BS: Racism in the UK media

Subject: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:59 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/22/how-racism-takes-root?INTCMP=SRCH

In the above article Joseph Harker discusses the different ways in which the media treated two cases of systematic grooming of the young for sexual purposes. In one case the perpetrators were Muslim. In the other largely not.

I wonder if those who have posted here in criticism of Muslim communities and values would like to re-evaluate their contributions to this debate to date.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:06 AM

I did post criticisms, but they came from the community in question.

When Straw put this story into the media, he acknowledged from the start that most child abusers were white, and so did I.

The story was about a particular kind of child abuse; that of men colluding in gangs to groom, abuse and pimp large numbers of minors.
(The above story is about lone paedophiles.)

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:49 AM

Institutionalised racism in the UK?

Who'd of thought it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:14 AM

Please also read this Daily Telegraph piece.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9252003/Rochdale-grooming-trial-Mohammed-Shafiq-the-campaigner-who-stood-up-to-the-abusers.html#

(Link maker does not work on Telegraph. Sorry)

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:14 AM

Interesting! Children are suffering, but you prefer to criticize the politico-social attitudes of those who expose the abusers.

Look, just admit to yourself "I can't handle this," and send some money to a good organization which is trying to help such children. Than get on with your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:43 AM

Trigger finger at the expense of any given accused group will not achieve best outcomes for the children. Nor for the accused minority group.

Keith - we've probably all seen that before. It rather makes my point I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:53 AM

not achieve best outcomes for the children.

The Rochdale abuse could have been stopped years earlier but for community sensitivities, and no doubt many other cases.

Did you read the Telegraph piece?
What have you seen before that you are dismissing?
What is the point you think it makes?

Please be explicit.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 10:44 AM

I think prejudice and racism exist in many types of reaction to crime. For instance, Brits abroad are 'drunkards', Lithuanians 'skim bank cards at ATMs' or 'steal metal', Nigerians 'run scams', 'commit witchcraft crimes' etc etc. The trouble is that the media don't give the whole picture but report sensational and 'interesting' cases that may sell papers. After 9/11, one can understand but not condone the fear of the American people of Muslim fundamentalist terrorism, but we should all try to see things in a rational way. Statistics (objectively obtained) can help to balance the picture. But most folk have gut reactions and are quick to condemn out of anger and fear. I don't see how that can be modified, it's only natural and human to lose trust in a group who 'appear' to be doing terrible things in our country. Balance and fairness in reporting is the only way, but there's no 'sensation' in that is there?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 11:09 AM

The Guardian article posted by Richard in the OP is based pretty well entirely, AFICS, on comparison between a single trial in Rochdale of an organised gang who had worked in collusion, passing girls among one another &c on the one hand; and on the other a series of separate trials in Derby over a certain period [unspecified so far as I can see] of men not even acquainted with one another, let alone acting in any sort of collusion, the only connection between whom being that they had been accused of similar crimes.

I genuinely do not see the point of the comparison being made. It's as if, at the time of the Great Train Robbery, someone had objected to the press reporting of it because money gets stolen by criminals all the time.

What point of comparison, precisely, was Mr Harker meaning to draw attention to? How is the comparison, if at all viable, meant to show a proponderance of "Racism in the UK Media" [Richard's title for this thread]?

I offer no opinion as to whether such racism is to be found in our media; I am simply exercised as to how these two separate instances – an incident/a series of incidents – are supposed to illustrate it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 11:42 AM

Harker states, "Of the daily papers, only the Guardian and the Times reported it (the Derby cases)."

The Daily Mail did.
The Independent did.

He really does not make a case for media racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 05:24 PM

Links?

Oh - and links to any right wingers here protesting about middle aged white men having a propensity to seduce children?

Yes, I've seen the Telegraph piece before. It's another piece that tries to put the blame on Islam.

M the GM you can (or at least you should) do better than that. On the one hand - the media (and some here) said "Ah, it's part of the Muslim culture" - but on the other(s) no-one said "It's about middle aged white men".

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:55 PM

The Guardian article was an impressive, thoughtful, balanced and measured rebuttal of everything that Keith and the other received-wisdom racists in "that big thread" stood for. I recommend it as a good read for everyone interested in this topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:54 AM

If you really can't see the statistical and emotive difference between discrete offences all committed by men of a particular age-group, but with no demographic connection except that of 'overwhelming numerical majority of the population', over an unspecified period, on the one hand; and organised crime perpetrated by a colluding gang drawn from a specific demographic, on the other --

then you can't.

You - & Mr Harker - 'should be able to do better than that' right back to you, Richard.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 01:54 AM

Of course there's racism in the media. When my sister comes to stop with me, I pop out in the mornings and get the Daily Mail for her. The racist - pro rich people headlines have me spluttering with rage - I have trained myself not to look.

However Richard, I will not be joining up with any movement you initiate called 'Lets be nice to Asian paedophiles'.

In fact I can't really think of a fair way to to report such a case - if half the defendants are called Mohammed - don't you think it might just give the game away a bit..

Surely there must be parts of the Asian community more deserving of your compassion than these gangs of toe-rags.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 03:15 AM

"'Lets be nice to Asian paedophiles'."
Nor any other particular brand of paedophiles, I should hope.
The problem here is not just in dealing with the actions of these "toe rags", but in preventing these incidents being used by an equally disgusting bunch of 'toe rags' who would make it a racist thing and attempt to brand "all (please insert whatever race and gender takes your fancy)" as culturally implanted perverts'.
Jack Straw did not, as suggested elsewhere, make any such suggestion, but in fact said exactly the opposite, that there were no racial or cultural implications to be drawn from the cases he was discussing. This observation was echoed by other concerned people, including police and those working directly with the victims.
"I recommend it as a good read for everyone interested in this topic."
I second Steve Shaws suggestion wholeheartedly as an antidote to the opinions put forward by "....the other received-wisdom racists in "that big thread"."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:38 AM

Steve, do we need to call each other offensive names?
If Harker rebuts anything I said, SPECIFICALLY what?
I think he just knocked down a few straw men.
Jim, look again at the statements of Straw and others.
The links you asked for Richard.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2173300/Paedophile-gang-guilty-targeting-young-girls-sex-offering-drugs-money-cuddly-toy

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/five-guilty-of-preying-on-vulnerable-girls-in-derby-sex-abuse-case-7942201.html

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 05:08 AM

Does anyone know why links do not work sometimes?
Here is the DM address, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2173300/Paedophile-gang-guilty-targeting-young-girls-sex-offering-drugs-money-cuddly-toys.html
or use the links in the comment by GoldKruger
23 July 2012 9:09AM

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 05:57 AM

Thank you for the links Keith.

So when one set say "Asian Paedophiles" why don't the others say "White paedophiles"?

Disapproval should be even-handed.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Ian Mather sans cookie
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:32 AM

In answer to the original question;

Yes, of course media can be racist. They aren't signed up to public sector style equality schemes and use solicitors to ensure they scrape along rather than fall below the line with regard to laws on promoting hate.

My only observation is that one or two on here naively think this could ever be addressed... I stopped buying newspapers a long time ago. I get The Independent on my iPhone on the basis of it is the only national newspaper to my knowledge you can get an app for without paying them for it. Subsidising newspapers (buying their output) has to be on the basis you appreciate what they print. I get through my work links to daily stories that are of professional interest, so don't have to scour them for that either.

In case nobody noticed, hating others is a human trait and sells papers. It is easier to hate a recognised group than to single out individuals. Repugnant, tempting to disagree with, but still, hate is easy and fulfils our hardwired evolution / survival instinct.

A bit like the usual diatribe that all capitalists / bankers / people who don't vote for socialist parties are collectively bad people. Same idea, just the has to be factored into the "us & them" rubbish I am dismayed to occasionally read here.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:39 AM

'hating others is a human trait@

and cats....as in 'I hate you meeces to pieces...!'

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 07:32 AM

""My only observation is that one or two on here naively think this could ever be addressed... I stopped buying newspapers a long time ago.""

Me too Ian, ever since they espoused the philosophy that "GOOD news is NOT news".

About 40 years ago!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 09:42 AM

Richard, the Derby cases were just random paedophiles, and they were not all white anyway.
If the Oldham gang had been the first and only Asian gang, perhaps they would not have been described thus.
It was the fact that it was an ongoing series of similar cases that was being highlighted.


Yes, I've seen the Telegraph piece before. It's another piece that tries to put the blame on Islam.
Are you SURE you read it?
In what way did it do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 09:46 AM

Guardian 9th May.
Racist media?
"A gang of nine Asian men who groomed white girls as young as 13 with drink and drugs were driven by lust and greed, a judge has said."

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:05 AM

I have had the pleasure of metting Keith A, I am doubtful that he is a racist.
It is good imo to question some reporting, if reporters insist on describing offenders as black muslims then they must be even handed and describe other offenders as white christian or white atheists or pinlk ceventh day adventists or yellow agnostics

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 01:15 PM

I think the media are usually pretty even handed where child abuse is concerned inasmuch as ALL child abuse cases become dramatic headline news. In fact usually pretty disgustingly so. I don't think we need to pore over the usually voluminous and gratuitous content of stories about non-Asian abusers to demonstrate that to be so.

Personally speaking, I think there's been a misattribution here, insofar as I don't believe there is any evidence whatsoever for a predilection for paedophilia within Asian or Pakistani or indeed Muslim (just to cover all bases) communities. Certainly not any morso than within White communities anyway - indeed looking at the stats, less so.

The (principally White) minors being sexually manipulated and exploited in the pimping activities of these (primarily Pakistani) gangs in Northern UK towns, were all (so far as I'm currently aware) above thirteen, in other words they were pubescent teenagers and not prepubescent young children.

These men were sexually exploiting vulnerable teenagers, they were not sexually abusing prepubescent children. Some commentators see this as an irrelevancy, an obfuscation, but I don't.

The cult of sexualising teenage girls has been with us in the West -and explicitly so- until very recently; anyone fondly remember the St. Trinian's stereotype of the 'naughty schoolgirl', or 'Please Sir'? Very popular images sexualising teenage girls from only twenty or so years ago - though they wouldn't be shown today!

Another issue is that some more traditional cultures, especially those which believe in Religiously controlling female sexuality, concealing female flesh and liberty (both sexually and otherwise) haven't yet caught on to the West's gradual acceptance of feminist ideas about women's freedom of dress and behaviour and remain stuck in the old (and also often perpetrated in the West) notion that a woman who dresses in a revealing way, is somehow "asking for it."

But just like the sexualisation of teenage girls in popular Western media, such a perception of the scantily dressed women as a "seductive Eve" in in no way exclusive to Asian culture either. Again, nothing new here.

It's time to step back from political right left divides, and start looking at the kinds of ignorance which promotes this type of abuse against women that we are currently witnessing in the North or England.

As I've intimated, I don't think these gangs necessarily exhibit attitudes about 'scantily clad' women and teenage girls, which are all that different from the UK of twenty or so years ago. I think they exhibit classist and sexist attitudes which in fact pretty much echo those of Western attitudes until more recently.

However I also think the fact that the police failed to take action until recently could be equally an example of lingering institutional sexism and classism; one wonders how many of the coppers who claim "I was afraid of the racist backlash!" quietly harboured sexist and classist sentiments about the victims?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 01:40 PM

Good post CS - I will some time or other tell you privately why I buy into some of it (or you could google "Mark Spendley" and/or "Sirisha Chhibber" (yes that is the spelling) for neither of whom I act. You would only begin to scratch the surface.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 02:21 PM

Personally speaking, I think there's been a misattribution here, insofar as I don't believe there is any evidence whatsoever for a predilection for paedophilia within Asian or Pakistani or indeed Muslim (just to cover all bases) communities. Certainly not any morso than within White communities anyway - indeed looking at the stats, less so.
I agree, but who is claiming that anyway?
Not the press, nor anyone posting here as a member.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:15 PM

?????

