Can a pop song become traditional?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 12:59 PM

Walter sang the songs from his family, that is what his audience were expecting, Walter had not sang out for many years because local people scorned his family songs, when he was discovered by the uk folk revival, he sang for an audience from the uk folk revival who wanted to hear his family songs,Walter obliged, he sang for an audience who atlast wanted to hear those songs, previously to this he had not sung out because in his own words local people did not want to hear them, he sang them at home. here is a documentary[ which you are fmiliar with] about Walter which confirms this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B95JAQe1Wt
Jim, you are so sexy.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 12:49 PM

"You have somewhat arrogantly told us why he sang what he sang - never having met him"
incorrect, what I said was a fact,nothing arrogant about it, he sang certain songs at festivals or folk clubs because people had turned up to hear him sing those songs, he knew what they were expecting and obliged, no different from HARRY COX, or revival singers like Carthy. Jim, can you define tradtional?
Brian you say you know what tradtional is, what is it, does it include pop songs or music hall songs?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 11:55 AM

Some great new traditional songs performed on "Sweet Liberties" tour - Cecil Sharp House was like Jodrell Bank last night with pro video cammeras all around and who knows how many digital recorders in the audience !!!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:34 AM

"'this is a traditional song' or 'this is a folk song' "
Me neither - neither has anybody I know to an audience
What's your point?
This isn't about what you sing, whether you enjoy it or what you tell your audience - it's about how you understand it if you wish to discuss it - are you suggesting that we shouldn't do that, or it is not important, or that we should all be singalongers and shouldn't take the music we have spent our lives listening to, seriously?
"NOT FOR JOSEPH NOT FOR JOE. WALTER HAD AT LEAST 8 SONGS IN HIS REPERTOIRE THAT WERE NOT TRADITIONAL SONGS."
Walter had at least 3 or four dozen songs that were not traditional, he had a phenomenal memory and remembered everything he heard - he had read every Dickens and Thomas Hardy novel and could reel of the plots of all and thee names of the characters at the drop of a hat.
He was fully aware which songs were traditional and which were not and he very seldom, if ever sang his non traditional songs in front of an audience - though he was happy to put all of them on tape.
His knowledge of his repertoire dates back to 1949, when he first started writing down his family songs in notebooks (which we have)
We carried out a long interview with him where he itemizes his songs and described how he knew they were traditional.
He went on to describe the point at which family members of his age abandoned the family repertoire and started singing "the other stuff" - all on tape and archived.
What is your point?
You have somewhat arrogantly told us why he sang what he sang - never having met him.
He believed his traditional songs were important enough to write down from the days he came out of the Army after his war service.
"if you fecked off,I would have no one to discuss it with."
There's a lesson to b learned there Dick - perhaps you should take the hint and learn from it before it's too late.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 07:01 AM

"Brian Peters, he chooses to sing a song about Fish and Chips, He clearly likes the song, I doubt if he worries about whether he thinks it is a folk song..."

Indeed he doesn't. As you suggest, Dick, I plan my set list with light and shade in mind, like any decent performer does. I don't plan my set around the 1954 definition, and neither - as far as I know - does anyone else. Doesn't mean I don't have an idea of what 'traditional' means, though.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:53 AM

Jim, I have never EVER said to listeners 'this is a traditional song' or 'this is a folk song' - after all I've said, it would be the kind of dogmatic statement I'd avoid like a date with Edwina Currie.

I might introduce a song by saying 'I got this from e.g. Willie Scott, or Sam Cooke' as it's a bit of extra information, but it's up to the listener to put songs in categories, if they really must, certainly not my role.

There are MANY good songs in my repertoire which could be described as 'traditional' or .....perish the thought 'pop'. I do them my own way, and have never excluded anything for reasons of its provenance because I don't draw lines- other people do enough of that. If we are concerned about passing on the tradition, I would suggest that to exclude a vast proportion of 'popular music' because of some outdated and unsatisfactory definition is likely to seriously damage the chances of anyone listening and passing on this amazing music.

This has been an interesting discussion, and I'm not excluding joining it again, but for now think I've made my opinions clear on the original question (see above) so keep calm & carry on.....

