Can a pop song become traditional?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 03:58 AM

As far as I am concerned he was King Cunt, like most of the other Kings Of England,he would have been better employed making sure his fellow countrymen were better looked after instead of getting his followers to take him to paddle around in the tide.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 04:20 AM

"why say only academics should have anything to do with Child ballads?"

You're addressing the wrong Jim, 'Guest'. Be nice to know your name, btw - we're all signing ours!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 05:37 AM

"You're addressing the wrong Jim,"
Thanks for that Brian, saves me the trouble
Far from Child ballads being the domain of academics, some of our finest and most important Child ballads have come from Travellers, mainly Irish and Scots - right upto th latter half of the 20th century.
Hamish Hederson called them as the Muckle (big) songs and MacColl who breathed life back into 137 of them, described them as "the high-watermark of the tradition and compared them to the best of Shakespeare.   
"You have no concept whatsoever of the evolution of traditional song, it's integration into the fashions of the day, "
Neither does anybody else to a great extent as very few people have ever bothered to ask the singers about them to any great extent; but those of us who are interested in them, who actually like them and who have got up off our arses to try and find out about them are entitled to make an educated guess based on the information we manage to glean.
(poor use of the apostrophe there by the way!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 06:55 AM

Well bugger me. Wrong Jim.

Sorry for that.

But not sorry for the other observations, not one bit. You see, language, definition, millions of people and reality tend to concur with me, or at least what I am putting here.

My cookie buggered up. Sorry. Hopefully this one is signed in.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 07:03 AM

> people who don't actually like folk/traditional song but for some inexplicable reason, want to use the title for their own, unrelated songs.

You nailed it, Jim.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 07:16 AM

"You see, language, definition, millions of people and reality tend to concur with me, "
No they don't I'm afraid - the vast majority of people have neither interest in nor knowledge of folk song of any shape, form or description and the tiny few who profess or have an interest can't even even agree with each other - leaving you in a minority of a minority.
Folk song had been de-defined, not redefined
Would those figures were different, but creating smokescreens around what folk song is isn't going to improve things one iota - the Irish experience of what has happened to traditional music here, with many thousands of youngsters flocking to play traditional music because they know what it is and where to find in - very different from the UK where they can't tell the difference between a ballad and a ballet.      
Sorry 'bout that - and for the loss of your cookie - hope she returns to bake you a nice pie before too long
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 08:47 AM

The versions on this thread strengthen the claim that "My Brudda Sylvest'" has indeed become "Traditional":

thread.cfm?threadid=350

In other words, long history, oral (besides printed) tradition, practical anonymity, variant versions.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 08:57 AM

Can S.h.i.t.e ever be called chocolate!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 09:08 AM

'very different from the UK where they can't tell the difference between a ballad and a ballet.'

Jim, on this one you'll be pleased to note you are decidedly wrong.

There are plenty of young people here now who know the provenance of the ballads, the people who sang them, and who are treating the material in a very respectful way. They are even going out collecting themselves and are organising clubs and conferences themselves. I see all of this as very healthy. Many are second and third generation folkies but by no means all of them.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 09:40 AM

Am flattered that I am now considered to be the 'right' Jim- told you I was right (addressed politely to the 'wrong Jim')

Seriously though, I can't take lectures from you Brian about context- I knew personally many of the folk you mentioned- none of them made any distinction as to the category a song fitted into- except when guided by some song collector with his own agenda. And while Tam Lin & Lord Bateman are wonderful tales & of great value, it takes a real talent to communicate orally such material in 2015.
It seems to be a lost art- or maybe I'm spoilt by years of listening to the Stewarts and their ilk. They knew their contexts, and chose their songs accordingly. Surely we all do? At an after- folk club late-night session, surely no- one would launch into a set of 'dreich' ballads?- or maybe some would?

It's obvious that we all have different tastes and can certainly reject a song purely on that basis, but I still can't see why all this pigeon-holing is so important to people!
I note there is a parallel discussion on whether a 'folk' song can become a 'trad' song- equally pointless...

