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New Guitars?

Henry Krinkle 12 Sep 12 - 08:34 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 12 Sep 12 - 08:49 PM
Henry Krinkle 12 Sep 12 - 08:56 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 12 Sep 12 - 09:04 PM
Henry Krinkle 12 Sep 12 - 09:17 PM
Richard Bridge 12 Sep 12 - 11:03 PM
Ebbie 13 Sep 12 - 12:00 AM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 12 - 12:04 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 13 Sep 12 - 12:16 AM
Ernest 13 Sep 12 - 02:02 AM
theleveller 13 Sep 12 - 03:40 AM
Henry Krinkle 13 Sep 12 - 06:09 AM
Will Fly 13 Sep 12 - 06:33 AM
theleveller 13 Sep 12 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 13 Sep 12 - 09:12 AM
theleveller 13 Sep 12 - 09:15 AM
Dave Hanson 13 Sep 12 - 10:51 AM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 12 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,punklfolkrocker 13 Sep 12 - 02:08 PM
Dave Hanson 13 Sep 12 - 02:34 PM
theleveller 13 Sep 12 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 13 Sep 12 - 03:44 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 12 - 07:21 PM
Henry Krinkle 13 Sep 12 - 07:44 PM
GUEST, Ebbie, housesitting 14 Sep 12 - 02:05 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 14 Sep 12 - 02:19 AM
theleveller 14 Sep 12 - 03:29 AM
theleveller 14 Sep 12 - 03:31 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 14 Sep 12 - 04:45 AM
cooperman 14 Sep 12 - 05:11 AM
Henry Krinkle 14 Sep 12 - 06:15 AM
Henry Krinkle 14 Sep 12 - 01:50 PM
Little Hawk 14 Sep 12 - 02:15 PM
Henry Krinkle 14 Sep 12 - 02:39 PM
Abdul The Bul Bul 14 Sep 12 - 02:47 PM
Henry Krinkle 14 Sep 12 - 03:01 PM
Mooh 14 Sep 12 - 10:04 PM
Henry Krinkle 15 Sep 12 - 12:44 AM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 12 - 01:48 AM
GUEST,gillymor 15 Sep 12 - 01:28 PM
Henry Krinkle 15 Sep 12 - 02:22 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 12 - 02:28 PM
Don Firth 15 Sep 12 - 04:28 PM
Henry Krinkle 15 Sep 12 - 04:52 PM
Henry Krinkle 15 Sep 12 - 04:57 PM
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Subject: New Guitars?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 08:34 PM

Aren't there more guitars out there than there is people to play them?
Don't we care about saving natural resources?
Do we need to kill more spruce, mahogany, cedar and maple trees?
Why buy a new guitar? Lots of great used ones out there.
Save a tree (or 3) and buy used guitars.
This message brought to you by Henry Krinkle.
(:-( D)=


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 08:49 PM

The 'great used guitars' tend to be regarded as collector's investment commodities
and priced way beyond the aspirations of average and low income guitarists...

yeah, maybe if you live in the USA you might occasionally still stumble upon
old fellas living way out in isolated rural communities
who have no concept of the current market value
of their old tucked away under the bed unwanted Gibsons /Fenders /martins etc..

and may willingly trade them for a bag of chewin tobacca and a set of new tyres...


but that never happens in the UK and mainland Europe.

But luckily, there are still reasonably affordable bargains to be found
on 20 or 30 year old excellent quality Japanese & Korean guitars...


As for over production of new guitars, can't disagree... that's the inefficiencies of capitalism..

..but while the factories are blindly churning out perfectly acceptable new instruments
and I can find the overstock discounted amazingly cheap on ebay...


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 08:56 PM

You can still find cool European guitars, can't you?
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 09:04 PM

"You can still find cool European guitars, can't you?"

rarely anymore,
the likes of affluent Japanese & American collectors have mopped up the at the auctions
and raised prices & the profit expectations of sellers to astonishingly ridiculous levels..


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 09:17 PM

Oh. Too bad.
Germans made cool ones. Those clever Germans.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 11:03 PM

I think buying second hand is the way to go to get a good (if not earth-shattering) guitar. A Yamaha FG360 just got no bids on ebay with a starting price of GBP260. A Hagstrom J-45 (albeit a tailpiece one) just sold on ebay for GBP220. I just got a Daion THE80W twin-neck off ebay for GBP495. There's a Washburn WS125 now standing at GBP135 with a day and a bit to go. And a USA made Harmony with no bids under GBP200. A Moridaira W601 (common as rockinghorse shit) just come on with a buy it now of GBP50!

But, yes, there are some loony prices too - there's a Mugen (or Daion) THE78 on ebay now with a buy it now of US$1500, and a Daion Caribou with a buy it now of over GBP1000, and after I got my THE80W another was on with a buy it now of GBP1500.


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:00 AM

Trees are a renewable resource and I can't imagine a better use for a cut tree than making music.


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:04 AM

Hey, you can avoid wood altogether, Henry. Rainsong makes carbon fibre guitars that play great, sound great, and stay in tune better than any guitar made out of wood ever will.

