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Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?

Henry Krinkle 10 Aug 12 - 03:58 AM
meself 10 Aug 12 - 09:13 AM
Dave Hanson 10 Aug 12 - 10:55 AM
Amos 10 Aug 12 - 11:40 AM
Lonesome EJ 10 Aug 12 - 12:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 Aug 12 - 01:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 Aug 12 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Melani 10 Aug 12 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Lighter 10 Aug 12 - 03:24 PM
meself 10 Aug 12 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,Lighter 10 Aug 12 - 04:57 PM
meself 10 Aug 12 - 06:26 PM
Mike in Brunswick 10 Aug 12 - 10:45 PM
Henry Krinkle 10 Aug 12 - 11:41 PM
Henry Krinkle 10 Aug 12 - 11:48 PM
katlaughing 11 Aug 12 - 12:01 AM
Henry Krinkle 11 Aug 12 - 12:40 AM
Henry Krinkle 11 Aug 12 - 12:45 AM
GUEST 11 Aug 12 - 01:01 AM
Henry Krinkle 11 Aug 12 - 01:07 AM
Henry Krinkle 11 Aug 12 - 01:10 AM
Dave Hanson 11 Aug 12 - 05:53 AM
Henry Krinkle 11 Aug 12 - 05:57 AM
GUEST,Lighter 11 Aug 12 - 09:49 AM
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Subject: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 03:58 AM

Are there any songs or poems about the Massacre at Sand Creek? While our high and mighty government was freeing the poor downtrodden darkies it was also slaughtering the friendly indigenous folk. Putting the lucky ones in concentration camps. Lincoln was no better than Stalin or Hitler.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: meself
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 09:13 AM

I don't understand how you can be so flippant about the plight of African-Americans in the southern U.S. ca 1860. Such sentiment does not reflect well on you.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 10:55 AM

Buffy St Marie's Soldier Blue, whilst not directly about Sand Ceek it is about the US attitude to the indiginous people at the time.

And yeah, the African Americans still don't have the freedom the immigrants and children of immigrants have.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 11:40 AM

Lincoln was no better than Stalin or Hitler.

Oh, horseshit, Henry. Sure he was.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 12:09 PM

Nothing like overstating your case to make you look like you don't know dick about Hitler and Stalin.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 01:42 PM

"....African Americans still don't have the freedom the immigrants and children of immigrants have."

??


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 02:30 PM

The Sand Creek, or Chivington's, Massacre, drew condemnation at the time from many sources. Chivington was with a Colorado militia, Lincoln had nothing to do with it.

Kit Carson-
" Jis to think of that dog Chivington and his dirty hounds, up thar at Sand Creek. His men shot down squaws, and blew the brains out of little innocent children. You call such soldiers Christians, do ye? And Indians savages?
What does yer 'spose our Heavenly Father, who made both them and us, thinks of these things? I tell you what, I don't like a hostile red skin any more than you do. And when they are hostile, I've fought 'em hard as any man. But I never yet drew a bead on a squaw or papoose, and I despise the man who would."

Quoted in Wikipedia from Hampton Sides, "Blood and Thunder: An Epic of the American West."
I am doubtful that Carson said this in the form given above.
I don't have the book by Sides and don't know how valid the quotation is.

Carson, as well as Chivington, was a freemason, like most officers in the U. S. Army (demitted as a member to the Montezuma Lodge No. 109, Santa Fe, and was instrumental in founding Bent Lodge No. 204 in Taos).

Carson himself is especially hated by at least two groups of Indians; the Navajo, many were forcibly removed from their lands and their orchards and livestock destroyed, and the Taos Indians who, after the assassination of territorial governor Bent, lost women and children who sought safety in the mission church in the pueblo, destroyed by Carson and U.S. troops.

Little control over the militias and soldiers in the west was exercised from Washington; decisions were often made on the spot by men in local militias and army units who had fought the Indians who tried to stop the move west into their lands by settlers from the east.

To attribute the actions to Lincoln shows ignorance of the conditions under which the west existed at the end of the Civil War.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 02:39 PM

There's one by Peter LaFarge. I think it might be called "The Reverend Colonel Chivington"--that's certainly a line from the chorus, anyway--and I think it's on an album called "On the Warpath." I just did a search on it, and the album seems to be still available.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 03:24 PM

Q, the quote is originally from Brigadier General J, F. Rusling's "The Great West and Pacific Coast" (1877). Rusling had met Carson in 1866 and is paraphrasing his words and suggesting his Missouri dialect for people who had no CDs, radio, or TV.

