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Can a pop song become traditional?
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 04 Dec 15 - 07:35 PM Having read the posts above and the comment from a moderator, perhaps my post saying this is an obvious question deserves better than the poster Jim Carroll calling it trolling? To then read someone saying Mr Carroll has been attacked makes one wonder why.... His insistence that his view is fact rather than his view is bad enough, but letting him abuse others isn't the "best behaviour" the moderator seems to be wanting. How he assumes someone who wishes to remain anonymous is the same person as any other anonymous person is beyond me. Prejudice? Possibly, but defending an absurd notion is more like it. It ruins a decent thread. Mr Carroll, whoever he is, should be ashamed. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Brian Peters Date: 04 Dec 15 - 01:52 PM Hear, hear! |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Vic Smith Date: 04 Dec 15 - 11:34 AM GUEST Date: 04 Dec 15 - 08:26 AM makes a personal attack on Jim Carroll and manages to lower the discussion which has - in the main - been quite useful. In another recent thread, I had occasion to defend someone else who I felt was being the subject of an anonymous unjust comment. This was followed by an intervention which said [Post deleted as anonymous attack. Those who post anonymously in the music section are expected to be on their best behavior. -Joe Offer-] I feel that the post that I mention and a similar previous one is a case for another intervention. Over to you, Joe.... |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 04 Dec 15 - 08:26 AM told you.... he's a plonker, total and utter- surprising he's learned so little despite all the work he says he's done |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 04 Dec 15 - 05:52 AM re read my posts, you have your wires crossed. What has CCE got do with this. I have frequently made my criticisms of CCE clear on this forum. Jim, which member of this forum was stopped from posting to Musical Tradtions?it was not me. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:59 AM "Why has it taken so many posts to answer a very obvious question?" Because they can't my anonymous friend and you with all your trollism have failed to show with all your insulting and abusive postings and your refusal to respond to what people have to say are the last person to claim to have left anything here but a sour taste in thye mouth. Dick - want to go back and count the number of times you have spoken up for CCE and its competitions on this forum - no ? Didn't think so! You and your abusive postings is as much of a troll as the Man in Black here, which is why people regard you the way they do and why you get thrown off discussion forums. I have no intention of responding to your posts any more - it nauses up threads. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:51 AM It is absoutely clear from my posts that I amn referring to TV trad music programmes. HERE IS WHAT I SAID.in reply to Jims statement "If you want to hear traditional music as it his played here (at present only five nights a week - in the Summer months the music starts on Monday and finishes on Sunday - from May to September) - try the 'Gradam Ceoil TG4 - The Traditional Irish Music Awards' - plenty of examples of youngsters playing like veteran virtuosos" a matter of opinion, their competence cannot be disputed, however what i hear on TG4 on some occasions are musicians who technically are very good, but who lack something[ a joie de vivre] that can be heard on recordngs like paddy in the smoke, those irish musicians who were forced to emigrate and who were working during the week, and who clearly looked forward to meeting up with other irish musicians there is an enthuisam ,that is missing [to my ears] it could be that with TG4 the muscians have to play the music over and over so that photographers can get good shots, it is not always the best music that is selected for the programmes. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:28 AM Jim, I am talking about the way TV trad music is recorded., for the programmes you mentioned, nothing else. no mention of CCE by me[ although i happen to agree with you on that]neither have i referred to live music, I suggest you re read my post carefully or go to spec savers, and stop claiming i have said things that i have not. you really are tedious. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:26 AM Yes, pop songs can become traditional. Why has it taken so many posts to answer a very obvious question? |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Dec 15 - 07:32 PM "watch your telly if you want, others are playing the music, including me.." I'll have to take your word for that since you make your snide attacks anonymously - as do all our trolls Can't be up to much if you don't have the bottle to give us your name. There really isn't much to be said for appearing on tele or the media - been there, done that - three television appearances this year and six radio programmes (all to promote the singers you have sneeringly referred to as "old codgers"). Three years ago it was a three-part radio series on your work with Travellers 'Come All you Loyal Travellers' on Lyric FM. Then