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:37 PM

Me too Richard ?????

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 08:45 PM

I find it somewhat amusing that Ian and Don feel that they are able to pontificate as they do about racism and the media when they both proudly claim to have boycotted newspapers for years.

"I haven't watched telly for decades, and I'm not about to start watching it now, as Coronation Street is crap!"

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 03:46 AM

???
!!!!
No-one has claimed "there is any evidence whatsoever for a predilection for paedophilia within Asian or Pakistani or indeed Muslim communities"

It is just a straw man.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 05:35 AM

It would be helpful to the cause of the debate, and the credibility of some of the contributors, if we all got out our dictionaries and got clear in our minds what "paedophile" actually means.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 06:25 AM

Strictly it refers to an orientation to pre pubescents, but is more generally applied to anyone attracted to minors.

I believe, and stated repeatedly, that the offenders we were discussing were not paedophiles but preyed on minors because they were easier meat.

There is no evidence whatsoever for a predilection for paedophilia within Asian or Pakistani or indeed Muslim communities, and no one posting as a member, nor any of the media, has ever claimed such a thing.
It was just a straw man.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 07:04 AM

""I find it somewhat amusing that Ian and Don feel that they are able to pontificate as they do about racism and the media when they both proudly claim to have boycotted newspapers for years.""

I'm so glad you are amused that we get to know exactly what the newspapers are saying by reading the posts of those who still believe what they read in 'em.

A Santa Claus is alive and we.........!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 07:07 AM

That should of course be AND Santa.......

Note to self:- Time for a new keyboard.

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 08:26 AM

Do you believe what you hear on the radio? On the telly? On the internet? From your mates down the pub? The secret of gleaning accurate information is to be careful, discriminating and critical of your sources, not to diss them en masse.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 10:24 AM

Has Harker exposed media racism?
And,
The Guardian article was an impressive, thoughtful, balanced and measured rebuttal of everything that Keith
Specifically what has it rebutted of mine?
I have found nothing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 09:01 PM

Say hello to Santa and the tooth fairy Steve, or you could try BBC News, which, though somewhat left leaning, is at least not under the thumb of corporate advertisers.

The only genuine public service broadcaster!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 09:11 PM

You don't have to read the Daily Mail to know that its run by a big load of sods. Just the headlines give the game away.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 02:22 AM

Daily Mail was instrumental in the conviction of Stephen Lawrence's killers, which is worth acknowledging.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 05:51 AM

Yes, and we all know of loathsome people from the past who were fond of their dogs, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 06:19 AM

Oh, come on Richard. The Mail is just a newspaper. Sometimes reliable, often not; sometimes does some good [Lawrence murderers], sometimes a bit dodgy in its effects.

But it isn't exactly Der Stürmer, tha knowst! Lighten up!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 06:34 AM

The Mail is a force for evil. Perhaps not as bad as the Murdoch media because it has less power, but evil all the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 06:37 AM

"Evil", eh? Well, I should dearly love to live in a world where there were no greater "evils" than the Murdoch press & the Daily Mail!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 09:53 AM

Press Awards march 2012.
Journalist Of The Year, Joseph Harker.
Newspaper Of The Year, The Daily Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 09:58 AM

Stephen's mother Doreen Lawrence:'If the Mail hadn't been publicising what was happening around Stephen and getting it out there, a lot of people wouldn't have known about the injustice around him as a young man.
'[The Mail's front page] definitely surprised me; that a newspaper was prepared to go out on a limb because at that time, even though we suspected they were guilty, there was nothing to prove that they were murderers, so to take that chance, to print that, it went show they were the guilty ones because if they weren't, they would have looked to challenge the paper over it.
'It makes a big difference to have that kind of support because you don't want to be this lone voice. To have the backing behind you does make a difference.

Stephen's father Neville Lawrence, who said that along with the intervention of Nelson Mandela, who met the Lawrence family after the murder, this newspaper's campaign was the crucial turning point in the case: 'I was in Jamaica when you ran that headline but the people who were running the campaign at the time phoned immediately to tell me what you had done.
'I was very pleased, but I admit that at first I was frightened, too, because I realised the implications. If you name people as murderers you have to be pretty sure you have the proof or you'll be in trouble.
'But the fact that the Mail – which is a very influential newspaper – went out on a limb for us showed how committed you were to the case. Not a lot of editors would have done that. Not a lot would have chanced it.

It opened the case right up, and after that the gang had nowhere to hide.'



Labour leader Ed Miliband: 'At a time when the reputation of the newspaper industry is at an all-time low, it is important to recognise when campaigning journalism makes a difference.
'That includes the honourable role the Daily Mail has played over almost two decades in helping bring the killers of Stephen Lawrence to justice.
'
Chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission Trevor Phillips: 'It is now part of history that the Daily Mail made the bold decision to run a front-page "J'accuse" pointing the finger at the five alleged killers and daring them to sue.
'It was an act of great courage by the newspaper's editor, Paul Dacre – but it was also a shrewd recognition by the most acute judge of Middle England's temperature that attitudes to race had changed profoundly.
'Dacre realised that though the origins of this tragedy lay in racial hatred, its consequences would transcend racial categories.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 11:56 AM

the daily mail supported Mosleys blackshirts during the thirties.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 12:13 PM

Were those newspapers, who reported on, and condemned, well documented examples of paedophilia within the Catholic Church, guilty of anti-Catholicism? Just asking!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 02:36 PM

Quite true GSS.
Shame on the Daily Mail of that era.
Presumably it changed its stance by 1939.
I wonder if anyone currently involved was even alive then?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 05:42 AM

The Times today.

Police files reveal vast child protection scandal
Confidential police reports and intelligence files that reveal a hidden truth about the sale and extensive use of English children for sex are exposed today. They show that for more than a decade organised groups of men were able to groom, pimp and traffic girls across the country with

September 24 2012 12:02 AM

Authorities wrote lots of reports but seemed helpless to take real action
Adults commit sex offences against a child. Police and social services are informed. They respond immediately because they have a duty to protect the weak and vulnerable. Or so one might think. It was a different story if you lived in Rotherham, South Yorkshire, for most of the past 16 years and

September 24 2012 12:01 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 05:47 AM

Exclusive: Files expose hidden child sex scandal
Andrew Norfolk Chief Investigative Reporter
Last updated at 12:01AM, September 24 2012
Confidential police reports and intelligence files that reveal a hidden truth about the sale and extensive use of English children for sex are exposed today. They show that for more than a decade organised groups of men were able to groom, pimp and traffic girls across the country with virtual impunity. Offenders were identified to police but not prosecuted. A child welfare expert, speaking under condition of anonymity, said that agencies' reluctance to tackle such street-grooming networks was "the biggest child protection scandal of our time". The Times has published several articles about a pattern of crimes across northern England and the Midlands involving groups of men, largely of Pakistani heritage, and the sexual abuse of white…

Point by point: the failings
The girls betrayed by police
The Times Leading Article
Known cases 'tip of the iceberg'
In full: The Times investigation

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 11:23 AM

The Mail and most other newspapers including the domain of the Dirty Digger and Son couldn't give two damns about truth or anything so unproductive of cash.

They will support any cause that arouses enough public interest or outrage to massively increase their sales and their income.

Never make the mistake of believing anything else about them.

That is precisely the reason why we cannot afford to allow the BBC to be funded by commercial interests instead of the current licencing.

Does anybody want Faux News over here in the UK?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 11:43 AM

It seems that this report vindicates every point that Keith has been making.....the above post...11:23am is a disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 01:08 PM

Disagreeing with the mighty Pharaoh is a disgrace?

I guess I'll have to start slagging off travellers, homosexuals, liberals etc. etc.

Anybody but the greed fuelled minions of the gutter press eh?

Naah! I think I'll pass on joining that mindset.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 01:39 AM

I would be strongly inclined to think that the police see what they want to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 01:48 AM

I daresay they might be strongly inclined to think the same of you, Richard.

Which gets us where, precisely?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 03:03 AM

The police see what they want to see.

A couple of many similar cases detailed in The Times.

A British Pakistani man aged 22 was found in a car with a bottle of vodka and a 12 year old white girl.Both were arrested and held on suspicion of car theft.Disturbing photographs of the child were found on his phone.
He was not prosecuted.

Police went to a house outside which a father was demanding the release of his daughter, who was inside with a group of British Pakistani adults.Officers found the girl,14,who had been drugged, under a bed.The father and his daughter were arrested for racial harrassment and assault respectively. Police left leaving three men in the house with two more girls.

Quote from a report to Rotheram Local Safeguarding Children Board,2010
"(one of the victims), aged 13, was found by the police at 3am on Monday 7th October 2008 in a semi derelict house alone with a large group of adult males. She was drunk, the result of having been supplied with vodka for disinhibition purposes, and there was evidence that her clothing had been disrupted. She alone was arrested for a public order offence, appeared before a Youth Court and received a Referral Order. It is recommended that her case as a potential miscarriage of justice to the Criminal Case Review Commission."

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 03:36 AM

Hidden away on BBC site today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-19701760

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 06:46 AM

The Times

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/

Keeping quiet about this is as sensible as keeping quiet about the KuKlux Klan lynching people. It doesn't reflect well on our country that we are not having this debate about about why there are sections of of the community that seem to think we are racially inferior and our children are legitimate targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 07:10 AM

ITV news.
A dossier of internal police, social services and intelligence reports alleges agencies in South Yorkshire were aware vulnerable girls were being abused, but a catalogue of suspected crimes were not prosecuted.

In one case, a white girl who was sexually abused by an Asian gang from the age of 12 was offered lessons in Urdu and Punjabi by her local council after her ordeal, to "try to engage her in education".

The papers revealed fifty-four children from Rotherham were linked to sexual exploitation by three brothers from a British Pakistani family.

An intelligence report for police identified 61 girls who were linked to sexual exploitation by three brothers from another British Pakistani family. It named 41 of the brothers' associates, who allegedly used girls for sex.

They also document an incident when neighbours heard screaming, and a 13-year-old girl was found at 3am in a house with a large group of men who had given her vodka. Police arrested the child for being drunk and disorderly but did not question the men.

The report, seen by The Times, states that such groups are believed to have trafficked victims to other cities and towns, including Bristol, Manchester, Birmingham, Bradford and Dover.

