Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 02:32 PM

If it's not clear on the packaging that it's a CD-R rather than a CD could this be an infringement of the Trades Descriptions Act?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 03:17 PM

I was signed to Bulmer once. We got around his shenanigans by instead of buying our records off him to sell at gigs, we sneaked in the back door of the warehouse and stole boxes of them. It worked out fine. I'm not sure he ever knew, I don't think stock taking was his thing.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 03:17 PM

I can assure y'all that you have to pay yer dues to composers whether you make a proper CD or a CD-R. Personal experience!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 03:55 PM

CDRs are not exempt from MCPS royalties if you're bulk producing them for sale. However you can produce them yourself and get away without declaring them to the MCPS because legit pressing facilities require you to show your MCPS licence. As I understand it, Bulmer owns his own pressing facility. Follow your own logic.

His print & repackaging - booklets and inlays - are cheapskate too.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: pavane
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:42 PM

The points about MCPS and CD-R have all been made in previous threads too. You can pay MCPS for a licence for a small number, and put MCPS log on the disk, but then who is to say how many you actually made, if you are doing it yourself.

I don't suppose anyone fom MCPS is going around counting them, even if they could. (Might be a problem if one of them got into the charts, though!)

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:49 PM

not really, you can chart for less than a thousand sales nowadays

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:50 PM

Spot on, pavane.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: pavane
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:55 PM

And don't forget, royalties are payable to the copyright owners of the lyrics/songs/tunes as well as the performers.

This is a REAL minefield, especially bearing in mind the well-known story of the people who went around claiming copyright of existing traditional songs. One famous example is Wild Mountain Thyme, which is clearly based on Robert Tannahill's Braes o' Balquidder from the 1790's - see below. There is nothing to stop anyone doing that even now.

It would be really difficult to find a single album of "traditional" music where all songs/tunes are public domain. So we can assume that royalties are being avoided if none are paid.

From Braes o' Balquidder:
I will twine thee a bower
By the clear siller fountain,
An' I'll cover it o'er
Wi' the flowers o' the mountain;

Will ye go, lassie, go,
To the braes o' Balquhidder?
Where the blaeberries grow,
'Mang the bonnie bloomin' heather;

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: pavane
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:57 PM

You can pay MCPS based on as few as 250 copies

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: pavane
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:59 PM

So perhaps if we all decided on one album, and went out and bought it in the same week, we could embarrass DB by getting it into the charts?

On the other hand, he wouldn't care because he would make money out of it.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 06:23 PM

Actually there are plenty of manufacturers out there who will press you up a couple of hundred Cdrs no questions asked. There again, there are places you can get glass mastered CDs pressed up no questions asked. Not that I'm advocating this, of course!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 07:09 PM

Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?

DC

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bugsy
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 07:54 PM

"Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?"

You mean, Like Bob Fox and Stu Luckley did?

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:40 AM

>Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?<

The expense, perhaps?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:54 AM

The expense, perhaps?

If the music being sat upon by CM is any good, then maybe the payback would be worth the expense.
If it's not worth the expense then perhaps that is why CM is not doing anything with it.


DC

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:11 AM

I've just re-read what I have written and it seems to imply something that I didn't intend, So, before someone gives me a verbal beating up, please let me say ………. I am not suggesting that all, or even most of the music being withheld is worthless. Obviously, someone thought it was good enough to record in the first place.

I am also aware some of the music cannot be re-recorded at this late stage as groups may have broken up, the performers' circumstances may have changed or some may no longer be alive. But for those that can ……… ?


DC

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:18 AM

>Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?<

These would of course be totally different albums. The artists are older and not all of the are still performing, or indeed still with us. And they wouldn't have Bill Leader presiding over the recording. To these ears, 70s albums on Trailer sound nothing like modern folk albums. I own quite a few Trailer releases on vinyl and there's something quite special and magical about these releases that to me has generally been lost on most modern folk albums. There's a rawness and directness and lack or artifice that would be hard to replicate.

I just wish more current folk albums sounded like Trailer releases, really...

Also call me a purist, but (for example) there's an ocean of diffrence between Mike & Lal Waterson's Bright Phoebus and the tribute album that came out a few years back. Not a value judgement, but the two things aren't the same.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:20 AM

Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?