before that - three programmes on our Clare CD 'Around The Hills of Clare' tall "old codgers again I'm afraid. Due to make another for Radio Kerry on our collecting in Ireland in the not-too-distant future. Think it was three radio programmes and part of a four part television series on traditional storytelling in the U.K. - shit - "old codgers again" We (Pat and I) appeared under our own name, so it' all checkable. Anyway, getting on tele is not what it's all about - as far as we're concerned - tends to get in the way of the real work. You want a pissing competition - dream on bro! "but who lack something " Begrudgery nonsense Dick and this time aims at young kids - shame on you. You have been promoting Comhaltas' 'playing by numbers' style of playing which is designed to win competitions for as long as you have been on this forum - noted for its 'playing by the rulebook' for the adjudicator. The kids that break free of the competition ethos become beter musicians, but under the dead hand of CCE (once described as by one of the greatest influential figures in Irish music as "an organisation with a great future behind it" - very little chance. You want to knock youngsters playing - do so if that's what turns you on - I prefer to talk about the success and failure of the teachers. Suggest that if you think youngsters lack a joie de vivre - go listen to Edel Fox or Padráic Keane and tell us there's not 'joy of living' in it PADRÁIC KEANE You'll never reach that standard while you've got a hole in your arse. For those who don't know Padráic - he is the grandson of the late Tom McCarthy - the London-based piper and concertina player - now the third generation - would Tom have been proud of him!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 03 Dec 15 - 03:52 PM You really are a plonker Jim Carroll- watch your telly if you want, others are playing the music, including me.... |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 03 Dec 15 - 01:14 PM Larry, they are considered folk in The UK too. There's supposed to be one in every village, we have a commune of them here on Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 03 Dec 15 - 12:45 PM If you want to hear traditional music as it his played here (at present only five nights a week - in the Summer months the music starts on Monday and finishes on Sunday - from May to September) - try the 'Gradam Ceoil TG4 - The Traditional Irish Music Awards' - plenty of examples of youngsters playing like veteran virtuosos" a matter of opinion, their competence cannot be disputed, however what i hear on TG4 on some occasions are musicians who technically are very good, but who lack something[ a joie de vivre] that can be heard on recordngs like paddy in the smoke, those irish musicians who were forced to emigrate and who were working during the week, and who clearly looked forward to meeting up with other irish musicians there is an enthuisam ,that is missing [to my ears] it could be that with TG4 the muscians have to play the music over and over so that photographers can get good shots, it is not always the best music that is selected for the programmes. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Dec 15 - 12:28 PM "just shows what a lot of cobblers these award wannabe celeb shows are" What exactly "goes to show"? You can't enter "Gradam Ceoil " to be selected - the musicians are selected for an award on the basis of their ongoing work as musicians. You insist on hiding behind your 'guest' identity to spread your bile, so I premium you are neither a musician or singer, just, what we call here, 'a begrudger'. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 03 Dec 15 - 12:14 PM May well be a good point Guest. But to the original question. Can a pop song become traditional? That is debatable and depends on what is meant by traditional. But a pop song can certainly win a Folk Award for original composition! |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 03 Dec 15 - 11:52 AM just shows what a lot of cobblers these award wannabe celeb shows are |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Dec 15 - 11:49 AM "In Ireland, the same principle applies, but even more so" Not in the slightest As with Britain, pop music in American based (complete with the strange Mid-Atlantic accent) and bears no resemblence to traditional music. As for a "Sassenach ear" - Irish Traditional music is probably the most international;y recognised in its truest form than any other national music - not too long ago, you were more likely to hear it in London than you were in Ireland - it can now be heard worldwide - this one-street town welcomes wannabe musicians from all over the world once a year for the Willie Clancy Summer School - most traditional instruments and styles are taught here for a week. We really aren't a dark continent indulging in traditional that "the stranger does not know" If you want to hear traditional music as it his played here (at present only five nights a week - in the Summer months the music starts on Monday and finishes on Sunday - from May to September) - try the 'Gradam Ceoil TG4 - The Traditional Irish Music Awards' - plenty of examples of youngsters playing like veteran virtuosos Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 03 Dec 15 - 11:26 AM To tell you the truth I just posted the details about the Scot Trad Awards because I'd seen them listed. I'm sure pop type songs make their way into the general UK Folk Awards too. In fact they do. This song written by Andy Patridge won the best original song in the 2009 BBC Folk Awards as performed by Jim Moray. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbzefMQt2o0 The song though was originally a single for Patridge's band XTC about 25 years earlier! So a pop song from 1984 wins a Folk Award 25 years after it was originally released?? The point being that a standard pop song is turned into a folk award winner just by different instrumentation and who is singing it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfw1uW8_JWU |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 03 Dec 15 - 09:35 AM Maybe the fact that modern compositions fit easily into the 'folk' or 'traditional' categories at the Scottish awards may well be due to the fact that there is a much greater value placed on the tradition in Scotland. It may appear to outsiders a bit chauvinistic at times, but it's a fact that a majority of all Scots could list(& even sing) a series of older 'folk' or 'traditional' songs when most non-folkie English would struggle to do the equivalent. So they have real criteria on which to base their judgement. It may sound like 'pop' music to Sassenach ears but who are we to judge? In Ireland, the same principle applies, but even more so |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 03 Dec 15 - 04:10 AM Not really sure what you mean by "not convinced Anne" I am simply posting what is up for the Trad Music Awards this year. I have not created this list just sent links to it. The Sorren Maclean link (which I tried twice) for some reason doesn't work but it can be accessed through the folk radio link itself. It lists all the nominees in each category and gives examples. You said "I'm fairly certain that the contemporary music which is being recognised is instrumental" so I simply posted the links to show that your assumption was mistaken! If anyone can't access the folk page link then just google "Sorren Maclean Soundcloud" and it brings up his page and the song "Rows And Rows Of Boxes" which is the one on the folk radio url. As to the value of the music shown? Well I wasn't commenting on that anyway. That is just personal taste. I simply showed that the Scottish Trad Awards have a category for Composers Of The Year" and within that category there is music which could easily fit within the pop category too. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 03 Dec 15 - 03:57 AM "Just saying that the Scottish folk music family doesn't seem to be hung up on the narrow definition" Nor should it be. The narrow definition is for folklorists and scholars. If a piece of music can be said to be in a traditional style, or even if it merely draws on traditional styles and influences, then why shouldn't it have a place in the modern folk music community? As I said previously, the Scottish Traditional Music Awards are very clearly using the word to mean a particular style, rather than in an academic sense, and they possibly take a fairly broad view of what that style encompasses. In that context, I see nothing wrong in the way they use it and I'm not going to argue that it's wrong to have a section for newly-written pieces. However in a different context I might argue that an unaltered piece by a known composer is not "traditional", albeit that it may be in a wholly traditional style and may very likely become "traditional" over time. This is about the terms used to describe music, so it is about language rather than the music itself. Context is crucial to the understanding of language. Most of the time the context should be obvious, and the terms used should be interpreted accordingly. It seems to me that all too often the arguments which break out on here are because someone has ignored the context and tried to apply an interpretation which isn't appropriate to the discussion. There are times when pedantry and precision are required, and times when they are not. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Anne Neilson Date: 02 Dec 15 - 08:52 PM Hi, Allan. Can't say I agree with your assessments for the Scottish Traditional Music Awards. I'm not convinced by the links from you that I could access and I have serious doubts about the lasting potential of the music posted. My bottom line is that a song/communication needs to connect with someone/audience in a meaningful way, which suggests that it should be a) meaningful b) linked to their life somehow and c) appropriate to future expectations. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 02 Dec 15 - 07:17 PM For some reason the Sorren Maclean example not working but to access that second example click on the bottom of the three links on my first example email. Scroll down to Composer of the Year and there are 6 examples. One is the Ross Ainslie song as posted and another is the Sorren Maclean. Both could, but Macleans especially could, sit in a more pop category. Just saying that the Scottish folk music family doesn't seem to be hung up on the narrow definition |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 02 Dec 15 - 07:11 PM Sorry first link didn't work. https://soundcloud.com/abadgeoffriendship/sorren-maclean-rows-rows-of-3/s-XHiR4?in=folk-radio-uk/sets/scots-trad-music-awards-20 |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 02 Dec 15 - 07:06 PM Well for a start whether it is intrumental or not is beside the point. If a tune or song is just composed but is regarded as being traditional then it is being regarded as traditional because of what it sounds like not because of it being written by anon and passed down through the generations. More importantly though Anne you are simply wrong in your assertion that all the composers in the run for awards compose only tunes. They don't and some could easily fall into the singer-songwriter more pop tradition. Re two examples below of those in line for awards taken from the MG Alba Scot Trad Awards site also posted below https://soundcloud.com/abadgeoffriendship/sorren-maclean-rows-rows-of-3/s-XHiR4?in=folk-radio-uk/sets/scots-trad-music-awards-20 https://soundcloud.com/folk-radio-uk/ross-ainslie-dreaming-daisy/s-XHiR4?in=folk-radio-uk/sets/scots-trad-music-awards-2015 http://www.folkradio.co.uk/2015/11/mg-alba-scots-trad-music-awards-album-of-the-year/ |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 02 Dec 15 - 04:15 PM "Tom Dooley" is an old North Carolina folk song based on the 1866 murder of a woman named Laura Foster in Wilkes County, North Carolina, allegedly by Tom Dula. The song is best known today because of a hit version recorded in 1958 by The Kingston Trio. ON TOP OF OLD SMOKEY. Fans of English football League One side Notts County FC chant the song during games. However, they have changed the lyrics to 'I had a wheelbarrow, the wheel fell off' after mishearing a Shrewsbury Town fan sing the original song in a west country accent. In 1978, "On Top of Old Smokey" was released by Swedish pop group ABBA as part of a medley that also included "Pick a Bale of Cotton" and "Midnight Special". The medley featured as the B-side to the group's single "Summer Night City". |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Anne Neilson Date: 02 Dec 15 - 03:57 PM Re. Allan Conn's post anent the Scots Traditional Music Awards -- I'm fairly certain that the contemporary music which is being recognised is instrumental, but composed by musicians who are usually steeped in traditional styles. Singers who might be rewarded on the night will probably be singing a majority of traditional songs (or perhaps modern songs in a traditional way), but I can't think of any performer who would be offering 'a pop song' for consideration. So, again going back to the original question, my answer would still be NO. (As a child of the 60s, there are many of the pop songs of that era that I can only sing along with an approximation of the big guitar riff -- which suggests that it exists as a 'complete' entity and implies that any deviation is unimaginable, so the folk process is on a hiding to nothing.) But, by the same token, I have absolutely no difficulty in imagining that a vast number of the tunes recently composed -- in march, strathspey, jig or reel time -- by musicians such as Willie Hunter, Ian Hardie, Phil Cunningham, Aly Bain et al will eventually (and more likely sooner rather than later) be taken in to the tradition. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Larry the Radio Guy Date: 02 Dec 15 - 01:34 PM Looking at that list that Vic Smith posted......virtually all those songs would be ones considered 'folk' or 'folk oriented' in North America singarounds, etc. Virtually all of them (even the traditional ones) are usually associated with one particular version.....although with something like Tom Dooley, somebody will always come up and perform and older version. Which is great. I'm wondering if any of those......from whatever definition you want to use, ever become 'traditional'.....and, if so, what would have to happen. And is it possible for a song that we don't think of 'traditional' today to become traditional in the future? How? |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 02 Dec 15 - 11:17 AM But it also seemingly states "The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character." So what I was pointing out is that the Scottish folk community as a whole regards brand new compositions by Scottish singer songwriters as Trad when the said works have not been refashioned and recreated by the community over time? I take it what makes qualify is if it is mostly acoustic and might have a wee bit fiddle or something in the background. In other words it sounds kind of folky so it is regarded as Trad! The short list for this years composers is based on recent compositions. They are in line for trad awards now - not in years to come when the compositions have been refashioned. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 02 Dec 15 - 10:36 AM Allan, the 1954 "definition" describes folk music as the product of a process of evolution by oral transmission within a community. It explicitly states that this can be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community, as well as to music which originated anonymously within that community. It is concerned with the outcome, rather than the origin. It is therefore entirely possible for a folk song to have originated from a known composer. From that point of view, composed songs which remain substantially unaltered are not "folk", no matter how popular they may be or how important a place they hold in the repertoire of that community's musicians. That might include songs which have emerged from that community but which have not yet had time to go through the evolutionary process. However the 1954 definition was drawn up for the purposes of academic study, and most modern performers will take a broader view and consider anything from the community's repertoire. To take your earlier point, if the Scottish fiddle tradition contains a large number of composed pieces, played more or less faithfully to the original, I don't see how this is devalued because they fail to meet the academic criteria for "folk music", or that they should be of any less interest to modern performers. It is very clear from the context of your link that the Scots Trad awards are interested in a style of music, rather than an academic study of its origins and development. There is nothing inconsistent with using terms differently in different contexts, and I see nothing inconsistent with including newly-composed material in a style which leans towards traditional Scottish music in these awards, whilst recognising that these are not (yet) "folk music" from an academic point of view. If we could only remember this distinction between academic study and collecting, and a modern community of live amateur and professional performance, and realise we are talking about entirely separate but related things, then a lot of acrimony could be avoided. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 02 Dec 15 - 08:38 AM I do a version of Cousin Jack which I realised was different when I went back to listen to Show Of Hands. The chorus is basically the same but the verse is a different though very similar tune! So it is still theoretically possible for the folk process to work despite the recorded versions and youtube etc. Anyway re the link below. According to the 54 definition I take it there should be no such thing as a composer of traditional music? However that is one of the categories in the Scots Trad Music Awards! So as a whole the Scottish folk music fraternity seems to recognise that folk/trad music consists of more than the narrow definition. http://www.folkradio.co.uk/2015/11/mg-alba-scots-trad-music-awards-album-of-the-year/ |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Vic Smith Date: 02 Dec 15 - 06:24 AM What Howard has written above would seem to be a development and elucidation of what I wrote in the second paragraph of my post on 30 Nov 15 - 01:12 PM and as such I find myself in total agreement with it. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 02 Dec 15 - 04:03 AM For a song to become "traditional" in the sense that I understand it, it must become separated from its original and take on a life of its own. In the past, before recordings, that was relatively easy, but nowadays it is much more difficult to separate the song from a definitive recording of it. Many pop songs have proved to be long-lasting and have entered popular culture, but it is difficult to think of, for example, "Yesterday" without thinking of the Beatles' version, or "Wonderwall" without referencing Oasis. It is not just the song which enters popular culture but a particular recorded version of it. We also no longer have a popular singing culture which allows or encourages the development of pop songs into traditional ones. With original recordings to refer back to, the idea of a "correct" version is ever-present. If people sing at all, it is very likely to be karaoke where they sing along to a version of the recorded original. Other performers may create their own covers, which may be very different, but these are consciously different versions rather than developing through a "folk process". It may be easier for songs in the folk miliue to become "traditional", as these are more likely to be spread by other singers taking them up and performing them live. This is certainly true of a lot of folk dance tunes, which are passed between musicians at sessions and may quickly become detached from their original title and composer; many are assumed to be "traditional" in origin, and probably now meet the criteria through the way they are disseminated and the variations which creep in. For pop songs, which are known principally from commercial recordings, it seems far less likely that this will happen, but it is entirely possible and cannot be ruled out. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Western Trails Date: 01 Dec 15 - 11:18 PM I think that modern popular songs could easily become folk songs if they either enter the oral tradition, or otherwise continue to be sung and listened to long after their initial heyday. I mean, Camptown Races, Oh Susanna, and Old Dan Tucker all started as minstrel songs and then became folk songs. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:08 PM In my imagination... not sure which one most looks like Gandalf Wrong again - that'd be me dad! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: MGM·Lion Date: 01 Dec 15 - 05:15 PM Don't mind at all, Dick. You are welcome to any of my customary vocabulary which will inspire you to such Olympian flights of rhetoric, you Luvverly Big Booby, you! I remember a good song called "Compliments Returned": wasn't it Tony Rose who used to sing it? ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:05 PM ... and Dick - A Warrior Minstrel Hobbit/Leprechaun.... Hmmm... almost on our way to a Dungeons & Dragons Chess set.... 😜 |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:52 PM MGM - The Bard of Mudcat Jim - The Keeper of The Scrolls In my imagination... not sure which one most looks like Gandalf..... 😜 |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:38 PM I am being accurate you quibble over minor detail, but do not acknowledge the importance of members of the UK Folk revival in helping to promote and encourage Walter to share his family songs with outsiders. Booby is a term MGM has thrown at members of this forum from time to time, one thing MGM about is that he has a fine style with his insults, so I am sure hoe doesnt mind if the compliment is returned. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:20 PM Mike, my point was not about whether "You'll never walk alone" is a folk song, but about different uses of the word "traditional". In the context of folk music it has a certain meaning, but in general usage its meaning is wider, and it may be "traditional" to perform pieces of music which are not traditional in the folk sense, either by origin or in style. Bert Lloyd's comment about "folk in function but not form" says it far better than I did. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Dec 15 - 02:58 PM "When Ewan MacColl or Bob Dylan borrowed heavily (to sanitise the term) from traditional song in order to be able to receive royalties as the writers of the song, " Don't know about Dylan but perhaps you could enlighten us on the songs MacColl "borrowed heavily from"? Having observed your hit and run tactics, I don't for one minute expect an answer to this. Take a peep at the Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook and you'll find Peggy took great pains to identify where his songs came from - virtually all traditionally based. Then again - it's pretty easy slandering someone whose ben dead for over a quarter of a century, just as easy as taking the piss out of old people. You really are a piece of work - aren't you? "You are behaving like a Booby" Are you surprised that you got kicked of another forum for your atrocious behaviour Dick? Keep it up and you'll end up with two-of-a-kind - then you can aim for a prile. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Steve Gardham Date: 01 Dec 15 - 02:51 PM Jim, As usual in threads of this sort there are all sorts of discussions going on at once. What I am seeing is a person who I respect immensely (despite our few disagreements) being baited and sidetracked by all sorts of trolls. ''I don't think I imagine the hostility I sense when these topics come up.'' There are people here like Brian, Vic and Mike who have a great deal of knowledge and integrity. Your arguments would be much more cohesive if you ignored the trolls and those with a chip on their shoulder. BTW, it's very gracious of you but no need for apologies. What it actually says, the fact that I can run off a description in 10 minutes, fits in very well with what Vic is saying. Like you, I don't like the idea that 'folk music' is now being used to cover a whole swathe of commercial music, but there's absolutely f**k all either of us can do about it. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 01 Dec 15 - 02:10 PM MGM , You are behaving like a Booby[ one of your own terms]. the dictionry defintion of pedant I was going with was: a person who annoys other people by correcting small errors and giving too much attention to minor details, it fits Jim Carroll perfectly, he quibbles over minor detail but will not give credit To Peter Bellamy and other uk Folk Revivalists who appreciated Walter Pardon. not only is he a pedant but he is predictably tedious. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 01 Dec 15 - 01:39 PM Ralph Vaughan Williams made his stash turning traditional tunes into themes in scores he could then copyright and collect on. When Ewan MacColl or Bob Dylan borrowed heavily (to sanitise the term) from traditional song in order to be able to receive royalties as the writers of the song, were they no longer folk? Defining and categorising opens more cans of worms than it settles arguments. But the one about music of the people is the funniest yet. My two year old granddaughter will be able to get up and sing a Sugar Babes hit once it goes out of copyright and becomes traditional folk then. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: MGM·Lion Date: 01 Dec 15 - 12:40 PM "Likewise it may be "traditional" to sing "You'll never walk alone" at football matches, but that doesn't necessarily make it a folk song." .,,. Nobody said it did, Howard. The term 'folk song' appears deliberately to have been omitted from the thread title, and whether a pop song can become such is not what is being discussed here. (However, I did put this very example, as to whether 'walk alone' could be regarded as a folksong when sung at Anfield, as I have related here before, to Bert Lloyd in an interview I did with him for Folk Review (Sep 1974). "Folk in function but not in form," he replied. "In folk, does not the function define the form to some extent?" I rejoined. "It does to some extent," he conceded.) ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Dec 15 - 12:30 PM "So I knocked it up in 10 minutes. " Sorry Steve - shouldn't have done that - battle fatigue. Basically, I don't disagree with much of what you wrote - I think it's a fair summary of what happens in many folks clubs. What worries me is that if we can scribble our definitions off in ten minutes, why can't everybody? I come to folk song from a number of directions, as do you. I enjoy listening and singing, but I also believe it carries a load of important historical and social baggage with it. I have to either make rational sense of both of them together or treat them as separate entities. Up to now it's been no problem The clubs I have been involved with basically featured traditional songs, but also encouraged the singing and writing of new ones. I became hooked on ballads through listening to MacColl, who insisted that traditional singing would have no relevance if new songs weren't added to the repertoire. He probably wrote more contemporary songs than anyone on the scene, yet he was accused of being a purist ("finger-in-the-ear" was based on the way he performed). Around a quarter of my own repertoire are songs that have been made during my lifetime. My real concern is that the further you move away from the exiting definition without replacing it with another that we can all agree on and work with, the more chance we have of losing what we've got. I don't think I imagine the hostility I sense when these topics come up. Again apologies Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 01 Dec 15 - 11:55 AM When the local fiddlers in these part of the woods sit down for a session of "traditional fiddle music" what they actually play tends to be a mixture of actual traditional tunes (ie written by anon) and tunes with a known composer. They don't seem to differentiate much between them if at all. They just all sound like Scottish fiddle tunes hence people regard it all as folk music. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Vic Smith Date: 01 Dec 15 - 11:11 AM The discussion has brought many interesting thoughts and posts about how folk songs develop, what should be in and what should not and though it has not been free from rancour and point-scoring, it has never descended to the level where I felt that the mods were about to step in and close the thread. When he frees himself from his profound disputatious tendencies, (not that often, I'll agree), I find much to sympathise and agree with in what Jim Carroll writes. His views are clear and unchanging and in many ways that is admirable. If we are to take a wider view and step out of the small broom cupboard of Mudcat for a while, we find quickly that we are in a different world. Here is an example of what I mean. The influential, very widely used American website and some time magazine, Folk Alley is a place that I visit from time to time. It avoids analysis, takes an uncritical, inclusive approach and avoids the sort of internecine rows that Mudcat revels in. Generally, it does not cater for my fairly purist views, but every time I go there I find something of interest. I had remembered that they had held a poll to establish The 100 Essential Folk Songs and by that they meant recorded performances - no attempt was made to define what was allowed. Here are the results 1-100 in terms of votes:- This Land is Your Land - Woody Guthrie Now, to my way of thinking less than 10% of that list are folk songs and an even smaller percentage are of performances of folk songs that I would enjoy - Anne Neilson comes closest to my idea of what it's all about when she writes:- So, my bottom line is that a traditional song (handed down orally etc.) is a special thing, particularly when it has come from performers of the calibre of Jeannie Robertson etc. -- but there is no bar to another song becoming equally significant…. We have to accept that the list is indicative of American opinion even though there are more songs that are out and out pop songs than out and out folk songs. If we want to inculcate people towards our own approach and views, we have to proceed in a way that demonstrates why we love what we call 'authentic' without being didactic or precious in our methods. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Steve Gardham Date: 01 Dec 15 - 11:07 AM Hi Jim, So I knocked it up in 10 minutes. So you don't like it? Which bits precisely do you not accept or not agree with? |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Dec 15 - 10:35 AM ""Remind me, how long have you been on the scene?" " That was in reference to this "If a definition of folk has been researched for over a century, it wasn't well documented or promoted." It had sod all to do with how long you had been on the scene - just a reference to what I believed to be a stupid statement. One of the first things I learned when w ran workshops was that everybody brought something to the music no matter how long they'd been on the scene. I'd resent claims that seniority brings authority, the same way I resent the twot who keeps suggesting that people have no right to comment and criticise because they aren't singers or they don't command such-and-such a fee - made at least once on this thread and often elsewhere. If I have given a different impression - I apologise. It goes against how we have always worked. Jim Carroll |
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