Can a pop song become traditional?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:11 PM

"Fine by me - you get on with it your way and I'll get on with it mine- for me, that means finding out where it came from."
Jim Bainbridge has in my opinion more to offer as a performer than you, he is also interested in where the songs came from.
"Not really interested in him in one way other the other - just your apparent admiration for his bad behaviour."
why do you keep going on about him then, I mean ,you brought up some evnt FROM 1964, 58 YEARS AGO.You seem to have a Davenport obsession.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:40 PM

Desi C.: "Can S.h.i.t.e ever be called chocolate!"
It's a matter perspective. Experiment: Unwrap a "Baby Ruth®" candy bar, toss it into your local public swimming pool and observe how people react ;)

Academics, musicians and audiences can't tell the difference until they have a backstory (truth or fiction.) Their individual perspectives on race, nationality, politics, economics, etc. outside of the music then decide the issue for them (accurately or not.)

"The Wreck of the Sloop John B" is a vaudville pop tune masquerading as authentic Bahamian folk; masquerading as American pop-folk.

"Colby;" "Choucoune;" "Don't Ever Love Me" and "Yellow Bird" are four nearly identical Pan-American songs individual listeners will pigeonhole very differently according to their nonmusical attributes.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 06:13 PM

> can't tell the difference

Certainly untrue in the case of "Row, My Bully Boys, Row" on another thread. And many others as well.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 02:10 PM

The incident in Surbiton, Jim, was something I mentioned many moons ago- I really couldn't see what relevance it had to the current exchange of views except as a further contribution to your obsession about Bob D, so I just 'thought I'd clarify what happened!
I admire what MacColl did for the music in the early days, and especially the songs he wrote, but with MANY reservations. There are equally as many anecdotes about MacColl's behaviour, illustrating arrogance rather than verbal violence but let's not get into all that again- it would be nice to hear that you could accept that Bob did ANYTHING for the music, apart from your blinkered hero- worship? Yes, he was a pain at times, but..... also the spirit of the Empress of Russia continues at the MT club, whereas MacColl's sterile 'Singers' club influence seems now to be confined to the media- ie academic rather than active and living.

Thanks Dick, let's get on with the music instead of all this wasted energy- as a FINAL comment on the original point of this thread, it may be a cliché, but a good song is a good song...

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 06:00 PM

"a good song is a good song..."
.,.,.,

What a monumental copout.

Categories matter. Taxonomy is of the essence if any communication is to be effected, any standards maintained.

A good meal is a good meal. But there are times when one wants to eat Pâté de Foie Gras; others when one feels more like a couple of buttered crumpets with bitter orange marmalade; or an Escalope Bordselaise; or a nice plate of Kellogg's Corn Flakes with tinned condensed milk; or soft roes on toast with raspberry vinegar... All food; but not otherwise to be identically categorised.

Likewise with music -- 'songs' -- however 'good'...

Astonished at such emotively and evasively loose argument from the long-established & much respected Mr Bainbridge.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 06:09 PM

To adapt the old limerick --

It would be most odd
If you could not tell God
Save The Weasel from Pop Goes The King.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 11:58 PM

Can a pop can be used to hide a beer at a concert. Inquiring minds want to know

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 12:03 AM

"Can a pop song become traditional?"

I'm still inclined to answer yes....

here

and before that,...

here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77lc1yxBtFE

which was happening at the same time and place as this.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89C_PQ_kuUk.

Then just follow the folk process trail back another 5 decades to the song's pop / rock origins....

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 02:14 AM

Every song revered as traditional, ethnic, social this that and the other is a pop song.

The songs Child & co collected were pop songs.

If fools can be literal about the wide musical genre called folk, they must be consistent and be literal with the genre pop.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:45 AM

