of course, terrorist bombers don't use guns either."" I'm afraid, with the utmost respect Eliza, that you are equating apples and banjos. Young killed over a period of years, and he managed that because he lived in a time before modern forensics. Anybody emulating him today wouldn't get past the first victim. As to terrorists and bombs, what is it, do you suppose, that the police and the bomb squad are trying to defuse at this fruitcake's residence? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: MGM·Lion Date: 21 Jul 12 - 10:09 AM No-one seems to have mentioned some things reported in this morning's The Times (ie the prominent UK paper). Holmes dressed up as The Joker & declared himself to be the Joker while firing. Some people thought at first, they said after, that he was some sort of support act to the film supplied by the cinema. The New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly [whose role in the matter is unclear to me as the incident occurred a longlong way from there] is quoted as commenting that Holmes "clearly looks like a deranged individual I quote these, not as part of the argument re gun control ~~ we all know that we over here have an entirely different view to most over there ~~ but for any evidential value that might be thus provided as to state of mind of the perpetrator. ~Michael~ Another point of interest, indirectly related, is that our leading tennis player Andy Murray, no 4 in the world, is a survivor of the Dunblane school shooting of 1996. He ran and hid in an empty classroom, apparently. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jul 12 - 10:10 AM From a BBC news summary: In the 60 days leading up to the cinema attack, Mr Holmes legally bought four weapons at local gun shops - an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle, two .40-calibre Glock handguns and a 12-gauge Remington shotgun. Chief Dan Oates of Aurora police said he also purchased more than 6,000 rounds of ammunition on the internet, including 3,000 rounds for the assault rifle, 3,000 for the Glocks and 300 for the shotgun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 Jul 12 - 10:13 AM ""It is simplistic to blame the problems that we have with random mass murders on the availability of guns, if for no other reason than that guns were relatively unregulated for most of our history, and only when shooting started to become a problem were they regulated."" I'd have said they were as regulated in the 19th Century West as they are now. When the man who drew first was hanged if he survived, and the man who drew second was given the right of self defence and walked free. When drawing a gun to shoot unarmed civilians meant being shot dead or hanged for murder. Apart from the question of capital punishment, what would you say has changed? Yet, there are very few documented instances of angry men killing large numbers of unarmed total strangers at that time, unless of course, you count the Indians massacred by government troops. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 21 Jul 12 - 10:17 AM Food for thought: Holmes's long-time neighbors in San Diego say he seemed to be shy but smart, personable, and perfectly normal. His parents, however, say they're "not surprised" that he became a mass murderer. So far it isn't clear what, if anything, they did to prevent it. This goes far deeper than gun control. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 21 Jul 12 - 10:44 AM News story: increased gun control no longer a topic of interest: http://news.yahoo.com/obama-romney-views-evolved-toward-gun-rights-075546394.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,999 Date: 21 Jul 12 - 10:58 AM '. . . He had his hair painted red, he said he was the Joker."' Try a midnight theater-viewing of The Rocky Horror Picture Show. Forget the movie. Watch the audience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Jul 12 - 11:19 AM GUEST, Lighter wrote His parents, however, say they're "not surprised" that he became a mass murderer. So far it isn't clear what, if anything, they did to prevent it. I didn't read anything that concluded that the parents aren't surprised. If you read the ABC story, on the morning after the shooting an ABC reporter called and the conversation began from his mother "you have the right person." Think about it - this is probably in answer to "is this James Holmes' mother?" She then said she couldn't talk and she had to get to Colorado. End of conversation. Talk about playing a game of Rumor. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 21 Jul 12 - 11:38 AM Understood, JtS. I don't usually read this paper, but the op/ed piece HERE is interesting, imo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 21 Jul 12 - 11:58 AM Can any of you folks deal with facts and not engage in speculation Well, apparently YOU can't PeeDee- since you are wrong about the "ban" on machine guns. Thanks for playing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 21 Jul 12 - 12:08 PM guns were relatively unregulated for most of our history, and only when shooting started to become a problem were they regulated. Furthermore, though there are extensive regulations on the possession and availability of guns, the problem seems to be getting worse, not better. Now you're being disingenuous, Stim, or simply ignorant. Do check into the daily carnage, maiming and death from firearms of all types circa 1875 - 1915 in the good old U.S. of A., not only in the "Wild West" but in the major settled areas and cities as well. There sure as hell WAS a problem. The laissez-faire government at the time just didn't want to deal with it. Start here- http://nycma.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/RECORDSPHOTOUNITARC~19~19 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: bobad Date: 21 Jul 12 - 12:15 PM Bill Moyers: NRA has turned the 2nd Amendment "into a cruel and deadly hoax" Every year there are 30,000 gun deaths and 300,000 gun-related assaults in the U.S. Firearm violence may cost our country as much as $100 billion a year. Toys are regulated with greater care and safety concerns. So why do we always act so surprised? Violence is our alter ego, wired into our Stone Age brains, so intrinsic its toxic eruptions no longer shock, except momentarily when we hear of a mass shooting like this latest in Colorado. But this, too, will pass and the nation of the short attention span quickly finds the next thing to divert us from the hard realities of America in 2012. We are after all a country which began with the forced subjugation into slavery of millions of Africans and the reliance on arms against Native Americans for its Westward expansion. In truth, more settlers traveling the Oregon Trail died from accidental, self-inflicted gunshots wounds than Indian attacks â€" we were not only bloodthirsty but also inept. The Raw Story |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Jul 12 - 12:16 PM Thanks for the link, Kat. I've passed along that cartoon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 21 Jul 12 - 12:29 PM To be clear, here, I am not an Obama hater, and I didn't say anything against him. I just pointed out that when Bobert gets out his "Wes Ginny Slide Rule" or his "Smoky Mountain Pork Scale" or whatever, the usual suspects step out of the woodwork and rant about Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 21 Jul 12 - 01:57 PM The story I heard came from CNN, not ABC. The larger issue is still whether there were "warning signs" and, if so, for how long and if anything was done about them. To repeat: "This goes far deeper than gun control." "Nuts" - like the guy at Virginia Tech - don't typically just wake up one morning and decide to massacre a crowd of people. They build to it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 21 Jul 12 - 03:39 PM Over there seems to be two camps deeply suspicious of each other. The Freiends of Guns - lets 'em FOG's and the enemies of guns, EOG. Neither side are happy about these incidents like Denver. two points;- 1) I used to live in Nottingham, England - sometimes referred to as the capital of gun crime i the UK - although it must be said you could live all your life in Notingham and never see a gun. The fact is if you ain't a drugs dealer or a police officer, you won't own a gun. Most police officers don't carry guns - just the armed response units. Anyway one night - a nut climbed to the top of a pub- he had a shotgun - but he soon had fired off his crtridges to little effect. then he was hailed by the police helicopter, and he proceded to fire firework rockets at it. Imagine if that nut had access to the kind of guns and weapons he could have got in America - it would have been a very serious incident - instead of a bit of light relief . FOGs - you're kidding yourselves if you can't admit that keeping guns out of the hands of people who might, or might not be crazy wouldn't give the general public a greater degree of protection. 2) Binge killlers - we seem to be producing them in ever greater numbers. Even places like Norway - and in England - we've had Dunblane, Hungerford, and at least two other incidents in the last few years. We need some sort of register for people who are on the edge of doing this. Its no use getting professionals - we need centres where these folk have to present themslves and be monitored, taking their drugs, and how they interract should be noted. I believe in self- help groups - they need to be monitored by people who know what the depths of this depressive behaviour feels like - fellow sufferers. EOG's - a good supportive community would not be producing these people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jul 12 - 03:44 PM I would suspect that the kind of "warning signs" probably involved would be shared by large numbers of people who never go on to do anything remotely like this. I mean stuff like being obsessed by fantasy violence and dehumaising computer games and not having much of a life in the real world. The trouble is, you can't put the geni back in the bottle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 21 Jul 12 - 05:23 PM Well right now isn't a good time to talk to me on weapons, I am still in a rage, and still mourning those that lost kids. I am going out, my kids better show me they still know Kuntau, still can defend against knife attacks and can still shoot or they are getting crash courses again as when they were grown up... I had enough insanity, now I am in protect mode and I am damn good at it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jul 12 - 05:44 PM Unfortunately olddude, that is hardly very likely to make your kids or you safer. "Protect mode" is, in it's way, one kind of insanity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Jul 12 - 05:51 PM There will be no registry of nut cases on the verge of committing mayhem. It's unimaginable for all of the civil liberty reasons that anyone can come up with. But there are families all over America with grown children or siblings who know that the once-sweet child grew into a troubled teen who resisted help and by early adulthood was unreachable as far as mental health professionals were concerned. These individuals know they're smarter than everyone else, that anyone who tries to tell them what drugs to take or what doctor to see is delusional, and that all of those jobs or classes or places where people are continually turning against them in the end really understood and were on his side. Pardon me, did I say "his?" Perhaps because I know someone like that, who is beyond the reach of family, who knows in his mind that he knows better than his friends. As long as he hasn't hurt anyone else or himself, he is free to do whatever he wants. When the parents died, anyone who remotely had "control" of this individual was gone. In a place where someone like that is free, and guns are easily obtainable, then family members sit up straight, listen intently anytime there is news of a series of violent assaults by some unknown sniper or intruder. And realize that this time it is some other family who has to suffer the unwanted attention when their sibling or child is the one caught and charged. This is the individual you expect to turn up dead in a parking lot one night after tangling with someone even sicker than he is. You have to choose - either control the mentally ill people, or control the guns. You can't have them both out there as free radicals and have a safe society. And since you can't control the people (America is too busy incarcerating individuals for non-violent and for small-amount user drug crimes) it would make sense to control the guns. I won't hold my breath. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 21 Jul 12 - 05:57 PM my kids better show me they still know Kuntau, still can defend against knife attacks and can still shoot or they are getting crash courses again as when they were grown up... I had enough insanity, now I am in protect mode and I am damn good at it. A lot of nutters who go on killing sprees think they're protecting something - their race, religion, values, honour, reputation or family. Breivik being the most glaring recent example. The way you're headed, you don't need guns, you need counselling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 21 Jul 12 - 05:59 PM Big Al- In addition to the FOGs and the EOGs there is in the U.S. actually a much larger contingent of responsible firearms owners, sportsmen/Sportswomen & hunters (whatever you think of blood sports) who recognize the need for rational firearms legislation & control measures and who consider the National Rifle Association to be a gang of lunatics. Why this group hasn't more "traction" and why they are consistently drowned out by the FOGs and the EOGs is a whole other issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jul 12 - 06:02 PM My ol' sansei, 4th degree Okinawan black belt, teaches that your best defense is to shout and run... Yes, self defense is always good to know... That's why you learn it... But it's last resort... Not first option... If you have a gun and try to defend yourself with it your chances of survival are decreased... Yes, there are instances where the outcomes are good but... ...way too many where they don't turn out well... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jul 12 - 06:51 PM BTW, gun control ain't about what happened in Colorado... It's about what happens every day in America... 100,000 people will be shot in the US this year, and next, and next, and next... This is insanity on meth... Yes, people are messed up... But when you make very dangerous weapons readily available to messed up people that is irresponsible... I don't give a flying fuck about your rights to own what ever kinda of gun you want if in owning it you are infringing on my rights to not get shot... We need sanity restored to this country and quit letting Redneck Nation run the show... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 21 Jul 12 - 07:17 PM maybe so but right now it is my response and suspect it maybe yours also if it were your kid ... anyway, I take no offense to those that don't do what I do ... I can only do my best to avoid the victim syndrome that keeps occurring. when Good people do nothing to protect themselves then evil will always win. Cops ain't everywhere. Besides a good course in self defense is good exercise if nothing else. Hell of a lot more useful then yoga. And knowing your way around firearms was a way of life in my area of the country. MaYBE because every person is armed that there is no such situations in the mountains of PA . Dunno, don't care actually. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jul 12 - 07:22 PM Why this group hasn't more "traction" and why they are consistently drowned out by the FOGs and the EOGs is a whole other issue. That's what puzzles me, from across the ocean. It seems reasonable to assume that most people who for various reasons want to do stuff like hunting with a gun are no crazier than people with other hobbies, such as fishing or for that matter playing folk music. So how is it they let crazies speak for them? It's as if the motoring organisations were against driving tests and speed limits. So how does that come about? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 21 Jul 12 - 07:28 PM It about money, there are not sensible gun laws... none ... the NRA makes sure of that ..Its about money and political power. The NRA of our dad that was 100% about the sportsman is not anymore. That is why so many wack jobs can get armed so easily. I am rambling and once I cool down I suspect things will be back to normal but today it ain't no pocket watch I am carrying into the city grocery shopping,. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Janie Date: 21 Jul 12 - 07:35 PM McGrath I really appreciate your recent comments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 21 Jul 12 - 08:14 PM So how is it they let crazies speak for them? It's as if the motoring organisations were against driving tests and speed limits. So how does that come about? I wish I could tell you Kevin. Dan's right to an extent- its a cynical play for money and political power. But it also has to do with the same bunch of mindless idiots that think The Prez.is a Muslim fundamentalist & support the Tea Party Republicans - I whole-heartedly recommend Idiot America: How Stupidity Became a Virtue in the Land of the Free by Charles P. Pierce Click Here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jul 12 - 08:25 PM Yeah, stupid is the in thing, Greg... Meanwhile the TeaPubs attack education, ignore the fact that the US ranks very high in all the bad stuff and very low in the good stuff and continues down the slippery slope toward the abyss, i.e, a failed state with so much imposed poverty & ignorance it can not correct itself... Redneck Nation is a stupid nation... And one certain to fail... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jul 12 - 08:36 PM I understand that there are people with crazy ideas who can raise money from other crazy people with money, and can sometimes try to take over organisations such as the NRA. But why do the majority who aren't crazy let them do it? "The NRA of our dad that was 100% about the sportsman is not anymore." So how did the members allow that to happen? I mean, I can quite imagine the BNP here trying to take over our EFDSS - but they wouldn't be allowed to get away with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jul 12 - 08:42 PM Yo, McG... I was an NRA member for 20 years... I used to be a member of a local NRA shoot club... I got the medals and the patches and all that... This ain't my NRA... This is an enemy of the state... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Janie Date: 21 Jul 12 - 08:45 PM I long for the day when very bright and caring people such as the usual suspects here learn to stop finger pointing, accept the validity of varying points of view, recognize that politics are not the be all and end all, stop posting sound bites and talking points, and most of all, start respecting and acknowledging complexity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jul 12 - 09:05 PM Nothin' complex about the NRA, Janie... For the last 30 years they have been a fortress of right winged ideology... That's not a sound bite... That is reality... I know... I been on both sides of the NRA... I quit them when they expanded to preaching about homosexuality, abortion, liberals, etc. etc... No sound bite on my end... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 21 Jul 12 - 09:20 PM For your consideration: 1. There are at least 200,000,000 *legal* guns out there right now. And maybe as many more that are *illegal.* They will not go away. In other words, no conceivable gun control can absolutely prevent massacres such as this one, or the tens of thousands of shootings, intended and accidental, that occur annually. 2. As long as the Supreme Court believes that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms (and that includes ammunition) to all law-abiding citizens, no law can prevent a lunatic with no criminal record from getting as many guns and bullets as he wants. 3. Nor is it possible for any legislation to outlaw the purchase of firearms by apparently law-abiding citizens - and that includes citizens who are about to break the law big-time. I won't say that no tightening of current gun laws or their enforcement is possible (of course it is), but my reality sensors tell me that the effect on actual gun crime would be minimal indeed. The outlaws *will* always have guns, the unnoticed lunatics *will* always be able to get them, and other people will still shoot each other in fits of rage or intoxication. Stronger laws would help somewhat, but they wouldn't fix the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jul 12 - 09:25 PM Strict enforcement of better gun laws will restore a lot of sanity... But, I agree, the "problem" isn't all about guns... It's about a society so consumed with consuming that it is consuming itself with no regard for its future... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 21 Jul 12 - 11:06 PM there is no regard for human life anymore, no respect for others, no compassion or caring ... ya gotta worry about someone blowing your kids head off just going out to the movies or going to school or out for a burger. ME mine are getting custom .357 Mags for xmas and I will do the trigger jobs and night site install myself .. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 21 Jul 12 - 11:20 PM and better be ready cause I am going to put them through a seal training including kuntau and Krav Maga . Taught them before, they better damn well remember it they think hiking the 14 K moutain's are tough .. wait till next week. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 21 Jul 12 - 11:23 PM About the comments asking why there was no one in the theater who had a gun and who could have shot the idiot before he did so much damage....the idea being that if, like Arizona, concealed carry is legal, and a larger % of the populace was armed, we would all be safer. When Congresswoman Giffords was shot in Arizona, there WAS a young man 'packing' who was right there. He explained that he almost drew his weapon and shot the aide who was helping Giffords, mistaking him for the shooter. In the heat of the confusing moment, it is just as likely one will do the wrong thing as the right thing. If you think YOU would 'be more careful' and are more likely than most to guess right..... then imagine the scenario where 'most' are packing! How many testosterone-fueled good-guy vigilantes would you want pulling weapons in a dark,crowded theater? My point is- there ARE some good people who are reasonable, sane and well-trained in firearms. There are several who post here whom I would generally trust with my life in a situation where firearms were So... what is the answer? Basically, the test should be: do you NEED certain types of firearms, not can you USE them. Are you a hunter? Then, sure...pass certain tests and you may own hunting rifles. But pistols?... large magazine or not.. PROVE your personal job or situation requires it! Then pass all sorts of training & review BEFORE you get a license. Auto or semi-auto assault-type weapons? NO! Police and military only! Do I realize there are already thousands of pistols and AK-47s & such out there in the hands of not-quite-trustworthy folls? Sure... I am totally aware that my suggested rules & regulations would be hard to implement...but we MUST start somewhere! If the rules had been in place one year ago, this latest idiot might not have found it so easy to be a dangerous idiot! In all situations where we find ourselves "waist deep in the Big Muddy", the first rule is don't wade out NECK deep! Then rule 2 is: slowly wade back towards shore. If you are worried that too many fools have too many guns, the answer is NOT 'go get a gun of your own'! If that was a basic response, the old joke about a "circular firing squad" would not be very funny after awhile. I am sure all those who own various guns will find all sorts of arguments.. as does the NRA.. to disagree with me. It is always VERY hard to back down from a long-held position - especially an emotional one. It was once quite fashionable to have duels, beat wives, and own slaves. I hope my great-grandchildren will be able to go to a gun museum and say.."gee, people used to keep those things at home!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 12 - 11:25 PM Dan a hundred million people will probably see that movie. 12 people dead. The odds are with your kids. You want to actually make them safer?. talk them out of ever driving or riding in anything smaller than a bus. But even on a motor cycle they are probably the safest generation. As far as martial arts go and carrying a gun. Much safer to travel in circles where those things are not needed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 21 Jul 12 - 11:32 PM Much safer to travel in circles where those things are not needed. Amen! I have NEVER...NEVER... in 55 years as an adult, needed a gun! The one situation where I was around them was ludicrous, because my friend... well-trained and competent with guns... was also sorta like George Zimmerman. He thought he had to 'watch' over his friends and he did various stupid stuff. He just never became a news story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 22 Jul 12 - 12:07 AM BillD, as usual, I agree with you. It becomes disheartening when new laws are passed which free up gun-toting. Just recently, the University of Colorado in Boulder passed some regulation which allows concealed weapons to be carried anywhere on campus, including classrooms, by students, faculty, etc. I would remind folks who think the "Wild West" as an example of guns "keeping the peace," a lot of towns made folks check their guns in at the local constabulary, only getting them back again when they left town. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Jul 12 - 12:42 AM In the late 19th century Doc Holiday was banned from gambling in Denver because he would not give up his Colt 45's and Derringers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jul 12 - 12:55 AM Bill, your post just above pretty much describes the situation with my friend, the one who almost shot another good friend and shortly thereafter, got himself arrested when "helpfully" interfered with police trying to make an arrest. He gave me some very good instruction and training in target shooting, and then went on to instruct me in combat shooting. I have a couple of guns. One primarily for target shooting: a tournament grade .22 cal., big, looks like it should shoot laser beams. Purely for sport. And another one, a Walther PPK .380 cal. Looks like the one James Bond carries. Apart from popping away at empty soda pop cans, the only thing it's good for is carrying concealed and shooting people. After I decided that my handgun instructor was too damned dangerous to be around, my firearms are locked in a drawer. With the small supply of ammo (a box of 50 rounds for each of them) locked in another drawer in a separate room. My wife and I live in a secured apartment building, and there are friendly people all around. I do not feel that I need a gun for personal safety. Of course there is always the possibility that I could encounter someone like James Holmes somewhere. But I think it's more likely that I could be seriously injured by some kid with his pants at half-mast going to beat hell down the sidewalk on a skateboard! Don Firth P. S. There was a bizarre incident a few weeks ago. Some witless wonder came walking up the street near where we live shooting a .38 cal. revolver at trees and into grassy embankments. Neighbors heard the shoots and called the police. They picked the guy up a block or two away. He said he was just testing the gun to see if it worked all right. I didn't hear the outcome of the story, but I do know that there are some very severe penalties for discharging a firearm within the city limits. He's in very deep do-do! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:27 AM Kat, I'm amazed! Can it really be true that Colorado University ALLOWS its students to carry loaded weapons around on Campus?? That's astonishing! How very dangerous and bizarre that seems to us in UK. Here, even a knife is completely illegal, and one would be instantly arrested for possession. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 22 Jul 12 - 06:02 AM My poem on gun laws, "Monopoly" - http://walkaboutsverse.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/walkaboutsverse-100-of-230.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 22 Jul 12 - 06:26 AM there is no regard for human life anymore, no respect for others, no compassion or caring Then how come rates of violent crime have been steadily declining in the entire developed world for decades? Declining much faster from a lower peak in countries without a fascist gun culture, but they're declining in the US too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Jul 12 - 07:13 AM well....there wouldn't be any point in carrying an unloaded gun on campus. And who knows perhaps Jean paul Sartre was right - people were at the most free under the nazis in France, because every choice was in the presence of death. that would liven up Philosophy 101! Poor old Charlton Heston - I bet when he came down from the mountain with Thou Shall Not Kill - he never thought there would be all these ammendments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 22 Jul 12 - 07:38 AM "there is no regard for human life anymore, no respect for others, no compassion or caring ..." If you think that's true just try reading S.C. Gwynnes recent book, 'Empire of the Summer Moon' - an account of the Comanches and their last great leader, Quanah Parker. The Comanches routinely practiced appalling violence (frequently against fellow Native Americans - not just white people); mass murder, gang rape and torture. The primary occupation of all Comanche males was war and every single one of them would probably be classified now as a cold-blooded, psycopathic killer who should be locked up for the rest of his life - "another wacked out guy with a gun" ... and a bow and arrows, and a tomahawk, and a scalping knife. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 Jul 12 - 08:44 AM The fact that guns make it easier to kill people is well covered above. What there has been less said about is that the Wild West mentality seems so oddly prevalent in the US psyche - and that there seems to be an endless stream of US - oriented or originated propaganda from Hollywood and from rap music and from metal music and etc etc to the broad effect that violence and guns are the only manly answers and ways to solve problems. These things have made Clint Eastwood, Sylvester Stallone, Steven Seagal and Jean-Claude van Damme stars. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Jul 12 - 09:14 AM Yeah! and Jason Stratham, Vinnie Jones and Daniel Craig |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jul 12 - 09:36 AM Nice post, Bill D... The NRA has been pushing legislation that will, in effect, make us less safe with more and more untrained people with concealed (or not) weapons... Federal parks should be gun free zones... Face it, the national parks have been the safest place on the planet to hang out, hike, camp, fish, boat, etc... I don't want wackos there with guns... I pay taxes, too, and there should be places where I can go and not be concerned about wackos... Lets get real here... Wackos ain't into parks... It's not their bag... I also don't want them is restaurants that serve alcohol... But the NRA does... Great... A bunch of armed drunks... This is insanity on crack... Here's the most disappointing aspect of this issue... The only voices we hear are those of the NRA and wackos... Our side never ever gets a word in edge-ways except here on the Internet... But Big Media is so afraid of the NRA that they ignore folks like Bill D as if he were a radiation pit... