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Can a pop song become traditional?
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 24 Nov 15 - 04:18 PM Hook line and sinker yet again Dick...... |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 24 Nov 15 - 01:02 PM you reckon you write folk songs? could you let us hear some?Folk is not defined by the term acoustic, acoustic has a definition which means Of or involving the performance of music using acoustic instruments, sometimes amplified through microphones. so jazz could be acoustic, classical music can be acoustic and frequently is and classical music is not folk or traditional. your definition is less accurate than the 1954 one, you are just spouting crap. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 24 Nov 15 - 05:24 AM It isn't quite so ironic when someone has to spell it out to them. Thank you Mr Fly. Presumably those annoyed used to be young codgers. I'm just off to write a new folk song. I have a booking in a folk club on Friday and I usually present a few new folk songs at this annual booking for the good people who listen to my folk songs in a folk club. Not that they are brilliant songs of course. The lazy amongst us have always known folk clubs to be less than discerning audiences. Perhaps I codge them together? Sorry to read that precious people still think the world spins round them. Folk is defined by those using the word. Acoustic, roots, traditional, protest, ballad.., presumably we all know folk all compared to old codgers? |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Will Fly Date: 24 Nov 15 - 05:12 AM Forgot to add, Michael = just a dictionary definition - not my opinion! :-) |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Will Fly Date: 24 Nov 15 - 05:10 AM codge Verb (third-person singular simple present codges, present participle codging, simple past and past participle codged) To patch or cobble together; to make hastily and carelessly. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Nov 15 - 04:48 AM Well, I suppose I am old, at that -- 4-score+3. Whether a 'codger', not for me to say. I mean, how does one 'codge'? What is 'codging' precisely? Not a practice I have ever indulged in sfaik. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 24 Nov 15 - 04:16 AM Sure they can, and are...'House Carpenter' is hundreds of years old...and was also popular at the time...that's why it went on to be 'traditional'. Maybe no one is writing stuff that good anymore.... GfS P.S. A re-post of a prior post expressing pretty much the same thing..jeez, are they deleting above the line, too???..even well known facts???
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,keith price Date: 24 Nov 15 - 04:13 AM I get the feeling Guest regards anyone over the age of 18yrs as old. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Nov 15 - 03:35 AM "Keep wriggling." I'm not the one wriggling - you have my definition and its track record - I still await yours. "With every old codger lining up to claim they were marching at Aldermaston" Your posts seem to have degenerated into simple troll abuse - don't know about the Singers Club being sterile - this rather unpleasant conversation certainly is so I'll leave you to your somewhat personal bile and hope it gives you every satisfaction. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 24 Nov 15 - 02:52 AM With every old codger lining up to claim they were marching at Aldermaston, then Rod Stewart's songs are all folk, not just the ones with mandolins playing on them. Mainly because at least he actually was marching. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Nov 15 - 12:57 AM As one who was on the first Aldermaston March, playing in a group led by Fred [later Karl] Dallas, under the overall ægis of John Hasted, I confirm that there was a very strong folk element on the Aldermastons. Not least in the song which became the CND anthem, The H-Bomb's Thunder, to the tune of The Miners' Life Guard, written by distinguished sf writer John Brunner with whom I happened to be sharing a flat in W Hampstead at the time. John could not sing a note, BTW, so asked me to sing the first draft as a try-out; so I can claim to have been the first ever to sing the song which has later been sung on various occasions by millions worldwide. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: keberoxu Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:21 PM de-define, de-define, de-de all the waaaaaaaaaaaaay..... |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 23 Nov 15 - 03:04 PM "otherwise all those Aldermastons, Faslanes and Anti Vietnam War demonstrations I went on were 'folk' - nevrer heard them described that" errrrm... I think they might have been... or at least, a sub facet of a wider alternative movement's 'folk culture'.... ???? I'm sure that's how it might be regarded in a lot of socio/historic documentaries and magazine articles.. 