Can a pop song become traditional?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 02:51 PM

Larry,
I like your use of 'AN oral tradition' implying that there can be more than one. I agree with you. Since the advent of writing any oral tradition has gradually altered over the centuries and the alteration has become much more accelerated over the last century or so. A purely oral tradition untainted by other traditions only exists in a few isolated places in the world. For instance, though we have very little record, we do know oral tradition was interacting with the scribal tradition long before the advent of print. Ask any Beowulf scholars.

However, various degrees of oral tradition are still possible and do happen even in the western world of the 21st century. Obviously it is on a completely different scale to a century ago. The simple descriptors of the 54 definition are entered above and if you can apply some of them to a particular 'pop' song then you might have a case.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:36 AM

One last word here - for now - off to Dublin for a ballad seminar and a filmed version of my favourite novel (Sunset Song) for a few days on Wednesday
"although I don't agree with him on everything by any means"
I am delighted to hear it Brian.
These threads should be about openly discussing different and opposing ideas on folk song instead of the rather distasteful nastiness that all too often occurs when the subject comes up.
The fact that discussing what folk song is instigates such nastiness to the extent that such topics have become no-go areas on a forum dedicated to folk song is surely an indication that something is rotten in the State of Mudcat, and on the folk scene in general.
Despite the amount I have over-said here, I have much more to add and I believe others have too - I look forward to continue with discussions such as this in future - hopefully without the bile.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:52 AM

Amen to that, Jim. Have a good time.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:54 AM

Thanks Steve
Sorry again for my outburst
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:10 PM

If you want to apologise, it would be more fitting to apologise to those members you have insulted.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:11 PM

here are some examples of how Jim, hurls insults.
"Arch anti-MacCollite Reg Hall (the one who blatantly lied on Folk Britannia about MacColl and Lloyd's 'policy of setting up folk ensembles'
"John Brune was the arsehole who professed to be interested in Travellers"
John Brune of course is in no position to answer back, yet he complains if anyone criticses,. MacColl, because he canoot answer back.
That is double standards and hypocritical
Jim ...ACTION Provokes REACTION.If I had the time, I could find examples of Jim Carroll calling mudcat members Fascists and or other insults.
I dont agree with anonymous people abusing anyone, and would agree with Jim that Mudcat would be better, if anonymous guest posting and or even guest posting was not allowed

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:01 PM

Reg Hall claimed on Folk Britannia that Maccoll and Lloyd aimed to produce 'Folk Ensembles' such as those to be found in in Eastern Europe - as "proof" he produced album notes written by' American Henry Cowell researcher (the album was the magnificent IRISH JIGS REELS and HORNPIPES featuring Willie Clancy and Michael Gorman, - the liner notes are freely downloadable if you'd care to check) .
Reg's anti MacCollism is legendary. if you or anybody his statement I'll be happy yo apologise.
The story of John Brune sending fake songs of his own composition to be included in the Radio Ballad, 'The Travelling People', a few days before it was broadcast is widely known and told as an anti-MacColl story.
After an appeal by the Travelling People' team, for songs made by Travellers to be included in the program Brune claimed to have recorded them from English Travellers - had he been successful in his deception, the validity of one of the most important and groundbreaking programme on Travellers would have been totally undermined.
I never met John Brune, but I have massive respect for his work and on the occasions I met him, found him a thoroughly pleasant and sociable person - the 'Folk Ensemble' incident was not one of his better moments.
Talking about "insulting" - I have yet to see you ever apologise for your ill mannered behaviour on this forum - This recent little gem ("CheckMate and fuck off") might serve for you to practice on Dick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:04 PM

As long as everyone's having a good time . . .

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:17 PM

And neither of them have a clue regarding the wide genre of folk music. Just a clinging need to make the exclusive right for their little bit to have the term applied.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:59 PM

"I never met John Brune, but I have massive respect for his work and on the occasions I met him..."
.,,.

Eh! Wotsat? Don't want to be too captious, Jim; but you seem to me to have got just an itti-bitty confused here.

I can hear myself, 50 years ago in my teaching days, desperately and vainly enjoining my pupils always, please, to "read your work through at least once chec for mistakes". But did thy ever? Ha!

And did you here?

Ha in ♠♠♠!