"The songs Child & co collected were pop songs. "
Not in the sense that the term is used today they weren't
Child called them 'Popular Ballads' not because they enjoyed great popularity but because he believed they came from and belonged to the PEOPLE - as far as you can get from today's pop songs which belong to somebody and bear a little (c) which identifies them as doing so - today's pop songs, no matter what reason the authors made them, are commodities to be bought and sold - as far away from the traditional repertoire as you can get, which belonged to nobody and were freely passed on.
Pat and I have been given many hundreds of songs by the older singers - we'd have had to sell our house and live in a tent if we'd been collecting pop songs.
Those songs are now archived and accessible for anybody to do what they wish with them - can't think of a single pop song we would be free to do that with - can you?
These songs are part of the social history of ordinary working people, which is why they are important and what distinguishes them from any other art form - THEY ARE OUR SONGS - not John Lennon's and Paul McCartney's, or anybody elses'.      
The only foolishness here is the idea that you can ignore all this and flush an entire genre of songs (the artistic creation of working people) down the pan at a whim and not be bothered enough to come up with an alternative definition for what passes for "folk/tradition.
Jim B
You've heard the urban legends and spiteful stories about MacColl - I knew Ewan for twenty years - I worked with him, I was a recipient of his and Peggy's incredible generosity when I moved to London - they fed me and gave me a bed until I found a job and somewhere to live.
I was part of the workshop they ran for singers who wished to become better singers - once a week in their home for nearly ten years, all while the rest of the folk stars were getting on with their own careers.
I don't "hero worship" Ewan - I admire the work he did for folk song, his ideas on them, the work he and Peggy put in to pass them on, not just in their own singing but in what they collected (*all freely available to interested people - they actually rigged up their home for visitors to stay over and copy their field recordings of Sam Larner, the Stewarts etc (some have finally been made available by Musical Traditions).
Ewan and Peggy have left a massive legacy - of their own singing (which you can take or leave) - their work, their ideas, the hundreds of songs they made (both were insistent that what they wrote weren't 'folk songs' by the way).
I never found the Singers Club sterile, but there again, I only went to the place for nearly every week for about twenty years, so what the hell do I know?
You want to rely on malicious gossip - feel free, I'll stick with personal experience, if its all the same with you.
In all the twenty years I knew Ewan I never once saw him shout anybody down in public, nor did I ever see him rude to people, certainly not in a crowded folk club.
Arrogant - maybe (I never found him so) - confident in his opinions, certainly, but having had a close look at those ideas over a long time and put them to the test in our work with traditional singers, I've come to the conclusion that he had a right to be - he was prepared stick his neck out and put those opinions up to be measured - happy to live with that anytime.
I don't particularly like Bob Davenport's singing, but that's my personal taste, but I deplore his arrogant and ill mannered attitude to his fellow performers.
I don't mind self confidence in people who merit it - it's the talentless ones who think they're god's gift who are the pain in the arse - never got that with Ewan and Peggy (we're still in touch with Peggy - still as generous and forthcoming as she always was) - plenty of others who don't live up to their own image of themselves.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 09:20 AM

Please sir, I want some songs for accountants, solicitors, barristers and other professional people!!!

Most Gregson Collister songs are now traditional songs.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 12:48 PM

"I never found the Singers Club sterile, but there again, I only went to the place for nearly every week for about twenty years, so what the hell do I know?"
If i were to make a judgement from that comment, I would say you know sweet f a, since when has going to a place many times been any criteria for making an objective judgement?.
you obviously liked the place, so   we should not be surprised that you did not find it sterile, however the Singers Club no longer exists. Islington Folk club and Musical traditions two clubs that Bob Davenport was involved with are still going., this is not opinion but FACT.
"I don't "hero worship" Ewan"
It is my opinion that you do.
I agree with you, he was a fine songwriter and a polished performer and an excellent presenter of his material, I also think his idea of using vocal warm up exercises was very good.
I think the UK Folk revival is indebted to the early song carriers such as Alex Campbell, Davenport, MacColl. Lloyd, Carthy.
I did find him arrogant on at least one occasion, on the other hand I could relate incidents that showed another side of his charcter , his helpfulness and kindness.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: keberoxu
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 01:25 PM

Am I gonna be sorry I jumped in here? Probably, but never mind. My music history studies from university days come in handy, here, for an example of....no, not this circular discussion....but the OP question, can a pop song become traditional? I guess the way I understand the question is, can a pop song become something else altogether?

Oh. That IS a different question, isn't it.

Anyway, here's my example.

Back in the days of the Minnesangers....this is before the Renaissance if I recall my music history properly. Minnesangers sang about "minne," which is not a lady's name, but a class of romantic love, devotion, lady on a pedestal, unnattainable object of desire, and so on. The lyrics were not limited to, but often appeared in, Mittel-Hoch-Deutsch, that is, German from before modern German. There was this one lament with a memorable tune. The words, rendered in present-day German, began:

"Mein G'mueth ist mir verwirren
Fuer eine Jungfrau zart...."

which says something like, My mental equilibrium is in tatters because of a fair young maid....

Fast-forward to the Reformation, Martin Luther, the Gutenberg Bible, and all those lovely Chorale-Hymns, which in time, Johann Sebastian Bach would harmonize. If Bach really liked the tune and the lyric, it would make its way into one of his choral compositions. Say, a cantata, like Christ Lag In Todesbanden.