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 03:44 AM

Have you got a storm up there Jim, its blowing a gale down here

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 03:29 AM

here is some of Walters Repertoire
Cover photo by Sylvia PitcherMT CD 305:

    Cupid the Ploughboy
    A Country Life
    The Poor Smuggler's Boy
    I'm Yorkshire Though in London
    Seventeen Come Sunday
    The Parson and the Clerk
    Blow the Winds I-O
    Hold the Fort
    All Among the Barley
    Black-Eyed Susan
    Caroline and Her Young Sailor Bold
    Lord Lovel
    The Skipper and his Boy
    Thornaby Woods
    An Old Man's Advice
    If I Were a Blackbird
    The Bonny Bunch of Roses-O
    The Green Bushes
    Polly Vaughan
    The Saucy Sailor
    Little Ball of Yarn
    The Huntsman

MT CD 306:

    Put a Bit of Powder on it, Father
    The Cuckoo
    Old Joe the Boat is Going Over
    Cock-a-Doodle-Do
    The Harland Road / Wheel Your P'rambulator
    Ben Bolt
    Uncle Walter's Tune
    Two Lovely Black Eyes
    Alice Grey
    Rosin-a-Beau
    Not for Joseph, Not for Joe
    The Old Armchair
    The Marble Arch
    Wake Up Johnny / When the Cock begins to Crow / Saving Them All for Mary / Down by the Old Abbey Ruins
    The Mistletoe Bough
    On a See-Saw
    Your Faithful Sailor Boy
    Here's to the Grog
    Nancy Lee
    Up the Chimney Pot / Slave Driving Farmers / Bound to Emigrate to New Zealand
    Husband Taming
    Uncle Walter's March
    If I Ever Get Drunk Again
    Naughty Jemima Brown
    The Dandy Man
    For Me, For Me
    While Shepherds Watched

so apart from those I have mentioned before in my last post, We also have, While Shepherds Watched, Two lovely black eyes, NOT FOR JOSEPH NOT FOR JOE. WALTER HAD AT LEAST 8 SONGS IN HIS REPERTOIRE THAT WERE NOT TRADITIONAL SONGS.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 03:16 AM

if you fecked off,I would have no one to discuss it with.
Jim can I put a question to you, Old Brown's Daughter was an English music hall song, sung by Alfred Vance, and became a Newfoundland folk song. It was written by G.W. Hunt (1839–1904).
Walter Pardon sang this song, he was described as traditional singer,these are facts do you agree/ now I know you will say Walter differentiated between his songs, but he did not use the 1954 definition. Walter sang the songs because they had been in his family? do you agree?or did he sing the songs because he liked them? or was it [which is my opinion] a bit of both, if it was a bit of both he had something in common with Jim Bainbridge, WHO SAID HE SANG A SONG BECAUSE IT WAS A GOOD SONG.
It could be argued that Old Browns Daughter was originally a pop song, it certainly was a popular song of its day being a Music Hall song, so it could be argued that O B Daughter is an example of a popsong becoming a tradtional song, because it was in the repertoire of a traditional singer, that would be logical if [as it appears to be the case] tradtional singers are classified as traditional singers because of the way they ;learned their song and their material.
would a traditional singer still be classified as such if he learned all his songs orally but they were all music hall or popular or popsongs.
Is it 100 per cent correct to still call Walter a traditional singer when he included in his repertoire GRAND MOTHERS OLD ARM CHAIR, OLD BROWNS DAUGHTER, OLD JOE THE BOAT IS GOING OVER, NAUGHTY JEMIMA BROWN THE MISTLETOE BOUGH, all of the above are composed songs of the victorian era most of which were popular in the music halls, and would have been classified as popular songs of the day or music hall songs.
Touche,Jim.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:42 PM

"I am just being friendly,Jim, fuck off is a term of endearment around here."
'Suppose it is Dick - ain't I lucky I live in Clare!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:42 PM

"I am just being friendly,Jim, fuck off is a term of endearment around here."
'Suppose it is Dick - ain't I lucky I live in Clare!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:12 PM

I am just being friendly,Jim, fuck off is a term of endearment around here.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:08 PM

"CheckMate and fuck off"
Tried to be nice there Dick even though I knew it was a waste of time
Won't try again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:51 PM

but he was still pleasing his crowd , the crowd that had turned up to see Walter Pardon the traditional singer who sang old ballads that had been in his family.WalterPardon could never have hacked it as margaret Barry did as a busker on the streets.
Walter was promoted and audiences turned up to see him   on the rare occasions he sang in folk clubs and folk festival. HE PLEASED HIS CROWD BY SINGING WHAT WAS EXPECTED OF HIM.
BobDavenport and JimBainbridge do the same but they are carrying on the attitude of the traveller tradtional singers [who you collect from] of singing songs on the basis of whether the song is a good song, rather than its classification., or the 1954 . CheckMate and fuck off