A reviewer once said of a CD of mine- 'Jim only sings the songs he likes'   I think I know what he meant & maybe you can work it out, but there isn't really any alternative to that, is there?
               signed the right Jim

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 11:11 AM

"I can't take lectures from you Brian about context"

I'm not lecturing anyone - just asking what happens to 'context' when a traditional singer finds him- or herself in the dreaded folk club room upstairs with all those Child ballad droners. The singers themselves seem to have been perfectly happy about it - Jeff Wesley is a regular at Northampton Folk Club, Thomas McCarthy used to frequent clubs in London.

"none of them made any distinction as to the category a song fitted into"

Not my fight - you should discuss that one with the other Jim.

"And while Tam Lin & Lord Bateman are wonderful tales & of great value, it takes a real talent to communicate orally such material in 2015. It seems to be a lost art"

Says who? I've heard some great renditions of both those and many others in the last few years, and I've been in some memorable dreich ballad sessions too. Some of the most enthusiastic comments I've ever had for the ballads I sing has been from non-folkies or new-to-it folkies. I wouldn't do them in the local pub, but then again I wouldn't be encouraged to sing anything there unless I took a microphone and played Oasis covers (and my local is unusual in tolerating live music at all). Even the romantic picture of a sozzled 'Lily of Laguna' in the public bar is a museum piece, treasured in the memory like Wicketts Richardson and Cyril Poacher, but gone forever.

The reason I jumped into this thread again is that I really get cross with the attitude (expressed in the original Reg Hall quote) that old ballads should be allowed to die with the likes of the Stewarts and Lizzie Higgins, because later generations of singers are somehow unworthy. No! They are some of the most thrilling and cathartic songs ever made, and will be enjoyed and rediscovered long after 'Lily' has been forgotten.

You sing the songs you like, Jim (I really enjoy your stuff, for what it's worth), but lay off telling me what I should and shouldn't be singing!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 12:13 PM

So the usual Jim reckons people who don't like folk used the term for their own unrelated songs.

Says it all really. I doubt those of us out there in clubs and venues keeping it alive and kicking, fascinated and thrilled by the high profile these days with young musicians could ever be so insular, precious or plain wrong.

Folk is folk. If only folk songs are folk, what name do we give to folk songs?

Quoting dead men had no relevance to alive young people. Being around many years ago is no more relevant than being a teenager. Folk is a living tradition so old views become irrelevant as new views take to the field. New views feed off the old but living folk music is more related to rock than warbling. Just as a starter, hear the many interpretations of known songs by young artistes on the BBC Folk Awards albums. Tell me that folk isn't that? Get your 1/4" reels out and enjoy them Jim. They are part of the provenance of what the rest of the world calls folk.

Cecil Sharpe would have said the same about melodeons playing Morris tunes.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 12:38 PM

A point I endeavour to make every time this for some reason so widespread solecism occurs

Whatever point they may be urging, it is surely reasonable to expect contributors to this forum to be able to spell the name of Cecil Sharp correctly.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 12:58 PM

"Can a pop song become traditional?"

yeah... maybe... possibly.. eventually.....???



I vote for "Wig Wam Bam" and "Little Willy" by the Sweet.

Shame Gary Glitter turned out the way he did and buggered all chances for "I'm the Leader of the Gang (I Am)"... 😜

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 01:21 PM

"Jim, on this one you'll be pleased to note you are decidedly wrong"
I do hope so so Steve, but I've got a little tired with a situation where it is virtually impossible to discuss the subject because of people who seem to be arguing that the existing definition is rubbish, but are unable to offer one of their own.
As usual, this discussion has degenerated into one of taste rather than definition - somehow I regard that as a sign of dislike - If I like it, it's folk/traditional.
I've also become tired of scurrilous attacks on old singers because they don't sound like Peter' Paul and Mary, or, in this case Led Zepplin.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 01:32 PM

Agreed, Jim.
There is nothing wrong with the 54 definition. It describes very well the music we love and respect.