Another confidential 2010 report, for the Rotherham Safeguarding Children Board, warns against drawing too much attention to the ethnic origin of the alleged abusers.

http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2012-09-24/a-decades-worth-of-sexual-exploitation-ignored-in-south-yorkshire/

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 07:27 AM

Much of this reminds me of the campaign to free George Davis in 1975. I recall my day at Lords was ruined.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 10:14 AM

Much of the Times report can be seen here.
http://biased-bbc.com/2012/09/24/hullo-hullo-hullo-whats-not-going-on-here-then/

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 10:25 AM

Much more of what The Times had to say about what is happening can be seen from the leader in yesterday's edition.
Please note the bits in red - no "all male Pakistanis@, no "Cultural implants, no attempts to make this a race issue.
Jim Carroll

CRIMES OF SILENCE
A scandal of sexual exploitation of children exposes official failings and neglect

Protecting children from adults who intend them harm is as fundamental an obligation as any society can have. The Times reveals today a longstanding and systematic failure on the part of police and social services in South Yorkshire. Organised gangs of men preyed for years on young, teenage girls, grooming them and trafficking them for sex in cities across England.
An inescapable feature of these crimes concerns the national origins of the perpetrators and the ethnicity of the victims. Most of the abusers are men from a sub-section of British Pakistani society. Their victims are, predominantly, white girls; almost none is of Asian origin. Handled insensitively, this pattern might have inflamed ten¬sion and given sustenance to political extremists. Handled unseriously, it has had the same effect.
Andrew Norfolk, our correspondent, has seen more than 200 files covering more than a decade. They comprise correspondence from the police and social services, intelligence reports and case files. They detail a pattern of exploitation that has gone largely unpublicised and unpunished.
The authorities have evidence of the extent of sexual exploitation, including the names of hun¬dreds of victims and perpetrators. More than 50 children in Rotherham were allegedly abused by three men from a single family; many of the victims had been made pregnant. A confidential report from the South Yorkshire Police reveals that, as of late 2010, as many as 300 children in the county may still have been suffering sustained grooming and abuse.
The nature but nothing like the scale of this social evil was exposed by a case that led to the conviction of nine men in May. They had run a sex-grooming network in Rochdale. Among the victims were children in care. All but one of the criminals were of Pakistani origin. The case ex¬posed failings of organisation and imagination by the police. But it was an unusual case. The offenders were mainly older men and first-generation immigrants. The initial groomers and abusers in South Yorkshire are in the main British-born and with longer family ties to this country.
It is highly misleading to categorise these sexual abusers as "Asians" or "Muslims". Not only are the men wholly unrepresentative both of British Asians and of British Muslims, but they include not a single group case involving, for example, Hindus, Sikhs or Muslims of Indian origin. There is, however, a problem rightly identified after the Rochdale case by Baroness Warsi, the former Conservative Party chairman and a child of Pakistani immigrants. There is a minority of Pakistani men who regard white girls as "fair game" for sexual abuse.
These offences need to be countered with vigorous law enforcement and stiff exemplary sen¬tences for the guilty, in contrast to the prevailing culture of official paralysis. The reasons for such failings doubtless include a well-intentioned but in this case misguided concern not to inflame tensions. But the fundamental issue here is not about communal relations: it is about justice.
Children have been failed by the authorities. Police and Rotherham Council preferred to make implicit judgments of young girls, as if they had invited their own abuse, rather than question the perpetrators. Terrible crimes have gone unpunished; and the victims bear wounds of neglect as well as of mistreatment.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 10:27 AM

Whoops - red bits didn't come out - read from "It is highly misleading to "fair game" for sexual abuse
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 10:33 AM

It is described as a problem specifically of the British Pakistani community.
A small minority, as I always said.
There is no explanation offered for why it is.
Would you like to know what explanation was offered by Ann Cryer, Jack Straw, Mohammed Shafiq, Jasmin Allibhai-Brown and Lord Ahmed?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 10:54 AM

"A small minority, as I always said."
You have claimed that the entire male population of Pakistanis are culturally implanted towards underage sex, therefore are not to be trusted - hardly a few I think
You might take this opportunity to show us who else owes this view - Cryer, Straw.....
Don't think so.
Whatever their conclusions, they are personally held ones with no researched facts and figures to back thm up
How small a number are involed in this crime is indicated in the leader.
"Andrew Norfolk, our correspondent, has seen more than 200 files covering more than a decade"....
"More than 50 children in Rotherham were allegedly abused by three men from a single family"
If this pattern were to be repeated.
For someone who spends so much time claiming that there is not much racism in Britain you certainly put a lot of effort into showing us that it is alive and well and living in Hertford - on third of the postings to this thread are yours to date.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 11:45 AM

But I did not claim that Jim, as I keep telling you.
I only claimed that BPs were over-represented in this crime, which you kept denying.
Do you still?

Added to those five, we now have the Labour MP for Rotherham, Denis MacShane.
He said about it, "The culture of waiting to be married with someone from overseas instead of normal healthy boy-girl relationships, including responsible caring sexual relationships at the right time and age, leaves some Asian men confused as they see the rampant sexual availability promoted by the media."

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 02:07 PM

I am truly amazed that the apologists are still here.

We must never question minorities, no matter how evil or destructive their behaviour.

Some of you need to start asking yourselves some serious questions regarding your political outlook...and your moral compass.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 03:31 AM

"I am truly amazed that the apologists are still here."
There is not a single scrap of solid information linking the crime of procuring young women for underage sex with any particular race, culture or religion, yet once again the usual couple of suspects attempt to turn yet another thread into an attack on an ethnic minority.
Even those involved in assisting the victims of these crimes have warned that "It is highly misleading to categorise these sexual abusers as "Asians" or "Muslims". Not only are the men wholly unrepresentative both of British Asians and of British Muslims"...., yet a handful of you persist in attempting to show that these crimes are the result of a particular culture which has implanted a tendency to the procurement of young women for sex.
In the past you have been the first to scream "thread drift" in order to get yourselves out of holes of your own digging, yet here you are using a discussion on racism in the UK media to once again mount an attack on a culural group in Britain which is recognised as being law-abiding, industrious and valuable contributors to British society.
British Pakistani children are lagely recognised as being among the highest achievers in education, but it they who suffer as a result of racist slurs such as these.
The last time a thread on this forum was hi-jacked by individuals peddling the BNP line, the end result was the longest and most disgusting outpourings of race hatred against a single ethnic community. The subject then was prejudice against Muslims and it managed to produce outstanding examples of just that - prejudice against Muslims in the shape of British Pakistanis.
Isn't it time that the administrators took steps to prevent these subjects from being converted into soapboxes for bigots?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 03:57 AM

Even those involved in assisting the victims of these crimes have warned that "It is highly misleading to categorise these sexual abusers as "Asians" or "Muslims". Not only are the men wholly unrepresentative both of British Asians and of British Muslims"....,

Why stop the quote there Jim? It continues.
There is not an issue with "Asians" or "Muslims" but, for whatever reason, there is a problem with a small minority of British Pakistanis.

Pretending that there is not, and allowing it to continue (which is the charge against Yorkshire Police) is more dangerous to community relations than being honest about it.
It is also a betrayal of the hundreds (thousands?) of raped children.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 04:40 AM

Jim....do you really care more for the sensibilities of a small racial minority, than the damage being done to our young children.

The crime is no more paedophilia than the "priest abuse" case was, it is simply sexual abuse of minors,(in this case heterosexual abuse rather than largely homosexual abuse as in the priests case),"...of young people under the age of consent. If I remember correctly, you were incensed by the "priest abuse"...why the difference this time? The perpetrators must be held to account and an inquiry instituted to determine why there is such an over representation of British Pakistanis.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 05:02 AM

A small minority of British Pakistanis is not the entire male population of British Pakistanis as you have suggested
Your racist rant is just that - a racist rant.
"do you really care more for the sensibilities of a small racial minority"
I in no way equate any racial group with a (stated by the people working with victims) minute group of criminals.
Stop using this forum as a platform for racism - it smears us all with your shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 05:43 AM

I have never suggested such a ludicrous thing, and neither has anybody else.
A tiny minority is what I have always said.
Lies and smears are not helpful in such a sensitive issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 06:33 AM

Why go on with Jim yet again, Keith? You surely know by now that just the words "Pakistani" or "Muslim" or "Asian" bring a red mist down over his eyes which literally prevents him from seeing what is being said, but causes him to leap back into mode defensive on principle in his well-known "My mind is made up, do not confuse me with facts" stance ~~ the very attitude, tho he will of course fail to recognise it, which has led to the Chief Constable of S Yorks having been summoned before a Parliamentary Committee to explain his force's lamentable failure for all those years to protect all those unhappy young women or prosecute those unspeakable young men [Times lead story this morning].

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 06:34 AM

There is a small minority of users of this site who repeatedly instigate reference to incidents and circumstances (or alleged such) which are or would be to the discredit of those involved in such incidents and circumstances. That particular minority substantially only does so when those involved are non-white Muslim immigrants to the UK (but also sometimes does so when those involved are Romanies or others with a similar itinerant lifestyle).



Whether or not the reportage of the incidents is accurate, the repeated instigation of such references is a pattern of racist behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 06:38 AM

"I have never suggested such a ludicrous thing, and neither has anybody else."
Would you like me to put up your exact quote again Keith, thus showing you to be a liar as well as a racist - happy to oblige.
"Why go on with Jim yet again, Keith?"
Even you bauked at Keith's "All male Pakistanis" Mike - happy to dig that one out too if needed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 06:50 AM

I did at the time, admittedly. But it is not the point he is making here, Jim; to which you can only ever respond by digging out that piece of history which he has since withdrawn and explained ~~ (but I honestly haven't the energy to dig that out).

My point is, Jim, that when faced with facts which do not suit your notions, you fall back on that bit of ad hominem ancient history against Keith, instead of responding to the points currently being made. Honestly, now: do you not regard S Yorks police failures in these particulars thoroughly reprehensible; or deny tham to have been, at least prima facie [we had better see what the Chief Con says to the Select Committee] caused by the counter-productive fear of appearing racist which paralysed them from taking the necessary action? ~ and which seems to me, I am afraid, not a million miles from your own customary knee-jerk responses as described in my last post,

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 06:58 AM

"Chief Constable of S Yorks having "
Just re-read the article in case I'd missed something - I hadn't.
Nowhere does it suggest a significant number of the Pakistani (certainly not an entire gender) community being involved, nor does it attempt to make any cultural link and the crimes.
It is in fact a criticism of one of our British bobbies for not carrying out his duties, and thus being implicated in the abuse of underage girls by negligence - a suggestion that would have left both you and Keith spluttering into their whisky and sodas, were it made on another topic.
Pip-pip
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 07:04 AM

Yes Jim, put up any quote of mine, but in full.
I have always said that only a tiny minority of that community are involved in this behaviour.
To say otherwise is a lie.

Richard, it was you who instigated this discussion about Northern child grooming and trafficking.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 07:07 AM

Cross posted - he has never withdrawn his obscene suggestion - he has either denied having made it (see above) or claimed that he only holds that veiw because "experts" have made the same statement.
The fact that he has never been able to produce one single statement which implicated all male Pakistanis make his claim suspect, to say the least.
You really should be ashamed of yourself for getting involved in this garbage
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 07:09 AM

Jim, the charge against Yorks. Police is a failure to protect vulnerable children from these gangs.
That accusation was made in Monday's Times.
It was said that the gangs are overwhelmingly of BPs, and it was suggested that ethnic sensitivity was the reason they were not stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 07:16 AM

Well ~~ I hesitated to get involved again, and will withdraw because I am frankly fed up with all this ill-tempered tail-chasing -

leaving you, Jim, with just the reminder that I don't drink whisky-&-soda or any other alcoholic bevvy

which I mention because I am sure I have told you so before, and in this, as in all else, the watchword must as ever be accuracy matters.

Tara

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 07:16 AM

"I did at the time, admittedly."
PPS thanks for confirming that Keith actually said what he is claiming not to have said BTW
"Yes Jim, put up any quote of mine, but in full"
Before I do, are you really claiming that you never made the ""all male Pakistanis have a cultural implant" statement?
Not interested whether they succumb to that implant - the implication that they have it makes them a threat to any society they become attached to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 07:27 AM

Jim, that phrase was in a discussion about the cause of the behaviour, which is only opinion, and not even mine.
IN THE SAME SENTENCE, I state that only a tiny minority succumb and exhibit the actual behaviour.