As for "Mein G'mueth etc etc," that song of romance had long since lost its romance lyric, and its tune now had a lyric meditating on Good Friday; and in its new incarnation it was a chorale-hymn, solidly within the bosom of the church hymnal.

Now, the former love-song started with the words,

"O, Haupt voll Blut und Wunden...."

which tune Bach would exploit for his St. Matthew Passion.

Flash-forward to the Digital Tradition at the Mudcat Cafe, which has a lyric written by Paul Simon. His title is American Tune. Which always cracks me up, since the tune is recognizably:

"Mein G'mueth ist mir verwirren...."
or,
"O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden...."
known to us English-speakers as,
"O Sacred Head Now Wounded...."



....but don't mind me. You all go on circling each other verbally. Sorry, gentlemen, but you fellows do remind me of vultures in the air overhead.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 02:37 PM

They remind me of aging respected warriors sat in a gentlemen's club heatedly debating their old regiments,
and Generals they have served and fought under...

"What the battles of 54 and 64.. MacColl's boys.. the Singers .. we were in the frontline.. face to face with the enemy..
Davenport and your sorry lot.. Bah... didn't even know which side you were fighting on...!!!???...
harumph..... steward 2 more ports for my good self and my old adversary the Colonel.. "

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:04 PM

It does seem a bit like that PFR. I feel that I am from a completely different world and to tell you the truth I'd never even heard of Davenport anyway! Putting aside Scottish folk songs (or as I thought of them in my youth - Corries songs) I actually was introduced to older folk songs via pop music. My mate was playing an old compilation cassette his older brother had made up. I think just after Annie Lennox singing "Wild Among The Flowers" something came on which made me take notice. It was Dylan singing "Blowin In The Wind" and from that day I became a Dylan fan. I then discovered many of his songs were based on older folk songs so I started looking these out. Fair enough trad songs are a distinct thing but I feel there is a continuum between these trad songs, more modern folk songs (ie Annie Laurie to Caledonia etc) and even some pop music be in folk type pop or folk rock etc.

Also this might infuriate some people but sorry it is my opinion. Dylan never had a great voice but in his younger days he could ctually sing. Good example is the Desire album. His voice is completely shot now. Can't listen to his recent stuff. I feel the same about some of the clips of some of the source singers. People raving about old old guys with, certainly by then, less than impressive singing voices. Seemed to be they were at least by then being lauded simply for knowing the songs rather than actual delivery. I know some will suggest that is heresy.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:20 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhfZ_eOow Bob Davenport
can Jim Carroll sing like that, in the meantime it would be great if Carroll would desist

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:34 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhfZ_eOoww

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:36 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhfZ_eOoww

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:37 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhfZ_eOoww

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 06:38 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uttQbH2FuA

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 06:41 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IGfnZgZAXE

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 02:02 AM

Thanks for the link. Daveport does have a really good voice! Wasn't meaning to suggest otherwise just commented that the argument is like from a closed shop or other world to some of us and that others maybe came to folk music through different directions. Or maybe I should say "folk type music" so as not to offend some :-)

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 03:33 AM

Iam not offended ,but found clips so you could hear him, Bob must be 80 and still has a powerful voice

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 04:40 AM

"They remind me of aging respected warriors sat in a gentlemen's club heatedly debating their old regiments, "
Wonder why - maybe to some people traditional music has no more relevance than the Battle of Waterloo - not to me, I'm afraid - it is as important and as entertaining an anything ever created and well worth arguing over
If it is irrelevant, why bother with forums like these
Thousands of youngsters in Ireland are coming to traditional music for the first time and some of them are playing it as well as it has ever been played - maybe we should tell them they are wasting their time and should expend their talents on all this new stuff!
Some of us here seem to be still hooked on personal taste - ah well!!
For my money, Sam Larner put more life and understanding into a song than did any other 80 year old I ever heard and both of them were into their 80s when recorded.
That's my preference for this thread
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 05:14 AM

"can Jim Carroll sing like that, in the meantime it would be great if Carroll would desist"
I really wasn't going to bother with this inanity as I have no doubt, should anybody bother I have no doubt it would lead to the destruction of this discussion - but I'm curious!
When I came into the music back in the early sixties, one of the first things that struck me was the democracy of the situation.
No matter whet your abilities as a singer, your knowledge or the length of time you'd been around,m your opinions were treated with complete respect.
If you asked a question or made a suggestion it was responded to with politeness and genuine interest - I can never remember having been told - by anybody - to go away and come back when I was a better singer oor had been around for longer.
Is it really the case nowadays that it is only the folkie superstars whose opinions are worth consideration?
Has the democracy gone down the pan with much of our traditional music?
Would appreciate an answer from someone else other than you Dick - I know yours already, you've made it clear several times.   
As I say, not intending to develop this into a tit-fot-tat; just curious.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 07:10 AM