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:38 PM

"The expectations of the audience"
Walter was singer who dedicated his life to gathering together his families songs - he did not sing to order.
If that is what we expect of our singers, why bother having them at all - why not install a juke box
Walter was booked for what he sang and how he sang them - not as a crowd pleaser
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:27 PM

The expectations of the audience, THAT IS MY POINT.
If you turned up for a Martin Carthy gig, it will have been promoted in a certain way, you will be expecting a particular style of song, if you turn up for a Jim Bainbridge gig you know what you are likely to get, if you turn up to Leon Rosselson you have expectations, no one needs a 1954 FOLK Defininition to decide whether an artist is their particular taste to make a decision about attendance.
so another point is that as soon as people start to charge money thee become expectations.
Charlie Stringer sang as a non professional he was classified by John Howson who was in the business of becoming a collector and wanted him to be part of his old hat party and be a "traditional singer" ,but Charlie, just sang what he like, an old ballad one minute a country and western song the nex,,
you know as well as i do that traveller "tradtional" singers the sort you collect, do precisely, this they dont care about definitions they sing exactly what they want, country and western and/or old ballads, they decide upon their songs not upon classification but because they think the song is a good song.JIM BAINBRIDGES Point
this in my opinion only changes when people start to make money out of it and start to have an image and an audience starts to have expectations.
if paying people turned up to a Carthy concert and he sang Lonnie Donegan songs all night, they would be surprised and probably shocked, and might ask for their money back, but it would not be anything to do with the 1954 definition.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:36 PM

"Walter had opinions, so do I, so do you, but he chose to sing a song because he liked it, "
Who doesn't and who suggested you shouldn't
You have no idea what motivated Walter to sing
But none of this alters the fact that he and every other singer we have questioned, differentiated between the type of song they sang whatever they sang.
Sorry Dick - no intention of getting bogged down with you unless you have a point to make
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:31 PM

Walter had opinions, so do I, so do you, but he chose to sing a song because he liked it, AND because his audience expected it, for example he might have liked[possibly] the white cliffs of dover, but he knew that was not what traditional folk song collectors were after, he also knew that was not what was expected of him in a folk club, Harry Cox was the same.
NOW a traditonal singer like charlie stringer would sing the highwayman outwitted and five minutes later, carolina moon, because he just liked singing both songs.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 10:29 AM

"Could it be that after 61 years the 1954 definition is outdated?"
It's very much in need of revising based on what we know now - it may no longer serve its purpose any more, but if we are going to continue to attempt to draw peoples' attention to the music and discuss it among ourselves, we need something we can all agree (more or less) on.
The problem lies with some of the arguments put up here by some people who argue that you don't need to define what you sing - if you confine your singing to your rubber duck in the bath, of course you don't, but if you attempt to draw people in in order to pass on the music you consider important, you most certainly do - same goes if you write about it or broadcast it publicly - "what it says on the tin".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:49 AM

Could it be that after 61 years the 1954 definition is outdated?


Just asking.














OK I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:41 AM

"Did Walter Pardon need to consult the 1954 definition before he sang a song?"
Walter filled tape after tape with his opinions of what constituted a folk song without ever being prompted to do so.
Nobody has to consult anything before singing a song and nobody has ever suggested that they should - not in my hearing anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:01 AM

Did Walter Pardon need to consult the 1954 definition before he sang a song?Did Fred Jordan?or MARGARET BARRY

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:55 AM

does this fit the sacred 1954 Definition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx9NprywlhE

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:47 AM

and so I will go on and on, what about thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtdIQr-AmYM

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:22 AM

most performers learn songs because they like them, however as a performer in a folk club the situation becomes more complicated, here is my particular case.. in a folk club most people who turn up to see me, expect certain to hear certain types of songs, in a pub in ireland the situation is slightly different and a different repertoire has to be used in a singers club in ireland a different repertoire again, all the songs I would sing would all be classified as folk songs although once or twice in uk folk clubs in the past at the request of concertina afficianados, i have played instrumentals such as yesterday, washington post, dill pickle rag, none of which i consider to be traditional or folk material., hoever the majority of the material during the evening would be what I think of as folk songs[ Ido not need any 1954 definition] I know one when i hear one, much as Walter Pardon did
people who go to see Jim Bainbridge, expect a different repertoire, and he does some excellent songs, is the song that he sings about JESUS A FOLK SONG? , all i know is that it is a good song, is the song about The Half Crown a folk song?possibly possibly not , but it is a good song.
I have in the past sung THE WORLD TURNED UPSIDE DOWN, it is a modern song, is it a folk song?, well it is written in a folk style, but in my opinion it is a good song[regardless of whether it is a folk song or not].
Then we have Brian Peters, he chooses to sing a song about Fish and Chips, He clearly likes the song, I doubt if he worries about whether he thinks it is a folk song, before he sang it, or whether it fitted the 1954 definition, personally I prefer him singing tradtional ballads, but I am sure others would disagree, and I am sure Brian thought carefully more about whether it fitted in to a concert to give contrast humour and light relief rather than whether it fitted the feckin 1954 definition.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:36 AM