I have always said that only a tiny minority are involved in this criminal behaviour.
To say otherwise is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 08:16 AM

"which is only opinion, and not even mine."
Don I DO NOW " BELIEVE THAT ALL MALE PAKISTANI MUSLIMS HAVE A CULTURALLY IMPLANTED TENDENCY" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Lying to the last
Now sod off and stop wasting my time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 08:24 AM

That was the theory of others about why some BPs do it.
I was prepared to believe it, but I do not care why they do it.
Just that it should stop.

The actual abuse of the young girls, I have always said only a tiny minority are involved.
To say or imply otherwise is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 03:09 PM

Jim, you only quoted the second sentence of my post.
Here it is with the first sentence in place.

Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things (Muslims are all evil, oppressive, chauvinist, paedophile rapists, made so by their cultural upbringing.)

Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency"

but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 03:57 PM

Keith:

Nobody anywhere has even hinted that you suggested that "Muslims are all evil, oppressive, chauvinist, paedophile rapists, made so by their cultural upbringing."
You have suggested that male Pakistanis are culturally inclined to procuring underage girls for sex. THAT IS A RACIST STATEMENT
"but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb"
You have consistently lied about saying this:
It doesn't matter whether the succumb or not, they would be a threat to any society were it in any way true.
You have also consistently claimed that you believe this is because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people
THAT IS ALSO A LIE - NOBODY PUBLIC FIGURE HAS EVER SAID SUCH A THING. HAD THEY DONE SO THEY WOULD NOT ONLY HAVE BEEN DISMISSED FROM OFFICE AND POSSIBLY BE FACING PROSECUTION.
IF YOU BELIEVE IT TO BE TRUE - PRODUCE YOUR EVIDENCE - WHO SAID IT AND WHAT DID THEY SAY
EVEN IF THEY HAD DONE SO IT WOULD STILL BE YOUR RACIST STATEMENT - YOU PUT IT FORWARD AS YOUR BELIEF
You are on your own here (I don't count Ake the phobe). Even your fairy godmother seems to have given up on you.
Take your dishonesty and distortion elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 04:21 PM

You have suggested that male Pakistanis are culturally inclined to procuring underage girls for sex.
No I have not.
That suggestion was made by eminent anti-racist people, with far more knowledge of Pakistanis than any of us, and mostly actually Pakistanis themslves.
Of course I believe them.
Why don't you?

It doesn't matter whether they succumb or not,
Of course it does.
It does not matter what tendencies someone has.
It only matters if they succumb and actually do a bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 03:13 AM

'Even your fairy godmother seems to have given up on you.'
.,,.
IIRC you mean me by this facetious locution, Jim. I have not 'given up' on Keith. simply got fed up with going over all the same ground not once but again and again and again...

I still think K is mainly right & you mainly wrong, for reasons iterated often enough. He continues to state the case. You continue to deny it by falling back on the ancient history of a clumsy form of words he employed, literally years ago; and to bury your grotesquely idiotically fatuously PC antiracist-to-the-point-of-wilful-blindness-to-reality head in the sand.

That,as you well know, is my opinion and my position. If I have 'given up' on anything, it is simply the ad nauseam reiteration of it.

I can't think why you both don't shut up about it too. We all know where you both stand; we have all heard it all often enough, thank you both; you are not ever going to alter one another's minds. Why can't you both just let it rest, for crying out loud!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 03:17 AM

It is asking much that I should allow malicious, vindictive and dishonest accusations against me by name to go unchallenged.

I have never instigated such exchanges, and I do undertake never to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 04:39 AM

Wise words MGM.

Keith, sticks and stones....

its not nice calling Keith a racist repeatedly, Jim. You've said what you think. He's said why he thinks your wrong.

You both think racism is a bad thing. That parameters of what constitutes racism seems to be the point at issue.

Why can't you leave it that you disagree on that point?

Its not nice seeing two old folkies going at it like this. Its almost as though, its the end of the night at the folk club, and the two oldest residents start attacking each other with broken bottles.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 04:40 AM

I've been in clubs like that. there's a certain inevitability as the tables go over, that can be disturbing....

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 04:50 AM

It does however seem to me that the consistency with which Keith draws attention to things that might be thought to be to the discredit of immigrants, non-white people, and non-christian people does resemble the adherence to an agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 05:01 AM

?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 05:26 AM

I have checked Richard.
I have never instigated any such.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 05:46 AM

Seems to me, Richard, that the determination of you and some others to identify racism or prejudice, on the flimsiest of instinctual feeling and where no such has been expressed, is far more 'agenda-driven' than anything that 'seems' to you might 'resemble'.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 06:13 AM

I admit I hate racists. Why do you defend them?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 07:38 AM

I hate them too. I do not defend them.

Identifying them, however, seems to me to be the problem to which you and Jim are subject. Any sort of criticism, in any context, of any member of any other ethnicity [with the exception for some reason of Irish Roman Catholics], brings into operation some sort of built-in instamatic electronic racism-spotter, to which your knees respond by jerking without any sort of intervening cranial activity supervening.

The fact is that there is a certain, small but prominent, number of young men of a particular ethnicity who are over-represented, as admitted by leading members of their own community as well as by anybody else, in the highly organised abuse of young women in certain areas. A fear of inducing the above-mentioned reactions in bien-pensants but misguided persons like you & Jim [see para 1] has resulted in the failure of the protection of the Law having been activated to assist these unfortunate young women, and in the young men named having been enabled to avoid the consequences of their activities.

It is the likes of you & Jim, and no-one else, who are to blame for this unfortunate situation. I hope you are proud of yourselves.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 08:26 AM

No Michael - some here repeatedly post posts to denigrate immigrants, non-white people, and non-christian people. That is the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 08:50 AM

Name names, Richard. Include me if you like, but you will be wrong.

Otherwise withdraw that allegation.

I stick to my accusation that it is those who follow your instinctual thought & behaviour patterns who are responsible for the lamentable inactivity of S Yorkshire police and other agencies in preventing that organised and disgraceful abuse of many helpless young women who looked to them for protection, as described in detail in the recent official report. May I have an better answer to this direct accusation than "No Michael", please?

That is the point.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 11:04 AM

"No I have not."
Yes you have. - " I DO NOW " BELIEVE THAT ALL MALE PAKISTANI MUSLIMS HAVE A CULTURALLY IMPLANTED TENDENCY"
"That suggestion was made by eminent anti-racist people,"
No it wasn't - you have consistently failed to produce one single quoted example of anybody making such a statement, which means yu have lied and you haven't the bottle to stand up for your own convictions.
Most of what Mike says I find somewhat pompous and hypocritical (would love to see another version of his "clumsy form of words), but I certainly agree with him on one thing - these circular arguments are pompous - you have put your racist agenda up for all too see and despite lying attempts to blame somebody else (as if anybody else saying the same thing made the slightest difference to your being a racist) you are what you appear to be
I'll leave it there until the next round of your racist crusade.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 11:26 AM

Yes, we have all got that point, Jim. Did you know you had mentioned it once or twice [or 50 times] before?

Now what have you [or Richard] to say about my point that it is constantly reiterated reactions & opinions like yours which have resulted in the recent finding of a commission of enquiry that S Yorks police disgracefully withheld the protection of the Law from many young citizens who were manifestly in need of it, because they feared the reactions and influence of people with opinions and kneejerk reactions like your inevitable ones?

I notice that you and Richard are resolutely avoiding responding to this direct challenge.

~M~

Sorry if you think I am being pompous. One way to counteract or obviate my pomposity might be an honest reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 11:28 AM

And I would add that SFAICS any hypocrisy in the matter lies with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 12:08 PM

"Yes, we have all got that point, Jim. Did you know you had mentioned it once or twice [or 50 times] before?"
Yes Mike; I've mentioned it each time Keith indulges in one of his racist rants because I think it necessary to understand where he's coming from.
Obviously of no interest to you - birds of a feather no doubt.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 12:16 PM

It was of great interest to me first dozen times, Jim; tho I only agreed up to a point: I could see what might have given you the impression, tho I didn't share it --

for reasons partly subsumed under --

Now, how about the rest of my last post, eh?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 01:08 PM

I agree with your straight and to the point posts Michael.

That is exactly the point I have been trying to get across for years, the destructive power of "liberal" ideology.

Soon we will have Fascism.....and it will be blamed on the conservatives. The enemy of freedom is now the soft, wooly, media influenced centre,

Richard, Jim and their ilk are the "silencers", they are fond of saying "when good men say nothing".....yet hate to see their own ideology criticised.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 01:25 PM

Couldn't agree less Ake. The enemy of freedom is illiberalism and racism.

Whether practised by The BNP lot, Asians who think our supposedly secular values make us culturally inferior and deserving of rape and suicide bombs, or gypsies who think its okay to rip off people door knocking. I say supposedly -because I see more spirituality in the setting up of the NHS, than the The Bible, The Bhagavad Gita, and the Koran combned.

Freedom is not a soft wooly alternative, easily trumped by some bugger like Mussolini or Thatcher making the trains run on time. On the contrary it requires vigilance and has been only won by the blood of our sacred dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 01:40 PM

"It was of great interest to me first dozen times, Jim; tho I only agreed up to a point:"
Surely the fact that if someone uses this forum again and again to press home a racist message, such a definitive racist statement is an important factor to be taken into consideration when judging his arguments - just as, if he is right about Pakistanis, then it is important to know that they are male, Pakistani and Muslim before we give them our trust near underage girls.
Keith is a self-appointed guardian of the white, Anglo-Saxon race and has set himself up on this forum as a scourge to all foreigners - go and look at his record.
"S Yorks police disgracefully withheld the protection of the Law from many young citizens who were manifestly in need of it"
If this is true it is appalling - it means we have a police force in Britain which will allow itself to be manipulated by political pressure groups - if I believed it to be true I wouldn't sleep a wink at night.
This is a body with the power of arrest, stop and search, which is trusted above the word of the rest of us, can enter our homes and which has been found in the past to tamper with evidence in order to make their case, and in some cases can carry weapons and has been known to against innocent until proven guilty ordinary citizens.
Should we 'ordinary' people complain of their behaviour our complaints will be dealt with by other policemen - jeez - it isn't safe to to walk the streets nowadays.
Luckily we know that the British police force has a history of being "institutionally racist" following the Lawrence murder investigations, so we can all sleep easily in our beds.
I didn't respond for fear I might be accused of 'bobby-bashing' but you're making a pretty good job of it on your own.
"I agree with your straight and to the point posts Michael."
There - a matched pair - a homophobic ant-immigrationist and a self-declared racist - if you can win over Terrytoon you have three of a kind - I fold.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 01:46 PM

But Al -- Ake's and my point is that it is unwarranted fear of kneejerk accusations of 'illiberalism & racism' from Wotsit & Youknowwho which leads to the second group of abusers you list

Asians who think our supposedly secular values make us culturally inferior and deserving of rape and suicide bombs

being enabled to operate with impunity and its victims be unprotected.

Isn't it?

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 01:52 PM

Jim, everything you have said about me in your last few points is lies.
I have pursued no such agenda.
You can give no example.