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Jul 12 - 09:47 AM A bunch of armed drunks. Is enough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 22 Jul 12 - 09:57 AM ""there is no regard for human life anymore, no respect for others, no compassion or caring ..." If you think that's true just try reading S.C. Gwynnes recent book, 'Empire of the Summer Moon' - an account of the Comanches and their last great leader, Quanah Parker."" The logic of this statement escapes me!! The fact that relatively primitive tribesmen behaved appallingly one hundred and fifty years ago has absolutely no bearing on the standards of behaviour which might be expected in a supposedly civilised country in the twenty first century. The two are not mutually exclusive! Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 22 Jul 12 - 10:00 AM Well I am starting to settle down a bit. One commentator on TV said that when Bill Clinton passed the brady bill, it cost the dems the house and senate seats bigtime. So no party will talk about sane laws. People on the terrorist watch list are not prevented from buying .. So why would they prevent a wacked out nut job ... Like I said, gun shows, little checking ... there are no sane laws so be prepared to see a lot more of this stuff sadly |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: number 6 Date: 22 Jul 12 - 10:14 AM Go on and on ranting and pointing fingers at the NRA, rednecks and the wild, wild west metality of the U.S.A. Toronto gun violence rages as politicians debate solutions biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 22 Jul 12 - 10:22 AM Kat The no guns on campus law is federal, no state can override that. The University Administration can pass their own policy but the Federal law still applies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 22 Jul 12 - 10:24 AM "The logic of this statement escapes me!!" The logic is that it (i.e. violence) is probably not getting worse (except in certain parts of the world such as Syria). Violence was much worse in the past - and not just in Texas 150 years ago. Many other cultures, in the past, had a much greater contempt for human life than we do now. And by the way, as a Brit, it seems blindingly obvious to me that the US's problems with gun crime are largely the result of the ready availability of guns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 22 Jul 12 - 10:38 AM Ok no matter what country you live in do this for your kids and loved ones. Take a broom stick, put it in the palm of your hand and cut it so it sticks out a half inch each side. In Kuntau we call that little piece of wood a (pronounced yarrow-R). In a fist it will turn a 100 pound little girl into Mike Tyson. The edges will cut like a box cutter. A down blow will kill ... and it is a little piece of wood in a fist. Not a weapon, legal anywhere but in the right hands .. devastating. If we gotta live in a war zone at least do that |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Megan L Date: 22 Jul 12 - 10:48 AM Thankfully some of us dont live in a war zone violence begets violence. The Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg of Norway had it right today when he said "The killer failed; the people have won," |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 22 Jul 12 - 10:49 AM I don't know about that. All I know is it is allowed on the campus. You may read about the case that went to the CO Supreme Court . Eliza, there are many of us, over here, who feel the same incredulity. My grandma attended "Normal School" in the one building which made up CU when she got her teacher's certificate. Those were horse and buggy days. I am sure, if anyone had a gun, it would have been for dealing with injured animals and/or protection from wildlife, i.e.rattlesnakes and the like. It would not be because of some misguided "students for concealed weapons on campus" group. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stringsinger Date: 22 Jul 12 - 10:50 AM I'll tell you who is wacked out. It's the NRA encouraging the sale of automatic weapons and the gun manufacturers who are not being controlled by regulation. The ruse about the Second Amendment ignores entirely the part about the "Regulated Militia", something the NRA and the gun manufacturers apparently know nothing about. Gun control is as necessary as automobile controls and traffic stoplights and signs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: number 6 Date: 22 Jul 12 - 11:19 AM Trying to control, regulate guns is as futile as the war on and illigalized drugs ... both involve the commerce of big $money$ .. there is also the element of violence that plagues humans in regards to weaponry. Sadly I do admit I'm somewhat pessimistic but I feel Jens Stoltenberg's statement is somewhat as shallow as Neville Chamberlan's "peace for our time". As for traffic and stop signs, many European cities are doing away with these street regulations ... ""The many rules strip us of the most important thing: the ability to be considerate. We're losing our capacity for socially responsible behavior," says Dutch traffic guru Hans Monderman, one of the project's co-founders. "The greater the number of prescriptions, the more people's sense of personal responsibility dwindles." "we're losing our capacity for socially responsible behaviour" ... I think that says a lot. We are now becoming a society where everyone is talking, wanting to be heard but we have lost touch to listen, and to touch out and feel humanity. anyway ... that's my opinion on this whole tragic mess. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jul 12 - 11:23 AM The guy who sold Jame Holmes the assault rifle has said he had a bad feeling about the guy... Hmmmmmmm???? I'd say that if a gun dealer has a bad feeling about someone buying an assault rifle that he should have notified the FBI or DHS or someone... And, yeah, Strings hits a point that many of us have argued going back forever but never gets a fair hearing... The 2nd amendment is one sentence meaning that the thoughts expressed in it are, ahhhhh, related... That's the way the English language works... But the NRA wackos shoot right on past the "well regulated militia" part because it absolutely destroys their argument... Hey, the law is the law... Not a lunch menu... Thomas Jefferson would tell us to reread the amendment for content and quit playing stupid... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 22 Jul 12 - 11:57 AM kat & Bobert seem to have read my entire long post.... Lest there be any confusion and/or misunderstanding, I am 'advocating' not just regulating stupid things like gun shows, but also changing the laws to require anyone who wants to own ANY firearm to show cause AND competence. Hunters would find it fairly easy to obtain reasonable equipment. However, handguns would be restricted to those who **need** them, with 'need' being determined by a panel of police and relevant officials. Existing handguns and assault weapons would be gradually recalled & removed from the general public, with SEVERE penalties for using them in ANY way and/or refusing to comply. (Yes...I DO know that would be slow & tedious to do....but the alternative is MORE of them) For those who hold to the crazy notion that "our guns are our defense against the rise of a government who wants to take away out guns!", I say... look at your own logic. (You will note I am not holding my breath waiting for my ideas to be approved- I don't look good when I turn blue.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 22 Jul 12 - 12:01 PM Kat, I'm amazed! ... Colorado University ALLOWS its students to carry loaded weapons around on Campus?? Well, if that amazes you, Eliza, check out the article I suggested to Big Al on 21 Jul 12 - 09:31 AM, above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 22 Jul 12 - 12:26 PM bill we have that already in the state of NY but it doesn't do a thing of good because of the "gun show" law ... negates any sensible gun laws |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 22 Jul 12 - 12:35 PM Dan... does NY actually require those who apply for a permit to prove need? Or just lack of criminal record? You own firearms... what is your 'status'. The problem of gun shows in places like Virginia does indeed make local laws useless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jul 12 - 01:00 PM If you actually want to make your kids safer, make sure they and the people around them know how to do CPR. Having people going around with fantasies in their head about being violent is one factor making these kinds of things more likely to happen - even if the fantasies start as being about self defence and defending other people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST, Lighter Date: 22 Jul 12 - 01:06 PM > The 2nd amendment is one sentence meaning that the thoughts expressed in it are, ahhhhh, related... That's the way the English language works. True, but that one sentence is ambiguous: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Interpretation 1 (restrictive): "A well-regulated militia is necessary, so the people are allowed to bear arms only as members of that militia." Interpretation 2 (nonrestrictive): "The right of the people to bear arms is fundamental, and one of the things they need to do is form a well-regulated militia; but regardless, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed." The Supreme Court, which knows more about the historical context and Constitutional law than I do, has plumped for door No. 2. Since it's less restrictive, it grants less power to the feds and more to the people. That makes it (wait for it)... "liberal." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jul 12 - 01:34 PM I don't think the Supreme Court knows much more than any educated person knows... I mean, any English teacher can diagram the 2nd amendment but I doubt that any Supreme Court justice could... In diagramming sentences one sees the structure and relationships of words to others... I agree that the sentence is difficult but for the NRA to constantly beat the "2nd amendment" drum yet not allow a full discussion of the amendment is dogmatic, rude, boorish and bullying... When ever these event occur the NRA wackos start SCREAMING "shut the fuck up" to anyone who so much as suggests a discussion of the entire amendment or reasonable changes to laws that would make us all safer... I'll tell you when the Supreme Court and the American people will stand up to the NRA... It will occur when a cell of Islamic wacko radicals buy up a few truck loads of AK-47s, convert them to fire automatically and take over an upper middle class/rich town and kill a couple hundred or thousand rich people... That will be the end of the NRA's stranglehold on America... Don't think it can't happen... The existing laws today (or lack there of) would allow this to happen... We are being very naive about just how this could all go wrong for our nation... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: pdq Date: 22 Jul 12 - 01:43 PM "a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state..." This is an opinion and it is there to explain, not to set, the policy. "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" This is the policy statement and stands with/without the previous phrase. Besides, all of the Founding Fathers were gun owners and they explain the right to private ownership of guns in various documents too numerous to count. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 22 Jul 12 - 01:58 PM I doubt the NRA has the power to "prevent a full discussion of the amendment," particularly since those discussions happen every day, including here. I've even heard TV talking heads discuss it. And Congress used to discuss gun control once in a while. Not that the NRA is a force for good in this case, but the real problem is that few members of the public give a hefty rat's about an issue demanding more than ten seconds' thought. That's why they're not showering their elected representatives with demands for smarter gun laws OR better financial-industry regulation OR anything else that violates the ten-second rule. Actually, I've done it. I even got a rational, if unsatisfactory, letter in reply. I should do it more. Yeah, if Congress thought that positive action would get them re-elected, the majority would get on the ball. But most of the constituents they hear from the ones mad as hell that the liberal-communists might change *anything* and take away their freedom. Somehow. Besides, most people have no time to email their Congressmen. They're too busy posting to Facebook, and, what's more, it's hard to write an intelligent, non-sarcastic sentence about anything serious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: kendall Date: 22 Jul 12 - 02:08 PM One hard, cold fact; if they stopped making guns today, there are still over 300 million of them in circulation. Would anyone care to address that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 22 Jul 12 - 02:41 PM I just did, Kendall. Short form... we gotta start SOMEWHERE! Doing NOTHING means more guns tomorrow and more idiots having more opportunities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 22 Jul 12 - 02:43 PM Look...if you find flies in your kitchen, is your logic "there's too many, it's no use swatting ANY?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 22 Jul 12 - 03:18 PM (1) Sart with the ban (2) Require thiose who already have guns to hand them in (3) Convict those who don't (4) Very long prison sentences for possession of a firearm in public simple!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jul 12 - 03:23 PM First of all, pdq, how can you even think that a "well regulated militia is is an opinion... The Bill of Rights are not opinions... They are the legal guide lines for the body of out laws... I mean, I could say the right to bare arms is an opinion but it isn't... It's part of the Bill of Rights and tied to a "well regulated militia" or the FFs would have written it as a separate sentence ... The fact that the 2nd amendment is one sentence is what gives credence to Bill, et al's arguments... As for the NRA having to power to prevent a discussion on gun control??? Sure, any congressman who wants to be defeated can introduce gun control legislation... That's a sure fire way of having the full force of the NRA come down on you... BTW, I agree with Bill... If we do nothing then we will admit that we are not a civil society at all... Yes, it would be tough but it is do-able... BTW, an average of 273 Americans will be shot today... And tomorrow... And the next day... And the next... And the............ B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 22 Jul 12 - 03:50 PM Bill for handguns absolutely, you cannot own a handgun in New York state without a state issued permit and it is expensive and requires approval of the local police, sheriff, FBI and a county judge ..You are photographed and fingerprinted also. and yes I am fully licensed to carry nearly anything ... concealed or otherwise ..in a lot more than just New York state |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:01 PM A bill on handguns won't work unless it is nationwide, Ol-ster... It needs to a federal law or some states (we all know which ones) will just play games and we will have achieved absolutely nothing... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:08 PM absolutly right, we have the most rigid handgun laws in the US here in New York state, and one of the highest handgun murder rates . By the way all handguns are registered with the state.. Why what criminal is going to do what us law abiding people have done, when going to an out of state gun show is a hell of a lot easier |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:09 PM "Besides, all of the Founding Fathers were gun owners and they explain the right to private ownership of guns in various documents too numerous to count. " Do I have to get my money back for those political science courses I did way back in the 1970's? Because I was taught that the amendments were not written by ALL the founding fathers but that ALL the founding fathers made provision for the SCOTUS to analyze the wording of all of the Constitution and that their "opinions" were to be the final word on what the words in the Constitution meant. I heard from E.J. Dionne a couple of days ago that Hamilton and Adams, both signers of the original document, argued just three years after they signed it about the degree of federal power it allowed. To say that we know now what ALL the founding father's intended is a pretty silly claim. Is it not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:10 PM well my kids grew up with weapons and can shoot and know how to shoot and know their way around them. Now I want them to carry ... no one else has to follow that plan but I am comfortable with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:30 PM AURORA, CO - Authorities in the Colorado movie theater massacre found an AR-15 rifle drum magazine Friday capable of carrying 100 rounds . Can you imagine what that weapon would have done to a platoon of redcoats standing in formation to fire staggered volleys? Can you imagine even a single shooter also armed with to Glocks and shot gun with body armor and a Kevlar helmet losing that exchange. Even as smart as the founding fathers were, can you say with a straight face that they anticipated such weapons and meant for them to be as easy to purchase, hide, resell and transport as they are now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:33 PM Yup, Ol'ster... The Mayor of New York City has made it perfectly clear that he'd be more than happy to see the Commonwealth of Virginia quit being the arms dealer for New Yorkers... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: pdq Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:41 PM Somebody seems to be confuseing the Framers of the Constitution with the Founding Fathers. The latter is a much more broad term that dates back only to early 20th Century and include a variety of people up to and including James Monroe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:47 PM The whole point of allowing the citizenry to "keep and bear arms" is in order to be able to form a "well regulated militia" should the need arise. It doesn't take an English grammar professor to understand that sentence. No, scratch that! Obviously, it does! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:48 PM Somebody seems to be claiming to be able to read the minds of even a larger and more diverse group of dead men, while insisting that they were all in accord when any basic knowledge of the history indicates that they were not all in agreement and that they realized, as a group, probably with some disagreement, that they were not psychic soothsayers like yourself and allowed for judicial review. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Jul 12 - 04:49 PM "It doesn't take an English grammar professor to understand that sentence." There are none so blind as those who will not see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jul 12 - 05:12 PM The point I'm making, which I hope came across, is that a motley collection of gun owners all over the country do not and never would constitute a "well regulated militia." The National Guard is a well regulated militia. And the military in general is a well regulated militia. So--why do we need everyone to wander around armed to the teeth, when they are more likely to shoot each other or shoot themselves in the foot than they are to be able to defend the country in times of crisis? Don Firth P. S. Oh, sure! If Obama tries to arrest you and send you to Guantanamo, if you have your rusty, dusty, trusty hawgleg, you can fight back. Well, lotsa luck with that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 22 Jul 12 - 05:34 PM Don... "The whole point of allowing the citizenry to "keep and bear arms" is in order to be able to form a "well regulated militia" should the need arise." That sentence means to me that you are cool with the citizenry being allowed to keep and bear arms should the need for the use of those arms arise. Well, that is exactly what they are doing. Don't get me wrong. I am more on your "side" than you seem to understand at times but if yer gonna cite the fact that you know what sentences written by others mean in an exact sense, read your own before you post them whilst talking down to people. It does not suit you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 22 Jul 12 - 05:42 PM P.S. That motley crew may be needed to defend innocent people from the militia (National Guard) when it ain't so "well-regulated"... Kent State kinda shit eh? Or, say, defend the rights of oppressed minorities... seems to me I heard something about a group of people, mostly in the southern states, who bore arms at one time to gain better treatment and step toward equality with whites. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 12 - 05:42 PM The NRA's argument is that we (private citizens) are the militia intended in the Second Amendment. If they really believe this, then they should have no problem being well-regulated. If they do not wish to be well-regulated, then they have no protection under the Second Amendment, since it clearly defines its rational as being for the purpose of a well-regulated militia. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 22 Jul 12 - 05:43 PM Well said, A. Y'all need some GOOD gun laws. But, first, ya need some politicians with balls. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 22 Jul 12 - 06:07 PM ""Go on and on ranting and pointing fingers at the NRA, rednecks and the wild, wild west metality of the U.S.A. Toronto gun violence rages as politicians debate solutions"" Here's another delicious non sequitur, devoid of logic. An incident described as the worst in Toronto's history, which frankly wouldn't qualify as one of the top 100 in the US in the last twenty years, is used to imply that everything in the US is just hunky dory and the NRA is a responsible organisation with the welfare of law abiding citizens as its first priority. Yeah right! In addition, the moon is made of green cheese, Santa is alive and well and abusing elves in Lapland, and money doesn't enter into the NRA's thinking when they promote a two gun society that didn't even exist in the time of William Bonney. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 22 Jul 12 - 06:45 PM Analyst on today's "Meet the Press": "It is absolute orthodoxy within the Democratic Party that they lost the 1994 elections because of [Pres. Clinton's'] ban on assault rifles," which has since been repealed. Get the picture? Americans want their assault rifles! Someone added emphatically: "There will *never* be another gun control law passed by the U.S. Congress." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 22 Jul 12 - 06:51 PM Let me refer latecomers to my post of 1:06 p.m. The Second Amendment is syntactically ambiguous. The Supreme Court has preferred the "liberal" interpretation. If you don't believe me, read the post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jul 12 - 07:44 PM Yo, Gn-ze... So far the only politician that I know of that has come out today against the NRA "with balls" is Senator Feinstein... Go figure... BTW, I somewhat agree with Lighter on the Supreme Court's interpretation... It is well within the confines of "loose constructionism"... The problem here is that in doing so it throws a bone to "conservatives"??? That's the way this court is... It will bounce between "strict" and "loose" construction interpretations of the Constitution and Bill of Rights... 100% politics and 0% honest interpretation... And way too much oberta dicta, especially from Scalia... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jul 12 - 08:13 PM Okay, gnu, if push comes to shove, what I favor is this: Before the law would allow me to take a ton-and-a-half of automobile out on the streets and roads—keeping in mind that someone who does not know how to drive an automobile can do a lot of damage and potentially kill a lot of people before he finally runs into a tree—I was required to get a drivers' license. This was not issued to me until I had taken a written test to show that I knew the traffic laws, and then had taken a drive with a state patrol licensing official, armed with a clip board and pen, at my side as he told me to do certain things such as parallel park, and enter and exit a freeway, and a whole bunch of other things while he wrote notes on the clipboard. After the drive, he noted that all was well, except that when I parallel parked, I had to take two runs at it because on the first one, I had scrubbed a tire against the curb. Not a fatal flaw in my driving skill, but still noted as a bit sloppy. So I was issued a license, which allowed me to herd a potentially dangerous ton and a half of metal around the city and elsewhere. When I bought my two handguns, there was no check as to my criminal record, my sanity, or even if I knew which end of the gun the bullets came out of. When I got my concealed weapons permit down at City Hall, I had to fill out a form. Name, address, the usual stuff. Nothing about criminal record or state of sanity. Or skill with a firearm. One of the blanks on the form asked why I wanted to carry a concealed firearm. I really didn't have any specific reason. I wasn't responsible for transferring a briefcase full of money or jewelry from place to place or anything where I really needed the protection of packing heat. When the clerk saw me pondering over that line, he said, "Oh, most people just put in 'sport and travel.'" So that's what I wrote down. Then I shucked out $5.00 and he issued me the permit. If I'm required to pass a written test and an "in the field" test before I am issued a license to drive—on the basis that the law wants to be sure I won't drive through crowd, kill a lot of people, and come to rest by driving through a plate glass window into a crowded grocery store, I don't see why I am not required to pass a similar test before being allowed to own and carry a device with which I can easily kill or main people with the mere twitch of my index finger. I think we can do a bit better than that, don't you? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Jul 12 - 08:22 PM Obiter dicta (pl.). (There is a blog on the net that makes the error, 'oberta' dicta). Estimates of more than 200,000,000 guns (U.S. government figures) seem to be valid. How can the numbers be reduced? Can the semi-automatics be outlawed? Sadly, I don't see any improvement in the forseeable future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jul 12 - 08:26 PM I don't read blogs... My spelling might not be great but I learned about "oberta dicta" or "dictum" in college... My first degree is, after all, in history and poli-sci... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Jul 12 - 08:42 PM See your handy-dandy legal dictionary- obiter dictum, pl. obiter dicta. But we need more than remarks in passing from the U.S. courts. I own one firearm, on which I just renewed my permit with the Canadian firearms registry. We would hope that the U.S. can gain some control over its firearms, but I am afraid that is a lost cause. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jul 12 - 09:03 PM Doesn't much matter, Q... This ain't a "Ah-ha, gotcha moment"... My observation of the the recent "Citizens United" decision has "oberta dictum" (or whatever spelling you like) written all over it where the court went beyond the issues of the case, much like a legislature, to expand law... The "oberta" means, if memory serves me correct, means "over"... No matter, it has no bearing on what we are talking about here... Yes, the court has been "liberal" (loose constructionism) in pushing politically conservative positions... Very strange... Must be the season of the wit0ch... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 22 Jul 12 - 09:14 PM Don... huh??? I thought I addressed that in my last post. Not quite at the length you just did, but I thought I was fairly clear in my intent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 22 Jul 12 - 09:30 PM Hate to break it to you Bobster but Senator Feinstein has a rarely issued concealed carry permit from San Diego, she packs a lady smith .38 cal ... that is on public record ... so kinda hypocritical I think |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jul 12 - 09:40 PM Hey, if she needs protection and then I understand that... She is a controversial "liberal" senator in a right winged wacko nation... Smart... If I were a senator, I'd pack heat, too... Too many wacko righties out there with guns... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 12 - 11:06 PM Greg F--sorry to be so long in responding. I checked your link, and it led to a page filled with other links rather than the information that you were referring to. I did a search of my own, and found this article, from the New York Times,Homicide Record for 1911 , which said that the homicide rate was higher than at any time in America's past, and gave it as 7.2 per 100k. To further clarify my original statement, which I stand by, is that the homicide rate jumped after 1960, when it was 5.1 per 100k, to 10.2 per 100k in 1980. US Crime Statistics 1960-2010 The Gun Control Act of 1968 was a reaction to an increase in gun related homicides, as embodied in the assassinations, which most of us remember. If you care to look at the numbers, you will note that it didn't seem to have done much good. Current and recent statistics on homicides, firearms related and other, can be accessed here. CDC Injury and Death Statistics and you can break them our in lots of different ways. If you do, you will discover that though the current number of firearms related deaths is about 30k, the number of homicides is about 11k. The other 19k are suicides, which, to be fair, cannot be considered random shootings by wacked out guys with guns. Another fact that you can find, if you want to, is that about 5,500 of those homicides involve an identifiable demographic group that comprises only about 5% of the population. I am not going to mention which one, because, frail soul that I am, I don't want to be called any more names. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 23 Jul 12 - 01:13 AM Hope this is a simple question? It looks like some people are advocating for people to carry firearms into the.atres/cinemas to defend themselves, or if an event like this happens again, the number of casualties would be reduced? Lets imagine there are, say, 10,000 theatres/cinemas x say 360 days per year x say 20 carrying a concealed firearm. That come to 72,000,000 firearms concealed over 1 year. WIll that really make theatres safer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 23 Jul 12 - 02:31 AM Hey, bobert. I've got a question for you. I was reading today about the Colorado shooter, James Holmes. His apartment was rigged with so many booby traps that they had to send in a robot first. He had 6,000 rounds of ammo - and no income. He went into the theater dressed in complicated defensive clothing. My question is, how can a person go crazy so ELABORATELY? You know what I mean? How could he be so nuts and handle so many complicated things at the same time? I find this sort of thing very troubling. We've always had insanity, but... Nothing was said about finding drugs or paraphernalia of any kind in the place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 23 Jul 12 - 02:42 AM That 11:06pm was me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Jul 12 - 03:01 AM "Hate to break it to you Bobster but Senator Feinstein has a rarely issued concealed carry permit from San Diego, she packs a lady smith .38 cal ... that is on public record ... so kinda hypocritical I think" Hypocritical for her to say background checks should be stricter and apply everywhere? Hypocritical for her to say people should not have assault weapons with 100 round magazines? I have no problem with responsible people, reasonably vetted, carrying an appropriate weapon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 23 Jul 12 - 04:55 AM To further clarify my original statement, which I stand by, is that the homicide rate jumped after 1960, when it was 5.1 per 100k, to 10.2 per 100k in 1980. US Crime Statistics 1960-2010 The Gun Control Act of 1968 was a reaction to an increase in gun related homicides, as embodied in the assassinations, which most of us remember. If you care to look at the numbers, you will note that it didn't seem to have done much good The figures on the page you linked to say that the US murder rate is now half what it was in 1980. Which may not be any sort of evidence that gun control legislation did anything, but it does say that there isn't an uncontrolled epidemic of violence requiring everybody to tool up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Jul 12 - 05:21 AM When you look at how hard ordinary artists work without getting fair recognition for their work - Bruce Murdoch being a good case in point. Everybody who has listened knows the guys is terrific and his songs are beautiful - but no one important in the media writes about his work. You can see there is an incentive to do a mark chapman - you get the book deal, the film about your life, the attention from society..... I hate the idea of capital punishment - but I suppose at least Tim McVeigh didn't get to enjoy his notoriety. Mind you a lot of tese guys seem untroubled by the idea of death - many of them end the episode by turning the gun on themselves. So I suppose the capital punishment is really just surrendering to base motives within ourselves. Like the Norwegian President said - we should not let these characters turn US into monsters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:48 AM OK, the headline you have been waiting for. After a mass-shooting at a film theatre, the NRA's solution to our violence problems, folks: Ban the MOVIES. When that flashed up on my screen I thought for sure it was from The Daily Mash or some other spoof site. But no. It's from The New Yorker. (The "Romney Claims Dog Ate Tax Returns For Three Years" is pretty good too.) http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2012/07/nra-proposes-sweepi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:54 AM Egg on face... wooops... it's Borowitz... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:34 AM Why not ban the movies, or at least TONE THEM RIGHT DOWN.... Insatiable, disturbing violence fills the heads of so many children these days, YOUNG children, tiny children, with innocent minds, pretty much 'empty minds' just waiting to be filled with information about this world they've arrived in... We used to fill their minds with Childhood, but now it's filled with Violence and Sex... Most children struggle through *somehow* and don't grow up to start re-enacting their video games or their favourite films... Many children, thankfully, still grow up in countries where bottles of perfume are kept beside the bed, rather than guns.. But SOME children grow up where guns are as natural as breathing, where violent movies are what you watch whilst munching the popcorn, absorbing all the special effects, the blood, the gore, the ripped bodies, the deaths, the evil etc...and some of those children will take the films/video games they are watching absolutely 100% literally....and one day, they will *explode* There are many such Ticking Time-Bombs 'out there' folks, thousands, and ever-increasing... Add to this the stresses and strains that many people are under now, which is going to get a LOT worse, and things will be 'snapping' far more than before.. I'm lucky, I live in a country where most people wouldn't ever dream of having a gun, where it is alien to do so, but gangs, criminals etc, are on the increase and the violence in many cities is worse then it has been in the past...But on the whole, the UK is NOT a place where the average person carries a weapon... From the day the Chinese invented gunpowder TROUBLE was brewing...Since that time millions have lost their lives because of bloody guns..in wars, in hatred, in minds that don't think along 'normal' lines... But just tell me, even though this man obviously has such a mind, what other kinds of minds apathetically accept the growing violence infiltrating their children's minds every single day, without question, without comment, without worry? We are in DEEP shite folks, all around the world and the time truly has come to WAKE UP..... Dan, I'm very thankful your daughter made it through. Much love to her, to you and to all other parents/families affected by yet another tragic tragedy... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:38 AM I have no problem with her carrying. what was hypocritical was saying that no one but police should carry a weapon .. I accept that from many people entitled to their opinion, but give up your permit if you truly believe that. My only point |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Penny S. Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:48 AM There was an USAmerican woman who had lived in London 20 years on a radio phone-in this morning. A Republican. It is, apparently, necessary to have guns to defend against the government when it is not Republican, because Obama has removed freedoms from citizens. Despite frequent questioning, the only such law she could cite was one to limit the amount of ammunition one could buy. She said that, when in the States, she had kept a liquor store, and had shot someone attempting to rob it. The radio guy expressed that he was glad she was not able to carry a gun over here, and she responded with the thought that she would be a danger to those she disagreed with if she did - in a colloquial way. I was left wondering why she was here. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 23 Jul 12 - 09:05 AM Here is the deal, all sensible and existing gun laws are negated by the personal sale loophole. IE Gunshows, internet, ads etc. You can in Colorado contact someone on craigslist, meet them, give them cash and walk away with an AR or Glock ... all legal ... so until someone addresses that, forget it, you have no gun laws. You wonder why the crazies are so well armed. That's why. Anyone in NY or CA that has a concealed carry permit is just fine with me. It is so hard to get, the background checks are so through that I have no issues at all But alas, that ain't the case is it .. when you can order one from the net or walk in a gun show. Me I will arm my kids. they already have more training then most Marines. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 23 Jul 12 - 09:12 AM Yo GUEST, Homicides per 100K in 1911 is a bogus stat... A lot more people would have died from gunshot wounds back then because of primitive medical care... The real stat is "gun-shot victims per 100K"... Yo leeneia, Mental illness is a strange critter... Mentally ill doesn't mean stupid or incompetent... I can't speculate on this wacko other than to, at least for now, have him firmly in the center of wacko-world... BTW, I was a social worker for many years (adult services) and carried an average of 40 clients at any given time that came from Central State Hospital in Petersburg, Va which was a mental health facility... So excuse my politically incorrectness... I never wrote stuff like that in client files but, truth be known??? My 6 co-workers and I used them in the privacy of our office... Kinda MASH talk... We'll just have to see how this one plays out but I don't see any motive that would get this guy outta wacko-world... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 23 Jul 12 - 09:46 AM "The figures on the page you linked to say that the US murder rate is now half what it was in 1980. Which may not be any sort of evidence that gun control legislation did anything, but it does say that there isn't an uncontrolled epidemic of violence requiring everybody to tool up." That's exactly right, Jack. The figures show that today the homicide rate is even lower than it was in 1960. Very much to the disappointment, I am afraid, of both sides in the "gun control" debate. And Bobert, what exactly is bogus about the homicide statistics published in the New York times in 1911? And do you even understand why I posted them? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 23 Jul 12 - 09:54 AM And, Bobert, with due respect, if you really care about the proliferation of guns, why haven't you said a single word to "Old Dude", who has announced that he is in the process of arming his children and giving them commando training? You can't do much about the NRA, or" the politicians" or any of the others that you are so fond of complaining about, but, if you cared to bother, maybe you could talk some sense into "Old Dude". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 23 Jul 12 - 10:07 AM Homicide rates... Do you read for content, Stimz, 'er what??? Go back and reread... It won't take 20 seconds... BTW, Ol-ster and I have gone a few rounds in the past on this issue... He knows exactlt what my positions are... This is about the 2 millionth thread here in Mudville on gun control over that last 10 or so years... BTW, Part B... Ol-ster is on record of supporting laws that would shut down the gun-show loophole and re1quire licensung of handguns... That's not as far as BillD goes but it's one heck of a lot closer to BillD's positions than the NRAers... I'm firmly in BillD's court on handguns... That has been my position going back decades... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 23 Jul 12 - 10:09 AM ""In a unanimous decision, the State Supreme Court backed the appeals court. CU now must join Colorado State University in allowing students to carry licensed concealed weapons on campus, Manley said. "My clients are extremely happy," said Manley. "They will now be able to exercise their constitutional rights to carry on campus.""" There it is folks! The lunatics are now in charge of the f**king funny farm by State Supreme Court decree. Better change that line in your anthem to "Gawd help America"! Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 23 Jul 12 - 10:31 AM ""One hard, cold fact; if they stopped making guns today, there are still over 300 million of them in circulation. Would anyone care to address that?"" It could be done, at least with the law abiding majority. In the UK, a weapons amnesty, combined with a threat of severe punishment after the deadline, took most of the unlicensed guns out of circulation and many licensed guns too. It also cleared a lot of other weapons from Boy Scout sheath knives to machetes, nun-chucks, Samurai swords etc. etc. I realise that it will be more difficult in the USA, but if it isn't at least tried, the end result will be a nation of frightened citizens, afraid to leave their fortified (with the very weapons they are scared of) homes. More and more I thank the providence by which I was born in the UK. Don T |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 23 Jul 12 - 10:33 AM leeneia, I wondered the same thing, how did he afford all that stuff, and how did he obtain it? And how did his mental illness extend so far? I also agree with Lizzie, the films themselves are getting more and more violent and evil, they must be influencing young people's view of the world. Just today, we went to Asda as I wanted to buy my husband a DVD (he's just passed his driving test). We looked at all the films, but they were nearly all horror or grossly violent. It really struck us how horrible the selection was. We need (on both sides of the Pond) to get to grips with the dangerous downward slide of our society into violence and uncontrolled acting-on-impulse. It really, really wasn't like this twenty or so years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stu Date: 23 Jul 12 - 11:30 AM From the UK it is like watching some insane, tragic, mad, ultra violent film where slowly everyone becomes armed, more and more innocents get killed in the crossfire and the entire country seems to degenerate into a madhouse. Damn, you got some good people there who really don't deserve this, and I don't like the idea of my friends living in a society that only sees more guns as the answer to gun ownership and the crime it allows to occur. More guns are NOT the answer. Please see sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 23 Jul 12 - 11:40 AM Bobert and Eliza: thanks for the responses. It's nice talking to you. As for violent movies, etc, keep in mind that they can't get into your life unless you let them. They're just commerce. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 23 Jul 12 - 11:52 AM In the UK, a weapons amnesty, combined with a threat of severe punishment after the deadline, took most of the unlicensed guns out of circulation and many licensed guns too. [...] I realise that it will be more difficult in the USA, but if it isn't at least tried, the end result will be a nation of frightened citizens, afraid to leave their fortified (with the very weapons they are scared of) homes. A national legislated solution obviously isn't going to happen in the US. Ever. It might not be obviously legal to do anything more local either, but a more realistic approach would be for local communities sick of guns and their pervert owners to tell them to get out. If it caught on, that would progressively leave the gun fetishists confined to their own "free" enclaves until they killed each other off in paroxysms of indiscriminate fear. The US is great at sloganizing about local democracy and then making sure it never makes any difference to anything, so that's not a whole lot easier, but surely worth trying, despite shit like that recent University of Colorado decision. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 23 Jul 12 - 12:06 PM Sugarfoot Jack-It's not really like that. If you look at the numbers, violent crime, including homicide(both with and without firearms) in both the US and UK has actually declined substantially. Nobody wants to believe it, but it's true. Eliza--There are a lot of films great films around that are not filled with horror and gross violence. New ones, at that. I am sorry that the selection at Asda was so bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Jul 12 - 12:17 PM I'm fascinated by the thought that gunshot suicides are not "Whacked out nutjobs with guns". I'm equally fascinated by the mindset that equates sex, on the one hand and violence on he other. Repeat after me: "Sex is good, violence is bad". One part of this is very simple. No guns results in no deaths by gunshot. It isn't rocket science. The other part is to question why so many people (largely men) seem to see violence and guns as desirable and necessary - even perhaps part of the phallocracy. See my second paragraph above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stu Date: 23 Jul 12 - 12:28 PM "It's not really like that." It might well be, but is that relevant? Not to the people of Aurora it isn't. Even if violent crime is declining, this obsession with guns and violence is insane, confusing and regressive. It's almost as if US society has settled for the occasional slaughter of the innocents (fast response units everywhere) so a few diehards can cling onto outdated and outmoded ideals formed when the world was a very different place. I realise none of our politicians have much in the way of backbone, but surely the time has come for someone to step up and tackle this utter lack of perspective guns seem to induce in reasonable, sane people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Jul 12 - 01:21 PM On the news this morning, I see a committee is going to study gun violence, with the possible recommendation of more money, more manpower. Just a bandaid for a cancer. More sideline badinage- Bobert, there is no Latin word oberta. I have published work in the botanical field, for which I have had to understand Latin diagnoses (required for all new species of plants). Moreover, and perhaps more pertinent, my son, the lawyer, says you are wrong. Obiter dictum, obiter dicta. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 23 Jul 12 - 01:24 PM Lizzie, you might be interested in reading an op/ed piece I wrote after Columbine: Quiet time for children. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 23 Jul 12 - 02:25 PM The decline in violent crime is kind of is relevant. It didn't just happen, in the US at least, it was the result of years of effort, the investment of significant amounts of money, improved law enforcement, and mostly, recognizing where the problems were and confronting them. And still things aren't what we'd like. They are much better than they were, though-- As far as the Aurora Shootings, call them mass murders or binge killings, or whatever you like--because they are the acts of deranged, but often very intelligent minds, they are unique and infrequent. So it's difficult to anticipate them, and nearly impossible develop preventative strategies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 23 Jul 12 - 02:26 PM Who cares, Q, as long as folks understand the concept... When mis-spelling becomes a capital offense then I'll work my dictionary harder... BTW, my spell-check doesn't much like your spelling either as when I typr your spelling in I get the red squiggly lines under it... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 23 Jul 12 - 02:43 PM Apologies for this long post, but there are points to be made which can't be said briefly.... in fact, even what I have typed at length doesn't cover all the points, exceptions and examples. It is only an outline... I am glad to see that Bobert agrees with my basic ideas.... and I see in the news that various well-known folks are cautiously saying something somewhat similar- though this is obviously a hot-button item. I also find it interesting that many in the UK can't comprehend why we HAVE so many guns and such a permissive attitude about them. We can even ask what it is in the mind that make one person say "get rid of most guns" while another says "I'm gonna arm MYSELF and be as ready as I can ready for any event/." It is obviously 'culture', but that doesn't say much, as those tow folks who disagree may have lived in the same neighborhood for 40 years. My own opinion is that it is similar to being fascinated with cars, rockets, chemistry, spelunking....or a dozen other things which may be sometimes dangerous, but interesting enough that folks rationalize about their own competence to explore and pursue them. We don't 'seriously' limit the rights to explore caves or climb mountains, but we DO try to limit access to various chemicals and make rules about who can drive what kind of car...and where. What is the difference? Some activities are more inherently dangerous to others... as in driving fast cars in the wrong places. In the case of guns, however, the **basic concept** is to have a way to be able to kill or injure 'something' at a distance and/or with less danger to one's self. Even though many assertions are made about 'self-defense', it is pretty clear that guns were developed largely to combat 'enemies'... just as most other weapons were. The obvious uses for hunting and self-defense are a side benefit. Now....in this day and age, hunting is a necessity to a far smaller % of the population than it used to be, and is often only a supplement or 'hobby'.... but let's assume that it still falls into a 'reasonable' set of uses for guns. Military and police uses are another matter... they involve sort of a circular argument. BECAUSE there have been and still are individuals, groups and countries which seek to control and harass others, we must allow those who protect the... ummm... 'good guys'... to have access to at least the same weapons as the 'bad guys'. Thus, the very existence of guns means that someone 'trained & sane & competent' needs to have them also. In the UK, somehow, while the police and military do have access, weapons are not usually carried as a regular thing. Somehow, this seems like a fairly sensible situation. Suppose that in the UK there DOES occur a situation where criminal, terrorists etc. acquire many more weapons? Is the solution to allow the general populace to arm themselves? Or to have the police routinely be armed? Note...*IF* the police go armed, there WILL be cases where criminals are able to disarm them and acquire MORE guns. *IF* the general populace acquires guns,.....well, there you are. I will bet there are many, many folks in the UK who you would not want having guns! Idiots are not restricted to the U.S.! So... my final point. Dan (olddude) asserts the he is well-trained and licensed in NY state and 'other places' to carry various weapons. I have no reason to doubt him... nor the training & abilities of several others here who defend THEIR ownership of guns......but my question earlier still stands - what is the relationship between well-trained and licensed and competent and NEED? Dan has never quite said WHY is is licensed and trained.... and perhaps there are good reasons which is none of my business. He may be involved in issues which make being legally armed relevant. I do not require an explanation if this is the case..... but... he says he intends to arm his family! And I seriously doubt that this is anything more than 'concern for their self-protection'. THIS is the attitude which worried me. I am quite aware the 'something' might happen to any one of us in which we 'might' be in danger, but in my adult lifetime, it hasn't... and I know almost no one who tells of NEEDING a gun for some emergency. I maintain that IF there had been 67 people in that theater in Colorado who were armed, there is a good chance that in the dark confusion, some of them would likely have shot the wrong person(s)...even if it was just 'bad aim'. The more guns, the more likely someone will do something inappropriate with them!!!!! When I say "we need to do something or the problem will gradually get worse.", I mean just that... and MORE people deciding, like olddude, to arm themselves and family and friends... and with bigger guns... will just make **potential** killers ,who are as intelligent as this one, see more opportunities to surprise us in 'interesting' ways. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Jul 12 - 02:47 PM Funny, my spellcheck doesn't like either Bobert (or my last name!). ----------------- I agree with Stim that it is near impossible to deal with deranged, intelligent minds. These individuals are not in crime registers and often seem normal (if perhaps loners) to us. We can't demand that everyone has periodic mental examinations. Weapons control doesn't help much since it is easy for the intelligent mad to fashion a murderous device using household and farm chemicals and fertilizer, even if guns are forbidden (moreover, a number of hobby metal workers I know would have no problem whatever in making a viable gun). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 23 Jul 12 - 03:08 PM Thank you, BillD. Agreed and well put as always. From this morning's news: In recent history, many acts of spectacular gun violence have been linked not so much by the presence of assault rifles but rather by large gun magazines that allow shooters to fire longer without reloading. The current investigation will determine if this shooting continued that trend; some evidence suggests it does. The defunct Federal Assault Weapons Ban limited most clip sizes to 10 rounds; police say the theater shooter had a .223-caliber Smith & Wesson AR-15 assault-style rifle with a drum clip that could hold up to 100 rounds and shoot as many as 60 times in a minute. Read more at the LATimes. In all the years of my dad and mom's families, there were only two times, that I know of, when a gun was NEEDED for self-defence from another person. The only other times they were NEEDED and used was to put down an injured animal, usually stock, i.e. cattle, horses, etc. So guns were around and available, even when I was growing up, but very rarely needed. I feel no need for any these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Jul 12 - 03:45 PM Q - that is really quite silly. If anyone wanting an explosive device had to make it, and everyone wanting a gun had to make it, there would be far fewer of either about. And quite a few of the explosive devices would not go off, as wannabee terrorists have found. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 23 Jul 12 - 04:38 PM Richard, It's not that hard to make a firearm, as you can see here How to make a shotgun at home for $7, and, contrary to your thought about improvised explosive devices, they are quite effective--it is estimated that they caused 60% of the civilian casualties in Afghanistan in 2011. IEDs in Afghanistan If you want to do it, you can, and at a surprisingly low cost. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 23 Jul 12 - 04:54 PM Thank you Guest Stim, You're quite right of course, there ARE some good films about. We may go to HMV tomorrow, as they have feature films, TV series, geographical DVDs, things like Men in Black and various musicals. But even there, the Horror section is huge. I suppose it's what sells best, as they have to make money. But this killer in USA was obviously influenced by The Dark Knight Rises. The Bulger case here in UK was perpetrated by two very young offenders who murdered a tiny boy. They were copying a horror film, called Child's Play. It's a combination of a seriously mentally ill person, a catalyst (media horror and violence) and the availability of weapons, that end in tragedy. All three factors must be addressed in future to prevent such terrible events. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Jul 12 - 05:10 PM And that was just one video of several. A gun is just a pipe and a striker. And anyone who can read will have enough sense to know that the shell can't be the latest high-energy type (which could shatter the pipe), but the cartridge must be filled with suitable loads (I thought anyone with high-school chemistry would know how easy it is to make old-fashioned gunpowder from readily available materials). Bombs are incredibly easy to make. Restrictive laws only discourage the sane. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 23 Jul 12 - 05:38 PM Bill My kids learn the stuff only because I was an instructor for a whole bunch of good guys, not because I was or am some military survival nut. I taught them because it is great exercise and a heck of a lot more practical then yoga and it is what I know. We enjoyed shooting targets also and still do. None of that negates my wanting them to carry, however, it is up to them. I don't want another repeat of what happened and as a dad, I want them protected, if that is what it takes then so be it .. I accept that others don't agree and I respect that |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 23 Jul 12 - 05:59 PM ""In recent history, many acts of spectacular gun violence have been linked not so much by the presence of assault rifles but rather by large gun magazines that allow shooters to fire longer without reloading."" Anders Breivik managed to shoot 69 people with normal weapons which had to be regularly re-loaded. So it seems to me that he hardly needed large magazines. What would have prevented many of those deaths is the unavailability of the weapons and/or ammunition. Large magazines are simply a bonus for the mass murderer. Given that he can apparently, in the US at least, buy as many guns as he can carry, or in fact more, if he so chooses. ""I also find it interesting that many in the UK can't comprehend why we HAVE so many guns and such a permissive attitude about them."" Let's face it Bill, we in the UK only have to compare our nationalgun casualties with each of at least a dozen US cities, and we are astounded that you people cannot see what guns are doing to you and your children. We are even more astounded at the way in which a whole civilised nation has been brainwashed into acquiescence to a hard core of gun nuts, who only want the money they earn by supplying the means to kill your countrymen, and don't give a tuppenny damn about how many of you end up dead. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:28 PM I know you mean well Don, but its quite obvious a lot of generally quite sensible people can't see our point of view, its like Northern Ireland, or muslim people thinking they'll go to heaven if they wash their feet five times a day - they believe different basic stuff to us. What i think should happen in the wake of this awful tragedy - the Friends of the Gun and the Enemies of the Gun should sit down together and , and think hard about what they Both agree could be done to lessen the danger - however small that area of agreement is - and they should do it. Very effectively. And that would be a start. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:30 PM BTW, I just the photos of James Holmes in court today and I'm sticking with my diagnosis: wacko, 1st class... More than likely schizophrenic and very possibly paranoid schizophrenic... They'll get him on meds for the trail and he'll seem less wacko-ed out but he'll just be a wacko on meds... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:36 PM A gun is just a pipe and a striker. Righto, Q - and how many people do you think he would have killed if armed with a pipe and a striker type zip gun?? Jesus wept, man - have some sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:54 PM That is the problem Don, if the politicians will not address it, there isn't enough cops to address it, so what does the honest citizen do. Watch their kids get killed. some arm themselves everyone from sportsmen to cops screaming about the gun laws. We have 20,000 on the books and all of them negated by the gun show law or private transfer law ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:09 PM Looking at that 2nd Amendment the thing that sticks out for me is that it does not in fact talk about "the right of people to bear arms" as something that shall not be abrided. It talks about "the right of the people". The difference which that definite article makes is that it fairly clearly indicates that it is talking in collective rather than individual terms, tying in with the reference to "a properly regulated militia". But of course the actual intended meaning of the amendment back in the 18th century is irrelevant. What determines these things is the politics and social culture of early 21st century America - and it seems pretty clear that, so far as this issue goes, this is pretty irrevocably set in a pattern that to most people outside the country is not actually sane. It's sad but that's how it is. It's not really something where outsiders have a relevant say. Rather like slavery back in the 19th century, and subsequent institutionalised racism, it's something Americans will have to sort out for themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:22 PM There was a study that came out about 15 years ago that showed that more people who own guns are killed by guns than folks that don't own guns... That study got some air time for a day or two until the NRA squashed it... The NRA is more powerful than any lobby in America and more powerful than any politician, the president included... I mean, my hat is off to them... They have become the ultimate veto-er... I mean, I bet God is afraid of them... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:28 PM Again, I'm no lawyer, but "the people" is an abstraction. "The people" can't literally bear arms, only individual people can bear arms. And which *individual* people are to be prohibited from doing so? Those not enrolled in a "well-organized militia"? That's one interpretation, but it's no different from the "restrictive" interpretation I posted yesterday. Which brings us right back to where we started. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:57 PM Watching the various news programs...I see people making the same point *I* have said for years: Our 'founding fathers' would have been appalled at the types of weapons we have today, and would NEVER have written a 2nd amendment that condones plain citizens having them at home under the bed. They had MUSKETS! The framers of the Constitution wanted a system to serve the country in times of need... a militia/military! Not a bunch of trigger-happy fools obsessed with being macho! That 2nd amendment needs to be totally revised to reflect reality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:00 PM Yeah, Lighter, wish the authors of the Bill of Rights had spent a little more time on the 2nd amendment... Had they seen the future, they most certainly would have... This amendment has turned out to be the boobie-trap of all time... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:50 PM It's true: the framers of the Constitution had no idea of what 20th & 21st century firearms would be like. If they had, they might have worded it better. On the other hand, they were big believers in the rationality of man. So there's no telling what they'd have done, even if they'd lived through the past 200+ years. Odds are they'd be as divided as we are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 23 Jul 12 - 10:57 PM Hell ya Bobster, more people are killed with them that own them. why because 99.9% shouldn't be allowed near them .. like some drivers I know. But ya see we have no laws that work and no politicians have the balls to say this is all insane so .. our kids get shot while going to a movie ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 23 Jul 12 - 11:54 PM Jefferson on gun control T jefferson"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Cesare Beccaria, On Crimes and Punishment, quoted by Thomas Jefferson in Commonplace Book |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 24 Jul 12 - 12:31 AM I saw the bastard on TV today, to me, he is playing a game and enjoyed his 15 minutes of fame. His lawyer you bet said the only thing you got going now is play the insane act. I will hold judgement and wait till the headshrinkers come back with an opinion. concealed carry license are ready next week already pre-approved by the proper authorities and mine is approved for that state also. Yea I do have pull so what!. Two mass murders 15 miles apart in what .. 15 years or so ... they are living in a looney bin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 12 - 12:33 AM YOU ARE A SICK COUNTRY |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stu Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:06 AM " I will bet there are many, many folks in the UK who you would not want having guns! Idiots are not restricted to the U.S.!" No argument with that, and it's why we're happy not to have the country awash with guns. Good post BillD. Also, making this kid out to be some sort of lunatic is dangerous' it might be a comfort to you think that but there's not a shred of evidence so far. The fact is, normal people can have a bad day, feel constantly put upon and if you've got a gun it's a damn sight easier to go out and slaughter innocents than it is if you've got a knife. Especially if you can buy them over the counter, like a bag of twinkies. This kid may not be a nutter. He may be normal, and snapped. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:33 AM There seems to some of us over here to be a sort of resigned attitude among many of you over there, that guns are a sort of law of nature - like the weather and the seasons; which we all have to learn to live with, even if every now & then they get out of hand and produce tornadoes and tsunamis and shoot-em-ups. [I know we have copycattedly had some of the latter ~ Dunblane, Hungerford: but ours are at least product of outright disobedience to our basic laws, while yours result from misuse of the rights conferred by your laws: an important distinction, I should say.] They aren't really any sort of natural law, you know. With the will & the organisation you could bring them under control. But is the will there among enough of you? The evidence appears to be that it is not. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 Jul 12 - 05:09 AM Guest, 22 July 11.06. Your statistics are wrong. The group you wish to vilify comprises 12.8 % of US population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:17 AM McG... Yes, we are resigned to seeing the NRA'ers win forever... It's interesting that when the American people are asked questions by pollsters about various changes to the laws we find very high numbers for those changes but when it is boiled down to the single phrase "gun control" the numbers drop to around 50/50... Like I have said, we'll get around to making these changes when a "cell" of wacko Islamics "legally" purchase a truck load of assault rifles, take over a rich (mostly Republican) town, shoot up a boat load of rich Republicans and hold the town hostage... When that happens then the NRA will lose its stranglehold on our country... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:29 AM What has the local and wider response to these killings been? Is olddude a lone nutcase or part of a trend towards murderous insanity? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:00 AM Yea Jack I am a total nutcase, I embrace my nutcase ... I run it up a flag pole and salute it. Wish you all the best always |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:17 AM Click Here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:19 AM Actually, Jack, Ol'ster is for gun control... If I have it correct, he would close the gun-show loophole and he would require, at the very least, folks owning handguns to have to have them registered... Those two changes would make a world of difference... I would go a lot further but ya' gotta give credit where credit is due... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:28 AM I'd guess that most people, in the US as here, would be more worried about sharing a cinema with dozens of trigger-happy armed vigilantes high on collective panic than they would be by the prospect of a visit from a mass murderer. Is that starting to happen, in Denver or elsewhere? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:33 AM I embrace my nutcase ... I run it up a flag pole and salute it. That says it all really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: SINSULL Date: 24 Jul 12 - 10:18 AM An arrest here in Maine and the discovery of a house and car full of weapons. The gentleman claims he was at the Batman premier in Portland with a gun but didn't use it. sigh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 24 Jul 12 - 10:43 AM I was GUEST 11:06, Jack, and I wasn't wrong, I was using one or two more qualifiers in the search tool(I forget which number I finally posted)--one of them was "male" and the other was "under age 30". Using geographic qualifiers(which the website doesn't provide), it is possible to "pinpoint" the areas where these crimes occur (for some reason, it took law enforcement statisticians years to figure to do that). In one particular year, about 20% of the school related homicides in the US were connected with one particular school. Anyone that knows America will not be surprised to know that when efforts were made to look into this situation, there were angry protests from parents, students, and teachers from the school, who felt that their school was being unfairly singled out for criticism. And so it goes... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: saulgoldie Date: 24 Jul 12 - 10:50 AM Whatever the laws and interpretation of the second ammendment, it remains infallibly true that if there is no gun present, then no one will be hurt by guns. Incontrivertable, a tautology. Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 24 Jul 12 - 11:19 AM McGrath...could be UKers don't hold the monopoly on irony re' olddude's quote you used. It's so nice, as an American, to read of the absolute certainty some of you across the pond have posted about us and how we feel and think. Truly enlightening. (FYI - that's sarcasm.) If any are interested, there is an interesting interview HERE Columbine Survivor On Dealing With Trauma by Ryan Warner Produced by Zachary Barr Unless you were in that Aurora movie theater when the bullets started flying, you can't really know what it was like. Yet trauma of this magnitude and, hopefully, healing from it, are experiences others have had, including survivors of the Columbine shooting in 1999. We're going to talk with one of them now. Craig Scott was in the school's library, the scene of the most carnage. His sister Rachel, who was outside, was the first to be killed. Scott speaks with Colorado Matters host Ryan Warner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Paul Date: 24 Jul 12 - 11:48 AM For what it's worth, katlaughing, we are not, never have been, and never will be 'UKers' Referring to us such just increases our contempt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stu Date: 24 Jul 12 - 12:11 PM "It's so nice, as an American, to read of the absolute certainty some of you across the pond have posted about us and how we feel and think. Truly enlightening. Some of us genuinely give a shit. I've good friends in the US and it's a tragedy to see this madness continue. Like watching a best mate self-destruct in front of your very eyes. Perhaps it is worth taking in good faith at least some of the concerns of people who know what's it like to live without guns everywhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 12 - 12:28 PM Exaggeration for effect isn't the same as irony. A fervent belief that gun worship is at the heart of patriotism is pretty evidently one that a significant section of Americans hold. olddude may not actually hold it - but he summed it up pretty well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Jul 12 - 01:02 PM Kat can call me a UKer if she likes - quite a useful usage, sometimes expressed on threads IIRC as Yookers: as distinct from Yoosers, which some of us conversely call u-guize. Can't see any occasion for Paul to be so touchy about it. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 12 - 01:48 PM Maybe better than being called a "Brit". Roll on the day when neither term will be relevant... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 24 Jul 12 - 02:07 PM Ya know what Jack, the feeling is mutual. So insult away because I consider it a compliment coming from you .. ya bobster you are the only one getting what I said, close the gun shows, do not allow private transfers without full background checks and 90% of the problem goes away. No one will do that however because of votes .. police scream it, sportsmen scream it and to no avail. Now what you folks wish to do when you go out to a theater or dinner or shopping mall, I could care less. You handle it as you see fit. Me I do the same |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 24 Jul 12 - 02:13 PM olddude, you are not alone. I believe the young should be taught how to handle and use a gun safely, since there is no way that the 200,000,000 guns in the U. S. will ever be eliminated. Knowledge is an important step in defense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 24 Jul 12 - 02:22 PM To move for a moment to the perpetrator... I understand that the State of Colorado does in fact have Capital Punishment, but that only one person has been executed since 1977 (I may not have this quite correct). If the gunman is found to be mentally ill, what would be done with him? And what would be the attitude of Americans in that case? And would everyone demand that he suffer the Death Penalty if he is NOT in fact insane? Here in UK of course we no longer execute, and the criminally insane are put in secure mental hospitals (not a prison). I'd be interested to hear your views, USA-ers! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 24 Jul 12 - 02:23 PM absolutely correct Q We teach our kids what they need in life, we give them the best education, teach them love and compassion, teach them to work hard and to love God ... and, we teach them that there is evil people in this world also and you need the skills to protect not only yourself but others also. That is what I always did and now still do |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 12 - 03:13 PM olddude's suggested reforms sound basic commonsense, with which only some kind of nut could disagree. So how can it be that "No one will do that however because of votes... police scream it, sportsmen scream it and to no avail"? Are the nuts really in a majority in the USA, so that it's only their votes that matter? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bettynh Date: 24 Jul 12 - 03:14 PM Eliza, two cases come to mind when I think of this. John Hinkley shot President Reagan and several others to impress Jodi Foster, the actress. He has spent time in a psychiatric institution, and now gets to visit his parents every month unaccompanied (but with a GPS ankle bracelet). Mark David Chapman killed John Lennon. He planned carefully although his reasons seem insane. He is in isolation in a prison. Yoko Ono has responded to each of his parole hearings by opposing his release. He is in isolation primarily for his own safety. The police seem to be carefully documenting this guy's planning, so I'd guess they're trying hard to argue that he wasn't insane enough to just be institutionalized. Cases involving the death penalty are horrendously expensive and would give this person a huge platform to act out on. My guess is they'll go the same route as with Chapman, offering him life in prison for passing on the death penalty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 24 Jul 12 - 03:39 PM I believe the young should be taught how to handle and use a gun safely, since there is no way that the 200,000,000 guns in the U. S. will ever be eliminated. Knowledge is an important step in defense. It's a totally UNimportant step. Next to useless. I know how to make bombs - the sort of IEDs used in Afghanistan. Made quite a few of them when I was a student, from basic chemicals. Mainly just for the hell of it and to produce a louder bang than any firecracker I could buy; perhaps about the same explosive power as the thing the CIA used to assassinate Walter Rodney. They worked 100% reliably and would easily scale up to something that would take out a building. (I later read the US Army Improvised Munitions Handbook and realized that I'd done quite a lot of it practically already). Now tell me how knowing any of that makes me one bit safer against somebody planting a pipebomb. (Somebody did, within lethal range of me, once - it got defused before I ever knew it existed). Now what you folks wish to do when you go out to a theater or dinner or shopping mall, I could care less. Most folks are going to go out a lot less if their home town is undergoing a zombie apocalypse with everybody carrying weapons because they're scared shitless of everybody else. The big winners from US gun paranoia are pizza delivery firms and Netflix. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 24 Jul 12 - 03:51 PM So... you think trying to limit gun shows is the ways to go? Do you have ANY idea what you are up against? Last night on CurrentTV (the admittedly liberal channel partially owned by Al Gore) Jennifer Granholm showed the links: this guy, George-Kollitides, who used to run Cerberus Capital Management, and is now head of New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, is now head of The Freedom Group, who are buying up weapons companies...(read it ALL). In the meantime, guys like Bob Brown of Soldier of Fortune magazine are connected in various way with the above groups.... and ALL of them contribute heavily to election campaigns which agree to oppose ALL gun laws...including gun shows! Note, olddude... New York State Rifle & Pistol Association is now run by one of those dedicated to NO restrictions...let's see if your vaunted tough laws last a few more years! Also...note the relationships between all those and Stephen Feinberg who is involved with Cerberus Capital Management. " Steve and Gisela Feinberg are prolific donors to the Republican Party and related organizations." So, you see? All the money, all the politics, all the ownership of firearms manufacturers, all the 'sports' gun groups who are supporting each other? Make a guess where the NRA fits into the equation! (Statistics say 20-30 MORE were shot and several killed since I saw that show yesterday)...and YOU, Dan, are gonna cope by you & YOUR family carrying MORE weapons? Pardon me while I laugh hollowly!~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 24 Jul 12 - 03:57 PM (I tried to find a video of the program I saw, but they don't seem to host all the shows) Current TV, since Keith Olbermann left, is not seen by nearly as many as MSNBC and CNN, but they do some good work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:05 PM He certainly looks pretty mentally disturbed, for what that's worth, which isn't much. Even with insanity there's a kind of rationale for something like this, and the important thing should be trying to identify what kind of factors could have led up to it,in the hope of trying to prevent something like this happening again. Thinking in terms of death penalties and so forth just gets in the way of that, and focuses attention on stuff that is essentially irrelevant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:28 PM Thank you Bettynh for that info. - two very different outcomes. McGrath, I only posed my questions because many Americans, both on this thread and in the News, have been baying for the gunman to be given the Death Penalty. I was interested to learn how they view such insane crimes. Understandably they're incensed and vengeful, but, as you so rightly point out, it's better to try to understand how this came about with a view to preventing such things in future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:35 PM Are the nuts really in a majority in the USA, Damn near, Kevin, Damn near. And I speak from personal experience. Have ya read Idiot America yet? it would be instructive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:45 PM it's better to try to understand how this came about with a view to preventing such things in future We already have all the knowledge we need. - elaborate systems of psychotic delusion involving very complicated planning have been documented for 200 years - many such cases involve determined, intelligent and effective concealment of any problem - violent outbursts are sometimes predictable and containable but the most extremely violent ones aren't - what makes a violent outburst really deadly is access to lethal weaponry, and the more lethal the weaponry the more deadly the outcome. The last factor is the only one subject to societal intervention. In most societies the desirability of that intervention isn't an issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:49 PM Thanks, MtheGM...anyone who knows me, knows I did not use "UKers" in any pejorative way. Good thing I didn't use "Yookers" as I did think about it! Duly noted...don't use "UKers," again! FWIW, I am in Colorado, raised by second-generation Colorado parents, and I abhor the death penalty. I might feel differently if it were one of my family, but mostly I feel sadness and pity that someone thinks such violence as Aurora are answers to whatever conflicts they struggled with. Likewise, I do not see the death penalty as an anything but an Old Testament kind of action. Oh, and FWIW, I live in one of the most conservative parts of the state and I don't see "gun freaks" running around all over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 24 Jul 12 - 05:20 PM Conversation: X: "He's not insane. He knew exactly what he was doing. He playing crazy so they'll let him walk." Y: "If they think he's crazy, he'll go to a barred nuthouse for the criminally insane for the rest of life. He's not walking anywhere." X: "A smart lawyer can get him off on a technicality." As for passing new laws and enforcing old ones to prevent *this* kind of a crime, good luck! Holmes apparently violated no law till he set his booby traps and opened fire in the theater. Closing the gun-show loophole would be a great idea, but it wouldn't prevent *this* kind of deranged crime. Roughly 200,000,000 legitimate gun owners in the U.S. Mean number of mass shootings annually : maybe 1. Or fewer. No conceivable non-totalitarian policy can prevent such a statistically tiny "crime rate." And for you totalitarians, your favorite kind of government would have to face down 200,000,000 gun owners if it tried to ban all guns. Not the best way to go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 Jul 12 - 05:25 PM 300 (calibre) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jul 12 - 05:45 PM No one is talking about taking away "all your guns", Lightman... Not even BillD and he's probably the most pro-gun-control advocate here... BTW, had Holmes had an Arab last name his behaviors would have had him on a watch list... Weird behaviors, i.e. ordering 6000 rounds of ammo, regardless of ones last name, should warrant a phone call... And why did Holmes have all that SWAT team garb sent with "2 Day Delivery"??? Another red flag... The guy at the gun shop thought he was wacko... More red flags... The guy who owns the shooting club thought Holmes was a wacko... Red flags, red flags and more red flags... Here we are spending 100s of billion$$$ on DHS yet good ol' American sounding names slip thru the cracks yet we have Arabs arrested for plots that were dreamed up by the FBI in stings and Arabs arrested for going to paint-ball centers??? Something is terribly messed up here... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:04 PM Is ordering 6000 rounds of ammo actually weird by mountain-state standards? A target shooter could surely blow off 100 a day with no trouble. The problem with Bobert's "red flags" is that none of them is individually all that strange. Collectively they are, but who'd want to live in a regime that imposed a level of surveillance thorough enough to match separate transactions like that? Paranoids can be very damn smart. But it doesn't always take a huge amount of smarts to conceal a mental state so bizarre that a normal person would never imagine anyone having it. Who could have predicted what this guy did? Kip Kinkel psychiatric evaluation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip_Kinkel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:23 PM It ouht to be easy enough to make it illegal to send ammunition by mail order or similar. And that wouldn't in any way interfere with any "right to bear arms". In fact it would probably help gun shops cross counter sales. Though I suppose "easy enough" might not be the right term in an American context whe it comes to any kind of restriction of this trade. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:24 PM Read carefully, Bobert. And don't confuse me with the large numbers of voters who think Obama's gunning for their roscoes right now. From a real newspaper: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2012/0723/Colorado-shooting-Why-calling-Obama-anti-gun-is-smart-politics "Now the argument by gun-rights advocates is this: If Obama is reelected, he will have no more elections to worry about, and then he will show his true colors on guns. This was the message promoted by NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre at the Conservative Political Action Conference last February. " 'All that first-term lip service to gun owners is just part of a massive Obama conspiracy to deceive voters and hide his true intentions to destroy the Second Amendment in his second term,' Mr. LaPierre said to thunderous applause." Note the audience-friendly phrase, "massive Obama conspiracy." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:29 PM And as usual, mass shootings lead to bigger gun sales: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/gun-sales-aurora-colorado-shooting-spike-tuscon-161409369--finance.html 43% doesn't sound like a meaningless coincidence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:02 PM Everyone seems to agree there's never going to be a shortage of terrorists and wackos... and that we **usually** can't identify them before they do something crazy, no matter how we look for 'red flags'. It was not illegal for Holmes to buy all that stuff, and he had no criminal record. What can we DO except make it harder for wackos to obtain stuff to do mass murder? Look...babies will always chew on stuff, so we monitor kids toys and **regulate** things that might harm them! The point being, we don't NEED lead paint and small, breakable parts on kids toys. Society also doesn't NEED many of the categories of guns and ammo they can now buy...or steal... easily! Regulation of serious weapons should not be an issue! It's just that these are BIG BOY'S toys, and there is too much money at stake! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:03 PM Exactly, Lightman... I have pointed out here several times that no politician is going to go up against the NRA, especially during a re-election campaign... And, yeah, the NRA loves these shootings... Can't get enough of 'um... If the NRA had it their way they'd have one every 6 months... I mean, let's get real... Where does it gets the vast war chest it has to wipe out any candidate who suggests any sane gun control legislation??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:05 PM Now, since we have passed 300 posts, and many will be just loading the last 50, I am reposting my links about all the connections between gun lobbies and politics....it is scary reading! ------------------------------------------------------------- So... you think trying to limit gun shows is the ways to go? Do you have ANY idea what you are up against? Last night on CurrentTV (the admittedly liberal channel partially owned by Al Gore) Jennifer Granholm showed the links: this guy, George-Kollitides, who used to run Cerberus Capital Management, and is now head of New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, is now head of The Freedom Group, who are buying up weapons companies...(read it ALL). In the meantime, guys like Bob Brown of Soldier of Fortune magazine are connected in various way with the above groups.... and ALL of them contribute heavily to election campaigns which agree to oppose ALL gun laws...including gun shows! Note, olddude... New York State Rifle & Pistol Association is now run by one of those dedicated to NO restrictions...let's see if your vaunted tough laws last a few more years! Also...note the relationships between all those and Stephen Feinberg who is involved with Cerberus Capital Management. " Steve and Gisela Feinberg are prolific donors to the Republican Party and related organizations." So, you see? All the money, all the politics, all the ownership of firearms manufacturers, all the 'sports' gun groups who are supporting each other? Make a guess where the NRA fits into the equation! (Statistics say 20-30 MORE were shot and several killed since I saw that show yesterday)...and YOU, Dan, are gonna cope by you & YOUR family carrying MORE weapons? Pardon me while I laugh hollowly!~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:48 PM These statistics tell an intriguing story: FBI crime report stats 2011 The murder rate in the US dropped by 4% between 2010 and 2011. Except in small towns, where it went up by 18%, and overall in the Midwest, up by 0.6%. I would expect those to be exactly the places where the NRA's message is most listened to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:55 PM Eliza if there were ever a time that I wished I could support the death penalty it would be now, But NO - death penalty is nothing more than vengeance it is not justice .. ME I would lock him up and 24 hours a day he would have to watch home video's of those he killed for the rest of his life. That would make sense |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:16 PM Two deaths where the boyfriend covered their girls to protect them. Both guys died protecting their girls. I would much rather have seen one of them highly trained and armed and put one through the creeps head. Nope, they just die being a human shield. Every one of these situation that is what we keep reading .. you folks handle things your way, I will mine. I am gone from the thread so insult away. I can take it |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:27 PM Bad idea, Ol-ster... I mean, more bullets in a theater wasn't what was needed... Fewer is what was needed... The guy who was at the Gabby Gifford's shooting that went to his car and retrieved his gun thought thru the scenario and deducted that it was best not to use his gun... Yeah, we all would love to think that we could have made a difference but when we have an entire movie house packing heat and something like this happens it's going to be one heck of a lot worse than what we ended up with... Very few people are highly trained - I mean, highly trained - to be able to interpret everything that is happening around them, no matter how well their intentions may be... This claim that guns are saving lives in America is beyond bogus... It's killing the heck out of us... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:07 PM The last thing a trained lawman would do is use a gun in a crowded situation. That is not the sort of thing olddude is talking about. His objective is to teach the safe use and care of firearms in a society where guns are and will remain abundant. Not pertinent to the theme of the thread, but posts have become scattergun in content, so I might as well add a few crime statistics. Gary LaFree, a criminology professor at Univ. Maryland, says the U.S. is experiencing the lowest crime levels since WW2. Factors include an aging population (younger people commit more crimes), increased immigration (immigrants commit fewer crimes), police are targeting problems and looking for solutions. News, MWSNBC; other sources. Year-to-year statistics are unreliable; long term swings should be looked for. Some suggest, however, that the drop in crime may have bottomed out. There are several explanations for the rise in rural crime, "convergence" of non-metropolitan and metropolitan life styles being a major cause. See http://www.equotient.net/papers/crime.pdf Across the border, Canada is experiencing its lowest crime levels since 1972. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:11 PM An outsider's view. In the course of my life I have come in contact with guns. I was about 9 or 10 when I was taught to use a .22 single-shot rifle (fired shorts). Along with that went gun safety--basic stuff: don't carry a gun (loaded or not) over a fence; if it has a safety, use it; unless you are hunting, there's no need to have the rifle (gun) with a round chambered while you move about; do not point a gun at anything you do not mean to kill; if you cannot perfectly identify what you are shooting at you may just have killed someone you love; if you ain't hungry, why did you kill it?, stuff like that. I used rifles after that, but only for target shooting: can on a fence post, etc. Then the militia came along and I learned to use an FN C-1 (NATO rifle for which I can still recall the stats). A few years after I was out with a few friends and we were hunting. My buddies (two of them) were to the east and we were going north. We'd agreed to keep apace, so we went as an ell with the 90 degree corner missing. I saw a brightly coloured bird (yellow, orange or red), shades of bright blue and because one of my friends tied his own fishing flies, I aimed at the head of the bird with a Vostok .22--maybe the best open sight of the time, and shot. When I walked about 85' or so and picked up the little body--shot through the head--I felt ashamed of myself. But not as ashamed as when I shot three raccoons. And that's another 'true confession'. Fact is, people who have and use guns do so for varied reasons: curiousity, hunting, target shooting, killing. For me it was always curiousity. I had two guns aimed at me from within a yard. (Three feet.) I have no shame in telling you that both experiences scared the shit outta me. And in both experiences I was thinking I could kill the person pointing the gun at me. The problem in both cases was money and not power. IMO, if you think you can beat a bullet, do so. Otherwise, don't. Trust me, there is a time between fifty smiles of love and fifty miles of hate. The raccoons died because I shot them: each one. I shot the children. That is when I quit killing things. I have since been hit so hard I wished I was unconscious, but I wasn't. And hit so hard I was, unconscious, and was. Now, despite I was once was and did, I won't anymore. I love you, and that's all that needs be said. PS I think that anyone who carries a piece is a chickenshit (no offense). OH, I meant to say that after you kill something, you feel like shit for damned near all the rest of your life. ################################## There are three times I killed things to kill them and thus feed people. That was then, and this is now. There is nothing admirable about death. It is ugly, whether or not you caused it. The are but two ends to life, both mitigated by time. When you have a moment, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:24 PM Q, In case you haven't noticed, 100,000 Americans are shot every year... With better response time and better medicine lots are living that even 20 years a go would have died... Ol'ster's desire to having been in that theater wouldn't have changed the outcome... It would have made it worse... No offense to Ol'ster... That is reality... Bad enough with one gunman... Double them up and who knows... Like I said, no offense to Ol'ster... Snipers make a difference... More fire power in a crowded theater don't... Do the math... This idea that what we need to do is have more folks packing heat to make us safer is insanity on crack... Have you ever been in a rumble or bar fight... Unfortunately for my nose (2nd time broken) I have been in a bar fight... Had folks all been packing heat then I might not be here tonight... No to more guns... It's like leech therapy... More ain't gonna cure ya'... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:29 PM Bobert is right on this. Having known someone who packed a gun with him all the time, with the idea that he could save lives by taking out any potential shooters before they could do serious harm, turned out to be more of a danger to both other people and himself. The jury is still out, but I can make a pretty good guess as to the dark urges lurking in George Zimmermann's mind before he shot Trayvon Martin. Not "Have Gun, Will Travel," but "Have Gun, Want to Shoot Someone!" And some black teen ager, who had every right to be where he was, provided Zimmermann with what he thought was a reasonable excuse. Most people's skills with firearms—or lack thereof—would make them more of a danger to more people than the occasional Aurora, Colorado shooter. Imagine what would have happened in that theater had one or more other people had drawn guns and started blazing away with the idea of stopping the shooter—who happened to be wearing a Kevlar vest? How many MORE people would have been shot? At the VERY least, a person should be required to pass a test demonstrating competence with a firearm, and knowledge of when the use of a firearm is called for—and when not. And carry a license along with the firearm, in the same way and for the same reasons that he or she is required to have a license to operate an automobile. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:31 PM A policeman would have fired his weapon in a heartbeat in a theater full of people. THEY are trained in that situation, if the officer knew he could make a kill shot he would have fired in a heartbeat. Air Marshals are trained to take out a terrorist in a crowed airliner without hurting an innocent .. and you bet Navy Seals and special forces are also. I know what I am talking about. And one of the kids that died his girlfriend in the hospital said he was standing over them point blank .. Even a civilian armed response would have hurt no one but the agressor Now as for chicken shit Bruce .. wasn't your kid was it anyway, I got places to go later I am done with this |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:36 PM Here in North Carolina and guy accidentally shot and killed his own father in a back yard dispute with a neighbor... Normal... More guns ain't gonna make us any safer than poison water or polluted air... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 24 Jul 12 - 10:42 PM "Even a civilian armed response would have hurt no one but the agressor So... the logic is: EVERYONE who legally can should carry a gun so they can 'respond'? Sounds like 'stand your ground' 3! When everyone...or even MOST ...are carrying, that means short-tempered trigger-happy George Zimmerman's in every theater, bar, college classroom. This means a LOT more 'threats' will be perceived and weapons drawn...with 'responses' by nice, sane, even-tempered, well-trained guys like olddude! Do you REALLY think you can teach reasonable gun handling and restraint to 30-50-75% of the populace? I sure hope *I* am not in the crossfire when a theater full of well-intentioned 'armed civilians' perceives a threat. You CANNOT expect reasonable behavior from a random group! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Jul 12 - 11:03 PM Would Oldster as the second armed person in the theater make it worse? From my point of view, yeah, I think it would. Holmes was covered head to toe in body armor, including extra protection for his throat. Would olddude have shot anyway with his daughter in peril. Probably yeah. Would he have angered the gunman enough to draw his attention and get half the rifle clip emptied into him. and those in the neighboring seats. Probably yeah. We'd all have missed you Dan. If you don't have a clean, armor piercing, kill shot do you have any business taking out a gun? In a perfect NRA world, half the people in the theater would have been packing armor piercing ammo in their guns which would have to pack enough punch for a clean kill. In that world all the nutjob would have to do is toss his smoke bombs and a few fire crackers and let the vigilante nutjobs kill each other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,999 Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:50 AM No, Dan, it wasn't. Wouldn't have been any better if it was yours. Bruce |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 25 Jul 12 - 01:35 AM There was a time in England where the tobacco lobby was very powerful. When things began to change , alot of us felt confronted and defensive about the changes. Nowadays few would say that the changes were not a great public benefit, and we owe a lot to thos people we once felt confronted by. I think maybe, you have a similar sort of fight on over there - with the guncompanies. You will beat them one day. Youare in the right. Have faith. At one time the tobacco companies in England looked very secure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:02 AM I just wanted to say to Olddude that he has my heartfelt sympathy and understanding. His family were put in a terrible situation and he is shocked and frightened by the possibility they might so easily have been killed. His reaction to want to kill outright the perpetrator is a natural response for any man. But I still feel that more guns (or any guns) and aggressive, violent responses to threats are not the answers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stu Date: 25 Jul 12 - 07:06 AM The more guns there are, the more armed civilians then the further away from being civilised a society becomes. It feels like there is some sort of tipping point being reached here, as the BBC report thousands of scared people are buying even more guns: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18980974 Down this road lies madness and death. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 25 Jul 12 - 07:12 AM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinoceros_%28play%29 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 25 Jul 12 - 08:11 AM ""Especially if you can buy them over the counter, like a bag of twinkies. This kid may not be a nutter. He may be normal, and snapped."" Highly unlikely, given the number and variety of booby traps he built and armed, and the body armour, helmet etc. He also bought the guns recently for precisely this event. He is at the very least obsessive, at worst completely mad, but I'm inclined to believe he is a murderous sociopath, who is only too aware of the difference between right and wrong but doesn't see that they apply to him. He'll have a job to convince a jury that he didn't know what he was doing, given the meticulous planning involved. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stu Date: 25 Jul 12 - 08:34 AM Thing is Don, where do we draw the line in defining someone as mad? Everyone says he must mad because he purposefully bought guns and went out and killed people. But we don't think terrorists are mad for doing the same thing, and we don't class the person flying a drone 10,000 miles away as mad even thought they might kill dozens at a stroke. The problem is these two examples have a context, we expect terrorists to kill people, and we train our servicemen and women with that purpose too, but we don't expect a civilian to do the same. Why not? The truth is, this might be a kid who has got his wires crossed, with appalling results. The fact he wears a body armour and helmet means nothing; he's taking his cues from what he sees on the telly, policemen dressed the same way when dealing with protestors, often violently. He might be in a world of his own, but that's no different to millions of others. What's really terrifying is not the worry of a lone madman, it's the fact ordinary citizens who for some reason snap and loose perspective can now enact their revenge fantasies simply by buying a gun, getting on the internet and doing some basic chemistry. The problem is, there's no desire amongst the movers and shakers to limit the availability of guns and stop these people from committing the most horrendous crimes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 25 Jul 12 - 08:50 AM Bill, there you go again - trying to use reason on zombies. You should know better by now. Consider John Lott. He's an academic who wrote a thick, dry-as-dust statistical tome whose title says it all: "More Guns, Less Crime." Lott gathers statistics from all over the world that convince him that more guns mean less violence. (Technically, a little less violence.) OK. No non-statistician can even get through Lott's book, and only another statistician can check his figures, math, and deductive powers. The thesis sounds crazy, but lots of true things sound crazy. Now check the reviews on Amazon. To put it mildly, people who seem to have some statistical training raise serious, serious questions about Lott's method. Yet the book gets four stars, because NRA types love the title. And the tone of their own reviews is generally, "I know he's right 'cause I want to believe him. And if you think me an' John are wrong, you're a liberal asshole or a liberal liar!" Without reading and minutely analyzing "More Guns, Less Crime," I can't judge the soundness of Lott's work. (Those who have, tend to be unconvinced.) But what could possibly create the effect? If it's the fear that a victim might be packing a .45, as the zombies insist, then why isn't the decline in rapes and murders far greater? And wouldn't teargas/pepper spray work almost as well? Are violent criminals really so prudent and well-informed that they don't strike if local gun-ownership statistics say a victim might be armed? Are they so stupid that they don't jump from behind, knife or gun in hand to neutralize the "equalizer"? When they rob liquor stores, don't they get the drop on the clerk, making sure he (or she) can't reach for his hogleg? And aren't they *more* likely to shoot him if he does? But never mind my own skepticism. The real subject is knee-jerk zombies. For them - watch my lips - it's a theological debate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:01 AM He'll have a job to convince a jury that he didn't know what he was doing, given the meticulous planning involved. Meticulous planning is something paranoid schizophrenics are typically very good at. Look at the complexity of these delusional systems and the amount of sheer sustained work that went into developing them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tilly_Matthews (see the book "The Air Loom Gang" for the details) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_W%C3%B6lfli http://crazygail.com/Main_Page (there is far more weird stuff by her on the web than any sane person could ever read and watch) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,saulgoldie Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:47 AM Well, as compelling it may be to think about defending yourself from crime with your gun, it is far more likely that your gun will be used by a family member to kill themselves or to accidentally kill another loved one. Guns are the second leading cause of death in young men after car crashes. If there is no gun present, then no one will die from a gun. Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:50 AM ". The real subject is knee-jerk zombies. For them - watch my lips - it's a theological debate." Ok, Lighter... I think you have said it pretty succinctly. It is NOT a matter of logic for them. Their ummmm... 'souls'... are committed to "more guns". But...*sigh*... mine is committed to some semblance of reason & logic, and though I don't expect to convince all the olddudes of the world, I post my best reasoning for "the record" in hopes it might help someone who is undecided whether to fill their closet with AK-47s..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:39 PM Jack Campin.... I could not resist peeking at Crazy Gail's pages. I had to tear myself away.....scary! What immediately popped into my head was the philosophical/logical principle: "From false premises, anything follows." The point is, it doesn't require that anyone be as crazy as Gail, or follow such extreme flights of fancy. All that is required is to adopt one or two beliefs that cannot be substantiated, and they can then proceed to entire systems of thought & action that are thus by definition merely 'opinion'. In some cases, these are benign and harmless, but sometimes they lead to activities dangerous to society. George Zimmerman had certain beliefs that led him to act in ways that led to the death of Trayvon Martin. He probably still 'believes' that his actions were 'justified', even if they didn't turn out the way he hoped. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,999 Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:50 PM Dan, I apologize if you think my remark was a reference to you. I know your history and the chickenshit remark was NOT aimed in your direction. The people who accosted me were chickenshits, period. In neither circumstance would me having a gun have helped me. If somehow you think anyone would have been better off armed in that theater I'm willing to be educated. If you think for a second I would not have put myself between any of your kids and that shooter then maybe you don't know me at all. That killer had easy access to weapons--the result is more than 60 people killed or wounded. Find the folks who sold him the weapons and charge them with accessory to murder. But we know that won't happen. And now my erstwhile friend, I will leave this thread too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:54 PM It's the human condition. The monkeys run the zoo. I was about to say that even monkeys evolve, but I don't need the hate mail. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 25 Jul 12 - 03:47 PM Whatever one thinks about some of the things that "Old Dude" has posted, his daughter had a very close call, far from home. As parents, we all know the emotions that kick in when our children are threatened, or harmed, and we know that they often play out more intensely after the danger has passed. So Dan, we're with you... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:03 PM Olddude is not one of the monkeys. If he were, he'd be in Congress. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:27 PM With all due respect, should the US government decide to make war on guns, even with the things "collectors" hold in the USA - there is no contest against the military that invented "shock and awe". An armed militia is no defence whatsoever against the US military if deployed. The recital that rationalises the 2nd amendment is no longer relevant. I should however point out a technicality "The right of the people (etc)" does not create a right. It refers to such right as there may be and if the right is diminished then there is still a right that shall not be infringed. It would have been easy enough to say "Every person shall have the right to bear arms" - and even then it might have been easy to distinguish between swords and rapiers and knives, on the one hand, limited magazine rifles and pistols (let's think, Winchester up to 15 rounds, the Henry 16 rounds, Colt 45 up to 6, some revolvers 7) and true machine guns like Gatling (and Gardner and Nordenfeldt). The English were wiser in 1689 to enact "the Subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defence suitable to their Conditions and as allowed by Law" - and of course that was the parent for the US drafting in the US Bill of Rights (itself a compromise measure). Despite the folly of the US wording, the Supreme Court of the USA has ruled that such right is "to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home" The idea that the US constitution allows all and any weapons is irrational and dangerous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:52 PM "The idea that the US constitution allows all and any weapons is irrational and dangerous." Of course it is! Many of us realize that... and I even see it expressed by 'some' commentators & politicians. But $$$$$ seem to override common sense for many. It's the price we pay for a vaguely worded constitution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:09 PM > The idea that the US constitution allows all and any weapons is irrational and dangerous. That is absolutely true, and only real lunatics believe otherwise. Few want mom and dad to have an M-60 machinegun around the house, or a Stuka dive bomber, for example. And the courts have never suggested that such things should be legal. The real problem, however, as several people have said, is first, that there are 200,000,000 legal guns already and probably 100,000,000 illegal ones in the hands of gangsters who at least have had the decency not to blast everyone in a crowded theater. And second, that it's too freaking easy for dangerous people to get guns, and to get 100-round Holmes-style ammo drums so that they don't even need to reload very often. And with a population of 300,000,000, you can imagine how many people are potentially dangerous. But most aren't. There's the rub. The challenge is to improve the situation. In theory the Second Amendment could be revised or repealed by Congress and a vote of two-thirds of the states, but remember that, at least till now, Congress won't even repeal the gun-show loophole. Also, it's bad precedent to mess directly with the Bill of Rights. I wonder now whether the amendment was ambiguously phrased on purpose. Maybe the framers couldn't quite come to agreement either, except for the point that a musket-armed citizenry would help to deter the aggressors of the day, and would allow frontiersmen to defend themselves forever against raids by Indians, Frenchmen, Spaniards, and the British. Under that hypothesis, they'd be leaving it for posterity to sort out. Someone must know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:13 PM Dr Who |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:28 PM There is one point about the concept of arming your children which nobody has addressed. With the exception of those intensively trained members of organisations such as the military, police FBI, CIA etc., who have actually taken one or more human lives in pursuit of their duties, there are very few normal human beings who can point a gun at a fellow human and pull the trigger. If Dan arms his children, he can certainly teach them gun safety and handling, but he can't overcome that hesitation inbred in us when it comes to killing a person. Inevitably the kids will hesitate, but their opponent won't, and then you have the situation described above, in which they die in a hail of bullets, and a lot of others with them. Add in a number of similarly hesitant civilians who don't have proper training and.........well, you work it out. The body armour of course means that they would have to ignore the rule of aiming for the centre of body mass, and take the much more difficult head shot. Double?.....Treble?......Quadruple the number of victims? I seriously doubt that anybody but a cop or a soldier could obtain a successful outcome. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Janie Date: 25 Jul 12 - 09:51 PM From the Raleigh, NC News & Observer this morning Gun Rights Group Pressures TV Station Even so, keep posting and talking to people, Bill. Most seeds never germinate. Even so, the world is full of growing plants from the few that do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:22 PM Thanks, Janie... Copernicus & I appreciate the vote of confidence :>)... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 26 Jul 12 - 08:17 AM How many cases are there, really, where an armed citizen has saved himself or others by whipping out a pistol? I've read of such cases in the news (it seems usually to be a granny for some reason), but they seem to be very, very rare. And newsworthy. I'm not talking about scaring off a home invader at midnight. I'm talking about people packing guns in public and using them to fend off or to shoot actual criminals. Obviously it happens, but how frequently in comparison to the 10,000 gun killings per year? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 26 Jul 12 - 08:42 AM You're not looking in the right place, Lighter. You need to check the Kansas, Arizona and South Dakota newspapers from 1880. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 26 Jul 12 - 09:20 AM Interestingly, the comprehensive U.S. Government report, "Violence in America," found as follows: "The homicides that [typically] occurred [in the Old West] almost inevitably resulted from gunfights between willing participants." In other words, there wasn't much back-shootin' *or* crazed killin'. That Federally funded study was published in 1969 (that's 42 years ago) during the conservative Nixon administration. The researchers got their information from Old West newspapers, not horse operas and Edge novels. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 26 Jul 12 - 10:05 AM Do you really know what a policeman is? Do you? it is a private citizen who took a job to uphold the law. A private citizen who is highly trained with weapons (usually). You know who trained him .. ME ! If you do not have the skills, no you should never go near a firearm or even once think of carrying. And yes I myself stopped a knife attack with a handgun with only pulling it out. And yes I would have used it had I been forced to. It doesn't make news because it ain't the granny but it happens every day. You know who else carries, lawyers, judges, ex police, FBI, CIA, Justice dept retired people. All Private Citizen. If you never owned a weapon, know nothing about weapons then you do not know what your are saying .. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 26 Jul 12 - 10:49 AM Armed, professional, and highly trained law enforcement officers have little in common with with armed, unpredictable, and indifferently trained or completely untrained, non-uniformed citizens wearing pistols around town just in case. I'm happy that you scared away your assailant. There's one incident right there. But my question was, How often does this happen? And how does the number of such occurrences compare with 10,000 annual gun homicides? The answer appears to be, Who knows? Whether responsible people like Supreme Court justices carry concealed weapons has no connection to keeping guns away from criminals and unstable people who have no business running around armed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Megan L Date: 26 Jul 12 - 11:22 AM If anyone found in possession of a firearm was taken out and shot perhaps people would eventually stop having them. I doubt it but mankind is to stupid to be allowed near anything dangerous even those who seem clever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 26 Jul 12 - 11:35 AM "If you do not have the skills, no you should never go near a firearm or even once think of carrying." Oh, that makes perfect sense. But our problem seems to be that most of those who buy & sell firearms seem to think that, by virtue of the 2nd amendment, all they need to know is which end the bullets come out and where the trigger is! In my area (DC Metro), there were 'only' two gun deaths reported on the news last night... one shooting in a 'bad neighborhood' and one 4- year old boy who found a loaded pistol in a truck and accidently shot himself. I'll see what tonight brings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Penny S. Date: 26 Jul 12 - 11:37 AM It occurs to me that the credit/debit card companies could be helpful in these cases, by flagging up large purchases of suspicious items to the security services. As could the suppliers of arms and ammo, if legit and wanting to stay legit. There must be a threshold that even NRA members would recognise between normal supplies for normal purposes and stocking up a small army quantities. At the very least, a sudden rush of purchases should surely alert the normal programs which spot if a card has been used to purchase, for example, £2000 worth of French wine. (That's what my stolen details were used for.) Not just armoury stuff, either. Fuel oil, fertiliser, hydrogen peroxide and so on, as well. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 26 Jul 12 - 11:53 AM The mean number of times an American police officer feels compelled to fire his gun at a suspect during his police career: Never. Movies and TV say different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 26 Jul 12 - 12:22 PM Probably time to get to the real problem here, which is not that a lot of people have guns, but that a lot of people think it is ok to shoot them at other people when they feel threatened or angry(or stab them, or blow them up). This is only part of a larger problem that includes cutting people off in traffic when they do something you don't like (there are estimates that road rage figures in 60-70% of traffic accidents), and calling someone who disagrees with you on an internet forum childish names. A lot of people in our country (you know which country I am talking about) feel entitled to aggressively confront anyone who does something they don't like. Though we recoil at the extreme examples, we tolerate it and even applaud it in everyday situations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Jul 12 - 01:27 PM Gun fights and killing in the 'old West' of the 1880s are mostly the product of movies and popular fiction. Many guns were carried, but seldom used. One great exception is the Lincoln County War in New Mexico, started when a small group of merchants headed by Murphy and Dolan and their supporters in law enforcement acted to take over the properties of an English rancher. William Bonney was a young cowboy working for Alexander McSween and Tunstall, the former burned out and murdered and the latter killed, by Sheriff Brady and the gang working for the Murphy-Dolan group, in what is called the Battle of Lincoln. Billy killed very few, and never wantonly, but he did kill Brady, who was instrumental in the killing of McSween, his loved boss and mentor. Billy failed to get a pardon for his part in the fracas from Gov. Lew Wallace, the only one of the Regulators who did not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 26 Jul 12 - 03:17 PM Gun fights and killing in the 'old West' of the 1880s are mostly the product of movies and popular fiction. Many guns were carried, but seldom used. Source? References? Substantiation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 26 Jul 12 - 03:42 PM You might start with my post of 9:20 a.m. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Jul 12 - 05:11 PM LIghter, 9:20 am on26 July. References pointing to low incidence of violence in the old west: Roger McGrath, 1984, " Gunfighters, Highwaymen, and Vigilantes: Violence on the Frontier," Univ. California Press "The frontier-was-violent authors are not, for the most part, attempting to prove that the frontier was violent. Rather, they assume that it was violent and then proffer explanations for that alleged violence" (p. 270). Eugene Hollon writes that the western frontier "was a far more civilized, more peaceful and safer place than American Society today." W. Eugene Hollon, 1974, "Frontier Violence: Another Look." Oxford University Press. Terry Anderson and P. J. Hill affirm that although "the West.... is perceived as a place of great chaos, with little respect for property or life," their research "indicates that this was not the case; property rights were protected and civil order prevailed. Private agencies provided the necessary basis for an orderly society in which property was protected and conflicts were resolved." Anderson, Terry, and P. J. Hill, 1979, An American Experiment in Anarcho-capitalism: The Not So Wild, Wild West. Jour. Libertarian Studies 3:9-29. Wagon trains established a constitution or ground rules before setting out. Ostracism and banishment threats were sufficient to correct behavior. Miners in California formed associations and contracts with each other. References from a brief article in http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=803. A book often cited for violence proves the opposite if read; "The Vigilantes of Montana," Prof. Theodore J. Dimsdale, 1866. Businessmen and ranchers in Montana organized and hung, jailed, and rooted out thieves, rustlers, and killers in the state, insuring safety for its citizens. This book has been reprinted many times, it is an interesting and very readable history of bringing peace to an area without government law. The full title: "The Vigilantes of Montana, or popular justice in the Rocky Mountains, being a correct and impartial narrqative of the chase, trial, capture and execution of Henry Plummer's road agent band, together with accounts of the lives and crimes of many of the robbers and desperadoes." Printed on Virginia City, Montana. In the book, the vigilantes are not named, and the identity of some is still uncertain, others identified themselves at later dates, some were prominent owners of ranches and businesses, others entered politics. They made Montana safe for those who came to make a home in that region. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jul 12 - 06:03 PM I guess you could claim it was anecdotal, but my dad, who grew up with a granddad who'd been a deputy US Marshall in the Cherokee strip and a dad who was equally comfortable with guns as a necessary tool on a ranch, knew of only two times in their lives in which they "took up arms." Both times in self-defence. In only one of those were shots fired resulting in my greatgranddad killing a neighbour who was shooting at him with some accuracy. He turned himself into the sheriff and was jailed for his own safety until an inquest found it was self-defence. But, even with am amazing number of saloons in the small town near where they settled, shoot-outs were mostly non-existent and leaders of the community took responsibility for keeping that so. Unfortunately, the myths of shoot-outs are perpetuated through such events as are listed on THIS PAGE, though I am sure some of those are based on some historical facts. Apologies if this has already been cited: The Culture of Violence in the American West: Myth vs Reality |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 26 Jul 12 - 07:00 PM Stimz has a point here... Yes, people are a lot more emboldened and brazen with their aggressive behaviors... Two things: 1. We need to get back to "win-win-we" thinkin' and quit with the "win-lose-me" thinkin... We need a major "reconciliation" effort... But... 2. With more people armed people are empowered to act aggressively because it won't come down to what I grew up with, i.e. a fist fight... It'll just come down to the mere pulling of a trigger... