porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:10 AM

To sum up:

The people who produced this film are despicable, and appear to be associated with right wing extremist Steve Klein who claims to have been a script consultant and Middle Eastern Christains who live in the US and hold extreme anti-Islamic views; Coptic Christian Nakoula Basseley Nakoula has acknowledged managing the company that produced the film and may also be "Sam Bacile" the fictitious person who posted the film rider with a dubbed Arabic sound track to You-Tube.

The demonstration in Libya triggered by the You-Tube film rider may well have been taken advantage of by Islamic militants who had previously planned an attack on the Consulate in Benghazi in association with the September 11, 2001, anniversary terrorists strikes in the US.

That's what makes sense to me. The peaceful protests were an appropriate response to the despicable film rider. The violent attacks and murder of the Consulate staff were not.

The Romney political response was inappropriate as well as inaccurate in terms of how it described the events leading up to the attack on the Consulate in Benghazi.

I'm frankly getting tired of the many posts in threads like this that simply react to such news stories without doing a little background research. If one takes the time to reread what many people have already posted, including my own inane post, they are embarrassing at the least and highly disrespectful of those who actually died in the service of their country.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:17 AM

The film was a cover-up of the REAL reasons for the uprisings.
This will come out even more than it has already....you'll see!

GfS

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:21 AM

From another current thread:

Subject: RE: BS: Gulf of Tonkin Incident...real or fake?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:54 AM

OH...and one more tidbit....

The U.S. Embassies , in Libya and Egypt were sacked, and four Americans killed, including the Ambassador, because the protesters were protesting a film on 'YouTube'?..Real or Fake?????????

Hint: From all the 'news' reports, they were chanting, "Obama, We are a billion Osamas!"

(No mention of them chanting ANYTHING about a film!)

Another Hint: At the DNC, Obama's spiking the football about the death of OBL, was boasted 21 times!

Now I don't know if the film 'smokescreen' was very true....but what I posted is absolutely true!

Gosh, think it might have to do with his foreign policies?

You know, ignore the Iranian's when they are protesting and dying in the streets, root for the Egyptians, ignore the Syrian civilians when they are dying in the streets, give air support to the Libyans....

BTW, Saudis are coming up on the list....just think, if they got overthrown, do you think we could rationalize not paying them off for all the U.S. notes they're holding, so we'd buy their oil??..Gosh, what a great reason to drill here, huh?....Ever heard that before???
Broke it here on Mudcat, close to a year ago.....

Sane or gifted??
Real or fake??
Republican or Democrat??

GfS

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:22 AM

The cost of the muslim taboo video is said to cost 5 million dollars

How Amb.Stevens arrived at the Bengazi hospital is still unclear. Perhaps locals tried to help but wish to remain annonymous for fear of extremeist reprisals. What is clear is that both Glen Beck and Fox nes are claiming that Ambassador Steven's mutillated body was dragged through Bengazi streets exactly like our Black Hawk down troops in Somalia.

The most incoherent reporting on FOX claims that Obama started the Arab Spring protest movement to replace our allies like Mubarek and Gadafi with the Muslim Brotherhood. John McCain claims somthing similar in that Obama's failure to lead has led directly to the ascendency of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The story of a coordinated attack by a Muslim militia rings true since the attack was tried once before in a similar manner at the same Embassy.






link

Isreal denies the 5 million dollar film designed to inflame all the Muslim taboos, is connected to Netanyahu's need to attack Iran and order the US military to coordinate with Isreal military forces.
Romney has given Netanyahu his assurance that the US military would assist Isreal in the invasion of Iran. That promise spured Netanyahu to campaign for Romney and shmooze the neocons in Washington.

Netanyahu is an Isreali version of John McCain who maintains his political ambitions with an incessant call to war.

So far Obama has frustrated every attempt by Netayahu to get the US to give Iran an Ultimatum to war.

Personally I do not think Isreal should presume they are entitled to American lives, treasure, American geopolitcal standing and the entire US military to attack Iran's nuclear facilities.