1960s Folkies were up to there neck's in it all, serious movers and shakers, after all... ???? I'm struggling to remember contextual material from my student years... |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:54 PM "They ARE in the public domain." - Jim Carroll. Err.. No they aren't. Just because we might ignore PRS doesn't mean copyrighted songs are in the public domain when sung in pubs. You might want to define folk through cheating on hard working song writers but I have more respect for the genre. I may not pay Vin Garbutt when I sing his songs but a) he knows I and others do and is comfortable with it and b) in return I buy his albums and go to his concerts when nearby (ok and have been known to put him up for the night.) But I'm still in breach technically of copyright. Copyright allows people to write songs without them being stolen. Many folk songs are written by people scraping a living writing songs. By Jim's reckoning one of my pop songs I wrote many years ago and a friend still performs to this day (it's crap as songs go mind) is a real folk song because I never copyrighted it. And there was me thinking it was about the music not the status. Keep wriggling. Genres. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:51 PM "(I thought I had heard everything)" Obviously not - if you have a definition for something and decide that definition is invalid but don't bother replacing it - you de-define it - can't think of another word for it - can you? Not conviced that what you are describing is folk or traditional otherwise all those Aldermastons, Faslanes and Anti Vietnam War demonstrations I went on were 'folk' - nevrer heard them described that. What goes into0 making up folk is really far more complex than 'a fist in the face of the establishment' or the music industry. That strikes me as part of the industry going Awol from where I'm standing. More power to that. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:19 PM Jim - punk rock ethos / attitude... 😜 There's enough of us.. now in our late 50s to early 60s.. 30 odd years of sticking 2 fingers up to the corporate music industry... For every mega selling commodity "Anarchy in the UK" or "Sheena is a Punkrocker" there were a multitude of unrecorded spotty herberts knocking off songs about themselves and their mates and council estates, and shit jobs and the dole, and who did what to annoy us during the previous week, and taking the piss out the police and the tories, and local upstanding civic dignitaries we all agreed were complete c@nts..etc.. to be sung loud and pissed at weekend ramshackle gigs in local community scout huts, skittle alleys, village halls, wherever we could get away with it.. all around the UK... Most of these songs are long forgotten.. some still linger on in the memories of now respectable aging citizens with mortgages and grand kids.. occasionally meeting up for old times sake and swapping cassettes of long ago gigs and band rehearsals, and DIY home recordings, to now be transferred to CD for posterity.. But that was a valid grass roots ground level form of 'folk music', expression of teenage dissatisfaction and anger with the state and society.... and great effin fun as well... And a big part of that was taking well known pop songs and kicking the shite out of them until they were barely recognisable... they were 'our' versions... |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: keberoxu Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:14 PM De-define. De-define? (I thought I had heard everything) |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,keith price Date: 23 Nov 15 - 01:41 PM Queen couldn't play "Bohemian Rhapsody " live Raggytash what makes you think you and I can do it. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Nov 15 - 01:25 PM "because we can f@ck about with the words and tune of a copyright song as much as we like as long as no one catches us" Still not ours PFR - it remains identifiably somebody's. I can be made a parody, in which case it can be said to be folk, but even that is dodgy - how many legal quibbles have there been about tunes being filched But even if that were the case - that is not what is being argued for here - people are arguing basically that any song they care to name can be folk because they care to call it that. It is a small group of folkies who are attempting tp de-define something 9 haven't come up with a redefinition yet - someday, if we live long enough maybe) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 23 Nov 15 - 01:17 PM " most of our folk songs have lasted centuries and it their progress through time and space that makes them folk." Interesting perspective this. This afternoon I was having my customary pint and Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" was on the radio. A piece of music I've always enjoyed. Will this, in time, become a folk song? I don't know the answer, just posing the question. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 23 Nov 15 - 01:07 PM "...we have no input into its creation and we can't re-create it without paying for the right to do so because it belongs to somebody other than 'the folk' - so how can it evolve or adapt and become somebody else's?" because we can f@ck about with the words and tune of a copyright song as much as we like as long as no one catches us.... 