Culture leaves an impression on all who grow up and live within it Jim.
If not, say what proportion.
All those people and more were adamant that the behaviour was due to culture.
I wouldn't know about their culture, but see no reason to disbelieve them.
What is your reason Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 03:00 PM

So you're back claiming that All male Pakistanis are implanted with a tendency towards having sex with underage girls
Game set and match I think
If there still a lingering fear about our bobbies being afraid to do their duty...
It should be remembered that it was the Yorkshire police who sold their services to Maggie at the time of the miners' strike - only the best for our boys in blue!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 03:18 PM

Not my claim Jim.
How would I know anything about that culture?
The claim that culture was to blame came from people in a position to know.
What proportion of a group are effected in any way by their culture Jim?
Please answer this time.
Also tell us why we should not believe all those eminent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 03:42 PM

The impression of posts from you, Myer, and you Acheson and you Ake is that they are are calculated to convey the view that there is a tendency for immigrants, non-white people, and non-christian people to be less meritorious than English white Xtians. I use the word "calculated" in the legal sense, since while I suspect your motives without a Vulcan mind probe I cannot be certain of them. That is racist.

It is nothing to do with particular acts of particular Muslims. The particular Muslims may have done wrong - but the repetitive nature of your attentions to Muslim wrongs is calculated to denigrate Muslims.

As such, you are racists.

My argument is that the white and the wong of individual instances is not the point. It does not matter for evaluating you whether you can correctly identify some Muslims who have done wrong. What matters is that you identify no-one else.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 03:53 PM

The impression of posts from you,
Only your impression born of prejudice Richard.
A normal, balanced person would get no such impression.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 05:07 PM

'and non-christian people to be less meritorious than English white Xtians'.
.,,.
Tho a baptised & confirmed member of the Anglican Communion since age 44, long since reverted to my default position of complete atheism, I am by birth a Jew, as I believe you know tho might have forgotten, Mr Bridge. So I am unsure where I fit into your own particular brand of kneejerk prejudice.

Should appreciate the courtesy of a 'Mr', if you would be so good, if for some reason* you choose to address me by my surname; tho you may, as appears at all events to be the normal practice on Mudcat, address me as Michael if so inclined.

~M~
*hostility? shyness? over-familiarity? some sort of embarrassment? demonstration that you have at last learnt the correct spelling?

No matter...

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 05:46 PM

Richard...I think you also know that I am an atheist....and far to the left of you politically.....I have no truck with racism, or hatred of people with other views....I have also learned right from wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 06:24 PM

So, defensivists, why do you repeatedly denigrate immigrants, non-white people, and non-christian people?


Ake, you seem to have some sort of erratic libertarian, not classic left-right position. You do repeatedly denigrate travellers Romanies and Muslims.

Acheson - nonsense, you repeatedly attack for example Muslims.

Myer - you deserve none of the requested respect and you also repeatedly defend the above attack dogs. Lie down with dogs and you get fleas. Respect requires to be earned.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 11:53 PM

I didn't say respect; I requested courtesy. If you feel this requires to be earned, Mr Bridge, then you most lamentably lack it. Mannerless vulgarian!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 12:32 AM

Some place themselves beyond normal courtesy.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 01:10 AM

Sir,

Perhaps so. But SFAICS my sole offence to you has been to agree with one or two people with whom you differ politically, Mr Bridge.

Mannerless vulgarian I repeat. Plus drivelling idiot into the bargain ~~

I remain, Sir.
Your humble and obedient servant ···

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 01:27 AM

Acheson - nonsense, you repeatedly attack for example Muslims.

You are indeed deranged.
I am Christian but have NEVER attacked another faith.

In the 2010 thread,
I did not start it.
I did not join it for days.
I joined to defend the victims who someone had blamed, and to point out they were not all white.
I found myself arguing with fools who said there was no issue.
Whenever the issue of religion arose, I stated emphatically that it was not a Muslim issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 04:50 AM

I think Jim and Richard are decent honourable men - they don't to see racism and predjudice triumph..

But surely you can both see. The fears and problems we are talking about are not groundless.

After being ripped off by a group of Irish gypsies who said thay would cut down some trees that I was too ill to even try and cope with - my wife won't accept thepresence of people knocking on the door trying to drum up trade.Another gang victimised an old man, the father of my roadie, and were escorting him to the cash machine to take his money off him.

And just look at your TV screens about this latest case in Yorkshire - the details are scary.

These criminals were definitely aided in their enterprises by an attitude of heartless racism from THEIR side. No one could do this stuff to people unless they regarded them as subhuman -unworthy of respect.

When you call people racist, and you really mean it. You see it hurts. And you two, do this repeatedly with Keith.


MiKe you - should know better than thinking up loquacious insults. It doesn't make the srguments any clearer. Six out of ten.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 04:52 AM

"Not my claim Jim."
You stupid, stupid, stupid little man - of course it is your claim - you said it was your belief. It does not matter one iota whether anybody else shares that belief or even thought of it first - you put it up as your belief (and one you have just indicated that you still hold). Your Dalek-like repetition of a claim of non-existent "experts" having told you to say it (as with your moronic repetition of 'no Traveller' signs not existing because "we would have seen them") are signs of mental deterioration rather than proof, as far as I'm concerned.
It is a horrific statement that affects the male gender of a population of one million people - a suggestion that could easily have come out of the Nazi race laboratories.
The fact that you totally fail to offer one single example of any "prominent person" saying anything remotely similar makes it your invention, but that is beside the point - you have said that this is what you believe
It seems to have been established that pedophiles in Britain not only come overwhelming from the indigenous, white Anglo-Saxons section of our population, but the practice is largely carried out by family members, often close ones.
Does that mean that the rest of us have been culturally implanted with a tendency towards incestuous pedophilia?
Many religious and cultural groups have a poor record on their treatment of women, our own included. The attitude towards women by western churches is legendary and is seldom out of our press in Britain.
The Catholic church is reeling from the fact that their clergy have been raping children for decades, probably for as much as a century with the full collusion-by-silence of the hierarchy - due to a "cultural implant" maybe?
The most popular newspaper in Britain was launched on an open 'tits and bums' ticket ie, presenting women as 'available' - a cultural trait, do you think?
Rape in marriage did not become a crime in Britain until 1991 - how has that affected us culturally d'you think.
Due to the fact that a rape victim will almost certainly be treated as consenting by any defence in any court she ventures into, most rapes go unreported and unprosecuted - how does that reflect on the treatment of women in our culture?
In the 70s and 80s I worked as a maintenance electrician in London pubs
The lunchtime break periods were no-go times in many as they used that time to present strip shows to entertain the resting working population, once again presenting women as 'available'. Many of these women looked as if they could easily have been local schoolchildren who had nipped off during their dinner hour in order to make a quick few quid.
During this period I was working in a pub (not far from my home) which was sited opposite a large police station. In the afternoons after closing time some of the local bobbies and station staff made use of the top room where they would show some of the films that had been seized on porno raids.
All these are reflections of 'British culture' - have we all been implanted with such behaviour?
Before making mindless and extremely harmful attacks on the culture of others perhaps we might take a closer look at our own.
Jim Carroll
BTW - Mike - you seem to have gone silent on the behaviour of the Yorkshire police in failing to take action on sex abuse reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 05:04 AM

Al
"The fears and problems we are talking about are not groundless."
I was once beaten up by four drunk Chelsea supporters who nearly rammed aour car -
What do you suggest - that I buy an Uzi and wait for the crowds to comeout of Stamford Bridge?
On the other hand, I worked, for a time constantly with "Irish gypsies" from 1973 to 2005 without ever being (or even feeling) threatened, nevver having been robbed and certainly never assaulted.
Blaming the behaviour of a (miniscule it would appear) group of criminals on a whole community, or in Keith's case, a whole culture is mindless and thuggish racism - show us where it isn't.
If taken seriously, Keith's suggestions would affect an entire community of a million people - please don't plead sympathy for somebody who time after time has used this forum to spout a racist philosophy
Don't get sucked in to this vicious mindset.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 05:32 AM

BTW - Mike - you seem to have gone silent on the behaviour of the Yorkshire police in failing to take action on sex abuse reports. J Carroll
.,,.
I've said my say on the matter Jim, & challenged you for a response which has not been forthcoming [or if it has it was lost in your acres of verbiage]. What do you want me to do, say it all again? why?
.,,.
Al ~ Have no idea whatever what your last remark addressed to me was supposed to mean or refer to. You receive 0* for clarity.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 05:52 AM

"Now what have you [or Richard] to say about my point that it is constantly reiterated reactions & opinions like yours which have resulted in the recent finding of a commission of enquiry that S Yorks police disgracefully withheld the protection of the Law from many young citizens who were manifestly in need of it, because they feared the reactions and influence of people with opinions and kneejerk reactions like your inevitable ones?"
This is your last post Mike - fully answered in my verbiage (perhaps you should seek help for your dyslexia
I made it clear that the inaction of the Yorkshire police were entirely their own responsibility and the idea that they should be negligent of their duty due to our expressing our opinions on race is crass, even by yours and Keith's standards
You really didn't take a long enough spoon to that particular dinner party
Jim Carroll
I really do understand why you have "said all you have to say on the behaviour of our British Bobbies - it goes with the politics of those that support an ex PM who hobnobbed with mass murderers

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 05:56 AM

You stupid, stupid, stupid little man - of course it is your claim

Not tall, but not stupid either.
I could not make a claim about BP culture.
I have no knowledge.
Obviously I believed all those eminent people who were close to or within that community.
Their claim, their opinion not mine.

I only mentioned it because Don asked for my belief.
I said I believed those people.
Why would I not?
Why don't you?
The "clumsy words" were from Don's question. That is why they were in quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 05:59 AM

somebody who time after time has used this forum to spout a racist philosophy

Malicious, vindictive lie Jim.
I have never made a racist post ever, nor even a comment.
Why would I?
I am no racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 06:10 AM

This is your last post Mike - fully answered in my verbiage --
,..,
Jim: If you could bear to be so good as to copy and paste your precise answer to this point, stripped of its surrounding verbiage, I will endeavour to respond to it.

~M~

The remark about dyslexia was more what I would have expected from the egregiously unpleasant Mr Bridge than from you. I wonder sometimes what satisfaction he gets from being so consistently nasty; but generally look for better of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 06:31 AM

'Mannerless vulgarian I repeat. Plus drivelling idiot into the bargain ~~'

is what I mean!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 06:43 AM

the idea that they should be negligent of their duty due to our expressing our opinions on race is crass,

This is from the very Left Wing "Labour Uncut"

Now remember that no one had been prosecuted but enough was clearly known and there were enough concerns for a report to be commissioned into what had been going on, in fact still was going on. They helpfully noted that the crimes (presumably they meant alleged) had:

"cultural characteristics . . . which are locally sensitive in terms of diversity."

And for the avoidance of doubt as to where priorities lay:

"There are sensitivities of ethnicity with potential to endanger the harmony of community relationships. Great care will be taken in drafting . . . this report to ensure that its findings embrace Rotherham's qualities of diversity. It is imperative that suggestions of a wider cultural phenomenon are avoided."

So scores of girls aged 12 – 16 from a small geographical area are groomed, gang raped and then intimidated into silence by a small group of men of Pakistani origin and:

"It is imperative that suggestions of a wider cultural phenomenon are avoided."

What bloody planet are these people on? No one is suggesting that all Pakistani men are rapists for god's sake. There is nothing genetic or cultural about criminality

But a sick and distorted sense of political and cultural sensitivity allowed criminals to go unprosecuted and worse the horror to continue for years for young girls in Rotherham.
http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2012/09/27/the-rotherham-grooming-case-shows-the-dangers-of-confusing-criminality-with-culture/

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 06:57 AM

Oh, is that all, Al? I shouldn't call 4 words loquacious, myself. And in relation to the sort of obloquy usual on Mudcat, I should call it mild in the extreme.