Perhaps this is an example of a pre emptive war and invasion that should have been waged but according to the Art of War there are more clever ways to expose Iran to defeat and its nuclear ambitions.
Obama has proved he is more cool and calculating than the knee jerk neo cons when dealing with Islamic aggression.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:27 AM

It was also claimed that his death was caused by asphyxiation!

GfS

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: bobad
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:27 AM

Charley is once again a clear voice of reason in the murky sea of speculation and uninformed opinion.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:34 AM

quote: Even radio and television didn't alter that situation very much, since program controllers simply blanked those idiots.
The internet has changed all that. Now the extremist can post his filth world wide and cause massive damage on an international scale.

Good point. The film and the violence it's said to have caused would make a very persuasive argument for internet censorship, at least in the Muslim world, and maybe corporate self-regulation in the Free world. The internet has been a nuisance to all governments for some time now, to say nothing of the recent impact of Wikileaks, so this astonishingly amateurish film couldn't have come at a better time.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:36 AM

Comon dude, like Ebbie says context is everything.

asphyxiation - by smoke inhalation.

choking/strangulation will leave permanent clues entirely different than smoke inhalation.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:56 AM

remember a film called "The Last Temptation of Christ" from a few years ago.
No riots or murders that I can recall.

Your recollection is highly selective.

Paris theatre arson attack

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:15 AM

Most alarming to me in the midst of the embassy killings is that Netanyahu is insisting President Obama give Iran an ultimatum to war.

I hope Obama has a sensible plan to undermine Iran's nuclear ambition other than Isreal's plan to explode the nuclear facilities in Iran creating the biggest dirty bomb event ever seen.
Even if Iran makes a nuke
do you really think that Iran has no regard for nuclear retalliation?

Step away from nuclear war. There is plenty of time. Isreal, if you are in such a hurry do as you did in Iraq but leave my country out of it.

There are probably some who belive Isreal can do no wrong. Lets hope they are right.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:23 AM

quote: Coptic Christian Nakoula Basseley Nakoula has acknowledged managing the company that produced the film and may also be "Sam Bacile" the fictitious person who posted the film rider with a dubbed Arabic sound track to You-Tube.

The Copts, descendants of the ancient Egyptians, have long been persecuted by the Arabs who conquered Egypt. They're killed routinely even without insulting Islam. The last thing they'd want is to inflame Muslim militants, so the idea that a Copt would make a film like this is even more improbable than the earlier story that it was made by an Israeli Jew using Hitler's rhetoric. Exposing one lie doesn't necessarily mean we've arrived at the truth.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:24 AM

As I watched various news programs late last night, it became evident that there were several events, which may or may not be directly connected. We may never know exactly who 'saw' a film, or what their intention was based on, or whether there would have been attacks without the film.

What we DO have is a timeline of when various events happened... including Obama's & Romney's reaction to the film, the protests, the attacks and each other's statements.

While we wait for 'some' clarification of who was actually responsible for the various protests and attacks, we can focus on the responsibility for the stupid, hateful film .... which is indefensible no matter what its causality is deemed to be. We can also evaluate the 'rush to judgment' and political posturing of Mitt Romney, who is being criticized by many Republicans for his blundering.

.... and we can recognize the amazing dedication of many of our foreign service officers who work long hours in dangerous countries.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:30 AM

Thats been done - remember a film called "The Last Temptation of Christ" from a few years ago.
No riots or murders that I can recall.

Your memory is selective.