Cheers
≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 04:05 PM

I have apologised to Vic Smith.
Jim, you made those two comments, you are a hypocrite, you insulted John Brune who is dead, yet when others criticise MacColl in any way you accuse then of corpse kicking, that is hypocritical.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 04:37 PM

From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 02:42 PM

John Brune was the arsehole who professed to be interested in Travellers - and did some collecting from them, but deliberately attempted to sabotage the first and most important radio programme about them,(the Radio Ballad, The Travelling People). He was partly successful as he managed to remove Sheila Stewart from the programme.
More information is to be found from Bob Pegg's article on Sheila Stewart on Living Tradition webpage and my letter published in the following edition
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 05:30 PM

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 06 Aug 07 - 04:52 PM

McGrath,
I knew a number of the people concerned, including MacColl Seeger and Parker, who were the co-producers and John Faulkner, who performed on the programme. Arch anti-MacCollite Reg Hall (the one who blatantly lied on Folk Britannia about MacColl and Lloyd's 'policy of setting up folk ensembles') was a close friend and admirer of Brune; it was he who first told me the story as an example of MacColl's gullibility - I believed him, you may believe what you like.
While there are still people around who take great delight in dancing on MacColl's grave eighteen years after his death I feel perfectly justified in setting the record straight - you may call it mud-slinging if you wish.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 05:32 PM

the above post features Jim dancing on JohnBrunes grave and doing his own bit of mudslinging , hypocrite again

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 05:47 PM

here is Jim, being hypocritical yet again, he deplores people talking about folk fascism and the folk police, then insults Bob Davenport by accusing him of folk fascism.
one thing Jim Carroll has is a lot of brass neck and outrageous cheek
"Jim Bainbridge tells this story about Bob Davenport as if it was clever or even acceptable.
"First time I heard Bob Davenport in 1964(he's well known for plain speaking) a floor singer got up and spent fully 3 minutes explaining the song he was about to sing. Bob stood up and shouted from the back- 'Sing the fucking song man, stop talking about it'"
I saw behave like this a few years ago in the Musical Traditions Club, in this case, towards a young woman singer from The Aran Islands who had taken the trouble to give a brief explanation of her Irish language songs.
That is not "plain speaking" - it is downright folk fascism."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 04:03 AM

""I never met John Brune, but I have massive respect for his work and on the occasions I met him...""
Sorry Mike - confused is right.
Sentence should have read "
"I never met John Brune, but I have met Reg Hall numerous times and cooperated with him during our contribution to 'Voice of the People' and Bobby Casey's album, 'Casey in the Cowhouse. I have a massive respect for his work and on the occasions I met him..."
Accidentally deleted some of the text before I posted it.
Dick
You appear to be deliberately setting out to sabotage this thread
You have had my explanation for my comments on John Brune. quite verifiable, and I have given the background to my criticism of Reg, as I did at the time - take them or leave them , it is of no interest to me, one way or the other, nor is anything else you have to say - our engagement is off, I'm afraid!!
You commented on other times I have lost my rag on this forum - carefully omitting to mention that they occurred on non-music threads where all involved sling invective at each other as if they are handing out Smarties - I have become extremely bored by Israeli supporters referring to me as "Antisemite" because of my attitude to Gaza, or "ignorant, gullible liar" because I don't find W.W.1 a glorious memory or "a supporter of terrorism" because I hate Islamophobia or racism.
I'm not proud of my shortness of temper on these subjects, but I do object it being used by someone who serially abuses people when he doesn't agree with them and who, not too long ago, threatened me with physical violence - "glass house - stones" springs to mind - not too long ago you were ejected from a discussion forum because of your outrageous, abusive behaviour - I genuinely hope you are not going to repeat the exercise here - for all our sakes.
I notice you have spitefully reopened the John Brune thread - suits me - it allows people to review the John Brune story in full.our tame troll and drag him out from under his bridge - now he's snapping at all of us - well done!!
I'm off to Dublin tomorrow - I was hoping to resume our (interesting, as far as I'm concerned) discussion on the topic at the weekend - perhaps not, if you've managed to send this thread crashing down in flames, as seems to be your intention.
I really do have nothing to say to you, and hopefully, nor do you to me - like the lady in the wrinkle cream ad says; "and I'd like to keep it that way for as long as possible".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 04:06 AM

Your reopening the John Brune thread seems to have misfired somewhat - perhaps you'd like to read Mike Yates' last posting there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 05:39 AM