😜 .. and some might even be fortunate enough to record 'their' version and pay off the legal vultures to allow them to air it in public legally.... |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Nov 15 - 12:57 PM "But the 10% I can't support, are aspects of your views on music culture as it is right now," Punk was interesting until it became commodified - don't think it ever represented or communicated much, in the way folk song did/does (if you open your mind to it) It became as disposable as any other type of music with a shelf-life that didn't allow it to become anything really - don't know too much about Indie, so can't comment. As far as I know, these, and rap are claimed from birth by their authors - if they are commercially viable they become fixed. Because numbers of people listen to a music doesn't make it necessarily theirs and it certainly doesn't make it folk. Go to south Wales and you'll find ex mining villages singing opera (someone once conned the Welsh into believing they could sing!!) - does that make Verdi or Bizet folk - don't think so really. One of the characteristics off pop song is that it comes with a sell-by date - most of our folk songs have lasted centuries and it their progress through time and space that makes them folk. We have become passive recipients of our musical culture - any claim we have to it is what we buy - we have no input into its creation and we can't re-create it without paying for the right to do so because it belongs to somebody other than 'the folk' - so how can it evolve or adapt and become somebody else's? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 23 Nov 15 - 12:24 PM MGM, Johnson also said 1,872. Ireland; Scotland The author of these memoirs will remember, that Johnson one day asked him, 'Have you observed the difference between your own country impudence and Scottish impudence?' The answer being in the negative: 'Then I will tell you,' said Johnson. 'The impudence of an Irishman is the impudence of a fly, that buzzes about you, and you put it away, but it returns again, and flutters and teazes you. The impudence of a Scotsman is the impudence of a leech, that fixes and sucks your blood.' nasty racist stuff, the same as the other quote, the best thing you can do Mike is get your lion and go to work on an egg |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 23 Nov 15 - 11:39 AM Heavy industrial strength deja vu setting in... 😜 Jim - As you may recall from previous threads on this subject, I tend to agree with most of what you espouse... let's say 90%.. But the 10% I can't support, are aspects of your views on music culture as it is right now, certainly since the punk/indie years of the late 70s... and maybe the near future of illicit underground 'resistance' internet communities and sharing... ..And your emphasise on the nowadays importance of Folk Clubs.. some of us, maybe a lot of us, never set foot inside them. We find and enjoy 'our' folk music [trad and contemporary] through other means, media, and distribution channels. Like it or not this is now an era of youtube / streamcloud.. etc... So despite all the legalistic/corporate greed odds against it.. I still think it's not impossible for a 'pop song' to evolve, adapt, and become accepted as a 'folk song'... |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Nov 15 - 11:06 AM "Ah. So they have to be in the public domain to be folk songs?" By the way Folk songs don't "have" to be in the public domain - they ARE in the public domain - nothing to do with definition - just on of those things you people never seem to want to come to terms with. Much of the damage, apart from th "not selling what it says on the tin" confusion you people have created is that clubs have to pay PRS and Imro dues to open their doors to the public. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Teribus Date: 23 Nov 15 - 09:55 AM Most certainly judging by what can be heard at the folk clubs I have been to recently. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Nov 15 - 08:27 AM "I'll just move all my MacColl into the part of my shelves labelled pop." Are you really going to walk away from your dishonest cxclaim that I suggested only songs written by MacColl were folk songs - suppose so really - ah well!! Why move them to "pop"? As good as they were, with one exception, they weren't popular with anybody but a small number of people otherwise he'd have been able to set up Blackthorn Records way back in the 40s when he wrote Manchester Rambler. Not only do you have trouble with defining 'tradition' but you seem to be having trouble with 'pop' music now - late night maybe? The same with the others too - though a couple of them were closer to 'pop' in their approach than they were to folk. Any sign of that definition yet - having a problem holding my breath? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 23 Nov 15 - 07:55 AM Ah. So they have to be in the public domain to be folk songs? This gets better. I'll just move all my MacColl into the part of my shelves labelled pop. Ditto Guthrie, Seeger, Paxton, Garbutt, Thompson, Swarbrick etc etc. Like I said. Something in the water. It's alright, no need to get het up. We all know what we mean when we say folk, classical, pop, rock, grunge, punk, Celtic, Oirish, jazz.. We don't need a confused old man to tell us we are thick, if it's all the same to you. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,Punkfolkrocker Date: 23 Nov 15 - 07:19 AM "what is an unreal folk club, or even a surreal folk club?" Now if Banksy started up a folk club along the lines of his Dismaland Bemusement Theme Park...??? 