French Catholics tried to burn down a theatre where it was showing and severely injured several people.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:37 AM

"In fact, the very existence of one of those three religions is an insult to the other two"
In some communities around the world, combinations of Jews, Christians and Muslims live side by side without any problems and with much mutual respect. I have myself seen this with Muslims and Christians in Southern Senegal (Casamance) for example, and also among all three in Casablanca, Morocco. As I've often said on Mudcat, my husband is a Muslim and I'm a Christian, and we have no problems with this whatsoever.
Free speech is vital, but there have always been blasphemy laws, and more recently 'incite to hatred' laws, to take effect where mutual respect breaks down.
A few months ago, there was a birth-control poster showing the Virgin Mary looking at a pregnancy test. I was rather taken aback, as were many Christians, but no-one was attacked because of it. I do feel that it should have been banned however.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:44 AM

10, years ago 15 years ago, the fuel that escalated the Israel/Palestinian conflict was Likud on one side, and Hamas on the other trading harsh words an atrocities in order to consolidate their own power as the only one who can protect its constituents against the other.

I see Pastor Jones and certain Islamic militants playing that same game and unfortunately I see a number of members of what I would call the Organized Church of Anti-God, some of whom evangelize on this forum egging them on.

The fact is the number of people who want war between Christianity and Islam is almost insignificant. The attention they get is very significant.

Though the GOP is quite happy to exploit that conflict in order to inspire the fear based voters in its base.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:57 AM

Tony-

"The Copts, descendants of the ancient Egyptians, have long been persecuted by the Arabs who conquered Egypt. They're killed routinely even without insulting Islam. The last thing they'd want is to inflame Muslim militants, so the idea that a Copt would make a film like this is even more improbable than the earlier story that it was made by an Israeli Jew using Hitler's rhetoric. "

We disagree in part. The Coptic believers in Egypt are no doubt persecuted and would hardly be associated with such a film. However, that is not the case for some Coptic believers safe in the US who are quite embittered and willing to produce such a film.

From Al Jazeera:

"The US prosecutor-general said on Wednesday that four people were being questioned after Tuesday's events.

Nine Coptic Egyptian-Americans were also put on an airport watch list. They are believed to have contributed to the production of the anti-Islam film that led to the embassy protest."

Second report:

"Morris Sadek, an Egypt-born Coptic Christian who lives in the US, told the Associated Press he had been promoting the film on his website. He also tweeted a link to the trailer on September 9.

Sadek, who serves as head of the National American Coptic Assembly, is known for his vehemently anti-Islam views. He told the Wall Street Journal that 'the violence that it [the film] caused in Egypt is further evidence of how violent the religion and people are.'"

No apologies needed. Just do your homework before posting.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:47 PM

The film has been around for a while. Pastor Jones, in his infinite wisdom, dragged it from the scrapheap and, through the miracle of modern communications technology, managed to create an international incident that neither he, nor anyone else seems to have anticipated.

Given that, whatever we may think of his ideas and his methods, he didn't start the fire. The attack in Benghazi looks very much like it is part of a paramilitary campaign that has been in progress for a while. It is likely that they took advantage of the fact that a peaceful demonstration was in progress to cover their approach.

It looks very much like the protests in other places are being used in the same way. When there is a volatile situation, it just takes one match.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:51 PM

I think that he totally anticipated that there would be a reaction from radical Muslims. I think that what surprised him was that it did not lead to World War III.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:54 PM

A couple of teenagers hit my local theater with stink-bombs for showing "The Last Temptation of Christ."

Nobody was injured, however. The next most dramatic thing I recall was a large middle-aged woman shouting that an "atheist" had tried to run her down with a car for holding a protest sign. She said, "His eyes were big as silver dollars!"

Nobody else seemed to have noticed the incident.

There may have been a couple of dozen protesters, most of whom were well behaved. A few looked angry.

One big difference is that "Last Temptation" was not created to insult or defame Jesus, though a few thought it did.

Mel Gibson's Jesus movie was widely criticized for antisemitism. Again, there were some protests, but nobody seems to have been hurt.