In 1864 Carson was a Union general of New Mexico volunteers. Rusling seems to have reported Carson's actual opinion of the massacre, which he shared.

Chivington, a Methodist minister, was in charge of poorly-trained, 100-day Colorado militiamen eager to "do battle" with anybody.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: meself
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 04:13 PM

The outrage in Washington over the Sand Creek Massacre led to an official investigation, headed by the brilliant Mohawk statesman Ely Parker, who I believe was head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs at the time - however, Chivington and Parker were old Civil War buddies, and Parker white-washed the affair.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 04:57 PM

General Parker, who served on Grant's staff during the Civil War, was a Seneca, not a Mohawk.

Parker was from N.Y. and served in the East, and the Illinoisian Chivington served in New Mexico and Colorado, I don't see how they could have been "Civil War buddies."

How precisely was Parker responsible for the failure of Congress to punish Chivington?


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: meself
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 06:26 PM

Whoops! You're right, of course - over the years, the Sand Creek Massacre had become conflated with another incident, in my mind:


. . . Parker incited controversy with an 1870 show of force. A Piegan Band of Blackfeet Indians had robbed and killed white settlers and Parker sent the information on to the War Department with a request that prompt measures be taken. U.S. troops headed to Montana led by an Army Colonel and Civil War veteran named Eugene Baker.

"And about 170 men, women and children were killed, at a time when this particular town of Piegan people had tried to signal to the attacking United States forces that they were neutral, they were pro-United States, they were not enemies. But Baker continued to fire into their town and they slaughtered all of these people. It was such and atrocity that Congress investigated it. And during that investigation, because of this loyalty that had developed during the Civil War, Ely Parker sided with Colonel Baker. He said that it was the Indians' fault, they had brought it on themselves."
Robert W. Venables, Ph.D.
Senior Lecturer, American Indian Studies
Cornell University

From: here


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Mike in Brunswick
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 10:45 PM

From the Wikipedia article on the subject.

The Sand Creek massacre has been featured in several movies, including Tomahawk (1951); The Guns of Fort Petticoat (1957); Soldier Blue (1970); Little Big Man (1970); Young Guns (1988); Last of the Dogmen (1995); and Steven Spielberg's mini-series Into the West.

The massacre has also been written about in literature, such as Centennial (1974) by James Michener; From Sand Creek (1981) by Simon Ortiz; James Bradley's Flyboys: A True Story of Courage (2003); and Lauren Small's Choke Creek (2009).

Songs about Sand Creek include Iron Maiden's "Run to the Hills" and Fabrizio De André's "Fiume Sand Creek" (Sand Creek River).


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 11:41 PM

Thank you for the info.
(:-( D)=


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 11:48 PM

And the Indians are still in concentration camps. Swept under the rug. And rarely spoken of.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 12:01 AM

"Crimson Parson" by KEITH SECOLA & His Wild Band of Indians is a good one about Sand Creek. It is based on a song by Peter LaFarge according to the liner notes.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 12:40 AM

And if Lincoln cared so much about humanity, why did so much slaughter occur under his watchful gaze? He was a lawyer with a gift for gab. And the current President of the United States is an African American. When are we going to have a native American for President? Probably when pigs fly.Oooops. They already do that. In Air Force One.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 12:45 AM

And they didn't just shoot them. They cut out the women's vaginas and hung them on their saddle horns. Among other atrocities.
(:-( O)=


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 01:01 AM

desperate attempt by Santa to get this thread "into the upper kingdom "...but....


B....s....B....s....B.S.B...S...B...S...B..S..B.S.B.S.B.B.S.B.S.B.S


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 01:07 AM

Cheerio!!
(:-( P)=


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 01:10 AM

Pip pip!!!
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 05:53 AM

There is a good account of the Sand Creek atrocity in Dee Browns book' Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee '

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 05:57 AM

Thanks. I'll look for it at the library.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Songs about the Massacre at Sand Creek?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 09:49 AM

Meself, I love it when I'm right. Hehhehhehhehheh.

Thanks for the informative reply.


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