Oh, and check this out: You talkin' to me?


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:16 AM

and some really good solid body elecrics I got heavily discounted a few years ago
when "Switch Guitars" went out of business
were made from synthetic Vibracell material - a plastic with the close tonal quality of mahogany..


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Ernest
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 02:02 AM

Wonder how much energy is needed to produce the carbon fibre, LH...

Wood is renewable - and providing some forest managment (replanting etc.) is done (not jut felling the trees and leaving the land to beef producing)there is no grat damage done. Still the transportation of tropical woods uses energy as well. One could use only local wood but that would leave dveloping countries with less income...

This issue is kind´a complicated, isn`t it?


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:40 AM

Rubbish! Most good luthiers are using recycled or renewable woods that come from responsible sources and are experimenting with new kinds of tonewoods that are from managed forests. I recently played a wonderful mahogany tenor made from an old Barclays Bank counter by Patrick James Eggle and George Lowden has made guitars from old Bushmills whiskey barrels ("very woody sound", he told me, "and an absolutely amazing smell").


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:09 AM

What about the big companies? Are they making their guitars out of shipping pallets? I know Taylor made an experimental one and it sounded fine.
But I'll go with used. I don't have to have shiny new.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:33 AM

There are some wonderful new and second-hand European guitars to be bought, if you know what to look for.

I picked up a s/h Otwin (East German maker Othmar Windisch) made in 1961 on eBay a few months ago. It's a sunburst, f-hole, archtop. I put a Kent Armstrong floating neck pickup on it, and a floating pickguard from a supplier in New Jersey. Total cost: around £200. Result: lovely jazz guitar.

And, if you want to support your local craftsmen and bypass the rich collectors, save your cash and commission a guitar from a luthier. Odds are you'll get a great instrument to your specifications and help the local economy.


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 07:29 AM

"What about the big companies?"

What Will says:

"And, if you want to support your local craftsmen and bypass the rich collectors, save your cash and commission a guitar from a luthier. Odds are you'll get a great instrument to your specifications and help the local economy."


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:12 AM

There's a luthier near me known for his fantastic mandola family instruments..

Lust for such a splendid local hand crafted mandola is futile as he sells at 'Rolls Royce' prices..

So accepting my dire financial state
I tend to make do with cheap ebay Chinese 12 string guitars
with 2 courses of strings removed..

.. works good enough for Home recording and local gigs...


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:15 AM

The fact that I have a guitar that is worth more than my car says more about my car than my guitar ;)


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:51 AM

I've got 2 Eastmans [ Chinese ] a 615 mandolin which is very good and the same model mandola which is a really great instrument.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 02:06 PM

How about new shoes, Henry? Whaddya think?


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: GUEST,punklfolkrocker
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 02:08 PM

and if we want to save trees..

what about used toilet paper...??????


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 02:34 PM

Ever hear of a bidet ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:17 PM

"How about new shoes, Henry? Whaddya think?"

Hey, I buy most of my shoes and all my Levis second hand off ebay. Who the hell would pay £50-60 for Levis when you can buy them nicely worn in fo £15?


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:44 PM

One of my favourite go to guitars is a Japanese Aria Pro Cardinal Series CS-400 sunburst finish.
[from the revered Matsumoko factory]
which is getting of for 3 decades old
and battle scarred like a fight seasoned pit bull...

http://www.matsumoku.org/models/ariaproii/cs/cs-400.html



Cost me about £60 quid just over 10 years ago.

Tone is superb and plays just right for me...

Easily comparable to vastly far more expensive new 'legendary' American guitars.


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 07:21 PM

And what about condoms? Is there really any good reason for buying new ones?


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 07:44 PM

I buy my shoes new. Underwear too.And jeans. I get shirts from the thrift store. Hats too. I don't use condoms. I'm a thrillseeker. Live dangerously.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: GUEST, Ebbie, housesitting
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 02:05 AM

I bought my D35 where it had been put on consignment. There was another guitar I really liked- an Aria - and it was much cheaper. However, I kept going back to the Martin- there was a richness to its tone that the Aria simply didn't have.

Proprietor finally said, If you take the one you REALLY want, you'll never be sorry.

And I never have been.


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 02:19 AM

I prefer to buy instruments used, but if I really like one and have the money to buy it, I'm not gonna take a pass just because it's new.


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 03:29 AM

I only own a couple of guitars. I bought my Lowden with a small windfall 16 years ago after being without a guitar for over 25 years. I didn't intend to pay that much but after several hours trying every instrument in the guitar shop it was love at first play and I had to have it. It's still the best guitar I've ever played and I wouldn't swap it.

A few years ago I inherited my father-in-law's Gibson 325 but don't play electric so I eventually sold it and bought a Brazilian Rosewood (with proper certification) Avalon dierct from the maker. This seldom leaves the house (I can't afford to insure it!) and is intended to become a family heirloom (my daughter has alreadytaught herself to play on it).


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 03:31 AM

"I buy my shoes new. Underwear too"

You wear underwear? I always imagined you as a commando.