The performing deterioration of the 35-40 years since they were first recorded? Having had, oh I don't know, something like a terrible car crash or having died of cancer. The fact that what people want is the original recordings?

There should simply be a "use it or lose it" law where ownership of recordings is concerned. If a label hasn't made something commercially available (and the law would have to be phrased to avoid getting around it by putting out a few dozen shoddy CDRs) for a long period of time and the recording has passed a certain age, the rights should revert to the artist. Let's say it's 25 years old and hasn't been available for 10, or something like that.

I was reading recently that the Transatlantic and B&C catalogues are now owned by Universal after having been aquired from Castle who went bust. Similar story. The difference is that Universal will license them for re-release but only if totally unrealistic arms and legs are paid. So whilst re-issues of Pentangle or early Steeleye might be viable, you won't be seeing anything like The Young Tradition along any time soon either.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:45 AM

…… And they wouldn't have Bill Leader presiding over the recording. To these ears, 70s albums on Trailer sound nothing like modern folk albums. I own quite a few Trailer releases on vinyl and there's something quite special and magical about these releases that to me has generally been lost on most modern folk albums. There's a rawness and directness and lack or artifice that would be hard to replicate.

Yes, I take your point.

DC

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Jenny.
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 07:55 AM

Many of the songs to which Bulmer owns copywright have been recorded on other labels, and by other artists, royalties on these songs are still paid to Bulmer, neither PRS or MCPS will give any information to a songwriter who requests information on this matter without a legal request.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: G-Force
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 08:56 AM

There should simply be a "use it or lose it" law where ownership of recordings is concerned. If a label hasn't made something commercially available (and the law would have to be phrased to avoid getting around it by putting out a few dozen shoddy CDRs) for a long period of time and the recording has passed a certain age, the rights should revert to the artist. Let's say it's 25 years old and hasn't been available for 10, or something like that.

A bit like patent law. You may have a patent for your invention, but if you don't exploit your invention, your patent can be got round.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 09:06 AM

A dusty memory: more than twenty years a then-employee of Bulmer's smuggled me into CM HQ for a sniff around. Seeing the stockroom was an eye-opener. Not only did CM have the Leader/Trailer/Dambuster/Highway etc catalogues, they also had a whole load of stuff that would later come to be called World Music - I was particularly struck by a six-disc box set entitled The Griots. Pretty rare stock, I would imagine — and presumably it's all still sitting there in Fortress Harrogate, where the sun never shines.

At the time they were reprinting various items from the Leader catalogue on cassette — Seamus Ennis for example. One would hardly expect Seamus to be a mega-seller, but there it is: they really did seem to have a plan for reissuing important but not necessarily commercial stuff. And nowadays CD-Roms are cheaper than blank cassettes were then. At what point did Satan enter the body of Dave Bulmer and consign all his good intentions to the dustbin of history? And why would any sane man want to attract the rage and contempt of virtually the entire folk scene? What is the capital of Upper Volta? etc etc etc...

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 09:08 AM

"more than twenty years ago", even...

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 01:56 PM

Bulmer has no right to the songs themselves--only to the specific recordings. And I'd submit that the suggestion of making them downloadable MP3s would result in considerably lower sound quality
than is provided in CD-Rs.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 02:02 PM

Pavane wrote 'It would be really difficult to find a single album of "traditional" music where all songs/tunes are public domain.'

Not true, the majority of albums of sean-nós singing are exactly that.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:26 PM

I'd submit that the suggestion of making them downloadable MP3s would result in considerably lower sound quality
than is provided in CD-Rs.

Perhaps, but sites like Bandcamp offer alternative high-quality formats. Besides, the objection to CD-Rs is their longevity rather than recording quality.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 04:39 PM

Just chanced on this thread today. I thought you might like to know that Rab Noakes (http://www.go2neon.com/rab-noakes.htm) made a series of programmes about Bill Leader about 15 years ago. I think it was called "Leader's Tapes". Rab might still have a copy.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:02 PM

"Let's accept that Mr Bulmer is acting entirely lawfully. He owns the assets, it's up to him what he does with them. As I understand it, he cannot yet be required to return the rights to the original artists if he doesn't want to make use of them himself.

Let us also accept that under the terms of the original contracts the original artists will receive no royalties if the albums are released. It may have been naive of them, but they signed the contracts and must live with the consequences.