Still, "wild and whirling words ... I'm sorry they offend you, heartily. Yes, faith, heartily." Hamlet

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 07:37 AM

Thank heavens Elgar wrote Rule britannia to unite all us Britons whatever out opinion differences!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 07:42 AM

"Jim: If you could bear to be so good as to copy and paste your precise answer"
Can't be arsed Mike, I'm sure you understand fully what I have written but would rather avoid it
Incidentally, far from being concerned what Jim Carroll and Richard Bridge might of accuse them of, today's Times carries an account of a Yorkshire bobby taking a complaint from a victim "yawning loudly" and asking her why, if she objected so much to what had been done to her, did she go back for more – and attitude of indifference and a total lack of understanding.
"Don I DO NOW " BELIEVE THAT ALL MALE PAKISTANI MUSLIMS HAVE A CULTURALLY IMPLANTED TENDENCY" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb"
Did you write this – if not, who did?
Is it a racist statement – if not, why not?
Please don't claim that the only reason you wrote it because experts put you up to it – it makes you appear even more of a moron.
Incidentally – your link is dated 27.9.12;    I hope you are not claiming the author as one of your "expert witnesses" – or d you have a crystal ball.
AND NOT A SINGLE MENTION OF "ALL MALE PAKISTANIS" OR CULTURAL IMPLANTS
I put up a number of examples of British attitudes towars women – you didn't respond and I don't suppose you will, but don't blame mefor trying.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 07:49 AM

What link Jim?

It is not a racist statement.
How can it be racist to say you believe what staunch, lifelong anti-racist people have said?
You are just being demented about nothing.

I am not a racist.
I am Church of England!
My missus is a Methodist.
We just don't do racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 07:58 AM

THAT link was about why Police did not act.
I quoted the bit of your post it was relevant to.
It was not about the ancient history.
I had hoped to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 08:55 AM

"It is not a racist statement."
It is a profoundly racist statement that implicates every male Paistani as a suspect to a crime against young women
"How can it be racist to say you believe what staunch, lifelong anti-racist people have said?"
Not one single anti-racist individual has ever made such a statement as yo have fully demonstrated by failing to produce one single quote
"I am Church of England!"
WHAT!!!!
The C of E doesn't have racists - it appears to have at least one moron
"I had hoped to move on."
I'm damn sure you did
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 09:14 AM

You can be "damn sure" I was not the only one wishing you could move on Jim.

Those knowledgeable people all ascribed the behaviour to aspects of culture.
Do you deny that Jim?
Is that racist Jim?

Culture effects everyone.
Agree?
If not what proportion?
Is that racist Jim?

I have no opinion and make no claims.
I was asked what I believe.
I believe the weather forecast too, but it is not my opinion or claim.
The forecasters have the knowledge.
I do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 09:16 AM

And NO.
The Church of England does not have racists.
(Morons maybe.)

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 06:30 PM

Couldn't we do without the rants, Jim? They don't help to get the message across.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 02:44 AM

Takes two to tango Mac
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 03:52 AM

Does Jim have a message?
All I see is abuse.
Likewise Richard, who chose to restart discussion of the Northern child trafficking gangs (now found in Oxford too.)

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 05:47 AM

Round and round and round and round we go.......wheeeeeeeeee.......puke!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 10:18 AM

"Takes two to tango

Precisely. But it only takes one to rant.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 10:19 AM

Jim, you have put scores of questions to me.
I have just one for you.

You post endlessly about the explanation for the over-representation of BPs in this specific crime, but you have always denied that there actually is an over-representation to explain.
Do you still?

For myself, I am not remotely interested in explanations.
It smacks of an excuse.
From published sources, I believe there is a large over-representation of British Pakistanis, an under-representation of the majority population, and a zero representation of Indian Muslims and of Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists from anywhere.
All those latter groups dislike the perpetrators being described as "Asians" or as "Muslims."

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 11:04 AM

"Jim, you have put scores of questions to me."
And you have failed to answer most of them and you have repeatedly ignored requests to do so.
"Do you still?"
I have always believed that evidence is necessary before any conclusion can be reached on such an important and potentially damaging subject. Given the total lack of research into these crimes and the minute number of people involved in them, an astounding accusation such as yours would have devastating consequences to any community accused of such deformities as you have suggested were it to be taken seriously (if you are going to claim that others have made these accusations on the scale you have please include quotes of them doing so). How can you possibly claim "a large over-representation of British Pakistanis" WHEN THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM HAVE NOT BEEN INVOLVED IN THESE CRIMES AND HAVE NOT BEEN ACCUSED OF BEING SO
If it is a cultural trait, why are we not reading reports of these criminals from in every single Pakistani community all over the country?
Why are Pakistanis recognised as being peaceful, law abiding people and their children found to be the highest achievers in our education system - they must have some horrendous psychological hangups if the can be these things at the same time as suppressing cultural urges that make them want to go out and find underage women to have sex with - a cultural volcano waiting to go off.
Your obscene suggestion tars every single husband, father, grandfather, son, nephew...... with the suspicion of being a potential threat to underage girls (despite the insistence of all the people you have mentioned that it is dangerous to draw any racial or cultural conclusions from the pitiful handful of cases.
I put up at some length other possible causes - you did not even grace those suggestions with acknowledgement.
If the Pakistani community is so profoundly damaged by its culture, why are we Brits not equally damaged by the flaws of our own culture, as I outlined above - or are we all culturally implanted misogynists suppressing our urges, as you have described Pakistani Muslims to be?
I find your "my opinion" and unspeakably evil smear on a comparatively harmless people - cowardly too.
I hope McGrath is reading this - it answers your somewhat superficial response - perhaps some of us take racism a little more seriously than others.
"I am not remotely interested in explanations."
But you have given one - that "all male Pakistanis..." and you have finally more or less admitted it, but claimed it not to be racist.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 11:14 AM

I was asked what I believe.
I doubt all those people were wrong, but if they were I do not care.
There is no excuse, so what value an explanation for such wicked cruelty.

Do you still deny there is an over-representation Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 12:51 PM

"I was asked what I believe."
Yes you were - and your reply brands you a racist
"I doubt all those people were wrong"
What people and what exactly did they say? While you continue to fail to substantiate your claim you continue to appear a liar - give us a statement branding "all male Pakistanis potential procurers of underage girls and you will have proved me wrong on that issue (but that still makes no difference to the fact that the views you have put forward as your own are deeply racist and could have come straight out of the Nazi race laboratories) and are all your own work.
I would remind you of your behaviour when making the claim you did on that revolting thread (and still are making). You carefully edited out Jack Straw's comments on "testosterone driven young men" thus removing his conclusion that they were no different to young men of any other race or culture.
"Do you still deny there is an over-representation"
Another candidate for the dyslexia clinic.
I've just written that I believe there to be nothing like enough evidence for such a claim, based on the fact that we are talking of a minuscule number of cases that have come to light and the even smaller numbers of communities involved.
I suggest you re-read the warning that accompanied the (eagerly awaited by you and the BNP) damp sqib of a survey that was carried out some 18 months ago that pointed out that the limitations of the work carried out totally precluded any hard and fast conclusions being drawn - if you don't believe me, believe them
I assume we are not going to get a response to my question regarding the pressures of English culture on we Brits - so here's another one for you to continue to ignore.
It has been admitted by all concerned that pedophilia is largely an indigenous activity committed overwhelmingly by white Anglo Saxons, often by close family members - does this make us a nation of culturally driven incestuous perverts or what?
Now - ignore away to your heart's content.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 02:22 PM

I will ignore nothing Jim.
I always acknowledged that most sex offenders are white British.

Straw was quite clear that this crime was a particular issue for the BP community.
I quoted all of his statements, but not all every time.

The people were the 5 previously mentioned.
Those knowledgeable people all ascribed the behaviour to aspects of culture.
Do you deny that Jim?
Is that racist Jim?

Culture effects everyone.
Agree?
If not what proportion?
Is that racist Jim?

I have no opinion, make no claims, and do not care why they do it.
I was asked what I believe, and I gave an honest answer.
I believe the weather forecast too, but it is not my opinion or claim.
The forecasters have the knowledge.
I do not.

Now, do you still deny the over-representation Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 02:33 PM

"Culture effects everyone."
CULTURE TAKEN ON ITS OWN IS MISLEADING -
Many of these criminals were born in Britain - read the reports.
They are no traditional Muslims, they are BRITISH PAKISTANIS - certainly not fundamentalist Muslims - they do not pray; they drink alcohol.
They have kicked over the traces of their culture and religion.
"Now, do you still deny the over-representation Jim?"
THERE IS NO PROVEN OVER REPRESENTATION and there never can be until a nationwide and in depth survey is carried out - all your "experts" have made exactly the same point - claiming an over-representation of the British Pakistani population (or even those where these crimes have been discovered IS A MALICIOUS INVENTION ON YOUR PART (

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 02:34 PM

He (Jack Straw) said: "There is a specific problem which involves Pakistani heritage men ... who target vulnerable young white girls.

"We need to get the Pakistani community to think much more clearly about why this is going on and to be more open about the problems that are leading to a number of Pakistani heritage men thinking it is OK to target white girls in this way.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9570189/Jack-Straw-Pakistani-community-must-face-up-to-grooming-scandal-following-Rochdale-case.html

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 02:39 PM

It is nothing to do with the Muslim religion.
All those 5 people linked the offending to the British Pakistani culture.
Again, I care nothing for explaining why they do it.
The over-representation is well established, not my invention.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 03:09 PM

"The over-representation is well established, not my invention."
YES IT IS - JUST AS YOU DELIBERATELY REMOVED JACK STRAW'S 'TESTOSTERONE' REFERENCE YOU ARE NOW DELIBERATELY IGNORING THE POINT HE WAS MAKING.
THERE IS NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO MAKE A LINK BETWEEN THE BEHAVIOR OF A MINUTE HANDFUL OF CRIMINALS AND THE BRITISH PAKISTANI CULTURE - THE FACT THAT YOU CONTINUE TO CLAIM THAT THERE IS WITHOUT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE IS MORE THAT ENOUGH REASON TO BELIEVE YOU RT BE A RAVING RACIST
PRODUCE YOUR PROOF, PRODUCE YOUR CULTURAL IMPLANTS STATEMENTS, GIVE ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE THAT ANYBODY HAD CLAIMS "ALL MALE PAKISTANIS..."
Even the survey of these crimes carried out the year before last admitted that what little evidence they had managed to gather was deeply suspect and could in no way link these crimes with either ace or culture
You have even ignored that.
Now go and play with your imaginary friends - you have had your answers and have given none in return - go and hold a rally somewhere.
McGrath
I do hope you are prepared to take back your 'rant' accusation The constant repetition of the same question which has been answered each time is surely a sad case of all the lights on but nobody at home.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 03:33 PM

Capital letters count as shouting. Capital letters in red without punctuation amount to bellowing. "Ranting" seems a very fair term to apply. It diesn't help get the point across, it drowns it.

The constant repetition of the same question which has been answered each time That seems to go both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 03:44 PM

Jim this is crazy. You keep saying he's a racist. If he was a racist = what would he be doing here?

He'd be with his BNP mates. It obviously matters to him that no one thinks he's a racist - or he wouldn't be arguing. As for what he's wrote - well who hasn't said politically incorrect things and wrote them, and sung about them!