However the word has now taken on a much wider meaning not totally unrelated to 54. I have no problem using qualifiers like 'traditional', 'vernacular' when in the company of the millions who use the term in a wider sense.

If you mixed with people on a daily basis who only knew this wider meaning you would find it very tedious continually having to explain that you only accept the 54 definition and then having to repeat it all.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 02:48 PM

"There is nothing wrong with the 54 definition. "
It certainly needs revisiting.
"However the word has now taken on a much wider meaning not totally unrelated to 54"
If it has, it is only to a miniscle number of people who apparently can't agree among themselves enough to cobble together an explanation of what they men by "folk" other than it means what I want it to mean" - just like Humpty Dumpty.
If it has come to mean something else, what is that something else, and who else agrees with your definition? Language- communication relies on consensus, otherwise we might as well keep it all to ourselves.
Until someone comes up with a new definition, the old one stands, warts and all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 05:30 PM

There's nothing wrong with the 1954 definition if it floats your boat.

It is irrelevant otherwise. I dare say 99.9% of people who enjoy folk music have never heard of it and would have a quiet chuckle if they read it. It describes a view, and just like Jim's dismissal of Child ballads sung for wider audience, based on subjective and arbitrary taste.

Anyway, I saw Robert Plant in concert last year. Looks like an old man to me.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 04:11 AM

"There's nothing wrong with the 1954 definition if it floats your boat.   It is irrelevant otherwise."
Nope - wrong again - until someone comes up with a new one it's what we've got to explain a unique music
You want another - come up with one, persuade others that it is "relevant" and document it - that's what we have had to do.
No definition is "irrelevant" - that's crass.
This music represents the artistic creation of an entire people - centuries of it.
If we are unable to discuss it because a tiny group of folkies can't be arsed to come up with a description for what they do - bit of a shame really, doncha think?
You claim that we are in the minority - wrong again - you have no definable definition, we have, you have no definition, we have, you have no track record, we have - centuries of it, you have no literature, we have - libraries full.
You don't have agreement among yourselves.
It is cultural vandalism to attempt to destroy the identification of the artistic creation of an entire social group/class, in this case the largely agricultural working people.
I grew up being told that people like me never produced anything worthwhile, and we had to go to our betters for our music, our literature, our theatre, paintings...
It turns out that that was not the case; my forbears produced a body of song, music, oral literature that spanned centuries - something to be proud of - not made "irrelevant" at a whim.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 09:29 AM

Nobody's telling you what you ought to sing Brian- we're all capable of deciding for ourselves what we like- you've gained great respect with the choices you've made, so if it works for you......!

Not sure if you WOULD do Oasis songs down your local, but I've always tried, with some exceptions mainly due to reducing attention spans in 2015, to do much the same in my local as I do at folk clubs/festivals.

Living in Ireland probably makes that a bit easier maybe, although as communication is important in music (however defined!), I've never sung any Tommy Armstrong songs in Co Leitrim.

Also I did accept earlier that listening live to source singers may have made me intolerant of anything less..... you probably hear more attempts at 'dreich' ballads than I do, as an infrequent UK visitor, but I'd take some convincing about your assertions in that area, especially when coming from younger folk celebrites (no names, have upset enough people already!)

Am sure you all enjoy discussing the 54 definition, whatever that is, am sorry to say it doesn't interest me- logical really, when I have no interest in pigeon holes, which is the original aim of this thread- to paraphrase that.........' is it folk?'

