Whitby 2012

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 06:40 AM

I started this thread to share my great experiences at Whitby this year with others and for them to do likewise with me. I've just returned from a week's holiday to find it completely hi-jacked . Surely one comment and response would have been adequate...or if more was required someone should have started a new thread.   Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion.....but thread creep/drift on this scale is not pleasant or desirable
geoff t

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Betsy
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 08:23 PM

Thanks Joe , that was as fair and reasonble a response that I could wish.
It has only entered into my head the concern that how many people who were NOT ACTUALLY at this " particular performance " - are prolonging this particular "debate".

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:41 PM

The Festival programme always makes it clear what the policy regarding busking is in the following terms:

"Indiscriminate busking is frowned upon (not just by us). So, if you want to perform in the streets - and help the Festival- PLEASE call at the Festival office to get clearance and advice on appropriate spots">

So it's clearly not something to do on the spur of the moment or without official clearance, unlike Sidmouth.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Acorn4
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 05:10 PM

Just out of interest, what is actually the policy of the local authorities on busking at Whitby.

We only saw about 3 or 4 buskers in the three days we were there. This compares to Sidmouth where all the streets are full of buskers most of the time, and we'd always thought that perhaps it wasn't really allowed at Whitby - this is just for info.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 04:44 PM

that should read the original sing around session in the cutty sark, there were music sessions in the elsinore and spontaneous music sessions in the plough and out the back of the plough , that was before sam smiths changed their music policy

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 04:41 PM

everyone who organises a festival should be thanked it involves a hell of a lot of work, as does organising a club.
my experiences of the whitby week have always been good the local people seem to make the festival goers welcome, ther have been sessions in different pubs , in fact myself and the Wilsons and others started the original session in the pub that was then called the cutty sark, not far from the station.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 04:31 PM

a performer should not judged by some persons misconceived and uniformed perception that he is a control freak, yes uniformed, you cannot make a decision about someone or their family if you do not know them.
a performer is judged by their total performance of their music, if you went to a classical concert you judge the evening on the performance of the music,if you got a watersons concert in an arts centre, or a ralph mctell concert in an arts centre you listen to the songs and make your judgement on the music, why should the Doyle family be treated any difFerntly to any other performer putting on a show, the reality is that in any concert involving more than one person, someone has to be the leader and make the decisions about the set list the introductions etc, lets look at The Chieftains does anyone call Paddy Moloney a control freak, but he is the organiser[as I understand it].
as a professional performer[ on a much smaller scale than the Chieftains], I understand this, I do not think Jack does, he generally plays his music [ as I understand it] in a more informal setting. in any group there has to be a leader, that does not make them a control freak or an exploiter of children.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 04:13 PM

GSS-
"It is not a side issue, BUT SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT. that performers are judged on their music, not whether some person who does not know them perceives them "
Not so. A performer is judged by the total performance. What you said may be true of recordings, but not of live performances.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Spectacled Warbler
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 03:46 PM

I had an absolutely fantastic time at Whitby. 'Icebound' was superb, hours and hours of excellent English music sessions, old time American, melodeon net session, everybody friendly and lots of laughs. Roll on 2013!   And THANKS to everybody who helped to organise it.   My life would be sadder without you.

Joy

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 01:06 PM

if there is no mention of the good music at the festival that is the fault of the posters.
Jeri,
I am discussing an attack on a performer, and that attack was nothing to do with their music but some perceived idea which was quite insulting that the performer was a patriarchal control freak, if posters   thought a little more carefully before they slagged off performers this thread would not have developed how it has,   
The only thing I have attacked about Jack was his post, plus a previous post about RoyHarris.
It is not a side issue, BUT SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT. that performers are judged on their music, not whether some person who does not know them perceives them to be a control freak, or whether some person decides not to book someone at their club because they are a trans sexual or gay or is a traveller, or black, or brown, or because they are a muslim or something not related to their music, are you receiving me, Jeri?