I dunno why Keith pisses so many people off. he used to piss off Divis Sweeney and Ard. I don't think he can mean to - otherwise he wouldn't keep protesting like this.

perhaps he just needs to wind his neck in a bit stop saying stuff that he knows will be controversial.

You reckon we're deeply racist in England. i suppose its true -the recent crop of 'grooming' cases involving Asians has been worrying. And it wouldn't surprise you, any more than it would about all the cases involving RC priests, if you had any contact with the religious bullshit ideas about sexuality the poor sods grow up with.

Its also true that no estate agents boast about the proximiy of a traveller encampment to their properties and the wonderful opportunities for cultural enrichment thus offered.

And keith knows damn well that you care about these subjects. Do you want him to walk on eggshells around you? Bit of a red rag to a bull to you.

I've PM-ed hm in the past and said why can't you just accept Jim has sore points, and leave it at that. And he says why should I agree to be insulted?

I don't know what the answer to all these questions are. Is it that you both enjoy these slanging matches?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 05:21 PM

Alan - you have seen exactly what he said
You have seen his persistence in claiming - without proof - that a whole community is culturally tainted
You have seen his constant evasion in refusing to back up his 'expert witnesses' with the quotes he claims they have made that back up his sick theories.
Why shouldn't he be here - what better to peddle his sick theories than an open forum where he can say anything he wishes without fear of retribution.
At the time of the Dale Farm eviction several of us had our facebooks hacked into by a BNP shit who altered our personal profiles - not Keith I hasten to add - we know who did it - a regular contributor to this forum.
He brands a whole ethnic group as poterntial culturally influenced perverts.
I can't remember if you were around at the time, but I suggest you seek out the 'Muslim Persecution' thread - counting his postings should be evidence enough.
He claims to have the interests of the underage young women at heart but in truth, he is as much a persecutor of innocent people as are those animals who prey on them - in his case innocent men women and children who happen to be of the same religion and nationality as the criminals.
I have no time for these shits but I will not remain silent while people like Keith uses their crimes to persecute and smear a whole community - in his case, from the comfort of his home and the safety of his anonymity.
Would you care to justify his arguments?
I find these 'slanging matches' an embarrasment and an interference to the reason for my being a membert of this forum - my love of folk music.
Keith and I are on opposite sides of the fence as far as these topics are concerned (I'm pleased to say) and his habit of propriortorily taking over these topics. squeezing the last drop of blood out of them, and his insistence of having the last word on all of them (go and check) means that we'll almost certanly clash again.
Can I clear up my attitude towards racism in England.
I do not believe everybody in Britain to be a racist, but I do believe there is enough to be of concern - not in fanatics and active fascists, but in ordinary people who otherwise are friendly, sociable and welcoming - as I've said before, people who I would happily have a drink with as long as the topic of race or immigration does not come up.
I experienced this most days of my working life, especially in London, and through my activities with one of the most persecuted ethnic groups in Britain. I also know it to be the case from my reading - I produced enough examples on previous threads - all of which were ignored.
McGrath
I pointed out that the constant repetion of the same question WHICH I ANSWERED EACH TIME

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 05:34 PM

missed a bit:
was a little more than a dedication to an idea – disturbing or what - or maybe you'd like to suppost Keith's suggestions - I hope not?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 07:12 PM

Unlike you Jim, who thinks that England is a deeply racist country. I bloody well know it is.

My wife is very upfront about it, she says things like - I don't care for racist talk in my house. But mainly to my friends that she didn't like anyway.

One night at her arthritis group, they did a stand up comedy night. Everybody had to tell a joke. One lady, who did wonderful work on the committee, told a racist joke. And your heart sinks.

I'm afraid its there in the warp and weft of where we are now. The Daily Mail (that I buy for my sister when she comes to stay) really deeply offends with at least one, and usually more headlines whenever she stays with me. I don't understand how anyone of normal sensitivities can stand to have it in the house.

Racism is more typical of where are, than we are, who feel the way we do. and that's why people like Keith talk the way they do. they don't realise - its every responsible citizens duty to minimise the effect rather than draw attention. In the present climate - its asin of ommission. Not a black sin - as your posts hint.

I can remember also - trying to explain to a GCSE student from a family with Asian roots. His essay on abortion had to discuss both sides of the question - otherwise it was just a rant, not a balanced essay. Resembling something copied from a piece of SPUC propaganda. The student couldn't see it. As far as he could see it - there could be no alternative viewpoint.

Most muslim kids get religious knowledge lessons at the mosque, and they seem to me to get as heavy an anti-liberal shot of propaganda, as my Catholic cousins used to get.

And when the freedoms that have had to fought for are just discarded - our whole culture seen as some sort of morally corrupt and bankrupt entity. You should be disquieted.

not all Keith's fault. Theres a lot of people like him. And the signalsthey're getting, well - it ain't all good news.

Incidentally the BNP, or someone in their ranks, put me on a few websites as well - a queer lot!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 02:58 AM

You are a blessed peace maker Al, but I do not recognise myself in your post.
One problem is that the crime is so cruel, and children have died, that emotions can run away.
Cover ups and secrecy have been a gift to racist groups.
My simple view is that nothing about these people should be concealed.
"Muslims" does not describe them.
"Asians" does not describe them.
Pakistani describes most, but they are a tiny minority of that hard working and law abiding community.
It makes it worse not better to attempt to conceal or deny an obvious fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 03:32 AM

Thanks for that Al - can't see a great deal to argue with there (a few points based on different experiences maybe, but nothing serious)
I was an apprentice for a ship repair firm on the Liverpool docks where I saw Catholics and Protestant (not races I know, but the same applies) work together happily - until the shipping coming into the river for repair slackened off. Then it was like a wall had been erected between the two groups; If you were Catholic you didn't get taken on at Cammell Lairds, Protestants didn't work at Brown's. In the present economic climate race is one of the things that will be used to stop us from looking for where the blame for the present situation really lies - while we're at each others throats we're not bothering too much that the bankers are screwing us to maintain their obscene bonuses.   
I'm more interested in opposing the ideas of racism than squabbling with the people who put them forward, though I am aware that this doesn't always come over in my postings, but this is very much a two way street. I realise that the cause of Keith and I constantly nausing up so many thread lies at both our doors and I'm sure the key to our not stopping it is by our recognising that fact and consciously trying not to let it happen again by both of us taking our share of the blame - can't speak for the other team though.
Must try harder.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 04:17 AM

The problem with your position Keith is this:-

There are areas of the country where the chance of having a muslim as your neighbour is pretty remote. Plus there are people who alive (myself included) who have seen the population of this country go from less than fifty million to where we are now- they've seen the economic make up of the country change (not always to their liking) and they blame it on the immigrants. And it disinclines them to mix with the new settlers and their families.

All in all - it is a climate of ignorance.

From the other side too. People who try and bring the values of rural villages in the subcontinent to to the busy towns and cities of England. Bloody tough on their kids.

But they ain't all scroungers and perverts, and we ain't all paki-bashers.

Keep banging on about the what's seriously fucked up about the present situation is not helping anyone - least of all yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 04:58 AM

I do not bang on about it Al.
Very few of my posts are about that issue, and I never start the threads.

What has "naused up" all these threads is Jim accusing me of racism, and me refuting it.
Jim, if you would just stop accusing me, I will immediately stop refuting.
Now Jim, what is it I do that you object to?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 05:39 AM

Cop on Keith - we've both behaved abominably on this forum and the fact that you won't put your hands up and recognise it indicates that it's quite likely to happen again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 07:50 AM

Come on Keith - you won't admit to even a modest bang! A controlled explosion....?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 08:33 AM

I am accused of racism, and I refute it.
On the subject of child trafficking, I have posted very little.
My whole case on the 2011 thread was that it was foolish to deny a link with the BP community.
I only found myself repeating it because fools kept denying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 08:41 AM

Jim, I genuinely do not know what it is that I should stop doing.
Just tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 08:43 AM

'fools'.....Keith, Jim was trying to be conciliatory. The BP community is a big place. most serial killers are white Englishmen. Would you say there was a connection there with our community. I don't think so.

Can't you see why a statement like that would make a bloke like Jim angry....committed socialist, disciple of Ewan Maccoll, spent years working with a much maligned minority group...think!

Respect peoples sensitivities.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 09:57 AM

Foget it Al - I'm sure you've got the message by now.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 01:13 PM

The majority of serial killers are indeed from the majority population, as are sex offenders.
When the majority of offenders are from a minority group, you have to wonder if there is a link.

Jim, I thank you for your conciliatory promise to stop calling me a racist.
Is there anything I can stop doing in return?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 02:06 PM

All I have ever claimed is that most of these offenders are BPs.
The debate was because some folk denied that obvious truth.
Jim still does.
That does not make me abusive to him, but it has made him very abusive to me.
But that is all over now.
Thanks.
Anything I can do in return?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 03:06 PM

This has nothing to do with your racism Keith - your posting history (right up to your most recent) deals with that far more eloquently than I ever could.
I have apologised - not to you - for the fact that our arguments have destroyed more worthwhile threads than I care to remember and both of us bear responsibility and are obliged to apologise, if for no other reason than in the hope that it doesn't happen again.
So far you have avoided taking any responsibility whatever for your part - I will await with interest to see if you have the good grace to do so.
Al
I was interested in your analysis of my politics.
"committed socialist,"
Am I? Two rather nasty little post-McCarthyites gave me a grilling not so long ago, no doubt so they could substitute honest argument for "You're only saying that because you're a committed Socialist".
My arguments throughout my time on this forum have been humanitarian ones; never trailed my coat for any particular political philosophy, not on Mudcat anyway.
"disciple of Ewan Maccoll"
I always admired MacColl's dedication to workers' causes and his basic humanity, but I found his political theory a mixed bag at times.
One of the most pleasant times of my life was the month or so I lived with them while I found a home in London, much of which was spent sitting in the garden with Ewan arguing the toss about Ireland, Trotsky and the Soviet Union - when I should have been looking for a flat and a job - happy days!.
You are right about the Travellers though - quite horrific to be close to the last respectable brand of racism - still going strong after centuries, if not millenia of persecution
No offence taken you understand, one out of three right isn't too bad.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 03:15 PM

That should, of course, read
so they could substitute "You're only saying that because you're a committed Socialist". for honest argument
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 03:20 PM

definitely not a tory, I should have thought, or a lib/dem....

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 04:19 PM

"Committed Socialist" my arse!

If he was a real Socialist, he might have some understanding of the meaning of real equality and perhaps a clue about how to attain it.
There's a literary reference in Scotland which says "Ye need smeddum tae be richt coorse or richt kind"

Keith has it...Jim does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 04:36 PM

So you are still claiming I have made racist posts Jim.
That outbreak of peace did not last long did it!

I refute that I have ever made a racist post, I am no racist, and I think you should stop making these ad hominem personal attacks on me.

I will continue to be polite and courteous in my posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 04:51 PM

"So you are still claiming I have made racist posts Jim."
Read what I said Keith - there is no reason for me to repeat anything.
This is about your needing to apologise to the members of this forum
"If he was a real Socialist,"
I don't think I've met a "real Socialist" who was a blazing homophobe who wants to send all immigrants back to where they came from and would dare suggest that mass (and very sane) murderer should have been listened to as his arguments were valid - a candidate for the salt mines I would have thought
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 05:04 PM

OK Jim.
I apologize to this forum for refuting Jim's constant accusations of racism.
When the accusations stop, I promise faithfully to stop refuting them.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 08:31 PM

Perhaps you you wouldn't need to refute those accusations if you didn't start threads like the no gypsies here signs being common.