The question no one seems to be able to get an answer to is, why?"

The impression I got (from that Bright Phoebus documentary) is simply financial (and petty). He believes he can't make any money out of them but isn't prepared to release them to anybody else. Perhaps because a part of him can't bear the thought that somebody else could do something - anything - with something he regards as his and his alone. I'd say that's probably it.

I think musicians should just publish and be damned though. In the case of Bulmer-owned releases, I think people should just file-share them like crazy.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 07:12 PM

Fine, matt, but don't forget that many of us who have posted ad nauseam about this down the years wish to abide by the principle that Nic and all the others should get proper recompense for any of their stuff that goes out there.

I have a shitty cassette version (it's the cassette that's shitty), about 20 years old, copied from another cassette, that was made from a knackered old vinyl copy, even older, of The Noah's Ark Trap. The recording quality is so awful yet the sublime music shines through. I want a nice version of that album sometime before I die. I wouldn't mind betting that I could find something ten times better online than what I have now within five minutes. I haven't looked and I'm not going to.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bugsy
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 12:33 AM

Whilst I understand and agree with your sentiments Steve, if you want a better version than you have, what's wrong with downloading the online version and sending a couple of bucks to Nick?

Cheers

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 04:55 AM

"Fine, matt, but don't forget that many of us who have posted ad nauseam about this down the years wish to abide by the principle that Nic and all the others should get proper recompense for any of their stuff that goes out there."

Yeah, which is why I'd be perfectly happy to see one of those album filesharing blogs (Time Has Told Me et al) hosting those albums, only with a Paypal address below.

In this day and age "proper" recompense for recordings - especially niche folk recordings - isn't exactly going to be megabucks. A "pay what you can" to a Paypal address via a music blog strikes me as the ideal illegal but morally correct way to get round the Bulmer situation.

If I were ever in the position that an album I'd made (which I thought was actually really good) was being sat on and left to rot by an evil record label, I would just put it on Bandcamp, charge for it, and see them in court.

Some friends of mine who were in a hip-hop act in the 1990s noticed that copies of an out-of-print album of theirs (on a now-defunct record label) were going for a lot of money on eBay. So they bootlegged their own album - did a re-press.

Of course, you'd have to stick to your guns, cos I imagine Dave Bulmer is enough of a c**t to try to sue you if you did it. Which is why, in this instance, the illegal and fugitive nature of filesharing could actually work in musicians' favour in this one instance.

Has anyone ever, by the way, emailed Nic Jones or any of the other artists, and asked if they'd burn them a CDR (for cash)?

I'd really like to hear, for instance, the "John & Sandra" album, which I know is on Argo and a whole different kettle of unreleased fish, was thinking about emailing Sandra Kerr and asking if she'd make me a copy...

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 12:29 PM

Rumours circulating from reputable sources that Bulmer died yesterday. Can anyone confirm?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 12:57 PM

Un-named Guest. Give us some evidence. (And a name would be nice) Or you just another troll?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 01:49 PM

It was a posting on Facebook from a musician, Martin Robertson to Tony Wilson, both from Bulmer's home town of South Shields: "Tony, heard from Ropey that Dave Bulmer passed away in hissleep (sic) last nigh. Martint".

I'd prefer not to identify myself at this stage due to contractual disputes with CM music and any potential for resolution if the above news is true. Of course, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that there's a bit if Reggie Perrin going on here.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 01:57 PM

It is true

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Reinhard
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 02:41 PM

In the fRoots forum Andy Turner cites Dick Gaughan from the UK Music Folk list:

Just heard that Dave Bulmer died on Saturday. Don't know who's taking care of his assets but I foresee much complicated litigation.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 04:44 PM

Bulmer's death confirmed

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 11:15 PM

An interesting question whether contracts are contracts of personal confidence and so brought to an end by death of an obligee.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 05:08 AM

Unfortunately if one party to a contract is not given a copy of that contract by the person responsible for having the contract drawn up, it's not possible to check what the terms were.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 05:10 AM

Addendum (I should proof-read), the person having the contract drawn up being the other party signing the contract.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM

Before people start picking over the bones can we remember that Dave Bulmer had a wife and family who should be left to grieve their loss.