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: selby
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 12:25 PM

Once again we have a situation where a little spat his kicked off that has nothing to do with the festival.
GSS if I was new to folk music and interested in going to a festival what opinion do I get of Whitby, no mention of the brilliant artists, Ceilidh's, sessions workshops dance displays etc.
I may think twice about going and then that would be a loss to all thats why in my opinion that this thread should be allowed to die.
Keith

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack's Rake
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 12:05 PM

From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM

"jacks rake, please i must make it clear I did not say this:
I see from Jack Campin's home page that he plays those highly traditional instruments the recorder, washboard and clarinet, and has a subsidiary page devoted to his cats. I certainly wouldn't want to spend more than a micro-second in his company. YOUR STATEMENT COULD BE INTERPRETED THAT IDID."

Only by a dimwit. I preceded it with Sturgeon's username and time stamp, though I forgot to put some quotes around it ... This site is quite primitive, isn't it?

I don't see any reason that the fact my post was after one of yours would lead any non-thicko to assume you'd said that when you clearly didn't.

Sorry, anyhow.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Mick Tems
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 10:34 AM

Folkwales Online Magazine has just been published, with Mike Greenwood's column, Dancewales, carrying pictures of Whitby Festival and Welsh team Dawnswyr Aberesc - thanks, Bill Rich!

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 10:25 AM

It's not Jack's statement that caused this, it was the inability of some fuckwits to get past it and discuss the music or even Whitby. It could have sparked a discussion of Irish Traveler music. Instead, the festival and music were not so important to those people as trying to get a fight going by attacking Jack, who, despite his directness, was DISCUSSING MUSIC.

I closed this once. Someone else re-opened it. I never intended it stay closed but temporary closure might give some folks a chance to cool off and evaluate whether what they had to say was worth changing the thread into yet another flame war. But I forgot how desperately tight a grasp some people here can have on perceived wrongs.

This is how this thread started:

"Subject: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,old git - PM
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 09:03 AM

Back from a great week at Whitby...songs,beer and friends old and new...priceless! Thanks to everybody who gave "Icebound" such a great reception and sorry to all those who couldn't get in!
I also enjoyed the rest of the week ,whether performing, MCing , running singarounds or just joining in impromptu sessions. Where did the week go? Here's to next year!
Oh..and congrats to Jim and Graeme's maritime sessions for raising such a large amount for the Whitby Lifeboat. £3113!!!
geoff t

I think it's a shame that some people should think their own offendedness is more important that talking about this festival. If you want to start a fight, at least have the decency to take it out of a perfectly good discussion and start your OWN thread.

This is my first and last comment in this thread.
You have a choice: whether to continue barking and growling about side issues or let the world know how great this festival was/is and how much fun you had/have there.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 10:17 AM

I stayed away from this thread for a while as I could see where it was Going. I was correct in my assumption, so I will stay a way a little longer and try again later, bye bye.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM

jacks rake, please i must make it clear I did not say this:
I see from Jack Campin's home page that he plays those highly traditional instruments the recorder, washboard and clarinet, and has a subsidiary page devoted to his cats. I certainly wouldn't want to spend more than a micro-second in his company. YOUR STATEMENT COULD BE INTERPRETED THAT IDID.
neither did i call him a racist,I criticised his criticism which was nothing to do with the music, and which was completely out of order

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack's Rake
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:57 AM

From: GUEST,sturgeon - PM
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:49 PM

I see from Jack Campin's home page that he plays those highly traditional instruments the recorder, washboard and clarinet, and has a subsidiary page devoted to his cats. I certainly wouldn't want to spend more than a micro-second in his company.

Oh come on now - what has any of that to do with the discussion?

I met some of the Doyles at Whitby and they seemed perfectly friendly. I also heard (I think) Simon issuing, from the back of the Met theatre, a very quiet heckle at a song introduction by Gavin Davenport which made me smile but could have caused a similar argument.

I've met Jack on a number of occasions and always found his company very pleasing. I've also been on the wrong side of his e-tongue many years ago on Usenet and, whilst at the time I was youthfully livid, I know see that that is his communication style - no more, no less.

The whole disagreement is, in my view, caused by imperfect communication and, perhaps, a little insensitivity on both sides.