In other words, nothing like the scenes in Egypt and Libya yesterday.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:59 PM

This point seems to be lost in one of Donuel's creative flourishes, But the date of the attack tells us a lot about its purpose. Its fun to talk about all the newer elements of this. But I, for one, do not believe that al-Qaeda needs any more excuses than it had on September 10, 2001 to attack US interests.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 01:22 PM

No apology, Charley. I did read several reports about the Coptic identity of the film-maker before I posted, just as I had earlier read several reports about Jewish film-makers and financiers. But, as I said, I'm skeptical because it makes no sense. It only makes sense if those Coptic-Americans are embittered toward the Coptic community in Egypt. Is that what you meant? The film did nothing to harm Muslims or to undermine anyone's faith in or opinion about Islam, but Christians in Muslim countries will certainly suffer from it.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: number 6
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 01:26 PM

Has anyone here surmised that many countries (especially in the mid-east) don't trust, just don't like the United States of America. Fed up of the lies of the U.S.government ... fed up of the U.S. meddling in their own affairs for so many years ... fed up of the righteous attitude imposed upon their own culture and politikal affairs. Fed up of U.S.wars on their own homeland.

These people are just plain angry. As if they didin't have enough problems through the years with dictators sponsored by by the U.S.

biLL

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 01:33 PM

Definitely, biLL. And they're probably unaware of our level of political naïveté. They may assume that we understand and approve of everything our government does around the world, in which case they're surely wondering how any human being could be so callous and cruel.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 01:40 PM

I agree with biLL, to the point that the film was just an excuse!..a smokescreen!

GfS

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:08 PM

Fascinating reading, especially including the 3,000 comments already posted (I read about fifty):

http://news.yahoo.com/feds-id-california-mans-role-anti-islam-film-164554115.html

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:18 PM

"Has anyone here surmised that many countries (especially in the mid-east) don't trust, just don't like the United States of America. Fed up of the lies of the U.S.government ... fed up of the U.S. meddling in their own affairs for so many years ... fed up of the righteous attitude imposed upon their own culture and politikal affairs. Fed up of U.S.wars on their own homeland."

Yes!! I surmised a very similar point and posted it 27 minutes before you did.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:28 PM

For those willing to spend a bit of time, there is a fascinating interview on NPR's Talk of the Nation which will be available online later tonight HERE:

To understand many of the triumphs, tragedies and conflicts in the world, geopolitical analyst Robert Kaplan says to look no further than a map. In his book The Revenge Of Geography, Kaplan argues that geography is central to understanding the history and future of world affairs.

There are summaries of the other segments on that page. The first part on Libya, etc, was VERY interesting and well worth listening, as well as the author listed above.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:02 PM

In the case of Libya, Pres Obama, to his great credit, had to be dragged into the conflict by Hillary the Hawk and the vague Mr Hague from the UK.

Because of idiots like these the Middle East and North Africa is now in the hands of Muslim extremists, who will show no "toleration" of any other religion, indeed, any other way of life but Sharia Islam.

In Libya, Egypt,Iraq, we have enabled this disaster and the victors are just starting to flex their muscles.....watch this space!

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: gnu
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:38 PM

Conspiracy theories ain't so far fetched. You got yours and I got The Gulf of Mexico. In case ya didn't catch it, BP spilled a shitload a yer crude there and had ta make up the bucks ($20B is a low guess) in tha long run so it said to Quackdaffy they had to "renegotiate" the deal that had just seen BP setting up in Libya and he said, "FUCK YOU! I GOTTA CONTRACT!" (I am paraphrasing). Quackdaddy is dead. The companies that BP also fucked over are a tad pissed and they are not just in Libya. You do the math.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:56 PM

The film has been around for a while. Pastor Jones, in his infinite wisdom, dragged it from the scrapheap and, through the miracle of modern communications technology, managed to create an international incident that neither he, nor anyone else seems to have anticipated.

I would think it pretty certain that those who created and distributed the film were hoping for the kind of things happening that have happened.

Those who want to see this kind of conflict build up share the same agenda, whichever side of the sectarian divide they might be.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 05:32 PM

Sorry, McGrath, but I don't see how you can be "pretty certain" of that.

Here is possible, and much more believable scenario:

A really bad businessman, who has already lost a lot of money for himself and others with a shady banking scheme, comes up with another money making idea, just as good, which is to make a really low budget movie that exploits prejudices about Islam, and market it to rabidly anti-Islamic American Christian fundamentalists. It works for Pat Robertson.