Just one other thing

I believe that the contracts that people have chosen to comment on both currently and in the past were drawn up and enacted by Bill Leader.

Dave merely BOUGHT the Leader label and its assets.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 08:36 PM

Indeed, guest. But I somehow can't see his family doing too much digging around on the web at the moment for the inevitable resurrected threads about his inexplicable and allegedly disreputable behaviour. I think we can talk about him right now if we want to, bearing in mind, of course, what you say.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:29 AM

guest guest, you are wrong, Bulmer also deliberately prevented certain artists work being made available to musicbuyers., It would be hypocritical of me to say that I am sorry to hear of his death.
The only good thing Dave did was to publish a couple of tune books.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 03:34 AM

While not disagreeing in any way with criticism of Bulmer, I've always found it more than a little strange that he should be singled out while others who have behaved as badly and in some cases worse have been let off the hook.
I can think of one individual in particular who stood between us and our folk heritage for four decades and the fact that the gathering in of the material was paid for out of our taxes tends to still rub the salt in a little. The only protest I can remember regarding his behaviour was that those who raised it following his demise received a tsunami of abuse for "speaking ill of the dead"
My main concern has always been the treatment that our field singers have received at the hands of 'the folk business' - us 'folkies' have usually managed to find our way round the houses, especially nowadays in the Brave New World of copyrighting, especially of "arrangements".
The pittances paid out to fishermen, small-farmers, miners, navvies, Travellers... et al has always struck me as being insultingly inadequate - and don't get me started about companies, (including one of Britain's finest) who adopt the practice of "selling on" albums for re-issue without recompensing, or even consulting the original artist(s) - asking a traditional singer to bring his/her lawyer in to sign the contract goes totally against the grain of why I got involved in 'the people's' music in the first place.
The few experiences I have had with the BBC in relation to our older singers has always left me with a sour taste in my mouth. I assume it is still their practice to charge the same amount for the use of an item recorded during their folk 'mopping-up' campaign of the 1950s as for a Rolling Stones track.
C'mon people - Bulmer may be a shit, but there's a whole Augean stable in need of a good clean-out and the ritual abusing of one individual while ignoring the rest ain't going to get it done.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Johnny J
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 04:55 AM

I made a similar comment to that of "Guest" (Not me, by the way) elsewhere but I daresay it's inevitable that the subject of Dave's business dealings will be resurrected and discussed at some stage.
My concern was that it would probably have been more respectful to his family if a reasonable amount of time was allowed to elapse, i.e. until after the funeral, at least.

I've no personal reason to mourn him either as I hardly knew the man apart from brief encounters at music festivals where I found him friendly enough.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:40 AM

Once again I see this subject riding off into the sunset without a response to the general damage done to our access to traditional material by "the ownership factor" - sad and not a little hypocritical.
Ah well - who knows, perhaps "One day my prince will come".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:09 AM

Jim - it might have helped if you had named the individual. The only person I can think you fits at least part of your description is Peter Kennedy, but he did not stand "between us and our folk heritage for four decades" - his horrible little tapes were available and he didn't refuse to pass on information. There certainly wasn't "a tsunami of abuse for "speaking ill of the dead"" - far from it. The obituary on the BBC programme (Last Words?) was surprising honest. If you weren't referring to Peter Kennedy, then this is an example of the problems of making accusations whilst not naming the suspect.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:33 AM

EV. I suggest you check some of this threads of this board. I remember one episode in particular when Rod Stradling posted some personal comments about PK in Musical Traditions. By that I mean they were Rod's own opinions. As such neither he nor I saw any need to consult me first. Nevertheless, I as the then co-editor ended up deluged in snide postings, mostly from people who knew nothing at all about PK and his duplicity.

As I recall it, one such perpetrator ended up being accused by a third party of looking to buy the entire Kennedy archive and sell it to some insitution in the USA.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,F. McC
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:43 AM

I'm more than familiar with PK's goings-on, I wasn't aware that he had ANY defenders - interesting. Obviously I don't spend enough time on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:59 AM

I've no idea who GUEST.,F. McC is and it's a name that hasn't previously been used on Mudcat. However, since it bears a distinct resemblance to my own handle, I'd better say that it isn't me.

Perhaps GUEST.,F. McC would care to reveal himself, and explain why he chose to use this particular appelation when there are so many out there to pick from.