None of it, however, justifies an attempted character assasination on the basis of a musician playing, amongst many other instruments, a recorder and liking cats.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:46 AM

why are some people intent on closing discussion? What harm does this discussion do to Whitby festival?
one person made a comment about a performer not based on their music,   the majority of people clearly had a good time at Whitby, The Doyles were out and about in the town giving the town extra atmosphere.
if the only criticism of a festival is one set of performers which was not based on their music,that sounds like it was a good festival.
why are people trying to suppress discussion? if you are worried about Whitbys reputation come on this thread and say all the good things about the festival.
I have always enjoyed the festival and have been many times when efddss ran it, and even when Malcolm ran it, its always been good, partly down to organisation and partly because it is an ideal venue for a festival.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 03:17 AM

Hi, Pete -

My position at Mudcat has changed, and I don't handle the "negative stuff" anymore. I pass complaints on to the Moderation Team, which has had this thread under observation and discussion for quite some time. Of course, there's no reason why somebody can't start a new thread, and leave the combatants to duke it out here. Call the new one "Whitby 2012 - your experiences," or something similar that differentiates it from the problem thread. It's hard for the Moderation Team to shut down a thread like the current one, because it is a legitimate discussion, albeit at times an unpleasant one.

-Joe Offer, Mudcat Archivist-

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Betsy
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 07:48 PM

The Doyles have closed their comments , so we should really all respect their intent, no matter how much we we would all like to get our own twopenny-worth. The thread tille is "Whitby 2012" and surely what has occurred in this thread is not what people want to read.Why don't we ask the Moderator / Joe Offer ? to close this one off - and if someone wishes to start new threads i.e. My Whitby 2012 or a separate Thread "The Doyles" and then maybe we can all get back to opening Mudact threads- which mean what they say.
Good Luck all Betsy

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 02:08 PM

Of Course the festival is very good, I first went there in 1974, and have been booked to perform at the festival a number of times.
The Doyle Family have a positive approach getting out and playing music on the streets letting folk visitors know that a festival is going on, adding atmosphere to the town, they should be congratulated, well done The Doyles

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 12:57 PM

Simon has called a halt to all this and several people have expressed the wish to end this discussion as being of benefit to no-one and I agree. Whitby was and is always fantastic, something for everyone, hundreds of events covering things that can only be done at a weeklong festival. It is vital that we all support this. Too many similar festivals in the area are going under for various reasons.

A massive thankyou to all of the organisers and supporters.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 01:27 AM

when I read about the Doyle family busking in Whitby, I thought what a positive thing to do, it reminds non folk visitors that there is a Folk Festival, it adds to the atmosphere they should be praised for this and for doing extra unscheduled playing.
John, he does not, neither does anyone else have a right to make libellous remarks[patriarchal control freakery], criticisms should be about music, they should not be based on uninformed assumptions, or whether someone is gay or a transsexual or any other non musical thing, there is freedom of speech there is also a law of libel.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:33 PM

If the person who started the thread wants to change the title and start a new Whitby thread, you could do that, and leave the musical slug-fest behind here. But what would this one be called? Plus, the momentum for posting may be past.

I believe I owe Jack Campin an apology - I edited my remarks above to remove the characterization I'd picked up from another writer. Since I don't know any of the parties and was simply stepping in to suggest toning down some of the remarks, it didn't help to push that loaded description further along down the thread.

SRS

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: selby
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 06:19 PM

Whilst everyone is entitled to his or her view this thread sits under Whitby 2012 in my opinion this is not helping Whitby 2013 . I also believe it is good to have healthy discussion this discussion is not helping Mudcat and UK folk music. The discussion has left good discussion and become to personal .
I watched the two young lads piping near the bridge my opinion when i saw them in the future they will be awesome they also have charm and a deep interest in their type of music. anyone with boys the age of these two will know if lads of this age don't want to do it they will pay lip service and then do their own thing so follow on comments are just mischief. The sub title of Whitby is traditional folk festival their are acts appearing I do not like and their acts I like who others do not but I use my feet not my mouth as I am sure many others do
I have attended Whitby folk festival for many years and feel what is happening here is not beneficial to something I feel strongly about.
Keith

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:29 PM

As I said Dick, it's his personal view, and he has a right to express it. You and I have the same right, to disagree with his point of view, and/or his means of expressing it.
Nuff sed.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: selby
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:52 PM