Iam referring to your hypocrisy, about dancing on peoples graves, you just do not get it do you, you insult dead people, other members of the folk scene and other members of this forum, then wonder why you get an adverse raction.
you compare my musical abilties to someone who specialises in irish music, the comparison is irrelevant to the topic at the time., and is meant as an insult, in fact the comparison is like comparing an orange to an apple, you clearly have not seen me perform live, I use concertina mainly for song accompaniment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_yjf4nSeWc http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/5148. I am not interested in whether you like it or not, however I am pointing out to you that your attempted insult is wide of the mark, as I have done things with the English concertina, that the other player, who actually plays a completely different instrument... the anglo concertina, does not do or even try to do, although he is excellent at what he does, your comparison is just another example of silliness.
the other person you regularly insult is Keith A of Hertford calling him a fascist etc, I do not agree with some of his opinions but this childish name calling that you indulge in, is just another example of why people react to your over the top insults, AND IN MY OPINION WEAKENS YOUR CASE.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 06:00 AM

Dick
If you continue this spiteful behaviour someone will report you to the forum fairies - if you wreck this thread as you seem determined to, I'll be at the front of the queue.
Please go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 06:10 AM

"Keith A of Hertford "
Keith- by the way, is one of those who has consistently referred to me as a supporter of terrorism, and has suggested on several occasions that I am "antisemitic"
He constantly refers to people who disagree with him as "leftie Muppets" and "liars" and his attitude to "Muslim cultural implants" is beyond belief
As with John Brune, you've backed the wrong horse there, my son.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 07:28 AM

I am talking about your hypocrisy, your inability to read posts properly, and your tendency to fly off the handle and throw irrelevant insults.
Football crowds sing pop songs and alter them,according to the 1954 definition they might [arguably] be a traditional song.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 07:59 AM

This goes beyond the pale - if there is a passing forum fairy on hand can he/she please whisper the magic words in this stalkers ear and make him vanish in a puff of smoke
Much obliged
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 02:07 PM

Beyond the Palehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k_9mXpNdgU

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 07:21 AM

hasn't it gone quiet

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 09:04 AM

another is that of music that has been submitted to an evolutionary "process of oral transmission.... the fashioning and re-fashioning of the music by the community that give it its folk character."
so songs sung by fooball crowds fit that defintion, so YES.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 10:03 AM

"songs sung by fooball crowds fit that defintion, so YES"

We've discussed football chants on here more than once before, and of course they represent a modern singing tradition (though threatened these days by deafening music on the PA). I was an Old Trafford regular when songs like 'Na Na Hey Hey (Goodbye)' (Steam, 1969), 'Son of my Father' (Chicory Tip, 1972) and 'Jesus Christ Superstar' (1970), got turned into chants, joining the variety of old hits from the shows, the music halls, nursery rhymes, American folk, etc that were already going strong. Things Like 'She'll be Coming Round the Mountain', 'Polly Woll the Doodle', 'Knees Up Mother Brown', 'We Shall Not Be Moved', 'Knick Knack Paddy Whack', 'Clementine', loads more.

However, in just about every case, all that gets used is the chorus, usually with new words about the home team, opposition or referee. Has that song by Steam really "become traditional" when all that's left of it is:

"Na na na na
Na na na na
Hey Hey
Man United"

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 11:17 AM

we will never walk alone. red red robin, when the saints, i am forever blowing bubbles, do you support the wrong teams?
Valley Floyd Road,
oh mist rolling
in from the Thames
my desire is always
to be here
at Valley Floyd Road
many miles have I travelled,
many games have I seen
following Charlton
my favourite team
many hours have I spent
with the Covered End choir
singing Valley Floyd road
my only desire.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 11:27 AM

the original pop song
Mull of Kintyre, oh mist rolling in from the sea
My desire is always to be here
Oh Mull of Kintyre

Far have I traveled and much have I seen
Darkest of mountains with valleys of green
Past painted deserts the sun sets on fire
As he carries me home to the Mull of Kintyre

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 12:04 PM

"we will never walk alone. red red robin, when the saints, i am forever blowing bubbles, do you support the wrong teams?"

You mean 'You'll Never Walk Again', 'Oh When the Reds' and 'We're Forever Throwing Bottles'? That's what we sang. Much better versions.