Can anyone explain why it matters?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 11:13 AM

"Can anyone explain why it matters?"
To repeat
"It is cultural vandalism to attempt to destroy the identification of the artistic creation of an entire social group/class, in this case the largely agricultural working people.
I grew up being told that people like me never produced anything worthwhile, and we had to go to our betters for our music, our literature, our theatre, paintings...
It turns out that that was not the case; my forbears produced a body of song, music, oral literature that spanned centuries - something to be proud of - not made "irrelevant" at a whim."
Not important to you maybe but, as a working class lad who left school (Secondary Modern) having been told after being late for a maths class because a kindly music teacher tried to help me understand the scales, "What do you need that for - do you intend to earn you wages singing in the street" - he went on "All you need to be able to do when you leave here is to tot up your wage packet at the end of the week" - the fact that working people have created a unique musical culture of their own is bloody important to me and worth defending and passing on.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 11:18 AM

Sorry Jim - didn't quite finish.
There is an arrogance among some singers that, because they are not interested in doing anything more than standing up and singing once a week, the rest of us should be as shallow.
We have to put up a great deal of stick because we do.
If it wasn't for the collectors and researchers we wouldn't have folk clubs or anything to sing in them; we'd all still be warbling about pink and blue toothbrushes.
May please some.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 11:19 AM

OK Jim B, truce.

I've shared a few dreich ballads in recent years with Kathy Hobkirk (short clip only but good). You might have come across her at Whitby?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 01:58 PM

I have had a very enjoyable day singing and playing traditional songs and music.
i do not care what Jim Carroll or anyone else on this forum thinks of my singing and playing, or the feckin 1954 definition or any other crap, I sing tradtional and occasional contemporary songs cos i like them, Iwould say that was probably Fred Jordans and most other tradtional singers reason for singing them too

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 02:28 PM

I agree with you Good Soldier Schweik. We go to a folk club for no other reason than we like the sound of the artist's voice, the quality of playing and the songs performed.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 02:56 PM

"or anyone else on this forum thinks of my singing and playing, or the feckin 1954 definition or any other crap, "
Doesn't stop us having an opinion of it Dick
You think 1954 iws crap - fine - you now my opinion of your singing - we're quits.
The problem with all of these arguments us that if I insisted that everybody must share my level of interest in folk or like the same things I like (I never have) there would be howls of "folk police" from the north to the south pole, yet, if I express an interest beyond just singing it or listening to it I am regularly met with much of the abuse present here "finger in ear", "purist", "intransigent", "narrow minded" and much, more more, sometime far worse.
What makes one attitude acceptable and the other not.   
Jim Bainbridge tells this story about Bob Davenport as if it was clever or even acceptable.
"First time I heard Bob Davenport in 1964(he's well known for plain speaking) a floor singer got up and spent fully 3 minutes explaining the song he was about to sing. Bob stood up and shouted from the back- 'Sing the fucking song man, stop talking about it'"
I saw behave like this a few years ago in the Musical Traditions Club, in this case, towards a young woman singer from The Aran Islands who had taken the trouble to give a brief explanation of her Irish language songs.
That is not "plain speaking" - it is downright folk fascism.
Again, why should Bob's behaviour be acceptable and the woman singer's not - Bob's a folkie star, I suppose?
There seems to be a graet deal of double standards afoot in today's folk world.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 03:38 PM

Your opinion of my singing is of no interest to me,Jim.
I have enjoyed performances by Bob Davenport Jim Bainbridge and Brian Peters.
Jim Carroll gives his opinions, has anyone heard him sing?, can he entertain an audience for a couple of hours, as Davenport ,Bainbridge or Peters have done.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 04:09 PM

Here we go, here we go, here we go!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 04:33 PM

Jim has been very helpful in the past in providing me and others with versions of traditional songs, which I appreciate.
But performance of traditional songs is about interpretation and entertainment, it is not just about remembering words, and it should not be forgotten that all the singers I mentioned have done the business many times., and have continued to get re booked, so they do know about performance. I am not sure and have no evidence that Jim Carroll does, although he is clearly knowledgeable about tradtional song.
Jim, for your info,I saw Fred Jordan say exactly the same thing as Davenport to a singer[but without the f word], so Daven port is not alone in having done that. Personally, I would never interrupt anyone, I find background info interesting, although I cannot see the point of telling the story beforehand if you are going to sing it.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brakn
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 05:21 PM

I don't think I'm going to bother reading all this. Ah well life goes on..