😜 |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 23 Nov 15 - 06:34 AM what is an unreal folk club, or even a surreal folk club? |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:23 AM Glad you enjoyed it, Bonzo. Clive G is a very accomplished musician in the sort of folk-rock singer-songwriter genre which was all the rage when he started up on the scene about 40 years ago, and has, Now He Is Six[ty], acquired a sort of nostalgic charm of its own among those who like[d] that sort of thing*. But I can't quite see how your post is to the purpose of this thread... ≈M≈ *"that is the sort of thing they like" in Abe Lincoln's indispensable formulation, much ripped off since by Miss Jean Brodie et al |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 23 Nov 15 - 04:53 AM Great Clive Gregson gig last Friday at the Ram Club - a real Folk Club!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Nov 15 - 04:18 AM "Major Misunderstanding?" Then all that has been offered to clear that misunderstanding is abuse and disbelief - not an alternative definition certainly - not a single honest response to any of the important points - just empty denial of well documented (not by me) facts, which is more or less how all these arguments end up - "When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less." (Alice through the Looking Glass) We know what happened to Humpty Dumpty - he fell off the wall. Bland unqualified statements like " Quite a few hitherto described as folk songs have become pop songs" - don't hack it - if they are folk songs, why aren't they in the public domain - why can't I go and put them out on an album without payment and permission. This attitude opened the doors of our folk clubs to the P.R.S. and Imro jackals who have made the survival of the peoples's music that much more uncertain. There is a great deal of hypocrisy happening here - shuffling around questions, deliberate distortions of what has been said - "give a definition of folk that precludes anything Ewan MacColl wrote" being a typical example. MacColl made it clear throughout his life that the songs he wrote were not folk songs - I made the point earlier here, yet is is used as an argument and a piece of abuse - not particularly ethical, doncha think? What is it with you people - do you as much lack the imagination to put forward a logical, honest argument as you do to reveal to us the secrets of your new, personal definition? Who are you trying to kid - yourself, it would appear. Sing what you want where you want - nobody would wish to stop you - but don't try to justify the damage you have done to the music you appear to neither like in the form it was passed on, nor understand. How about telling us what you mean by folk, why and who agrees with you? - you appear not to have a consensus of the meaning of the words Folk and Tradition to explain it fully other than your 'Humpty Dumpty' one. C'mon - give us a real argument instead of all these somewhat distasteful attempts to bully and bluff. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Nov 15 - 04:04 AM Johnson was merely teasing Boswell, can't you see, Dick? Boswell was his dearest friend and constant companion -- and a Scotsman himself, with whom he went on an extended tour of the Hebrides; so Johnson was taking the piss out of him as close friends do to one another. You're surely not really so thick as to have missed that essential point -- assuming you to have read Boswell's great biography, and are not merely making unwarranted assumptions from a position of {genuine and literal} ignorance of your own; which I fear is what you are making it sound perilously close to. Best regards as ever — ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 23 Nov 15 - 03:13 AM Anyone else here read Viz? Which of our lot reminds you most of Major Misunderstanding? Lots of pop songs fit any description of folk. Quite a few hitherto described as folk songs have become pop songs. A couple of rocket scientists on here give a definition of folk that precludes anything Ewan MacColl wrote but get hot under the collar if you point out that they call his work folk. In the same breath, they dismiss songs written about similar subjects as not folk. It must be something in Irish water that doesn't agree with British guts. It's the subtext under that obvious statement and old men getting precious over their experience that forms this particular debate. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 23 Nov 15 - 01:23 AM unknowing, equals ignorant, what an idiotic remark to make, dismissing Scotsmen in such a manner Even before the Industrial Revolution, Scots have been at the forefront of innovation and discovery across a wide range of spheres. Johnson was a pompous ignorant windbag. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Nov 15 - 01:11 AM 𝄞♫♫ Come all ye bold taxonomists Of definitions I sing For the genre must be established If your gig is to take wing Or else they will reject you For confusing Jazz with Swing Or Ballad with Calypso — Or Folk with ····· anything ♩♩♩ |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Bert Date: 23 Nov 15 - 12:52 AM All these threads eventually end up arguing semantics. There are songs that are traditional in our family, that the world has forgotten. So don't get bound down with definitions. Decide which you prefer, definitions or songs. If you prefer definitions, go find yourself a semantics forum. If you prefer songs get out there and sing whatever the hell you like. Those that survive may eventually considered to be traditional by philologists, just enjoy what you are singing and share your songs as much as you can. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Nov 15 - 12:43 AM ... and what, Sir, precisely do you mean here by 'ignorant'? You might disagree with the sentiments expressed, but this far too prevalent use of the word 'ignorant' as a generalized pejorative is a deplorable piece of linguistic vulgarity which the great Sam would authoritatively have denounced in a few well-chosen words -- politely beginning, of course, with his customary vocative "Sir". |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: MGM·Lion Date: 22 Nov 15 - 11:38 PM I daresay Johnson's reputation might just about survive your jejune animadversions, Dick. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Larry The Radio Guy Date: 22 Nov 15 - 07:23 PM You too are funny! |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 22 Nov 15 - 06:04 PM "You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables." Samuel Johnson, 1709-84 -- one of the most distinguished of critics. Samuel Johnson was an ignorant fat pig, who amongst his even more ignorant quotes than the one you mentioned was The noblest prospect which a Scotchman ever sees is the high road that leads him to England. Samuel Johnson was an Establishment lackey and a glutton who considered his own unpleasant remarks to be witty |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 22 Nov 15 - 03:29 PM .........."I actually gave up singing when the pressure of both collecting and singing became too much - always believed you shouldn't get up in front of an audience without putting in the preparatory work. You never enjoy a song if you make a hames of it - as I'm sure you well know!" I Agree. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Nov 15 - 02:17 PM "some people were trying to over-define the term." Thank you Mike - saves me the trouble. Child went out of his way to reject modern compositions and went as far as to comment on some which he could only date back to the eighteenth century. "you cannot sing but you persist in passing judgement" By the way Dick - I can and do sing - with a repertoire of something around 300 songs - just sung half a dozen over the week-end in the presence of some of Ireland's finest - still got the buzz!! I actually gave up singing when the pressure of both collecting and singing became too much - always believed you shouldn't get up in front of an audience without putting in the preparatory work. You never enjoy a song if you make a hames of it - as I'm sure you well know! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 22 Nov 15 - 01:53 PM Although Dick and Jim can be ornery disagreeable old folkers at times, they have both earned and deserve much respect for their different accomplishments..... I salute the 2 old warriors... |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: MGM·Lion Date: 22 Nov 15 - 01:36 PM The fact that the designation 'pop' derives as an abbreviation from 'popular' doesn't mean that it is synonymous with all the different usages of 'popular'; it is rather a designation for a particular form of popular music, and not used in the sense that eg Child used it in his title, or Brand in his C19 book of "Popular Antiquities", by which he meant what we would call folk customs. I think that Jim meant that some people were trying to over-define the term. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: GUEST Date: 22 Nov 15 - 01:18 PM Jim Carroll is now trying say that pop isn't derived from popular. No hope for him. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: MGM·Lion Date: 22 Nov 15 - 01:11 PM Dick: The critic or pundit has a different function from the performer on whom he comments. The foolish idea that nobody has a right to be a critic if he can't also perform, or that nobody should pass judgment on any attainment which he can't emulate, is one of the most whiskery of non-sequiturs. "You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables." Samuel Johnson, 1709-84 -- one of the most distinguished of critics. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 22 Nov 15 - 12:46 PM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx6mSRM4JW0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joW8gSpUjiM, how jim carroll can say that one is beeter than the other or better than seeger both are good but cannot be compared, merely illusrates what an inane idiotic sweeping comment jim carroll has made. |
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Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 22 Nov 15 - 12:39 PM "For my money, Sam Larner put more life and understanding into a song than did any other 80 year old I ever heard and both of them were into their 80s when recorded" here is Tom Paley well into his mid eighties when this was recorded, putting skill in to his performing and guitar work href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx6mSRM4JW0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx6mSRM4JW0 PEGGY SEEGER 80, singing and playing as well as everhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCRRe72mwwY Jim stop talking popycock, Sam Larner BETTER? no, not better but different, but not better, it is like comparing apples to oranges, more life than seeger or paley, how ridiculous. |
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