Does anyone else apart from me that this is not helpful to anyone?
Keith

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:47 PM

when have I am tried to to suppress him,I do not have the poweron this forum or anywhere else to do that
I am criticising his criticisms which were not based on their music, he is out of order when he calls someone a control freak, when he does not know them personally, criticisms of musical performers should be based on their music not on some fantasy that someone is a control freak who may be exploiting his family.
this is the problem with a good proportion of reviewers on the folk scene, they talk crap, this is just another example, he called them duds, and then says it was not their music he disliked so much as the patriarchal control freakery.his words..It wasn't Simon Doyle's music I disliked so much as the posing and the patriarchal control-freakery.
by the way guest wyrdofalr, i have not called anyone racist.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:26 PM

All personal and subjective Dick. The man's entitled to his viewpoint, same as you or I. You are welcome to disagree with his views, or his way of expressing them.
What you are not welcome to do is suppress him, that's censorship.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:23 PM

Good Soldier Schweik, yeah, he did call them "duds". A bit harsh perhaps. That said, I'm still curious as to how this, or anything else he said here, amounts to 'racism'. That's not been really explained at all.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:16 PM

Yes, I know. Even if he was disappointed by Doyle family performances he shouldn't have made comments against them of a more personal nature.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:48 PM

That is not the point, he made a criticism not based on the performers music and called them duds...fact

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:23 PM

I've actually met Jack Campin. A few years ago I made quite a few trips to Edinburgh to go to workshops at the Scottish Storytelling Centre. I went along to Sandy Bell's a few times; I only had an egg shaker but I still had a whale of a time. In the interests of fairness I will say that Jack Campin was friendly and helpful.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:57 PM

there is a distinct style amongst irish travellers, Iam not a great expert on this subject, but I do know a distinct style of tenor banjo playing using a thimble is one example, john keenan was an example,
I understand there is a style of uillean piping, examples of this were johnny doran, and more latterly, paddy keenan, i think it is called the open style, as against the closed style as used by liam o flynn.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:49 PM

I see from Jack Campin's home page that he plays those highly traditional instruments the recorder, washboard and clarinet, and has a subsidiary page devoted to his cats. I certainly wouldn't want to spend more than a micro-second in his company.

http://www.campin.me.uk/MusicPhotos/Bells/sandy-bells1.jpg

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:25 PM

Oops! Typo in last post. Should have been "your family."

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:18 PM

Enjoy your concert in the States! What an education for our family! When you come back perhaps you could tell us about it? In a different thread of course.

Diane Taylor

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle & Family
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:42 AM

The last comment was from Simon Doyle & Family.

Thanks to everyone for the nice comments.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:38 AM

campin

This is the last comment from Simon Doyle & Family.

quote this sentance from you = There may well be such a distinct kind of traveller music within the Irish tradition, but if so I didn't hear it at the concert I went to, or from the Doyles busking. Is that clear enuogh?


As there is a very distinct Traveller style within the Irish traditional music, you have clearly stated that you havn't heard it before from saying 'there may well be' so how can you say you didn't hear it at the concert you went to if you havn't heard it before?????

As at the Travellers concert we played very old tunes from our background that i learned from my parents and also from my gradparents that was past down to us. (ie slow airs, tunes from very old travellers songs, really old lovelley jigs that were played and passed down from genaration to genaration, tunes I composed myself)

And also there were tunes played I learned from Pecker Dunne, Margaret Barry, The Fureys, Paddy Keenan amongst tunes from my own family.

As Jerry most kindley pointed out above as to the style me and my family play in.

And as to make a comment about two little boys busking at the bridge = 'or from the Doyles busking' yes there were some tunes that people new but there were also a lot of tunes played that people didn't know aswell that are from our tradition,

but you see campin you are starting to pick on two little boys aged 10 & 11 years old now arn't you!

but i'll tell you what! you should be very proud of yourself.

but of course i do remember you now you were in the ship pub the day i was there and you came out with a ignorant snide remark to me and all the musicians just look at you discussed.

Now to finish this of as you said as part of your comment!