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 06:46 PM

"Here we go, here we go, here we go!"
Not as far as I'm concerned Steve - a diversion that should not have happened
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:17 AM

"First time I heard Bob Davenport in 1964(he's well known for plain speaking) a floor singer got up and spent fully 3 minutes explaining the song he was about to sing. Bob stood up and shouted from the back- 'Sing the fucking song man, stop talking about it'"
I saw behave like this a few years ago in the Musical Traditions Club, in this case, towards a young woman singer from The Aran Islands who had taken the trouble to give a brief explanation of her Irish language songs.
Two completely different situations, Which Jim lumps together to have a go about Bob Davenport.
There is no need to explain the story of a song if you are going to sing it, there is a good reason for explaining a song in a different language, NAMELY people who do not understand the language can know what its about.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:54 AM

No need to explain the story itself if the song itself does that. We had one woman who was singing Nancy Whisky and in between each verse explained what was going to happen in the next verse! It was quite frankly a tad annoying though no-one said anything. However surely nothing wrong with explaining the background to a song before singing it? As long as it isn't too long winded and is interesting I think that often enhances it. I don't think there is any excuse for publicly barracking someone though. A wee word in the ear is surely preferable?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 04:19 AM

i agree Allan, however any professional performer knows how to deal with a heckler.
I would have dealt with Bob in ten seconds,as I dealt with Fred Jordan on the other hand the girl from the Aran islands was in a different country explaining her own language, and should have been given more respect, different situations.
Dear old Jim Carroll is a bit like an elephant remembering all these different Davenport offences from as far back as 1964

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 04:32 AM

Jim C.: "That the pop industry was prepared not to include calypso to sell their product is surely the point - commercial enterprises do that sort of thing all the time."

Belafonte is/was considered a folk singer by millions of listeners around the globe and he is hardly a fan of capitalism today. But he is still cranking out those "King of Calypso" reissues and "Greatest Hits" comps.

"I assume you have come up with an alternative of your own - or somebody else's?"

If I'm dealing with Belafonte's music I use Belafonte's. When I move to the largest online database I'll find all "calypso" as a subset of "reggae;" where "Folk" is one third of "Folk/World/Country" and "Trad" appears only as a track credit (ie: neither genre nor style.) Different boats, different long splices. Twas always thus.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 04:33 AM

"If it wasn't for the collectors and researchers we wouldn't have folk clubs or anything to sing in them; we'd all still be warbling about pink and blue toothbrushes. "
true, but as usual not the complete picture, Jim has forgotten the folk club organisers, people like Ted Poole[ 50 years organising] and Vic and Tina Smith,Ron Angel and many more.
without folk club organisers there would be NO folk clubs, then there is the hundreds of quality performers like Bob Davenport[ who did not need crib sheets], most of whom earned a pittance but who generally helped to maintain a good standard.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 04:55 AM

Back to the OP.

A couple of days ago I heard Peter Sarstedt singing "Where Do You Go To My Lovely"

I think that's a Pop Song that could become a Folk Song, if it hasn't already done so.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 05:19 AM

Aargh Raggy, I really hope not!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Colin
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 05:26 AM

I'm reminded by all this above of the lyrics to an old traditional pop song... very appropriate lyrical value I'm sure you'll agree..

Sing sing a song
Make it simple to last the whole night long
Don't worry that its not good enough for anyone else to hear
Just sing
Sing a song


simples

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 06:02 AM

Jim Carroll,

May I ask you a question on this?

Way up above on this thread you mentioned

"don't think there are hard and fast rules on individual songs - there are certainly borderline cases"

May I ask which cases you were referring to?

Thanks in advance

CJ

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 08:00 AM

Personally I think that pretty well everything useful there was to be said regarding the topic was covered three years ago. However, although there's no earthly reason why singers shouldn't ignore pigeon holes and sing whatever they like (as I do), the OP asked a perfectly reasonable and interesting question, and the respondents have done no more than try to answer it according to their own precepts.