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 26 Jul 12 - 07:06 PM See, with a fist fight you can't wipe the other guy off the face of the earth. Which is what more and more folks clearly want to do. Because they're mad as hell and aren't going to take it anymore. That goes equally for criminals and (temporary) non-criminals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Jul 12 - 09:58 PM katlaughing, thanks for another good reference on the violence myth of the old West. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 26 Jul 12 - 10:06 PM No. lighter... The fist fight stripes away the weapons... The fist fight might just be the solution... Worked in the 50s and 60s... People didn't shoot people because it wasn't an.... ...option... It wasn't... People got in a lot of fist fights... Big deal... Everyone was alive afterwards... Bring back the fist fights... That is a start... Get the guns outta the equation... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 26 Jul 12 - 10:09 PM See, with a fist fight you can't wipe the other guy off the face of the earth. I guess not. But you can certainly kill of be killed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jul 12 - 11:58 PM Thanks for noticing, Q. I just skimmed the surface, but it looked fairly accurate and interesting. By the way, one of the headlines of the news accounts about my ggranddad was "Got a Gun and Shot Him |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 27 Jul 12 - 07:07 AM ""See, with a fist fight you can't wipe the other guy off the face of the earth. I guess not. But you can certainly kill of be killed."" Give us your best guess JtS, 100 people hit with fists! How many die?......1?.....2?.....5? 100 people hit with bullets! How many die?......30?.....40? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stu Date: 27 Jul 12 - 07:23 AM "If you never owned a weapon, know nothing about weapons then you do not know what your are saying." I don't think you can rule everyone else out the debate because they have never owned a gun. We're all part of society and therefore all have an equal or valid voice, a fact which gun owners don't seem to like for some reason. Dismissing opinions on this basis is plain wrong; we all know what guns do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 27 Jul 12 - 09:49 AM How do you tell from this thread who doesn't own a gun? Not all gun owners think one way. Worth remembering. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 27 Jul 12 - 10:07 AM BTW, I not only own guns but have going back to when I was about 9 years old and, along with my mom, was in an NRA sponsored shoot club... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 27 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM ABCNEWS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 27 Jul 12 - 02:41 PM That's nice.... while that guy was disarming the knife wielder, 14 people were being shot across the country. And if that guy was determined to hurt someone and had a gun instead of a knife? "All Indians walk in single file... at least the Indian *I* saw once was walking single file." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 27 Jul 12 - 03:03 PM 273 Americans will be shot today... More guns ain't going to change that number downward but upward... Sure, there are occasions where it works out for the better but seriously offset by the other 272 occasions where things don't work out well... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 27 Jul 12 - 03:42 PM The 22 others are being shot by drug deals ... not the guy carrying the weapon that stopped the stabbing. One size fits all I guess right. Wrong ... I once heard on guy getting rabies from a dog. So lets tell everyone that dogs should no longer be allowed as pets. Or should it be dogs can be pets with legit owners who give them shots and licenses. Now with 200,000 firearms how do you propose your ban. Me I say if you are well trained, pass the background checks do it right. Do it all right, then it is your responsibility to protect others as the police are not everywhere at all times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 27 Jul 12 - 03:59 PM I have a hard time understanding the thinking. I respect differences in opinion but if my house is on fire, I ain't gonna wait for the fireman to come and get my family out .. because, well its their job .. I will do it myself. Now you never go looking for trouble, but if it finds you .. then you need to understand there are many good people who have very good backgrounds that carry firearms ... you hear of the neighborhood watch guy that went looking for trouble. Licensed people don't want any part of that, but I will compare that isolated case with the high number of drug shoots and other criminal acts .. and it ain't the licensed carrier doing it. Grandpa here did everything wrong .. but he did stop it grandpa |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 28 Jul 12 - 06:43 AM He sure as hell did do everything wrong. However, shooting the guy with the pistol was done right even if it was done wrong. If you need an explanation of my statements... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jeri Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:18 AM I don't believe he actually shot anybody, not even any other patrons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:32 AM Jeri... You may be right. I watched it again. He didn't hit the guy with the pistol. So, maybe he did do that right. The others are out of camera. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:55 AM He made a bunch of tactical errors but he did stop it, and I don't believe he hit anyone, just scared the crap out of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 28 Jul 12 - 09:59 AM Once again, Ol'ster... You are speaking from your perspective and training... You say you train cops... So, if that is the case then you have a "law enforcement" persoective and mentality... That's fine... I want you in the McD's when the wacko comes in with a Glock and a head full of rage... What I don't want. however, is for everyone else in McD's to be packing heat... Actually, I don't even want one other guy packing heat unless he has also been highly trained... Like I said, 273 (two hundred seventy three) Americans were shot yesterday and another 273 will be shot today, and tomorrow and, and, and... Yes, the murder rate has somewhat stabilized over the years but alot of that has to do with better and faster medical treatments... Doesn't change the fact that we are shooting 273 Americans every day... And the argument that folks deserve to be shot because they are bad people and getting shot by other bad people is in-humane and un-caring... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 28 Jul 12 - 10:20 AM On some topics I find Bobert's arguments unpersuasive. But not on this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 28 Jul 12 - 10:33 AM your point is well taken bobster, I do look at it from a trained cops perspective and thus bias in my argument .. good point well made |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 28 Jul 12 - 11:53 AM Was another tragedy prevented here? --------------------------------------------------------------- "A week after the Colorado movie theater massacre, a Maryland man was taken into custody when police said he made a "joker" reference and threatened to shoot up a business he was being fired from. Neil E. Prescott, 28, had an arsenal of guns, though it wasn't clear how serious he was about threats he made to his boss over the telephone, authorities said. When police questioned Prescott at his apartment, authorities said he was wearing a T-shirt that said "Guns don't kill people. I do." Prescott told a supervisor at software and mailroom supplier Pitney Bowes that he wanted to see his boss'"brain splatter all over the sidewalk," according to police and an application for a search warrant. "I'm a joker and I'm gonna load my guns and blow everybody up," Prescott said, according to the document. ______________________________________________________ He sure had way more guns than anyone 'needs', and seems to have had strange ways of expressing himself.... and he was being fired from his job. I guess we'll never know "what if" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 28 Jul 12 - 05:29 PM "I watched it again. He didn't hit the guy with the pistol." 'Scuse me for being a nit-picker, but--where did the bullet he fired go? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:49 PM Past the guy with the pistol would be my guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 28 Jul 12 - 09:14 PM its a .380 he was using ... pretty low powered, the bullet is in the wall. that would not go through. It is quite possible he did hit the first guy, but if not a head shot you tend just to just piss em off |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 28 Jul 12 - 09:39 PM Well, .380 is not what I would call "low powered." It's not up there with the .45 ACP or 9 millimeter (which has a lot of penetration, but not a whole lot of "stopping power"). The .32 was a standard police caliber in a number of European countries, but the Italian police felt it was too puny, and adopted the .380, which they dubbed the "9 millimeter corto" (short). Then other European police forces began adopting it. Fairly similar to the .38 Special, which is a standard American police cartridge. .380 will usually do the job in most cases. And it can be fired from a somewhat smaller pistol, such as a Beretta 84FS Cheetah or a Walther PPK. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 28 Jul 12 - 10:32 PM Made this point many times before but not yet on this thread... there are good gun laws and there are bad gun laws. A bad gun law not only allows the following but encourages it and this type of crime has happened with alarming and increasing frequency since our new "gun laws" were introduced. From my local newspaper today... Man shot during home invasion Police seek suspects in Homestead Road home invasion BY BRENT MAZEROLLE TIMES & TRANSCRIPT STAFF The District 11 RCMP is asking for the public's assistance in locating suspects in a violent home invasion in Berry Mills early yesterday. Three armed males broke into a home on the Homestead Road in Berry Mills just before 5 a.m. At some point during the incident, the 75-year-old homeowner, well known area auto enthusiast Bud Blacklock, was shot in the leg. His wife Louise was not injured. It's believed the suspects fled in a vehicle. The couple were both transported to hospital. The man's injuries are not believed to be life-threatening. The RCMP Forensic Identification Section and Police Dog Service are assisting in the investigation. It is unknown at this time whether anything was stolen from the home. The suspects are described as three males of slim build who were of short to medium height. Two of the suspects were wearing ball caps and all three had their faces partially covered. They spoke English and were dressed in dark-coloured clothing. Police remained at the home throughout the day yesterday. A neighbour of the couple, Jeff White, who lives about 200 metres away, said he heard nothing from his home until he woke up about 7 a.m. and saw police already at the scene. After that startling discovery, he watched police scour the grounds of the property, search ditches and even bring in the RCMP helicopter. It landed and the crew talked to the police on the ground briefly before going aloft again. 'The helo did three or four passes in increasingly larger circles,' White said, suggesting the air crew was looking for any evidence that may have been left behind in the vicinity. A number of friends of the Blacklocks, some of whom were nervous to be identified by name because of fear of similar crimes, expressed shock that someone would harm the well-liked couple, a man with pre-existing health problems and a woman who is legally blind. At the nearby Country View Restaurant, there was at least relief that the injury was not more serious. The significant police response had some area residents fearing the worst. Paul Forgrave, a long time friend of the Blacklocks through car club circles, said yesterday afternoon, 'I didn't know what had happened. I had just heard there had been a robbery.' Forgrave and others suggested it would be very unlikely the couple had any enemies. However, it seems possible a small home-based business Bud Blacklock runs might have been a motive for a robbery. 'He sells used cars and you don't always know who you're dealing with,' Forgrave said. Besides involvement with antique cars, Bud Blacklock has also long been involved in the community with the Luxor Temple Shriners, part of their miniature car brigade that entertains youngsters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 29 Jul 12 - 10:13 AM On the subject of Grandpa, linked to above--old dude didn't spell it out, but "Grandpa" actually is the one who is on a shooting spree-he was the only one who fired shots, both of the people he shot were running away from him, it looks like he shot at people other than the robbers, and one of the people he shot seems to be unarmed and trying to crawl away while "Grandpa" is emptying his revolver. I'm not feeling any safer because guys like him are out there... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 29 Jul 12 - 10:18 AM Yeah, whether it Grandpa has Alzheimers or not, Grandpa doesn't need a gun... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 29 Jul 12 - 10:19 AM Last night ....Mass. dad shoots 2 kids, 1 fatally, kills self He had a gun licence that expired in 1999....but I guess that no one checks and removes the gun when the licence expires. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 10:53 AM A .380 will do the job, but it ain't a .40 cal. It is a backup weapon by police. Anything will do the job with the right shot placement but if hit in the torso with a .380 a bad guy will fire back. Now hit with a .357, .40 or .45 no they stay down. Grandpa kept the gunmen at bay, yes he made tactical errors, but they did not kill a bunch of people either. They made a mad dash for the door didn't they. They no longer wished to play. Good job grandpa, but get some more training and shooting practice. He was just going out to the internet cafe, he wasn't the one confronted . Me arm the good guys then the bad guy can take a second look. By the way, in New York state, you lose your handgun license or you passed away, the sheriff comes in and takes your handguns because they are notified and handguns are registered in this state. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 11:02 AM knowing the ballistics of the 380 in mine I carry +p ammo with full jacked hollow points (my gun can handle the hot load). If I have to use it God forbid I am not going to piss him off but take him out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Megan L Date: 29 Jul 12 - 11:09 AM "Oh wad some power the giftie gie us Tae see oorselves as itheres see us It wad frae mony a blunder free us And foolish notion." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 11:11 AM last comment so you understand. NO police officer is ever trained to wound someone. If deadly force is needed they are trained to kill. That is the long and short of it. Their weapons are hollow points, their backup is hollow point with +p hotloads. They are NOT trained to injure. The gun is pulled only when deadly force is needed with the full intent to kill not injure. If the situation is so bad that a weapon needs to be drawn, it is not to scare or to injure but to stop |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 11:33 AM for a bad guy, a police officer off duty is far more dangerous then on duty. A uniformed officer would take a torso shot first since his weapon is high powered. Off duty he is most likely carrying a small back up weapon and his shot placement would be double tap to head first |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 12:05 PM guys like myself, Kendall and many others here took an oath to protect, serve and defend. Just because we no longer wear the uniform doesn't mean that oath no longer applies. Not every citizen is a gun crazed maniac you see. now I am off to the range with my kids later |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 29 Jul 12 - 03:49 PM Not to put too fine a point on it, olddude, but people have been killed--on the spot--with a .22. Also a .25. Granted, if one expects to get into a gun battle, you want to have some substantial firepower. But if one carries a concealed weapon as a general rule, like a credit card just in case you might need it, something in the way of a "back-up gun" such as a Walther PPK .380 doesn't put a suspicious bulge under your coat. And in most cases, a .380 jacketed hollow-point will do the trick. Have you ever seen what a .380 jacketed hollow-point will do to a canteloupe? Don Firth P. S. Hell, man, if I knew I was going to get into a gun battle, I'd carry a bazooka! P. S. My former friend who damned near killed a mutual friend and got himself arrested for drawing his .45 automatic in a situation that did not warrent deadly force, used to laugh at my Walther PPK. Called it a "cap gun." Until he saw what it did to the canteloupe. An explosion of orange haze and a few shards of rind. Even he had to agree that would do the job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:08 PM That's just fine, Don - assuming you're attacked by a deranged canteloupe on PCP. Olddude knows of what he speaks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:26 PM If you use a .380 which is really a 9mm browning court or 9mm short as it is called in Europe use Hornady 90-gr. HP/XTP It has the best stopping power and is not a +p ... your gun has to be able to handle +P or you will blow it up or jam it up. Mine can't many .380's cannot |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:33 PM If you,Old Dude, as an officer, had stepped into the internet cafe when Grandpa was firing his weapon, how would you have assessed the situation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:34 PM Exactly, Don... Back in Virginia the P-Vine would occasionally see a deer in one of her gardens and I killed them with a .022... Caliber ain't entire story... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:41 PM I'll check it out, olddude, thanks. Actually, I just don't carry the thing anymore. Safely locked up. The places I go are very unlikely to have a berserk shooter in residence. As I mentioned above, I'm in far more danger from the multitudes of teenage kamikazes on skateboards. I haven't been attacked by many canteloupes lately, Greg. Indeed, I just attacked one yesterday. With a very deadly spoon. However, what a bullet does to a canteloupe gives you a pretty good idea of what it can do to human flesh. Kinda gruesome! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jul 12 - 06:15 PM what a bullet does to a canteloupe gives you a pretty good idea of what it can do to human flesh Sorry Don, but no, it don't. That's nonsense.If you want to run real comparison tests, you'll need some ballistic gel. Leave the poor vegetables alone- they ain't done nothin' to ya. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 29 Jul 12 - 06:58 PM ""+p ammo with full jacked hollow points (my gun can handle the hot load)."" Clarify something for me Dan, and I'm not trying to start a row, I genuinely want to know the answer. I thought dum dums were banned under international law, is this:- a) Not true? b) Repealed? c) Ignored by the USA? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:13 PM Well . . . here's where I quote Clark Gable at the end of "Gone with the Wind." The canteloupe test was suggested by a ballistics expert writing in "Guns and Ammo" magazine some years back. But--academic. As I said, mah hawglaig now resides in a locked drawer. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:14 PM Banned from use IN WAR by international convention - hey, ya gotta have a nice, clean, civilized war, aintcha? Who would want for more? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:19 PM Dum dums are banned for use in war. Against International Law. For some strange reason, hollow-points don't seem to be regarded as "dum dums." You can buy them by the 50 round box in a sporting goods store. But--to my knowledge, they are not used by the military. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:24 PM ""Banned from use IN WAR by international convention - hey, ya gotta have a nice, clean, civilized war, aintcha?"" I was rather hoping that nobody would tell me that a crime against humanity in wartime is an acceptable tactic for a law enforcement officer in a country which claims to be civilised. This kind of explains why the civilised and democratic US of A refused to acknowledge the International Court of Justice. For shame! Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:50 PM not funny Don you are right, a regular soldier is not suppose to use hollow point bullets. But they can use explosive bullets , fragmentation bullets, incendiary bullets and a host of others but no hollow points. However, in war, you see all of the above and special forces, their handguns have hollow points just as the police do |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:54 PM I don't make the laws, Don, nor do I condone them. And I reiterate, my handgun is locked in a desk drawer. And if you've been paying attention, you will notice that there are a lot of Americans on this thread who want the firearms regulations changed. The NRA is the demon in this situation. So don't go around condemning all Americans as being "uncivilized." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:54 PM I've never heard of them fired by police. It would have been very newsworthy, I'd think, for exactly the reason you suggest and because it would be so unusual. Police in the U.S. rarely have to shoot anybody with any kind of bullet anyway. Presumably police would use hollow-points against an armed assailant clad in some kind of body armor, or in some situation where the commonly issued bullet might be ineffective. Like shooting a rabid wild animal. Just as a point of information, American police generally have to justify any use of a firearm in the line of duty, with forms in triplicate. And if there's any doubt that a shooting was justified, they're prosecuted criminally and civilly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jul 12 - 08:08 PM hollow-points against an armed assailant clad in some kind of body armor No. Hollow points would be more useless than a regular jacketed round when dealing with "body armor". In that scenario, you'd want penetration rather than expansion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 29 Jul 12 - 08:22 PM For our cousins across the pond who may not have realized it yet, even our gun control advocates have guns! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 29 Jul 12 - 08:35 PM Ahhh... full metal jacket ("whizzers") bullets are used in war for a reason which has two benefits. Less damage for the shootees and more work for the shooters. Generally speaking, it takes at least two healthy soldiers to care for a wounded soldier. I thought only cops were allowed to use dum-dums. Hollow point long gun ammo is allowed here but I believe it is not allowed for restricted (handguns included) guns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 09:02 PM lighter my dear friend, I can tell you absolutely that I know what I am talking about. There are NO police in this country that don't use hollow point bullets in their handguns. For one thing a hollow point is less likely to punch through something and hit an innocent. Second when a policeman in the line of duty has to use his weapon he wants the bad guy down and out ... Hollow point bullets are the standard issue for all police departments in the states. I know of no officer that doesn't use them ... first and foremost for safety of others. A full metal jacketed bullet will rip through a car door, and damn near anything else from a .40 cal weapon. A hollow point will not |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 09:05 PM And as for police shootings, about once a week in the city. Damn near every other night the police have to return fire from some criminal drug nut |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 09:13 PM by the way, the Glock that has gotten so much press lately. that is the single biggest used weapon by FBI (standard issue) Justice dept and pretty much every other police dept in the states. That gun is designed to ONLY use hollow points. It is actually unsafe to use a hardball ammo in the weapon because of design. Hollow points are what it was designed to use and only hollow points. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 09:39 PM and for most people carrying a big pocket watch is the way to go ... I wouldn't want to get knocked on the head with one of my old size 18 RR watches :-) Weapons are a dirty business .. I suppose the only thing I haven't fired sometime or the other has been a flame thrower ... I hate the damn weapons, I wish we had a world where they were not needed but since that world doesn't exist, it is what it is |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 29 Jul 12 - 11:30 PM I am never sure why a thread on WHETHER to have guns slides sideways into "what guns and ammo have most firepower?". I 'think' it is because some folks are just fascinated with weapons.... which means that the INcompetent ones, as well as the trained, competent ones, will continue to collect guns |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 30 Jul 12 - 01:26 AM naw not me, I got more than I can use. Family keeps dying off and leaving them to me .. hell I don't hunt anymore .. I don't even hurt the fish I catch ballistic thread well I answered the question when asked .. and one I didn't answer is the military doesn't use hollow points, not because of any agreement, but because they are useless in battle. They need rounds that penetrate body armor and armored vehicles. I wish they all did use hollow points. Instead of the carnage maybe most would get a painful bruise after hitting the vest they all wear |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 05 Aug 12 - 07:59 PM Here we go again... 7 dead in Greenfield, Wisconsin... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 05 Aug 12 - 09:14 PM arm yourself bobster you want a hogleg I get ya one |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 05 Aug 12 - 09:36 PM No, thanks... I got two guns: a 12 guage pump and a 22/.410 over-under... perfect for home protection... Lousy for shooting lots of people but I ain't expecting a war her in Wingate, NC... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: artbrooks Date: 05 Aug 12 - 09:45 PM This is getting to be a Permathread. Shit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 05 Aug 12 - 11:39 PM ....and so it goes.......... *...wondering how many anti-social nuts are saying "I could get more than that!" and making plans as they order more ammo.* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 Aug 12 - 06:53 PM ""So don't go around condemning all Americans as being "uncivilized.""" An where exactly, Don F, did I do that. "All Americans" don't actually make the laws! They elect a government, and their country is just as civilsed, or not, as that government makes it. I am condemning the American government, as are many Americans, for either permitting, or encouraging these atrocities to continue at the whim of a tiny minority with enormously disproportionate political clout. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:07 PM ""Just as a point of information, American police generally have to justify any use of a firearm in the line of duty, with forms in triplicate. And if there's any doubt that a shooting was justified, they're prosecuted criminally and civilly."" I'm not disputing the use of guns by properly trained law enforcement officers whenever it may prove necessary in the line of duty. I am disputing government permitting the use of ammunition banned for use in war. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:46 PM Don T...you are right, up to a point, but the 'government' is made up of elected citizens with complex agendas and loyalties. The gun lobby is linked to several other lobbies and scares candidates before they are ever elected. It is a sad fact that, right now, there is SO much money being spent by the NRA and related lobby groups, the every politician in every party knows that he will be targeted if he says anything 'serious' supporting gun control. There are Democrats in 'safe' districts who speak out from time to time, but almost NO Republican feels safe even considering disputing the NRA's position on the 2nd amendment. This Democratic administration has many other issues they wish to consider in an Obama 2nd term, and they are obviously being VERY careful about a hot-button issue which might cost them the entire election. I can't say I blame them. I can't see anything working except a grass-roots movement demanding changes,,, and voting for candidates to support changes. But you see, we have honest, 'decent' folk like Olddude "fighting fire with fire" and not wanting anything except superficial changes... like gun show regulation. I even suggest that IF any direct attempt were made to ban...or even seriously regulate... guns & ammo, some of the more ....ummm... "outspoken" folk would treat it as an attack on their basic human rights and would 'defend' their *rights* with more violence than we have currently! ...and they DO have a hundred million guns squirreled away to resist any such movement. Gee, Don T... why don't YOU come explain it to them rationally? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:00 PM Bill my friend if they banned firearms, I would be the first to give them up. that is straight from the heart. I own them, I shoot them, I repair them, I trained law enforcement and military on tactics ... but ... I hate the damn things ... wish they didn't exist but it is what it is |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:08 PM really, Dan? I never heard you say it that way. I deal with the issue by swearing NOT to ever own another gun and trying to avoid any situation where weapons might be used. I know that "things happen" to innocent people, as we see everyday... but I do NOT believe that 'good' people carrying them will make anyone any safer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:52 PM It will never come down to banning firearms... It will come down to sane gun laws... Bill has articulated them... I would settle for what Bill has proposed... That would be 90% of the solution without banning firearms from responsible people... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:55 PM Thanks Bobert.... If you & I vote we'll...ummmm... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 06 Aug 12 - 09:02 PM From your mouth Bobster to God's ears ... I can only hope that myself. Right now they give good people no choice but to conceal carry and unless someone is as highly trained as a guy like Rap ... they should not |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 07 Aug 12 - 05:29 AM Small point, especially given the fact I haven't followed this thread lately, but... Don... "I am disputing government permitting the use of ammunition banned for use in war." That would be terribly cruel to game animals. If I was one ton moose, I'd shove my antlers up yer >;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: John P Date: 07 Aug 12 - 09:52 AM Here's a question for y'all: The guy that just killed all those people in Wisconsin bought his gun legally. He is also a known white supremacist who has played in hate-rock bands that engage in extremely violent speech. Should he have been banned from buying a gun? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 07 Aug 12 - 09:54 AM Meanwhile, back at the not-so-funny farm, the wacko who shot Gabby Giffords has been pumped full of meds enough to cop a plea today which will keep him from getting the death sentence in exchange for life without parole... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 07 Aug 12 - 10:15 AM "Right now they give good people no choice but to conceal carry and unless someone is as highly trained as a guy like Rap ... they should not" No choice? C'mon!.... I seriously want to know what the "good people" who are NOT trained... or capable of being trained... should do. Do we just hope that a Rap or an olddude is around? The math & demographics just do not support the idea of trying to arm all the "good people". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 07 Aug 12 - 12:12 PM And how do you know if you're a good person or not? Don't true wackos think they're perfectly normal (or at least justified)? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Aug 12 - 12:27 PM Yes, most of them do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:13 PM Two NPR headlines today. . Psychiatrist Contacted Police About Colo. Shooting Suspect, Media Report Reports: Man ID'd As Wisconsin Killer Had Previously Been On FBI's Radar You can't make this crap up. The Police said the Psychiatrist didn't fill out the proper paper work. The FBI says it did not have enough evidence to investigate. SIGH!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:29 PM http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/07/lynne-fenton-james-holmes_n_1751057.html?utm_hp_ref=canada Seems like the UC psychiatrist also called a meeting of the university's "threat assessment team," but it never convened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:33 PM Wow! That makes it looks worse, it looks like when he dropped out of school. The school decided to ignore the treat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:34 PM threat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:10 PM Were they so dumb as to think, "Well, we're legally and morally off the hook if he goes nuts, because he isn't connected with the university any more"? But maybe there's a perfectly logical and innocent explanation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:40 PM Of course, if she then called the police herself, that might have made any committee meeting unnecessary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 07 Aug 12 - 05:16 PM more 'incidents' related to theater scares and CNN is reporting that another guy was caught inside a theater with a weapon. He arrived 30 min. early and sat in back row. The manager and an off-duty cop were suspicious and confronted him. He claimed he was there "to protect" folks. They didn't buy it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 07 Aug 12 - 05:47 PM He's in custody,,,,Columbus, Ohio....He had a 9mm and several knives. Many more weapons at home....rifles, shotguns, survivalist gear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 07 Aug 12 - 06:07 PM Either he knew he was a bad guy, or he thought he was one of the good guys. That explains it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 07 Aug 12 - 09:14 PM well how do we tell a good guy from a bad guy who thinks he is good. We do that everyday. With our Police who are carrying weapons. With the chef that cooks our food when we go out to dinner. With the teacher who educates our kids ... ya gotta trust someone sometime |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Janie Date: 07 Aug 12 - 09:38 PM Lighter, the laws regarding "duty to warn" on the part of licensed mental health professionals vary from state to state, and I don't know what the laws are in Colorado. In most states, mental health professionals, clinics and agencies often walk a legal and ethical tightrope. One end of the rope is firmly attached to very strong legal restrictions regarding release or disclosure and the therapeutic relationship between the individual and a behavioral health provider. The other end is attached to legal and ethical mandates (that vary considerably) regarding either "duty to warn" or "psychiatric or medical emergency." You can bet that cases such as this get the attention and lead to intense discussion and analysis among behavioral health professionals because there is rarely a clear line about when one end of the pole trumps the other, and especially no clear demarcation about where the tipping point may be. I've done crisis work for a lot of years, am really effective and experienced at it, and still sweat bullets, both regarding the safety of patients and others, and also about liability issues, no matter how many times I walk that tightrope. Contrary to popular belief, behavioral health professionals do not have crystal balls, and can not read minds. From the very limited amount of information I have, sounds like the psychiatrist exercised her "duty to warn" under whatever the Tarasoff statutes are in Colorado. The school committee to which she reported may have been legally constrained from further disclosure once Holmes withdrew from the school. As I said before, I don't know the mental health laws in Colorado, and certainly know nothing about Holmes, so my observations really aren't worth much. We each have to decide for ourselves the costs and benefits of the personal vs the costs and benefits of the greater good or greater safety. I have had to do so. I have experienced personal harm and personal injustice as the result of laws or regulations that valued social justice or social safety over individual justice or individual safety. May there always be a legal tension between the two! Be that as it may, when the over-all costs to our society of our very liberal gun laws is weighed against the personal safety that may be afforded, fewer guns are in the public interest. It is not possible to pass laws that make it legal for only the likes of civilians like you to carry concealed weapons, or to own semi-automatic or automatic weapons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 07 Aug 12 - 10:23 PM Just to back up what Janie has said... When I was a social worker and dealing with a case load that was heavy on the wacko side (politically incorrect) we "green warrants" as our tool... Problems is that magistrates and judges weren't all that wild about issuing them... We, as s social workers could could all but get on our knees and beg but... ...unless the trigger had been pulled the magistrates and judges would turn us down 90% of the time... I fear that things haven't changed much since those days... Probably worse... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 08 Aug 12 - 01:02 PM ""That would be terribly cruel to game animals. If I was one ton moose, I'd shove my antlers up yer"" How many cops use hunting rifles on patrol, and how many moose are dispatched by police specials, Mr Wildebeeste? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 08 Aug 12 - 01:02 PM So how crazy do I have to be to end up on Janie's therapy couch .. I am there .. you cutie LOL love ya |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Janie Date: 08 Aug 12 - 06:23 PM Crazy enough to jump out of an airplane! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:09 PM None of my clients, to the best of my knowledge, ever jumped out airplanes... I'd get a car full once a month straight outta a state mental hospital that was more like a prison... It was all part of de-institutionalization (read my lips, cuts in funding for mental health)... I mean, some severely messed up people being released and still be released because of money??? And these folks have all but unfettered access to some very dangerous weapons??? Beam me up, Scotty... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Janie Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:46 PM but olddude did, just a few days ago....and I apologize for the thread drift. Bill D for president! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 08 Aug 12 - 08:07 PM No, BillD for benevolent dictator... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 08 Aug 12 - 10:56 PM ummmm... "if nominated, I will not run...if elected, I will not serve." They make you lisen to boring briefings and wake you up at night. Now..Emperor of the Universe? That's different.
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stu Date: 09 Aug 12 - 04:03 AM Interesting that the slaughter of Sikhs hasn't stirred the same horror that Aurora did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 09 Aug 12 - 06:22 AM I imagine that for one, it's much more uncomfortable to have a right wing extremist who represents a strong , growing and violent ideology. Not so easily dismissed as the lone 'whacked out guy'. Article |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 09 Aug 12 - 08:19 AM Good article, Peter... The Souther Poverty Law Center which tracks right winged hate groups says the number of such groups has tripled over the last 3 1/2 years... Hmmmmmmmm??? Same period of time that we have had a black president... But let's get serious here... The Republican Party has all but cheered this development... When people were allowed to yell "hang him" in regards to Barak Obama at Sarah Palin rallies and not called on it by the party that sent out a strong message that hate was just okay with them... That was irresponsible... Then you had Allen West claiming that that most of the Democrats in the House of Representatives were communists... And the "Hell no, we won't"... And, and... No, I'm not putting all this on the Repubs but I am putting their lack of courage and tacit approval on them... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 09 Aug 12 - 08:45 AM Interesting that the slaughter of Sikhs hasn't stirred the same horror that Aurora did. Hey, its not like they were white folks, Jack, even in the "post-racist" U.S. of A. the wingnuts keep prating about. Besides, they're all probably secret Muslims anyway. Didn't you see the towels they wear on their heads? That'll show 'em to try imposing sharia law on us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 09 Aug 12 - 09:21 AM From where I sit, the outrage is comparable but much of the emotion has been drained off by two weeks of thinking about the other guy. And since he's still alive, there will be more attention directed to him. BTW, according to CNN, white supremacist punk-rock is big, really big, in America's hinterlands. Kids without the attention span to read a hate leaflet groove to the violent lyrics, then head for the website. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 09 Aug 12 - 09:29 AM I doubt it's that cynical, as well as the uncomfortable notion society has allowed these hate groups to blossom, there's the notion this attack not being as seemingly 'random' as the cinema shooting and certainly less of the feeling that there would have been a chance of one self (or friends/family) running the risk of meeting a shooter like that. Unless one is a Sikh ofcourse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Aug 12 - 02:25 PM In the UK news about anything that matters has been squeezed out of the papers, or at least way back inside, by the hysteria about the Olympics. If Peter Laban's suggestion about white people feeling less personally at risk when far right white terrorists are involved is true, they might do well to reflect that neither Anders Breivik nor Tim McVeigh particularly targetted ethnic minorities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 09 Aug 12 - 04:39 PM Janie you busted me, I am DB Cooper !! sorry thread drift, go back to arguing :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 09 Aug 12 - 06:16 PM "... white supremacist punk-rock is big, really big, in America's hinterlands." Rich people do not recruit paid killers on Ivy League campuses as that would not be cost effective. Besides, the rich kids couldn't tell which way is east on a sunny morning and couldn't hit the side of a barn from 50 feet with a load of SSG and an 18 inch open cylinder. Yes, that was kinda condescending wasn't it? But, only us gun nuts will understand. That's all the more reason for us gun nuts to stand up and grab the bullshit by the horns and get the job done. Fact is, as I have said COUNTLESS times in these ENDLESS and USELESS threads, the anti-gun nuts are shooting themselves AND THE RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERS WHO WANT CHANGE in the foot because they just don't understand all of the issues. Jumping up and down and saying guns kill people is stunned as me arse but they still do it... and it gets them nowhere and fucks up the efforts of responsible gun owners who are trying to get SOMEwhere. THIS thread (and allll of the rest of the threads over the yearssss here at Mudcat) is a microcosm of what goes on in the US on a national basis with regard to the gun PROBLEMS and legislation which CAN solve most of these problems. BIG PROBLEMS. But, the biggest problem that has to be overcome in moving forward is to get the anti-gun nuts to get themselves educated and get themselves organised so that they don't sound like a bunch of just plain stunned as me arse pie-in-the-sky little school girls in a fuckin beauty pageant wishing for world peace. There. I said it. Smarten the fuck up. Get educated. Get organized. Quit bitching and moaning. Get the job done. If you ain't got the smarts or the balls to do it... get the fuck out of the way and stop thwarting the efforts of responsible gun owners to get the job done... they are on YOUR side and you haven't done anything realistic to get your job done or to help responsible gun owners get your job done. It ain't fuckin rocket science. The only reason that gun laws in the US have not been revised to address these BIG problems in the last thirty years is directly attributable to the anti-gun nuts. Like I said, ya can't just jump up and down and say guns kill people. Ya just CAN'T. And don't give me that horse shit about the $NRA$. If your government is that corrupt, you NEED your guns. That ain't rocket science either, is it? Don't tell me that an organized effort by intelligent people cannot defeat the gun lobby. If you say it, you are by no means intelligent or you have no balls or both. One last thing. I been shootin since I was 5 years old (read alll the threadssss I have posted to). That's 50 years. I am appalled by the gun crimes. BUT, if I had to choose between the gun nuts and the anti-gun nuts right this very minute... praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. Until you anti-gun nuts get educated, get organised and get a fuckin brain in yer collective heads the gun nuts are gonna prevail and that don't sit well with responsible gun owners like me. Come on eh? Get serious, get educated, get real, get organised, get the fuckin job done... or at least get out of the fuckin way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 09 Aug 12 - 06:48 PM an organized effort by intelligent people cannot defeat the gun lobby It can't. The only thing that will defeat it is a massive cultural shift - a general acceptance by the American public (NOT just the intelligentsia) that anybody who buys a gun and keeps it at home, buying ammo for it, training with it, planning all the time for how to kill people and animals with it, is sick, despicable and disgusting. Down there with the worst kind of sexual perverts. This is not a matter of intellectual judgment. What we need is for people to wake up and get a sense of moral revulsion. Law is a product of culture, it doesn't determine it. It's a complete waste of effort trying to change American gun law directly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 09 Aug 12 - 08:09 PM Jack is probably right. Meanwhile, a CNN poll reports that 13% of Americans want *no* restrictions on guns whatsoever. 37% want "minimal restrictions." 10% want guns outlawed. 40% want "major restrictions." The figures are essentially unchanged from a year ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 09 Aug 12 - 08:26 PM I rest my case. FIRST post in respose... partially quoted out of context and told that I don't know what I am talking about and that the only solution is total acceptance that anyone who owns a gun is, and I quote, "...sick, despicable and disgusting." Yeah, right. You are the reason the NRA will win. What the fuck did you NOT read in my post? I thought I made it VERY clear. Intelligent and educated people CAN prevail but that kinda shit makes it difficult for any progress to be made. If you stop... Ohhh, fuck it. So many threads. So much discussion in every nook and cranny of the US and around the world. So many self-righteous do-gooders who can't even take the time to actually think about what someone else tries to explain to them in SIMPLE terms... well, then yer fucked. Unfortunately, as long as you keep fucking yerself, yer allowing horrible gun crimes to continue... nay, ABETTING these crimes. Give yer head(s) a shake and see if they rattle. And stop acting like children. The NRA doesn't act like children. THAT is why they are besting you. You anti-gun nuts have nobody to blame but yourselves. Take yer holier than thou unsubstantiated bullshit and shove it where the sun don't shine. Join responsible gun owners in the quest for good gun laws or shut the fuck up. On accounta we fear millions (???) of you "supposedly sane" nutcases far more than we fear ONE insane nutcase with a gun (that YOU allowed him to have according to your OWN arguements) in a theatre. Yes... we do... I thought I made that clear when I said anti-gun nuts were thwarting legislation that would be in their best interests. Goodness gracious! What the hell am I doing on yet another gun thread? I must be stunned as me arse trying to talk common sense to those with none caused by their preoccupation with... ahem... gnightgnu PS.. don't bother to ask, even by PM. Just do the right thing and stop acting like children, or shut the fuck up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 10 Aug 12 - 01:09 PM Gnu, you are absolutely right. No one wants sensible gun laws then those of us who own the things and carry. It is the exact reason we own them and carry them, because we don't have sensible gun laws without all the loopholes. So as long as it is very easy for someone to commit terrible crimes like in Colorado. Those of us that are trained will, the best that we can, prevent another if we are around and protect our kids that just want to go to a damn movie without a nut fuck trying to blow them away. And me, my youngest is home for a visit, I took her out and she cut a clover leaf with my glock. Which is now hers. Her response, you must have did the trigger job ... sweet |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 10 Aug 12 - 02:17 PM "If your government is that corrupt, you NEED your guns. That ain't rocket science either, is it?" Sorry, but that sounds like just a slogan rather than logic, to me. How's that working out around the world where they have corrupt governments? Will "rocket science" tell you exactly who & what to USE those guns on? Is the alternative to "keeping your government from being corrupt enough to be a problem" just allowing crazy, angry idiots to keep shooting up theaters and schools? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 10 Aug 12 - 08:11 PM Bill D... whoa there buddy. yer startin ta sound like "them". "Sorry, but that sounds like just a slogan rather than logic, to me. How's that working out around the world where they have corrupt governments?" Slogan? Don't sound like a slogan to me. That is in response to the anti-gun nuts saying that the NRA owns the government and, THEREBY, the anti-gun nuts. If the NRA is bad, get rid of it... oh, yeah, the anti's can't because even tho they far outnumber the NRA they are fuckin pussies who couldn't organize an orgy in a whorehouse with a hand full of hundred dollar bills and a half dozen drunk sailors... give me a fuckin break eh! As far as corrupt governments around the world... seems to me ther is a whole lotta shooting goin on at this very moment. Let's see... Egypt, Libya, Syria... dictators being ousted every day lately... by the barrel of a gun. Is that a bad thing, Bill? "Will "rocket science" tell you exactly who & what to USE those guns on?" No. Don't need it. Got common sense. I thought that was common sense??? "Is the alternative to "keeping your government from being corrupt enough to be a problem" just allowing crazy, angry idiots to keep shooting up theaters and schools?" What? I just dunno what the question or the implicatiion is. Is there not a double negative in there that I don't understand when I try to understand what I think you might have asked/said/offered/proffered/whateverthefuck? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: John P Date: 10 Aug 12 - 11:22 PM Those of us that are trained will, the best that we can, prevent another if we are around and protect our kids . . . I'd love it if the only people who had guns were people who were trained to use them. Here's the gun laws I would like to see. I don't think it makes me an anti-gun nut or an idiot: Gun owners should have to have extensive training and need a license in order to own any type of gun. Extensive background checks for anyone applying for gun license. Even more extensive background checks for anyone applying for a concealed-carry permit. The permit should have to be renewed every year, with a new background check. No pertinent information about someone's mental stability should be off limits. You should have to show a reason for carrying a concealed weapon, and "self protection" shouldn't be sufficient reason. My preference would be for no concealed carry at all. Why should I have to put up with a bunch of yahoos with guns in their pockets? (I'm not saying all gun owners are yahoos. I'm saying that any yahoo can get a concealed-carry permit and I think that's really dumb). If your gun falls into the hands of a child, you lose the right to own a gun and you go to jail for a really long time. No guns at all within a mile of a school, even if that's where your house is. Live somewhere else. No guns in public parks. No guns on public transportation. Being in possession of a gun while drunk should cause you to lose your gun license. Any violently threatening remark should cause you to lose your gun license. Membership in a hate group should cause you lose your gun license. Gun shows should be illegal. A private individual selling a gun to another private individual should be illegal. All drugs should be legal. Let's take away one of the main reasons for gang violence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: John P Date: 10 Aug 12 - 11:34 PM Jumping up and down and saying guns kill people is stunned as me arse but they still do it... Are you saying that guns shoot flowers that send pretty scents wafting gently into the nostrils of the targets? Perhaps you are saying that none of the recent murderous whackos used guns to commit their murders? How many would have died had the guy in Colorado walked into that theater with a chair? Ok, even if he had a machete? One of the reasons the "anti-gun nuts" get sort of riled up is because of the type of insulting comments you make. You come across as irrational, which is not what you want people thinking about you while you are advocating gun ownership. The anger and derogative speech you are displaying on this topic should probably be taken into account while we are deciding whether or not to issue you a gun license. If you can't keep your cool, you shouldn't own a gun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: bobad Date: 14 Aug 12 - 08:17 AM Good thing this guy didn't have his piece: Canadians mock U.S. tourist who complained about not being able to carry a gun |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 14 Aug 12 - 01:00 PM You note he thanked "the lord Jesus Christ" that he didn't get assaulted by those scary folks....who were only suggesting he attend the rodeo. I do wonder what THEY would have said if he had had a weapon! "Help...the paranoids are after me!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stu Date: 14 Aug 12 - 01:14 PM Poor, scared chap. Best not let him come here to the UK or Ireland, he'd be blasting everything in sight when the banter starts. There's a man that needs help, lost all sense of perspective and is obviously very frightened and you've let him have a gun. Stone the crows. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 14 Aug 12 - 04:34 PM John P... "Are you saying that guns shoot flowers that send pretty scents wafting gently into the nostrils of the targets?" Ahhhh, are you on drugs? "Perhaps you are saying that none of the recent murderous whackos used guns to commit their murders?" Ahhhh, you really shouldn't take drugs that mess up your mind that badly. "How many would have died had the guy in Colorado walked into that theater with a chair?" Seriously, give up the drugs eh. "Ok, even if he had a machete?" I hope you are not paying a lot for your drugs. "One of the reasons the "anti-gun nuts" get sort of riled up is because of the type of insulting comments you make. You come across as irrational, which is not what you want people thinking about you while you are advocating gun ownership. The anger and derogative speech you are displaying on this topic should probably be taken into account while we are deciding whether or not to issue you a gun license. If you can't keep your cool, you shouldn't own a gun." You really should read ALL my posts on ALL the gun threads OR at least on this thread. Fact is, most antis just keep posting the same old bullshit (like you just did) and never get to work. It's people like YOU that I aim my "language" at BECAUSE talking nice and logical did not work for me in the past. Insulting comments? Bullshit... those comments are the truth and if you are too pussy to take it you deserve what you get. To reiterate... stop being such pussies and wasting your and everyone else's time and DO something to get the job done or shut the fuck up. Am I talkin to a fuckin wall? I tell you how you are fuckin up and why, thereby, the NRA is winning. I tell you how to defeat them. Yet, you do the EXACT SAME THING YET AGAIN by the post I quote that allows the NRA to beat your ass. My "anger and derogative speech" are not the problem... YOU are the problem. Only YOU can fix that problem and shittin on me because I am pissed about you pussies moanin and whinin and not gettin the job done is just... stunned as me arse. Oh, yeah... YOU deciding if I can own a gun? Fuck you. You can't even get yer shit together and take on the NRA. Like I'd want you backin me up in a fight??? or allow YOU to tell me if I can have a gun? I might be a little abrasive in my language and demeanour when I gotta put up with bullshit but you can't even see that I am on your side. THAT tells me a lot about YOUR intelligence and demeanour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 15 Aug 12 - 03:53 PM History repeats itself, first as tragedy, secondly as farce: Reno concealed gun carrier shoots himself in the bum in a cinema |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 15 Aug 12 - 05:51 PM The fact that he was carrying the gun in his pocket rather than in a reliable holster, and that obviously the safety was off or it would not have discharged accidentally (which is what the safety is there to prevent), more than amply demonstrates that the fellow was a couple of Chicken McNuggets short of a Happy Meal. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST Date: 15 Aug 12 - 08:02 PM YOU NARE A SICK COUNTRY |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 15 Aug 12 - 08:12 PM YOU NARE AN ANONYMOUS TROLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Aug 12 - 11:56 PM What does NARE mean? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 16 Aug 12 - 02:36 AM I though Nare was a product that women used to remove hair on their legs.... Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: John P Date: 16 Aug 12 - 09:41 AM I'd like to get people's ideas about the definition of "responsible gun owner". I hear lots of people saying responsible gun owners want or believe this or that, and it strikes me that if we could come up with a reasonable definition we might be able to have a better discussion about what should or shouldn't be illegal. I posted a list of laws I'd like to see enacted, but haven't seen any responses to them. Maybe we should take them one at a time. gnu, olddude, do you think that having thorough training is part of the definition of being a responsible gun owner? Should we require it? Taken from the other side, is it irresponsible to not require gun owners to be trained in the safe use of guns? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Megan L Date: 16 Aug 12 - 09:59 AM Matthew 26:52 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 12 - 11:43 AM John P. ..I would happily vote for almost all of your proposals, except for amending those which implicitly contradict others: IF someone passes all the stringent requirements and need to have a carry permit, it is not reasonable to say: "No guns at all within a mile of a school," "No guns in public parks." "No guns on public transportation." So... amendments to cover those situations. And...hmmm... ALL drugs should be legal? No...sorry. Maybe pot, on a 2 year test basis....then we'll discuss others. But several illegal drugs do such violent thing to body & mind that even reducing crime may not justify it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 16 Aug 12 - 11:50 AM John the training aspect is a sore subject to me ... It all depends on the state. some states it is nothing more than a 2 hour class. Other states like mine it is far more substantial. Many states do not require anything more than a criminal background check. Mine will also look at the mental health of the person requiring or at least they say they do. That is why there really needs to be a federal standard ...some states it is so easy and others it is so hard .. Me I think at least 100 hours on the range min would be a good requirement with a certified instructor just to make sure people really know how to control and handle a weapon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stu Date: 16 Aug 12 - 12:40 PM I'm starting a campaign for people to be allowed to carry big fuckoff knives (like a machete or a Gurkha's), halberds, pikestaffs, knives like wot Rambo has, saxon battle-axes, flicknives, maces and any type of sword. They are to be allowed in cinemas, restaurants and boozers or anywhere else people congregate for reasons social, commercial, political or religious. To be allowed to carry one of these deadly weapons you need two things: 1) Tell the bloke behind the desk you're not mad, a loony or a reet nutter and he'll give you a piece of paper confirming this. 2) Have access to an internet connection and credit (to purchase said deadly weapon with). Now this might seem a tad irresponsible, but hear me out. Firstly, remember that claymore swords don't kill people, people with claymore swords do. It's all fine and dandy blaming the person, but if the bloke behind the desk thinks they're all right, not schizophrenic, delusional (politicians and religious types exempt), insane, have hairy palms or are bipolar, clinically depressed or even a bit glum (cos those people are mad, right?) then that means everything is tickety-boo. Only us happy, sane people will be allowed to carry a Ninja sword (we know who were don't we?). In 1511, Henry VIII (a king of England) banned games (such as football) which interfered with archery practice, which commoners (that's us) were obliged by law to attend every Sunday. This law has never been repealed (true). It was put on the statute books so should those pesky French get too leery and attempt another invasion this time we would be ready for the buggers. Obviously we can't all carry longbows to defend ourselves against the ever-looming threat of French invasion (I do own one though, a Bickerstaffe) as it isn't practical, so I think it's safe to assume this law will let us carry sharp or pointy things about instead for our defence; in all honesty, the law obviously allows that and to deny ordinary citizens that right is unEnglish, undemocratic and downright dangerous in this day and age. I mean, there are people out there who ALREADY HAVE SHARP, POINTY THINGS. Scary or WHAT!!!!! We need protection and the peelers don't have the time (or inclination) to protect us all so let's honour Henry VIII (an Anglo-Welsh King born in Sarf London) and if you don't you obviously don't care about our country you effin' commie traitor . . . (deep breaths, calm down, think of nice things like oranges). Apologies. Got a bit heated there. So it's only fair we should be allowed to carry lethal, sharp weapons where we want, and if out broadsword take out the eye of the lady behind us in the flicks when we sit down (having not secured it properly - we're only human you know), then tough titties, at least she's free! Chop off a kiddie's ear with a trailing sabre? Unlucky - it was an accident and it would have happened had we not been carrying our rapier. Fools! We'll show the soft sods. We need protection from the sword-wielding madmen besieging our towns, running rampant down our city streets or even peeing in our bogs. The king that outlawed our main religion, destroyed a wodge of our written heritage and demolished thousand-year-old monasteries says we should be armed as a people, so there. It is written. Now that's 21st Century freedom we're talking about! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Aug 12 - 12:50 PM After "deep breaths, calm down, think of nice things like oranges" I thought you were going to break into the song entitled 'Suzanne'. I was going to ask you for one of the sharp and pointy implements and directions for which way is east. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 12 - 01:53 PM John, you said you'd like to know the definition of a "responsible gun owner"? Well, it seems obvious to me. A responsible gun owner, like a responsible automobile owner, is someone who has the sense not to use his gun or car (or anything else he owns) in an irresponsible and/or unlawful or harmful manner. Period. And most gun owner and car owners, by that definition, are responsible people most of the time. My Uncle Bill, for example, was a responsible gun owner. He always had quite an interest in guns, in target practice, and in duck hunting. He always owned a few guns. He enjoyed them as precision and historical instruments (appreciating the craft that went into making them, the level of quality of different ones, the history of that craft, etc). He enjoyed being a good marksman. He enjoyed hunting. He lived in the country, and like many other rural people back then (and still now), he was used to being around guns a certain amount. They would not have struck him as an unusual thing to have, because when he was growing up they weren't an unusual thing to have when you lived on farms or in the country. These were long guns, not handguns. He was a completely gentle and harmless person, patient and tolerant, kind, responsible, law-abiding, not a person who ever committed a violent act against another person in his entire adult life. He was a really nice man. He kept his guns responsibly and safely, made sure that they were not loaded or in any way accessible to his children (2 daughters), and he handled them with the utmost care at all times to avoid endangering himself and others. A good number of ducks met their end because of my Uncle's interest in guns, and I'm sorry for the ducks, but I can't fault him for being a duck hunter. It's not a crime. My Uncle eventually passed away having never once misused a gun or broken the law with a gun. There are a great many other people like my Uncle living quietly all over the place. You don't hear about them on the "News" (the entertainment, fear, and propaganda network)....because they didn't shoot anyone. Those are responsible gun owners. They probably outnumber irresponsible gun owners by about 5,000 to 1...but the only people you will ever hear about on the "News" are the few unstable and disturbed individuals and the people in drug gangs who go out and commit a violent crime. Are there some legal improvements that could be made to increase public safety? Sure. And people here have suggested quite a number of them...but demonizing gun owners in general and stereotyping them in a perceived group together as "gun nuts" does not lead to any kind of useful public discussion...and it reinforces conservative organizations like the NRA by making them think that "the liberals" are all just a bunch of crazy people, extreme control freaks suffering from an obsessive complex of some kind. When you stereotype them...they stereotype you! This doesn't help anyone. I say this AS someone who is definitely a liberal, and I always have been. But I'm not a control freak over other people's lives and over their lifestyle choices and their hobbies. If they don't break the laws and if they don't harm anyone, I have no quarrel with them...nor do I expect them to "be like me or see like me". (line from Bob Dylan in the song "All I Really Want To Do") |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 16 Aug 12 - 04:38 PM > No guns within a mile of a school. Impossible. That way a registered gun owner could be arrested and convicted even if he had no idea he was within a mile of a school. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 16 Aug 12 - 06:26 PM "gnu, olddude, do you think that having thorough training is part of the definition of being a responsible gun owner? Should we require it? Taken from the other side, is it irresponsible to not require gun owners to be trained in the safe use of guns?" Sorry, bud but I gotta take an "Oh, fuck me, here we go again." on this one. And, the subsequent posts.. gee whilikers eh??? It's been done a thousand times and you antis just keep yappin and you just keep doin nothin... squat... shit about it. I challenge any of you to start an org to get something done. I'll be an advisor... Dan will probably volunteer likewise... there are many RESPONSIBLE gun owners here who don't need a fucking definition of who they are to help out getting the problem solved. Just seems nobody wants to do anything more than ween about it and shit on responsible gun owners... and you had better think about that before any of you say you are just shitting on irresponsible gun owners because, if you do, you haven't understood any of my posts... or even READ them. I gotta try to just leave this thread before my head explodes... BUT before I do TRY... no guns allowed to be stored or carried within a mile of a school or in public parks or on public transportation??? That is way beyond a "Fuck me, are you serious?" Do you think for one minute the NRA can't shut you down / shit all over you for that? And not just because of what Lighter so aptly stated. Sorry for being so upset and venting but I have been trying to educate people on both sides of this issue here in Mudcat for ten years or so and at least ten years before that in my area. It's a serious problem that will get worse but proposing illogical and counter-productive gun laws will NEVER EVER fly. If any of you ever read back through my and others' posting history on this subject you will come to understand that there are good gun laws and bad gun laws. A buddy of mine lost his head over a bad gun law. Lost his head. A guy cut off his head with a sword. I shant explain... look it up... it's "in the threads". The NRA is not more powerful than logic so don't spew illogical crap. It hasn't worked yet. Try something reasonable. One last time... stop weening and do something about the problem. This continuous bullshit is enough to make my head explode. gnightgnu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: John P Date: 16 Aug 12 - 11:16 PM So, I'll put in the "no training needed" column. How does that keep idiots from doing ignorant things with guns? Why shouldn't we take steps to help protect ourselves from people who are carrying deadly implements without knowing how to use them? Why in the world should I start an organization? Should I also start one to stop war, stop capitalism, stop poverty, stop prohibition, stop money in politics, stop discrimination? What's wrong with talking about a problem and exploring the issues? Speaking of which, does it fit within your definition of a responsible gun owner to allow children to have unsupervised access to a gun? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 17 Aug 12 - 06:34 AM "So, I'll put in the "no training needed" column." The first words out of your mouth are, simply, inane and the last words are worse. Dunno why I bothered to open this thread again except that I now know fer sure I needn't bother. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: John P Date: 17 Aug 12 - 09:44 AM olddude, gnu seems unable to do anything other than fulminate. Would you be willing to comment on what it means to be a responsible gun owner and whether or not we should have laws that require responsibility? I've heard what you've had to say about yourself on the subject, and if all gun owners were like you I'd sleep better at night. What I'm interested in exploring is what, if anything, to do about the gun owners who are not like you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 17 Aug 12 - 10:43 AM John Handgun laws are a mish mosh in the US all governed by state law. Without a federal carry standard it will be all over the place. I grew up with guns, I could shoot before I could ride a bike. One thing you never did in our house was go near the "LOCKED" gun case. Like my dad I pull the bolts out of the weapons (rifles) and for handguns I pull the slides and lock them all in a safe. No kid will ever get a firearm in my house. Some states require a handgun to be locked up when not carried. Other states OH well. The definition of responsible is more of common sense ... the first rule of all guns is "treat all guns like they are always loaded" Second is never point at anything you do not wish to destroy. So many injuries have been caused by "unloaded gun" To hunt in pretty much any state requires a safety course. If one is going to do concealed carry, the standard of safety must be much higher than that of hunting. Sadly that is not the case in many states so a federal standard should be made |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 17 Aug 12 - 10:50 AM by the way, in every state, every police officer is required to qualify on the range with their weapon once a year to prove they are proficient with it and that safety is ensured. A private citizen who carries is more or less a defacto police officer. One should have to maintain their proficiency to continue to carry in public I think |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack Campin Date: 17 Aug 12 - 11:02 AM I was amazed by one comment in this: Science Daily on robots for defusing pipe bombs Thousands of pipe bombs are made each year, and thousands of pipe bomb threats are called into local police and FBI authorities across the country. I was near one in Pittsburgh in 1976 - it was in the storage tank of a gas station, with two other gas stations on the same intersection. The fourth corner was a multistorey block of sheltered housing for old Jewish people, and I was 50 yards away. If it it had gone off, I and the old Jews would have gone up in the biggest fireball America had seen since Pearl Harbor. It was found and defused; it was part of an extortion campaign and a few other gas stations around the city were targeted. I thought at the time that that was a wildly aberrant event. But it seems it's absolutely routine, something virtually every urban police force would expect to deal with annually. Try defending against that with a concealed pistol. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 17 Aug 12 - 02:27 PM "Try defending against that with a concealed pistol." I'm sorry, Jack, but that doesn't compute. That makes as much sense as opposing fly swatters because they're ineffective against nuclear bombs. I'm very much for reasonable and intelligent gun laws and stringent requirements that those who wish to own guns must—as a precondition to purchase—be trained in their use and abuse, and then pass periodic examinations. With the millions of firearms already out and about, the genie is out of the bottle. So especially those who feel it necessary to carry a weapon should be required by law to demonstrate knowledge of proper use and abuse, and competence. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 24 Aug 12 - 05:19 PM And the beat goes on in New York and Chicago... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 24 Aug 12 - 06:06 PM You bet, Bobert - the hits just keep coming on WNRA ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Aug 12 - 06:08 PM "A 53-year-old man fired a year ago gunned down a former co-worker outside the Empire State Building in New York Friday morning before he was shot and killed by police, authorities say. Another nine people were shot or grazed in the gunfire, some of them apparently by police officers, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said at a news conference in the middle of Fifth Ave. shortly before noon Friday. All of the injured are expected to recover, he said." Seems even training didn't help all that much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 24 Aug 12 - 06:30 PM Well here is the deal, I trust my own shooting cause the city cops sure as hell can't shoot. 11 people injured in the exchange .. cops are suppose to shoot straight and know what is behind the target instead of spray and pray. Me I trust my own shooting and hopefully never have to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 24 Aug 12 - 07:17 PM Well, gee Dan! We'll just clone YOU ... about 25 million times, and put copies of you on patrol in all the cities. That'll fix it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:04 PM No comment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: redhorse Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:02 AM "responsible gun owner" is like "good driver". Everyone believes he's one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:23 AM Right, redhorse...There is a good chance that some of the folks shot in New York were victims of "trained" friendly fire... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Sugarfoot Date: 25 Aug 12 - 09:55 AM This bloke in NYC would have caused the same deaths and injuries if he had been armed with a turnip. Because guns don't kill people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:22 AM Absolutely right! Guns DON'T kill people. BULLETS kill people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 25 Aug 12 - 12:13 PM I heard a commentator note that there was an incident where a guy armed with a hammer started hitting bystanders. 5-6 jumped on him and held him down and it was all over. I think there's a vague point there........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 25 Aug 12 - 02:18 PM Thanks Bill but if ya clone me, can I have a better back? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 25 Aug 12 - 03:20 PM Majority rules. The majority are not whacked out. The majority are not scared of the whacked out. The majority are scared of people who think the majority are whacked out and want to impose laws on them that limit their ability to defend themselves. Another zillion posts to all these threads will not change the fact that logical and reasonable laws regulating gun ownership should have been in place YEARS ago but it CANNOT get done because the anti-gun nuts are neither logical or reasonable in their demands or in their approach. Yeah... broken record... that's me. BUT, so are you antis and you haven't got shit done for YEARS! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 25 Aug 12 - 04:25 PM As I heard it, Bill, it was only a hypothetical incident. The point is that a hammer isn't as dangerous as a gun. (Duh!) Also, bullets don't kill people either, unless you load them in a gun held by a guy who's trying to kill people. Bullets would be harmless if guys like that didn't have guns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: redhorse Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:27 PM The hammer story may be hypothetical, but here in UK in 1966 we had two "wacked-out" attacks on schoolchildren: Dunblane (March)man armed with guns, teacher trying to protect children killed, 16 children killed Wolverhampton (July)man armed with machete, teacher trying to protect children severely injured, three children injured, man fought off, no fatalities. maybe guns don't kill people, but they make it a damn sight easier |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 25 Aug 12 - 06:36 PM "maybe guns don't kill people, but they make it a damn sight easier" sure does, never leave home without one anymore |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:11 PM Ya ain't helpin things, Dan but I can understand yer frustration. Yer startin ta sound like me... >;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:22 PM I'm with gn-ze here... More guns out there ain't the answer... Less guns is... It would be so easy to pull off a gun registration without impinging on any law abiding citizen to own guns... It seems that the NRA is perfectly happy with criminals and wackos owning as many guns as they like... The NRA is 100% about selling more and more guns... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:34 PM Dan's point 'seems' to be.. "I can't help all the crazy people out there abusing the system, but I can help control the space immediately around myself." If that is it, he has a certain kind of logic.... but obviously, all the places where we can't deploy Dan clones still make headlines. MY point is that because we can't clone enough good guys...(and couldn't feed 'em if we cold clone 'em).. we really need some way to reduce guns AND/OR access to guns, 'cause we sure ain't gonna reduce crazy people. Gnu still notes that "...you antis and you haven't got shit done for YEARS!".... and I agree... but us 'antis' have kept trying. When we depend on useful laws, and politicians who write laws are in hock to the NRA, it's kinda like asking colleges to ban football because kids get hurt- there's just too much money involved from alumni. Maybe if some buys an AK-47 legally and shoots up the NRA offices? naawwww... they'd just call that a good example of why they need guns. Maybe if ........... *sigh* I dunno... (4-5 shooting incidents around my area (DC metro) every week) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:52 PM Count yourself lucky, Bill... Here in Charlotte the morning news is filled with murder... Every day!!! It's usually 2 or three but every day someone gets murdered... Every day... No shit... Every single day... Chicago??? Worse than here... 16 the other day... Man, this is insane... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:56 PM Let's see, five American Presidents have been shot by nuts with guns, four of them fatally, and two of them within living memory. And there've been a few other attempts. But [IRONY FOLLOWS] God forbid that we do any more to keep guns away from nuts. It would be *wrong* and a *threat to the freedom granted us by the Creator*! [END OF IRONY]. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 25 Aug 12 - 09:30 PM You point Bill is well taken. I personally do not recommend anyone carrying a weapon unless they are committed to serious training and understand the use laws inside and out. While carrying you are acting as a cop without a badge and unless you have equal or even more training you shouldn't. You will endanger yourself and others. I carry not because I am afraid, I fear nothing never have. I fear Jell-o maybe LOL. I carry because no one is going to hurt some unarmed people or kids on my watch .. I won't allow it. It is like when I am on an airplane. I am not armed but the thousand years of martial arts training, the people around me are just safer and don't know it . It is a very serious thing to carry a firearm in public, you really do need the training. If a person commits to that and can pass all the background checks .. sure thing you got my support, go ahead and carry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 25 Aug 12 - 09:41 PM Here's the real deal... Yeah, some folks are skilled... Even skilled folks screw up in crowded places... More than likely some of the shooting victims in New York were more than likely shot by the good guys... I would be perfectly willing to not have the number of skilled guys out there if that is the price we have to pay to get guns out of the hnads of the wackos... I mean, if one olddude without a gun on the street = 100 wackos without guns than it's a no brainer... We have to start somewhere or we will end up killing off everyone... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:11 PM Ahhh but that is the rub as they say right ... how do you stop the wacko's if no one is gonna change any laws to make sense of it all. I wrote letters and emails and so have police and sheriff's depts to try and get the gun show loophole closed .. no elected official has the balls to even discuss it |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 25 Aug 12 - 11:00 PM All of the wounded in New York were shot by police, according to the ballistics reports. Wacked out police with guns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Sawzaw Date: 26 Aug 12 - 01:15 AM Just about everybody I talk to says it is a shame nobody in there had a gun to shoot the bastard with. There will always be a gun for a determined asshole to shoot somebody with even if they have to make it themselves. Look at the bombers. You can't buy a bomb anywhere I know of. Bombs are illegal as far as I know. The bombers make them. Ask Bernardine Dohrn and Bill Ayers. They are experienced. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 26 Aug 12 - 08:43 AM Like I said, Ol'ster... We first need to change the conversation away from "Shut the heck up, liberals" to "Let's talk"... The longests journey begins with a single step... Getting the NRA to stand down for a friggin' minute and quit shouting at everyone is that step... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,999 Date: 26 Aug 12 - 02:52 PM "Getting the NRA to stand down for a friggin' minute and quit shouting at everyone is that step..." I fail to see the difficulty. Oh, I see that there would be difficulties if one listened to or read the NRA's pronouncements, but if one didn't and simply argued with facts and sense, then the NRA would cease to be a problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 26 Aug 12 - 03:05 PM Everyone knows the NRA's positions... They shout it from the mountain top... But the NRA can only guess what the other side is saying because they are too busy shouting to hear anything at all so they make up stuff that they think the other side would say even though they really are clueless... So they argue with themselves so loud that nothing gets in... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 26 Aug 12 - 04:17 PM So... I guess it takes a responsible gun owner who is also an advocate of gun ownership to start the process. I don't really wanna do this but after ten years of these threads that go nowhere, I'd rather TRY to do it than defend and chastise. Bobert said... "Let's talk." Okay, let's talk. But, frist, I have a couple of things to say. Fuck the NRA and (sorry, but... hey?) fuck anyone who says they are idiots who cannot be forced to accept reasonable laws. The next post that says the NRA CANNOT be forced to accept reasonable gun control... I am gone in 60 seconds. Fuck the antis who say all guns have to go. They are to be ignored and the reasons are obvious to anyone who has read the threads and also has an IQ in double digits. I see NO reason why the Mudcatters herein cannot begin a dialogue which will lead to getting the job done... unless you are the bunch of pussies I accused you of being. Stand up and DO something about the problem or... yeah, I am gonna say it AGAIN... shut the fuck up. Now, let's talk. But first, I have a request. I would like everyone who has posted to this thread and who posts to this thread to read EVERY FUCKING WORD OF EVERY PAGE FOUND ON THIS LINK. You can cry foul all day long but if ya can't tell the NRA what yer gonna shove up their ass yer just cluckin and yer gonna get plucked. So... any readers willin ta read about an excellent (I have some BIG problems with some of the legislation and I know it's gotta be tweaked to get by in the good ol USA but that will come in future discussions) piece of legislation? If so, we can continue talking and marshall the collective resources of Mudcatters to start a movement for responsible gun ownership in the USA. Seriously, Mudcat has everything needed to get the job done except, it SEEMS to me, someone to LEAD the process. So, if any of you are serious about your concerns, read about legislation in other countries and provide POSITIVE suggestions about how to get the job done instead of weening like a bunch of pussies. First things first (after you read the links above). The organization's name? "Responsible Gun Ownership USA"? "Mudcatters For Peace In The Streets"... yes, I know it sucks... whaddya got??? As for a website down the road for discussion and getting the word out, ANYone here know ANYthing about websites? Anyone here got any expertise in law, politics, guns, anything related? Anyone know anything about gun laws in their own state that can be added to the new site's data base with regard to how the laws on the books are viewed by the state residents? Right... I'll stop throwing out comments, ideas, suggestions. Surely after we all have read up and reflected, a proper brainstorming session can be organized. Second order of business should be selecting a chairman. I suggest someone with... nah, fuck that... I nominate JiK. I would nominate others, including myself, but I think JiK would be a shoe-in simply because he seems intelligent and reasonable. Knows fuckin near everything too but that goes without sayin. In the end... is ANY antigun nut here in Mudcat willing to put their money where their mouth is and work toward responsible gun ownership in the USA? Or are youse a bunch of weening pussies who don't understand the NRA and their objections to ANY legislation EVEN if they agree with it? Are youse willing to DO something? IF you are right, FIGHT. If you don't wanna fight, shut the fuck up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 26 Aug 12 - 05:10 PM if one didn't and simply argued with facts and sense 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd. However, Bruce, you've likely noticed that facts and sense don't signify with a substantial segment of the U.S. population of late. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 26 Aug 12 - 05:50 PM "However, Bruce, you've likely noticed that facts and sense don't signify with a substantial segment of the U.S. population of late." So, I guess, Greg, you will be on board with my proposed initiative to change that? I assume you are busily studying the Canuck gun laws I linked to above at this very moment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 26 Aug 12 - 05:58 PM Our realiteis are not that clear cut, gn-ze... You see, our system of government is broken... That means that there is no way to get laws passed that are reasonable and make sense... 9 out of 10 Americans would like for whackos to not beable to get their hands on guns but... ...even so there is no way to get the will of the people into laws... We are in a pickle with Citizens United, no real campaign finance laws, safe districts and one of the most propagandized populations in the industrial world... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 26 Aug 12 - 07:52 PM Bobert: I am truly sad to hear one of the people I respect the most in this here Café say "Fuck it. No way good people can win." Glad to hear that I don't have to be bothered trying to help get something done down south TOO. I thought it wasn't that big a challenge but if it's impossible, well, yeah, fuck it. Not a big deal to ME on accounta I live in a country with good (for the most part) gun laws. ******************************************************************** There it is, folks. Done deal. Yankees roll over and let the NRA fuck them up the ass. You antis better pray Dan or I am on the ball when you need us. Of course, Dan is your go-to-guy on accounta he can carry heat 24/7. I can't "carry" because I live in a country with decent gun laws. Oh... did anyone notice that took TWO posts? Two. 2. Count em... 2 posts and the NRA wins. Pussies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Sawzaw Date: 27 Aug 12 - 07:08 AM Bobert advises people to "buy guns, lots of ammo and learn to shoot straight 'cause these rednecks mean to kill people who ain't like them... they are out there preachin' violence" Is he a spokesperson for the NRA? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 27 Aug 12 - 07:16 AM Can you paste the whole post, Sawz? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Sawzaw Date: 27 Aug 12 - 07:54 AM Yeah, Amos.... Amazing that all it took to bring back the right-winged "Patriot Movement" was the election of a black president... This is what this is all about... Hey, these people never ever complained about governemnt spending while Bush was going on a spending spree unparalelled in history... But let a black man become president and it's time for the "revolution"... Might of fact, Obama has cut taxes for 95% of workers yet these same people are pissed off and most would tell you that Obama has raised their taxes... And Obama wants to take yer guns.... And Obama isn't a citizen... And, and, and... ...fucking bigots as far as I can see and now they want to kill people??? Yup, this country is way dumbed-down... Too many ignorant bigots can't get enough of the Big Lie... Reminds me of Germany in the late 30s... Lotta same stuff going down... To all my progressive friends: like Rap has said, buy guns, lots of ammo and learn to shoot straight 'cause these rednecks mean to kill people who ain't like them... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 27 Aug 12 - 10:57 AM Sorry, Gnu, but I ain't a-gonna wade thru a thousand pages of legalese, however germaine or useful. Yep, I own firearms of all types, have been trained to use 'em & practice regularly. As stated repeatedly by others, the first rational steps would be: 1. To close the Gun Show loophole 2. To strengthen and regularize State laws/regulations across the country (or enact a Fedural Statute to accomplish the same thing) so that some slug can't purchase a handgun in a state like Florida (there are others), where the only requirement is that the purchaser be breathing (and that can be waived upon application) bring it to New York, which has some of the most rational regulations in the country, and shoot someone there. These changes have been proposed, lobbied & fought for over a period of decades by a number of EXISTING organizations in the U.S.- Here's One - no need for "Mudcatters Against Criminal Stupidity" - to no avail. It ain't the NRA - its the mindless fu*ks that the NRA is able to terrorize - same folks as the Birthers, Flat-Earthers, and the host of other mental deficients that infest the nation. Some folks - and their numbers are increasing exponentially- are impervious to facts, Gnu, and I wish I knew (or Gnu?) how to address THAT problem. |