Starting the thread was only going to flush out Jim, and you must have bloody well known it, cos i certainly did. Its a bit like wearing a Birmigham City rosette and scarf at Villa Park.

Reminds me of my Aunty Rose = those protestants, they walk down our street!

I suspect if you'd lived in Liverpool at the time , you would have known which streets to walk down. And god knows we've all been pounding the pavements of Mudcatville long enough, to know that much about each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: ollaimh
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 12:40 AM

yeah imagine instutional racism in the uk? who'd a thunk.

the uk is agrueablly the most bloodthirsty militarist nation in human history, having made war in almost every corner of the globe and committed genocide in ireland against north american natives and ran the slave trade for a considerable period of time, to only name few. as i have said many times there are many fine things about uk culture and people but the society is based on racism and class bigotry all wrought by centuries of militarism. they call it the military industrial complex in the usa but i prefer just military capitalism.

the first step to real change is to recognize the truth and to stop the delusional self righteousness of the most imperialist culture in history

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 01:22 AM

Al, Jim raised the issue about the signs, saying they were common throughout Britain.
When I said I had never seen one, he said I was lying and he said it in big, red capital letters.
Was that acceptable?
Should I just roll over again?
I had no way of knowing if contributors would say they were common or not.
I could think of no other way to settle the disagreement, but whatever I do is wrong, and Jim is always the victim.
Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 02:07 AM

I've never seen one. You've never seen one. Lotsa people never seen one.

Whatever the truth, we're not exactly tripping over the buggers, are we?

For God's sake Keith. there's no discussion there, much less an argument. If Jim says he's seen lots of them, he's obviously looked in different places from us. that's quite likely as he's spent time hanging out with gypsies.

If I saw a group of caravans coming down he street, he'd probably see one outside my house.

If you engage in this nonsense much longer, you will go bonkers. none of us want that, old friend!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 02:57 AM

I've never seen one. You've never seen one. Lotsa people never seen one.

Whatever the truth, we're not exactly tripping over the buggers, are we?

When I said that I was called a liar.
Why should I let that stand?
Why is it "bonkers" ever to disagree with St.Jim, or show that he is wrong about something?

And above all, why does that make it OK for him to constantly call me nasty, abusive names?

not all Keith's fault. Theres a lot of people like him.
Like what Al?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:26 AM

Far from apologising for, or even acknowledging his part in our disputes, which have ruined thread after thread, Keith seem intent on provoking more.
I'm grateful for to you Al for attempting to mediate here - a somewhat thankless task, but I fear you are wasting your time and, should you follow this garbage up, you will find yourself equally sucked into yet another black hole - please leave it.
As it seems that Keith, far from apologising for past misdeeds, intends to continue on the course he has set himself; I suggest he is left to it.
The topic here was 'racism in the UK media' - if anybody thinks they wish to continue on that theme, I suggest they do so and not allow another thread to come crashing down in flames.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:53 AM

I did apologogise Jim.
You start accusing me, and I refute the accusations.
I am sorry that happens, but only you can stop it Jim by not starting it.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 04:00 AM

Back to the topic.
The Times last Monday.
"The Times has published several articles about a pattern of crimes across northern England and the Midlands involving groups of men, largely of Pakistani heritage, and the sexual abuse of white girls aged from 12 to 16."

Do you still deny there is an over-representation Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 05:42 AM

the absolute truth about anything is hard to determine Keith - why is your starting point what Jim thinks - an old chap - not even living in this country?

Why do you give a shit about what he thinks? He's entitled to his thoughts over there in Ireland.If you draw enough attention to yourself - he will probably give his thoughts about you.

Me personally, I don't ask his thoughts about me. I advise you not to, by not rattling his cage.

Hint; the subject of what he perceives as persecuted minorities is inclined to set him off.

But you knew that, eh...you old divil!

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 06:30 AM

It is called discussion Al, and is what the forum is for.
We debate our differing views.
You and I expect to be challenged when we post our thoughts.
Why must St. Jim never be challenged however silly his posts?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,al whittle
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:14 AM

the sanctityof Jim is not really the issue - I'm sure there are many witnesses to his miracles.

The subject under discussion is these deranged exchanges; first with Divis, now with Jim.

I don't think its a line of defence that would stand up in court - its not me, its the fireworks's fault. i just lit the blue touch paper...

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:32 AM

Divis and I had opposite views on Irish Republicanism.
We debated it endlessly.
On pm we were friends.

Whatever we are discussing, Jim always starts accusing me of racism.
Are you saying he can't help it?
Are you saying it is my fault because I disagree with him about how common a sign is?
Are you not blaming the victim?
Why do you post so little asking Jim to stop calling me a racist?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:35 AM

Divis Sweeney Re: Thanks 17 Oct 2005 04:07 PM   
   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message:
Dear Keith
Thats the problem with guests, they don't understand us ! Of course we cut hell out of eachother, but isn't why we come here. Proud to say I have never walked away from computer angry. As long as you understand me and please Keith never take offense at anything I ever say. Yes that guy this morning seems too serious for us ! Thought I had to say something.
Best wishes and look forward to your next go at me !
Seamus Sweeney

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:56 AM

"Why do you post so little asking Jim to stop calling me a racist?"
I really think I've just about had enough of this pathetic whining.
If you are not able to defend your own ideas, please stop trying to involve others.
Al hasn't done a half-bad job in trying to put a stop to this farce, with no help from you, not even a glimmer of recognition of your own role in our arguments.
This thread is not about me or you - it is about racism and the media.
If you have nothing to say on the subject, please allow others who might have to do so.
Your behaviour is becoming embarrassing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 09:15 AM

Just replying to Al.
Is that allowed Jim?
I must not "rattle your cage" or I will deserve more abuse from you.

I posted on some media racism earlier.
Did you miss it?

The Times last Monday.
"The Times has published several articles about a pattern of crimes across northern England and the Midlands involving groups of men, largely of Pakistani heritage, and the sexual abuse of white girls aged from 12 to 16."

Do you still deny there is an over-representation Jim?

The Guardian this time.
"There is a small minority of Pakistani men who believe that white girls are fair game," Warsi told the London Evening Standard after the jailing of nine men for their part in a child sexual exploitation gang. "We have to be prepared to say that. You can only start solving a problem if you acknowledge it first."

Warsi, who is Britain's first Muslim to have a full cabinet seat, spoke out after the nine men from Rochdale were jailed for a total of 77 years at Liverpool crown court last week for sexually abusing young girls. The victims, the youngest of whom was 13 when the abuse began, were passed around the group of men for sex after being plied with food, alcohol and drugs.

Vaz, the former Europe minister who is now chairman of the commons home affairs select committee, said he did not believe the crimes were a "race issue".

But Warsi, who was prompted to speak out after her father condemned the abuse as "stomach-churningly sick", took a different view in her Evening Standard interview. "This small minority who see women as second class citizens, and white women probably as third class citizens, are to be spoken out against," she said.

Still deny it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 10:23 AM

Jonathan King , and now Jimmy saville ....no word in the media about over represemtation of BBC presenters!..

No Keith I'm saying some people are prickly on certain subjects You know...Hitler on Jews, Thatcher on Unions, Scargill on Thatcher, J Edgar Hoover on Dillinger.....

The likelihood of getting a sensible argument, if you have divergent views is negligible. Therefore neglect it. Find some area , you can talk about.

Incidentally Divis e-mailed med told me he was leaving Mudcat, because you were doing his head in. I was sorry to see him go, and I would be sorry to see you go.

You do remind me a bit of me when I was a kid. I used to drive my dodgem car the other way from what all the other cars were going - so that it would crash violently. The dodgem man used to sling me off for not playing nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 10:35 AM

Divis told me a different reason, but who knows.

Are you asking me to avoid certain subjects because they might cause Jim to explode?
Does he then have a right to call me racist?
Will you not criticise him for that, as you do me for not being sensitive to his sore points?
He is a grown up.

Am I not allowed to discuss with others anything that might set Jim off again?

Jim himself brought up the traveller signs issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 11:29 AM

No - I didn't overlook your gleeful news which in no way impinges on the culture of 1,000,000 British residents, as much as you might like it to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 12:04 PM

You seen to be utterly impervious to the utter crassness of, on the one hand whining about being identified as a racist while, at the same time making racist claims on a subject on which figures simply do not exist.
You appear to be attempting to make this another of your 'Muslim prejudice' threads - please feel free - that should put to rest once and for all whether or not you are a racist
You are on your own
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 12:49 PM

I can't order you to be sensible Keith.

But, bottom line, do these seem like worthwhile and stimulating exchanges of point of view to you?

Perhaps this isn't the forum. When i saw the gypsy thread, i thought - he's calling Jim out.

You might feel like Wyatt Earp, but then again you could be Ike Clanton. The gunfight at the OK Corral was over in forty five seconds. How many years has this nonsense been going on?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:20 PM

Jim did not just disagree with me about the signs, he said I was lying.
The second thread forced him to retract the accusation (a first) and proved him wrong.
His refusal to admit being wrong made him look silly.
Why does he do it?

On the over-rep, he did not just disagree, he said it made me a racist.
Now everyone knows it is a fact and his continued denial makes him look silly again.

I am done with both.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:22 PM

Wasting your time, Al. It's Groundhog Day - always is when those two get going.
When my kids wouldn't stop the "Oh yes you did", " Oh no I didn't" crap, I used to pull their pants down and slap their bare arses. Thankfully, they managed to grow up. Shame the Usual Suspects don't seem to have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:42 PM

Here is a website with lots of recipes for delicious turnip soup.

I suggest that some of us turn our attention to trying them out.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 05:43 PM

I am a soup man, but turnip is a new dimension for me.
Thanks Kevin.
Backwoodsman, did you miss that I am happy to let it stop here?
Very happy thank you.
You could tell us if you think those signs are "common throughout Britain" or if there is any issue with BPs in the child trafficking horror, but I am done.
Thanks Al.
Thanks Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:00 PM

Okay one last time.

Just supposing you go to word, Keith. Make a document up and keep it somewhere you remember on your computer.

Then if Jim contributes to any thread that you are involved in, you cut and paste, this pre-emptive message.

'Jim, I fully accept that you think I am a racist, and as such worthy of abuse. This is something I dispute and is vehemently denied by several Mudcatters who have met me personally; my family; the members of my church, and my community.

That aside, these are some opinions I wish to express and some facts I wish to highlight and discuss on this forum.

Therefore can we take your opinion of me personally as a given, and have a debate as to what I have to say, nonetheless.'

Just an idea.....

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 01:32 AM

Keith, I think we were sting at the same time.

Both of you - the ability to agree to differ is a sign of a well-balanced, mature adult. Time to give it up and move on, don'cha fink? After all, we're none of us getting any younger, and it could all end today.

Worf finkin' abaht?

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 02:44 AM

Backwoodsman, I agree to differ with anyone, not least Jim.
(at least until everyone realises that I am right about everything!)

But, when I disagree with Jim about anything, he drags out the accusations of racism whatever the thread.

Al, why didn't I think of that?
Dear Jim trots out yet another grovelling, humbling apology but is unable to promise to stop doing it, so I will deploy your standard response at the first opportunity (later this morning?).

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 12:40 PM

Alright Keith, but if you start a thread called Down with the Nig Nogs!

You will disappoint me greatly......

cheers

al

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in the UK media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 05:04 AM

How about, Up With Noggin The Nog, a much underrated early tv animation.