If i want to know about the fine art of pargetting, I ask someone who can show me that he can do it, you cannot sing but you persist in passing judgement, as far as i an concerned that means i have no reason to value your opinion, neither would I value the opinion of Britney Spears, Britney Spears is entitled to an opinion, but she cannot sing, so why should i take any notice of her
as the Actress said to the bishop its not length of time that matters but what you can do in that length of time, show us your singing and if its any good ,I might value your opinion.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 07:39 AM

You should realise Mr Carroll that entering into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent is futile

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 07:48 AM

"You should realise Mr Carroll that entering into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent is futile"
Point taken
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 11:27 AM

I have rarely heard anything so dreadful as Bob Davenport singing!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 12:39 PM

"For my money, Sam Larner put more life and understanding into a song than did any other 80 year old I ever heard and both of them were into their 80s when recorded"
here is Tom Paley well into his mid eighties when this was recorded, putting skill in to his performing and guitar work href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx6mSRM4JW0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx6mSRM4JW0
PEGGY SEEGER 80, singing and playing as well as everhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCRRe72mwwY
Jim stop talking popycock, Sam Larner BETTER? no, not better but different, but not better, it is like comparing apples to oranges, more life than seeger or paley, how ridiculous.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 12:46 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx6mSRM4JW0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joW8gSpUjiM, how jim carroll can say that one is beeter than the other or better than seeger both are good but cannot be compared, merely illusrates what an inane idiotic sweeping comment jim carroll has made.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 01:11 PM

Dick: The critic or pundit has a different function from the performer on whom he comments. The foolish idea that nobody has a right to be a critic if he can't also perform, or that nobody should pass judgment on any attainment which he can't emulate, is one of the most whiskery of non-sequiturs.

"You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables."
Samuel Johnson, 1709-84 -- one of the most distinguished of critics.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 01:18 PM

Jim Carroll is now trying say that pop isn't derived from popular.

No hope for him.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 01:36 PM

The fact that the designation 'pop' derives as an abbreviation from 'popular' doesn't mean that it is synonymous with all the different usages of 'popular'; it is rather a designation for a particular form of popular music, and not used in the sense that eg Child used it in his title, or Brand in his C19 book of "Popular Antiquities", by which he meant what we would call folk customs. I think that Jim meant that some people were trying to over-define the term.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 01:53 PM

Although Dick and Jim can be ornery disagreeable old folkers at times,
they have both earned and deserve much respect for their different accomplishments.....

I salute the 2 old warriors...

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 02:17 PM

"some people were trying to over-define the term."
Thank you Mike - saves me the trouble.
Child went out of his way to reject modern compositions and went as far as to comment on some which he could only date back to the eighteenth century.
"you cannot sing but you persist in passing judgement"
By the way Dick - I can and do sing - with a repertoire of something around 300 songs - just sung half a dozen over the week-end in the presence of some of Ireland's finest - still got the buzz!!
I actually gave up singing when the pressure of both collecting and singing became too much - always believed you shouldn't get up in front of an audience without putting in the preparatory work.
You never enjoy a song if you make a hames of it - as I'm sure you well know!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 03:29 PM

.........."I actually gave up singing when the pressure of both collecting and singing became too much - always believed you shouldn't get up in front of an audience without putting in the preparatory work.
You never enjoy a song if you make a hames of it - as I'm sure you well know!"
I Agree.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 06:04 PM

"You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables."
Samuel Johnson, 1709-84 -- one of the most distinguished of critics. Samuel Johnson was an ignorant fat pig, who amongst his even more ignorant quotes than the one you mentioned was
The noblest prospect which a Scotchman ever sees is the high road that leads him to England.
Samuel Johnson was an Establishment lackey and a glutton who considered his own unpleasant remarks to be witty

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 07:23 PM

You too are funny!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 11:38 PM

I daresay Johnson's reputation might just about survive your jejune animadversions, Dick.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 12:43 AM

... and what, Sir, precisely do you mean here by 'ignorant'? You might disagree with the sentiments expressed, but this far too prevalent use of the word 'ignorant' as a generalized pejorative is a deplorable piece of linguistic vulgarity which the great Sam would authoritatively have denounced in a few well-chosen words -- politely beginning, of course, with his customary vocative "Sir".