"Just sing the bloody song" is all very well, but if that's all that everyone wanted to do there would be no need for Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 09:38 AM

"Just sing the bloody song" is all very well, but if that's all that everyone wanted to do there would be no need for Mudcat."
really, what about all the questions about technique related to instrumental playing, the precise point at which mudcat is in my opinion most useful.
all these questions about what is folk music etc,never seem to reach a conclusion, and are in my opinion a perfect illustration of discussions going round in circles, and GETTING NOWHERE.
    Mudcat is also useful as a digital resource for providing words of songs that is possibly what is it needed for as regards the majority of people interested in songs, providing words of songs.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 11:10 AM

Quite true, Dick, but it is a discussion forum, and the theoretical side has its place too. This and other similar threads do tend to go round in circles, but they've contained some interesting discussion, and certainly made me question my own attitudes. And what about all those queries Malcolm Douglas used to be so good at answering, about song history? You don't need all that to sing the song, it's just interesting for it's own sake.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 12:11 PM

"Quite true, Dick, but it is a discussion forum, "
Totally agree - as you would!!
I doubt if these arguments radically change people'e views, but at the very least, they can add to what we think we know.
The day we can't discuss folksong is the day we close down forums like Mudcat.
C.J. "May I ask which cases you were referring to?"
Sorry meant to respond to this earlier - cant multi task too well nowadays.
It's a bit difficult to deal with this at length and it's bound to get bogged down in argument, but I have in mind songs with a known authorship that have hardly changed, but are claimed by communities as their own
We've come across several songs that fall into this category during our work here on the West Coast of Ireland
Two songs 'Nora Daly' and 'Farewell to Miltown Malbay' written as poems in this town by local poet Tomás Ó hAodha (Thomas Hayes)- (1866-1935.) - sung around by locals extensively, undergone virtually no changes in the century since they were made (except most singers have dropped two verses from the original and one singer sang it to a different tune - and the song remained in this area and didn't move out until the revival, to my knowledge - is it too static to have passed through any process - don't know and wouldn't dream of arguing with anybody who says it is traditional.
Another similar, 'A Stór mo Chroí' (Treasure of my Heart), written by Brian O'Higgins (1882-1963) - the same applies as the above songs - known author, etc.... but totally accepted by local peole as traditional - who am I to argue.
One example of a deliberately written song establishing itself into the oral tradition is known alternatively as 'Patrick Sheehan' or 'The Glens of Aherlow' - written very self-consciously by Irish author and Republican, Charles Kickham (1828-1882) in order to persuade Irishmen not to join the British army.
Kickham said he "wrote it deliberately in the style of the street ballad" in order that it would get maximum circulation.
It is based on actual events and tells of a man whose family were driven from their home by a landlord during the famine - when his parents died at the side of the road he joins the army and is blinded at Sevastopol.
After a time his army pension expires and he is forced to beg on the streets of Dublin
Kickham is said to have made the song having met a veteran of the Crimean War in exactly the circumstance described in his song - it brought about a review of the army pension rules.
I suppose the deciding factor in all these is that Ireland had a strong oral tradition up to quite late which was still capable of absorbing these songs.
They can all be found on the Clare County Library website HERE
As I said - no hard and fast rules but very different from taking different genres of songs and claiming them to be folk.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 12:33 PM

I agree background information is interesting.
Neither do I agree with interrupting people [unless they make a racist comment], however I have been interuppted once by Fred Jordan and once by a folk club organiser, I continued unabashed and was not intimidated by anyone.If any one tries to interrupt me I am ready for them.
I do not need any definition to decide which song I am going to sing, I have no desire to sing pop songs, if i did I would have become a pop singer and made a lot more money, I believe I AM EMPLOYED IN FOLK CLUBS TO SING TRAD SONGS,WHICH I CAN RECOGNISE WITHOUT A DEFINITION.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 01:30 PM

Should have known Mr Carroll would bring Bob D into this, it really is very predictable, isn't it?   Is this part of the evidence for the silencing of all who (like me and Bob) do not subscribe to his canonisation campaign for the Blessed MacColl?