Is That Clear Enough.

p.s me & the family just of now to catch flight to U.S to perform in a Travellers Concert

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:34 AM

jack, I am objecting to your remarks posing and patriarchal control freakery, you owe the doyles an apology.
the best thing you can do in future is think before opening your mouth or maybe do not open you mouth.
this kind of pre judgement reminds me of the rubbish Strawhead had to put up with years ago, about them being fascists.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:34 AM

How anyone can relate 2 completely different traveller traditions in this way is beyond me.

The Scottish tradition I mentioned is quite clearly a distinct and identifiable one - different versions of songs, stories and tunes from the way other people do them, different style, different kinds of transmission from what you get in other kinds of Scottish traditional music.

(I have also encountered Gypsy folk music first-hand in Romania, and that's a great deal more different from the surrounding Romanian and Hungarian mainstream, but not so relevant here).

I'd never heard of the group before and knew only what the Folk Week programme told me.

So, given that blurb, I was expecting something clearly different from the kind of Irish music you might have heard every day at the Ship. Different versions, different back stories, different performance style. Something I hadn't heard before.

There may well be such a distinct kind of traveller music within the Irish tradition, but if so I didn't hear it at the concert I went to, or from the Doyles busking.

Is that clear enough?

Did YOU hear anything you could point to as distinctively Traveller in origin, unlike any other Irish music? If so, what was it?

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:34 AM

jack campin said this...It wasn't Simon Doyle's music I disliked so much as the posing and the patriarchal control-freakery.
that in my opinion is completely out of order

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:31 AM

sorry Dick,
criticism is fine when it is constructive , but it was not even criticism of the music, the criticism was based on, the critic was assuming that one of the members was a control freak,he was assuming that the performers smiles were fake,he did not know the people personally he was jumping to conclusions this is not acceptable. Jack remarks tel us more about the mood he was in, than the performers music thse remarks are close to libellous.
I have not seen these performers but i would not jump to conclusions and make remarks about control freaks. but this is typical of so much folk reviews and folk criticism which is amatuerish, and too often bitchy, and seems to be too often an excuse for the critic to pour forth his own bad mood, performers like myself and the doyle family are expectyed to be professional meanwhile we have to put up with this amaturish criticism, Irepeat ..
criticism of the music is fine if it is constructive, but this was not even criticism of the music.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 09:01 PM

I haven't heard the Doyle Family, and I have no dog in this fight.
I'm disappointed that a bit of negative criticism of any performer is considered to be unacceptable.Especially one which is more or less specific. A public person lays himself open to such.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,CCS
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 04:54 AM

What a bitter end to a fantastic Whitby Week. Get back to the positive stuff, this is boring!

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 01:43 PM

I'd just like to add my two pennorth in, I hope, an unhurtful manner.
1) I didn't find Keith Donnelly's performance at the Music Hall night funny at all, because I didn't understand it and I did't think this was a suitable act on which to end. But a lot of people there would have disagreed with me strongly! My opinion is only personal.
2) "The lads by the bridge" were well up to their usual standard. Until the fracas above, I had no idea who they were, but I shall look forward to hearing them again!

Love and Fishes,

Chris

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:49 PM

I strongly recommend anyone read the first 28 posts on this thread, and stop there.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:13 PM

GUEST,
If you don't want to join then at least add your name.

'didn't appreciate one act', 'slight criticism' is rather understating in view of the terms used.

Jack's second criticisms were admirably answered by Simon, without 'ranting'. How anyone can relate 2 completely different traveller traditions in this way is beyond me.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:57 PM

O gosh you make it sound so easy and harmless on Mr.Campins part,
and for someone to say they would not go to listen to them for what they have read on this thread, i think it is very imature.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:40 PM

Good grief, one man makes a comment to say he didn't appreciate one act, he then goes on to comment about the "lead" of that act and his perceived attitude to the other members of the group who were playing (his children).

No "RACISM" no "HATRED" in fact no mention of the background of the performers at all.

Then the slighted party retorts with what can only be termed a "rant" and a lot of you back the guy who lost his temper.

I have not seen Simon Doyle and his family , although I did listen to the two young lads playing pipes by the bridge in Whitby. However what I have read on this site will deter me from ever going to listen to them.

Something Mr Doyle may want to bear in mind when responding to a slight criticism on a public forum is that it cuts both ways and although you may disagree with Jack Campin's views he has a right to make them in the same way as you have a right to follow the life you do.