Your problem, McGrath, is that you don't know how to think like an American.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: gnu
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:33 PM

Yeah, it works for scum. Part of the problem.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:37 PM

You mean like Charles Lamb's notion about how people used to burn down houses in order to get some roast pork?

I rather think that the idea of stirring things up and getting some people killed with useful consequences might have entered into the thinking as well as the hope of coining it. Making a killing both ways in fact.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Janie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:59 PM

Glenn/highlandman,

Whether the quote is garbled or not, a "well said" back at you. Not a bad philosophy to try to live by.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 07:51 PM

quote: ...to make a really low budget movie that exploits prejudices about Islam, and market it to rabidly anti-Islamic American Christian fundamentalists.

That does make sense, up to a point; and the business of America is, as you said, business. Only, why dub it into Arabic then? You'd only need the original English version for the American fundamentalists. But if the people who bought the film wanted to inflame Muslim fundamentalists as well, they would have asked for the Arabic version as an extra.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 08:04 PM

Tony-

"I did read several reports about the Coptic identity of the film-maker before I posted, just as I had earlier read several reports about Jewish film-makers and financiers. But, as I said, I'm skeptical because it makes no sense. It only makes sense if those Coptic-Americans are embittered toward the Coptic community in Egypt. Is that what you meant? The film did nothing to harm Muslims or to undermine anyone's faith in or opinion about Islam, but Christians in Muslim countries will certainly suffer from it."

I agree that it doesn't "make sense" for the Coptic film producer, Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, to do this, and run the risk of endangering his family and other Coptic Christians in Egypt by his actions. However, according this evening ABC interview with the gentleman in questions, he admits collecting money from relatives in Egypt and directing and distributing the film clip, including the Arabic version. So maybe you should re-examine your assumptions about what "makes sense" for some Coptic Christians in this country to do, versus what is part of some international conspiracy, or not.

I also deeply disagree with your statement that "The film did nothing to harm Muslims or to undermine anyone's faith in or opinion about Islam..." Maybe on your planet that statement could be true, not on this one.

Anyone else here want to do the math?

Having served in the Peace Corps for three years, I'm probably taking the death of Ambassador Chris Stevens more personally that some of the posters. In my opinion he was a well-informed man who placed himself in danger to help Libyans free themselves of Ghadafi and represent our best values abroad.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 08:56 PM

So we agree that it doesn't make sense in a normal way. And you said that if it was done at all it must make sense in some way. That's really my point – in what twisted covert scenario does it make sense? Sometimes stupid people do things that don't make sense in any way; and it does make a kind of sense for a sleezeball of any ethnic background to try to make a buck by degrading himself and the world around him, as Stim suggested. But in political matters when something doesn't appear to make sense there's often a more complex explanation.

The Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Los Angeles issued a statement to the same affect. They disassociated themselves and their flock from the film-maker, pointing out that his action was diametrically opposed to Christian teaching and longstanding Coptic practice, and they suggested that the film-maker had an ulterior motive. And they asked that we not take the usual ignorant approach of saying "Well, that shows what those people are like."

The film does no harm to Muslims or Islam because it's so crudely made. Have you seen the 14 minute clip on YouTube? It's artistically and intellectually equivalent to writing "Muhammed very bad man" on a placard, but infinitely more tedious.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:01 PM

Seems odd that one person could knowingly and easily incite such actions and there is nothing that anyone impacted can do about it, or it from happening again?

Should there not be a law for that type of thing?

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:09 PM

The Arabic translation was for the investors back home. The sad fact of the matter is that the idea making a "Hollywood Movie" is more seductive that any religion, and it can drive people have to do nearly anything.


Charley: Chris Stevens seemed like an amazing person. I am proud that someone like him represented us, and and feel great pain at the price he paid.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: gnu
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:20 PM

Ed, in Canada there is.