"so how can you be so dogmatic and blinkered about it?"
Pretty much as you can be by insisting that you don't need a definition and call whatever you choose "folk" or "traditional" to suit yourself, or claim that it is impossible to define the terms when perfectly serviceable and time tested definitions exist.
Not us being blinkered I'm afraid, just those who choose to ignore what is there to be had.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:03 AM

Firstly, MGM Lion , if you check my original post you'll find that I did say that my quote was a cliché, but like many such, I would defend it as being totally valid in this case. What you are saying is that YOU can say whether a song is 'pop' or 'traditional' on an individual basis. That's just barmy, you're entitled to your opinion, just like Jim Carroll, but you are not infallible, so how can you be so dogmatic and blinkered about it?
I don't intend to discuss your list as there's little point, it doesn't matter anyway. Would suggest you sit down with a nice cup of tea and stop worrying about it- as my mum would have said- 'keep your hair on'
I'm regarded by many as being a 'traditional' performer but have never described myself as such, I just think I have some basis in the 'tradition' as I understand I, but hesitate to tell anyone else what it is. Think Dick knows what I mean...
don't burn your books yet, Jim- I didn't suggest that and see you at the next Synod, Vic?
... dear MGM - no capital letters, no exclamation marks here- keep your hair on

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 05:09 AM

... and about films too, Will. I too have always greatly enjoyed that version of Blithe Spirit which I must have seen at least 10 times -- Rex Harrison, Kay Hammond, Constance Cummings, Margaret Rutherford, Joyce Carey... "I am fully aware of the irony in your tone Dr Bradman!" I have done much work on Noel Coward in my time, as am-actor, director (inc 2 productions of Blithe Spirit), encyclopedia contributor, &c. Once one of a chorus singing adapted version of Mad Dogs & Englishmen at Norfolk CC drama course at Wymondham College... Consider him one of the really great playwrights.

driftdriftdriftdri....... luvverly innit!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:56 AM

I wonder if gypos have a view on all this!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:17 AM

That's a very nice list, Michael. Oddly enough, three of them are in my playing repertoire:

Miss Otis Regrets
Always
Greensleeves

Haven't quite got round to the Ode to Joy yet, but it's only a matter of time...

I remember the first time I heard "Always" - 'twas in the Noel Coward film "Blithe Spirit", which I saw as a child.

This post adds absolutely nothing to the thread, but it's always a pleasing diversion to talk trivia about songs...

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:11 AM

Beethoven's setting of Schiller's Ode To Joy as climax of his Ninth Symphony

Cole Porter's Miss Otis Regrets

The Battle Of Harlaw

Irving Berlin's Always

Greensleeves

The Fox as sung by Burl Ives

Ditto as sung by The Young Tradition ················

USW·&c&c·and so forth to the power of ∞

,.,.,.,.,.

I should rubricate all the above as 'good songs'. Do you, Dick, or does Mr Bainbridge, or indeed does any living breathing sentient human being, genuinely believe that no further distinction needs to be made or that any attempt at taxonomy or categorisation is superfluous????

Oh, come on!.....

luvyazall justersame

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 01:50 PM

Disagree, Dick. Whatever you think he might have meant to communicate, he expressed it with extreme clumsiness in exceedingly copout·worthy terms. "A good song is a good song" does not, unless one is determined on more kindness than such a tautologous idiocy deserves, afford the interpretation you so obligingly chose to put on it. If he simply meant that he sings what he likes without the need for taxonomic categorisation, why couldn't he say so, instead of talking in meaningless truisms? Why, even those pinhead-dancing angels could do better than that.

I say again: if it was not a copout, then it will do for me till a copout comes along.