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 12:52 AM

All these threads eventually end up arguing semantics.

There are songs that are traditional in our family, that the world has forgotten.

So don't get bound down with definitions. Decide which you prefer, definitions or songs. If you prefer definitions, go find yourself a semantics forum. If you prefer songs get out there and sing whatever the hell you like. Those that survive may eventually considered to be traditional by philologists, just enjoy what you are singing and share your songs as much as you can.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 01:11 AM

𝄞♫♫
Come all ye bold taxonomists
Of definitions I sing
For the genre must be established
If your gig is to take wing
Or else they will reject you
For confusing Jazz with Swing
Or Ballad with Calypso —
Or Folk with ····· anything ♩♩♩

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 01:23 AM

unknowing, equals ignorant, what an idiotic remark to make, dismissing Scotsmen in such a manner
Even before the Industrial Revolution, Scots have been at the forefront of innovation and discovery across a wide range of spheres.
Johnson was a pompous ignorant windbag.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 03:13 AM

Anyone else here read Viz?

Which of our lot reminds you most of Major Misunderstanding?

Lots of pop songs fit any description of folk. Quite a few hitherto described as folk songs have become pop songs. A couple of rocket scientists on here give a definition of folk that precludes anything Ewan MacColl wrote but get hot under the collar if you point out that they call his work folk. In the same breath, they dismiss songs written about similar subjects as not folk. It must be something in Irish water that doesn't agree with British guts.

It's the subtext under that obvious statement and old men getting precious over their experience that forms this particular debate.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 04:04 AM

Johnson was merely teasing Boswell, can't you see, Dick? Boswell was his dearest friend and constant companion -- and a Scotsman himself, with whom he went on an extended tour of the Hebrides; so Johnson was taking the piss out of him as close friends do to one another. You're surely not really so thick as to have missed that essential point -- assuming you to have read Boswell's great biography, and are not merely making unwarranted assumptions from a position of {genuine and literal} ignorance of your own; which I fear is what you are making it sound perilously close to.

Best regards as ever —

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 04:18 AM

"Major Misunderstanding?"
Then all that has been offered to clear that misunderstanding is abuse and disbelief - not an alternative definition certainly - not a single honest response to any of the important points - just empty denial of well documented (not by me) facts, which is more or less how all these arguments end up - "When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
(Alice through the Looking Glass)
We know what happened to Humpty Dumpty - he fell off the wall.
Bland unqualified statements like " Quite a few hitherto described as folk songs have become pop songs" - don't hack it - if they are folk songs, why aren't they in the public domain - why can't I go and put them out on an album without payment and permission.
This attitude opened the doors of our folk clubs to the P.R.S. and Imro jackals who have made the survival of the peoples's music that much more uncertain.
There is a great deal of hypocrisy happening here - shuffling around questions, deliberate distortions of what has been said -
"give a definition of folk that precludes anything Ewan MacColl wrote" being a typical example.
MacColl made it clear throughout his life that the songs he wrote were not folk songs - I made the point earlier here, yet is is used as an argument and a piece of abuse - not particularly ethical, doncha think?
What is it with you people - do you as much lack the imagination to put forward a logical, honest argument as you do to reveal to us the secrets of your new, personal definition?
Who are you trying to kid - yourself, it would appear.
Sing what you want where you want - nobody would wish to stop you - but don't try to justify the damage you have done to the music you appear to neither like in the form it was passed on, nor understand.
How about telling us what you mean by folk, why and who agrees with you? - you appear not to have a consensus of the meaning of the words Folk and Tradition to explain it fully other than your 'Humpty Dumpty' one.
C'mon - give us a real argument instead of all these somewhat distasteful attempts to bully and bluff.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 04:53 AM

Great Clive Gregson gig last Friday at the Ram Club - a real Folk Club!!!!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:23 AM

Glad you enjoyed it, Bonzo. Clive G is a very accomplished musician in the sort of folk-rock singer-songwriter genre which was all the rage when he started up on the scene about 40 years ago, and has, Now He Is Six[ty], acquired a sort of nostalgic charm of its own among those who like[d] that sort of thing*.

But I can't quite see how your post is to the purpose of this thread...

≈M≈


*"that is the sort of thing they like" in Abe Lincoln's indispensable formulation, much ripped off since by Miss Jean Brodie et al

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 06:34 AM

what is an unreal folk club, or even a surreal folk club?