Or were you asking a silly question? That ain't so silly???

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:22 PM

It's also likely that the "film" itself is merely the excuse that more radical Islamists are using to focus general public outrage on "their enemies," the United States and its allies.

Tony-

"The film does no harm to Muslims or Islam because it's so crudely made."

But was not it the catalyst, crude as it is, for this attack on several US embassies and consulates? Maybe you mean "should do no harm" in a more perfect world.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:12 PM

Yes, it may have been the catalyst, for that and future attacks on embassies and American travelers and Christians living in Muslim nations. I was taking "harm" to mean the person who gets firebombed, not the person who tosses it, though of course in a spiritual sense both are harmed. And even in practical terms there will be repercussions for the rioters. And those repercussions, and other forms of divide-and-conquer self-destruction of any nation that doesn't submit to the empire, I see as a consistent thread of US foreign policy.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 06:19 AM

"We went into this knowing this was probably going to happen" - Steve Klein, evidently one of the main people behind the film. (From here)

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 06:59 AM

""One big difference is that "Last Temptation" was not created to insult or defame Jesus, though a few thought it did.

Mel Gibson's Jesus movie was widely criticized for antisemitism. Again, there were some protests, but nobody seems to have been hurt.

In other words, nothing like the scenes in Egypt and Libya yesterday.""

No, the BIG difference is that Islam forbids the production of images of their prophet. To add to that the depiction of him as being involved in obscene sexual practises, would represent the very worst example of blasphemy to its followers.

It strikes at the very heart of what they believe, and plays right into the hands of Islamic extremists, because it tends to push moderates in their direction.

Rev Jones should be kicked out of his church, stripped of his ministry and jailed for a very long time.

Don T.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 07:12 AM

Jailed for what?
Blasphemy is forbiden by all religions, but in the West it is no longer regarded as a crime.
Must we go backwards on that?
I think we should encourage other cultures to stop killing people, including children, and even with learning difficulties, for just being accused of it.

I truly find that offensive, but I will refrain from rioting.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 07:55 AM

The Guardian article makes sense out of the whole mess. That Klein quote was in all the reports, but this one goes into a lot of detail about his hate-mongering career and the role he had in making the film, too long and complex even to summarize here. Thanks, McGrath, for that link.

The only question that remains is why the US government allows those hate groups to flourish. The standard answer is to wring our hands and say it's a shame we can't prevent things like this, but it's because we value freedom, and the only way to prevent it would be by taking away that freedom. That myth persists even now, when we can't get on an airplane with a bottle of water, and the President can have any one of us pulled out of our home and sent to a cage in Guantanamo without giving a reason.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 09:08 AM

Yes, the Guardian article linked above

The Guardian article does clarify who the "hate-mongers" are who produced and distributed the film. They are no doubt very proud of what they've accomplished, and for a mere $60,000.

I would think that these scum could at least be charged with a hate crime, and libel for civil charges from the families of those Americans killed in the attack on the US Consulate in Libya. Maybe their American citizenship could be revoked and they could be sent back to simmer in Egypt.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 10:39 AM

But the person who set the direction of the project and probably initiated it was the American-born Vietnam veteran Klein. There's nowhere to send him back to.

Klein openly advocates violence toward Muslims in the US. The connection with Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik should at least have been enough to get him on a federal watch list. I assume he was watched, and people in high places knew about the movie and its intended effect before it was made.

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 11:04 AM

Sadly, we Americans have no "Guardian" to rely on for the facts, and hence must trust such as the New York Times, who have this to offer:
Origins of Provocative Videos are Shrouded

Here is a quote: "Sam said the intent of the film was to get extremist Muslims to stop killing," Mr. Klein said Thursday.

And another: "It looked like drunk people trying to do a 'Saturday Night Live' skit directed by the Three Stooges," Mr. Klein said. "But it was absolutely spot on accurate in terms of its depiction of Muhammad and Islam."

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: saulgoldie
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 11:55 AM

Ooo, quick! 100!!