Anyway, it wasn't me who brought it up this time guv...but maybe I'll now expand on exactly what happened that night in 1964.

I was there when Bob uttered the offending words and I think he was dead right (language excepted). The 'singer' was taking advantage of the good nature of the audience at Derek Sarjeant's club in Surbiton to talk down to the people as a bad teacher might to ten-year olds.

He didn't just explain the song's background- I often do that myself, this man told the whole story, verse by verse, rendering the singing of the song pointless!
The audience were restive, but too polite to react, and apart from the f.. word I think Bob was principled, brave and may have made a few folk think & wish THEY had said something!
I wasn't at the Musical Traditions club in London when the other alleged incident occurred, but I DO know that the MT club which continues to thrive, would very likely not exist without Bob Davenport- ask the organisers!
Where is your 'Singers' club' now, Jim?

As for Kathy Hobkirk, Brian, she goes to other places than Whitby- I'm an irregular visitor there, by the way but you must appreciate that my assertions were of their nature, generalisations. Kathy is a fine singer I've known for many years (20 plus?) but she is certainly one of the few exceptions which prove the rule- please no more blue clickys...

Finally, to Jim C, I love what is called folk/traditional/ethnic music (as I define it) & have no wish to damage the 'tradition' as I understand it. I have great respect for 'travellers'- or 'tinkers' as Sheila Stewart used to prefer being called. I'm also extremely grateful for their contribution to the 'tradition'.

The music may have needed protection in the fifties, but such is the huge body of material available to people in the internet age, worrying about whether a song is folk or traditional still seems daft to me, and 61 year old definitions seem even dafter.
I know what it is, as I expect do all readers of this discussion, so let's just get on with the music, wherever it comes from!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 01:49 PM

I know what it is, as I expect do all readers of this discussion, so let's just get on with the music, wherever it comes from!
Well said.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 02:58 PM

"hould have known Mr Carroll would bring Bob D into this, it really is very predictable, isn't it? "
You brought him in earlier Jim with your story about his bad manners two people mentioned him beforehand.
Not really interested in him in one way other the other - just your apparent admiration for his bad behaviour.
Wonder wwhy it's a no-no to criticise him yet take a pop at Ewan, (as is your wont) who has been dead for over half a century   
Your double-standards are showing!
It's never "right" to shout down a fellow singer - take him/her aside and explain your likes and dislikes to him/her by all means - but the way Davenport has been known to behave wouldn't be accepted at a Celtic-Rangers match without someone throwing a bottle.
"I wasn't at the Musical Traditions club in London when the other alleged incident occurred"
It wasn't "alleged" -it happened and was commented on by several members of the audience - why shouldn't it have happened - you've described him behaving in the same way.
"Where is your 'Singers' club' now, Jim?"
The same place a dozen or so clubs Bob was involved in - The Empress of Russia - The Fox - and at least half a dozen others visted when I lived in London.
However - MacColl, Seeger and others of The Singers left a legacy that is still being celebrated - just made two radio programmes to celebrate his 100th
I already knew September Song long before I heard Bob sing it.
"I'm also extremely grateful for their contribution to the 'tradition'. "
Nice to know we agree on something
"Let's just get on with the music"
Fine by me - you get on with it your way and I'll get on with it mine- for me, that means finding out where it came from.
To be honest - I really am not unhappy with what Pat and I have managed to do with the songs and information we have gathered and passed on - and we've managed it without telling people what they should be doing!
Jim Carroll   
.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:07 PM

"please no more blue clickys..."

The clicky was there to share my enthusiasm for Kathy Hobkirk with the rest of Mudcat, not just prove a point. Kathy is indeed particularly good, but by no means the only one who can put over a ballad convincingly.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:09 PM

Thanks Jim.

My own basic take on it is thus - when I'm in a discussion about traditional music and someone takes or uses the expression "folk" to mean acoustic pop, I say "ah I meant traditional folk" and that almost always clears the waters. As an aside, to avoid that particular confusion, I find myself using the expression 'traditional music' just as often as 'folk music'.