Regards

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 01:33 PM

"That'll decisively end all arguments."
Did I miss somethink - all you have offered are rather unpleasant ageist snides
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 01:23 PM

So the Guest who finds this thread as futile as the angels-on-a-pin conundrum managed to revive it just when it was dying the death. Nice bit of trolling.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 12:19 PM

What we need is a North Korean or Taliban style ministry of culture.
That'll decisively end all arguments.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 12:05 PM

BodgersThe term was once common around the furniture-making town of High Wycombe in Buckinghamshire, England. Bodgers were highly skilled itinerant wood-turners, who worked in the beech woods of the Chiltern Hills. nothing to do with codgers.
Jim Bainbridges point is not a cop out but valid, he learns a song not because of its classification but because the song appeals to him.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 11:56 AM

@ j bainbridge

If a tacky tautologous turgid trite tortuous truism like

☠☠ 'a good song is a good song' ☠☠

on the part of a normally cogent commentator like yourself is not a

C O P O U T

☞ ☛ ☞ ☛ ☞

then I reckon it will do till a copout comes along.

Regards

☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺❤❤

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 09:08 AM

What did the Synod of Whitby decide about the angels and the pins anyway?
They pondered the question for a long time, Jim, and found that everyone had their own opinions and nobody agreed with anyone else. The more they thought, researched, discussed and argued, the more depressed and sullen they became. Then one of the Synod's brightest brains had a brilliant idea, He stood up and shouted, "I've got it! Some questions don't have answers; this 'angels' and 'pins' thing is one just like..... well let me think for a minute..... yes, just like 'Can a pop song become traditional?' So instead of wasting our time on things that we can't answer, why don't we approach Malcolm Storey and ask him to start a Whitby Folk Week. He'd probably do it for years... decades even... and we could all help him out as stewards!"
There was an immediate round of applause and cheers and shouts of "Great idea!".
So that is what they did and, do you know, they became much happier people afterwards.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 08:43 AM

Synod of Whitby sorted the date of Easter in 664AD, Angels and Pins came much later.

Personally I don't need to define folk music that closely. If I like it fine, if I don't like it fine someone else will.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 08:40 AM

"Have we managed to decide how many angels are dancing on the head of the pin yet?"

more to the point.... what tunes are they dancing to.... Trad or contemporary folk, jazz, or pop music...????

Though I never realised angels were so tiny,
always thought they were at least 5'7" to maybe 6'5" for the really lanky ones..... 😕

silly buggers dancing on pins though... never did understand devout religious self harming and flagellation...???

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 08:37 AM

"In my opinion, nobody has even approached valid definitions"
Been defined internationally since 1954 and had sever hundred books published based on that definition - may not satisfy you Jim, but until someone comes up with a better one, we'll just have to struggle on with the one we've got - that is, if we intend trying to pass on what we've got.
Bit to wet to start burning the books in the garden at the present time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 08:20 AM

No it seems not... I was accused of a 'copout on the subject a while back. It was no such thing. I simply stand by my view that until somebody can define to my satisfaction the nature of the two alleged music types, there is very little point in trying to even approach the question asked above.
In my opinion, nobody has even approached valid definitions- I think it's impossible and unnecessary, but given satisfactory criteria, it might be a worthwhile discussion.

What did the Synod of Whitby decide about the angels and the pins anyway?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 07:57 PM

Have we managed to decide how many angels are dancing on the head of the pin yet?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 03:12 PM

Partridge?    Eric or Don? re the latter now there's was a wonderful exponent of the old English TRADITION of the one man band- much lamented and always enjoyed the folk scene

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 04:58 PM

> possibly a variant of 'botch'

Another one of Partridge's odd conjectures.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 02:50 PM

Thanks for headsup to Slang Dict, Will. I find it is in fact in my Partridge Dict of Slang & Unconventional English -- meaning 'repair', & (confirming my above suggestion) possibly a variant of 'botch' [of which 'bodge' as I used above, a variant.]

Roger & Out!

≈M≈

...but still don't see why only silly old buggers like me should be expected to repair things, at that! Is a young shoemaker, or the girl who puts on the patches at the dry cleaners, a 'codger', then? I think we should be told!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 02:38 PM

Oxford has never heard of the verb to "codge" either.

It suggests the likelihood that "codger" is a variant of "cadger," which originally meant not a beggar or scrounger but an itinerant dealer or street hawker.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 12:29 PM

The Concise Oxford suggest "codger" meaning an old or strange person is perhaps a variant of "cadger".

Cadge means to beg for something so a cadger is a beggar.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 11:42 AM

I found it in various slang dictionaries, including Cassell's Dictionary of Slang (which I have in print).

It also reminds me a bit of cobble, in the sense of "to cobble together" something.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 06:02 AM

Thanks for that definition of 'codge', Will. Seems to be a variant of 'bodge'. Which dictionary did you find it in? Not in my edition of Chambers.

Regards

≈M≈