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 04:45 AM

as King Lear said - reason not the need....

as Ralph McTell said - I love buying guitars on e-bay. Its like getting Exchange and Mart delivered six times a day.....


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: cooperman
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 05:11 AM

I like e-bay but when buying second hand there are things to remember.
There could be fret wear, uneven frets, lifted bridge or bellying of sound board (on acoustic) twisted or bowed neck, is truss rod working?
It might need more than a regular set up. If it's nearby and you can try it/check it out then that's fine. Of course it may be so cheap that you can afford to take a chance! Steve


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 06:15 AM

I got my Gibson LGO in a trade. Traded my 60's Harmony Sovereign for it. He gave me $40,a Kyser capo ( I traded it away because I hate them) a Korg tuner. The bridge was coming off the Harmony. He later told me the truss rod was broken. The Gibson had had lots of good work done to it by someone that knew what they were doing.
New rosewood bridge with compensated saddle. New bridge plate. Bone nut.
A wonderful guitar. I never played the Harmony. It didn't ever play well. Good for slide,though.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 01:50 PM

So what if wood is a renewable resource? We have enough guitars made from it. Let's find a way to power automobiles with it.
Let the oil stay in the ground where it belongs.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 02:15 PM

You can power an automobile with wood, providing the automobile is equipped with a steam engine. There were such vehicles made in the very early days of the "horseless carriage".


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 02:39 PM

I know. The old days were best.
We could make ethanol out of wood and burn it in our Silverados.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 02:47 PM

I dunno, all that time resisting the urge, then two brief conversations with that Richard Bridge chap and I'm on ebay bidding on guitars again.
Al


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 03:01 PM

I kept buying lap steels and Hawaiian Guitar sheet music.
I had 13 lap steels.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Mooh
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 10:04 PM

As a personal credo, buying used is perfectly fine. I subscribe some of the time, sometimes I'm simply let my lust take over. There really can't be a described need anymore, other than my professed want for different tones and tones that are missing from my collection. Seriously, if the right terz or tenor guitar appeared, new or used, it would be mine. Generally I don't buy new acoustics unless it's being built for me. My electrics seem to be half new, half used. All that aside, I buy less as I get older, and the trend is towards used.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 12:44 AM

Yea. Experienced players only care about tone.
Looks are secondary. My LGO looks like a beat up piece of crap.
But what tone.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 01:48 AM

Not necessarily, Henry. I'm experienced, and I'll admit that tone is the first concern I have with guitars, but it's certainly not the only thing I care about. I also care plenty about their appearance, and I care plenty about their playability (that is, the action, the general setup, the neck profile, etc.).

So I'm looking for 3 things in a guitar:

Sound Quality
Appearance
Playability

And the only guitars I end up buying are the ones that score high on all three. That doesn't mean they have to be new...some used guitars do score high on all three. If a guitar is all beat up looking or what I would call "ugly" looking, which is a matter of personal taste, though, then I'm not going to be too interested.

For instance, I wouldn't buy a Gibson Hummingbird, new or used, if it was the best damned sounding guitar ever made. They look like a cheap Las Vegas whore, and they have all the design subtlety of a monster truck at a demolition derby as far as I'm concerned. ;-)


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 01:28 PM

Wow, I wonder where my old Hummingbird is now? Probably standing on a street corner in fishnet stockings and stiletto heels with a cigarette dangling from her lips.


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 02:22 PM

My Sheraton is pretty garish. But it's grown on me. And killer tone. I just picked up an Epiphone Les Paul Ultra for $200. In excellent condition.
I'll either double my money or keep it to play.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 02:28 PM

Could be, gillymor! ;-) You just can't trust 'em.


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 04:28 PM

I currently own two Spanish made guitars and one Japanese made guitar, along with two travel guitars, one nylon-string and one steel-string, made in San Diego.

The Japanese guitar was imported by San Diego luthier José Oribé and after checking its general quality, authorized it to be sold under his label. Rosewood back and sides and cedar soundboard. Like a number of Japanese-made classics, its headstock design and general appearance is the same as the José Ramirez concert guitar that Andrés Segovia played.

A few years ago, I was asked to do a program of folk songs for the Seattle Classic Guitar Society (of which I was a charter member back in 1958) and I used the Japanese "Oribé" to accompany myself. Several people in the SCGS own Ramirez concert guitars (a lot of very high priced lumber appears in those meetings) and since my guitar looks—and sounds—like a Ramirez, everybody assumed that it was!

Not a bad deal. At the time I bought the "Oribé," I paid $350 for it. A concert Ramirez sold for upwards of $3,000. I like my Japanese guitar.

I also have a Juan Alvarez (a "student guitar" made by one of Arcangel Fernandes's apprentices and under his supervision) that I bought when I was going to the Cornish College of the Arts music conservatory. Good classic, good sound and it plays well, but for about $175 at the time, it was essentially a "beater." Served me well.

The flagship of the fleet is my Arcangel Fernandez flamenco guitar. I bought it direct from the luthier in Madrid. Made to order, and in 1961 I paid about $175 for it, which included air freight from Madrid and about 35% duty. Outrageous guitar! Spruce soundboard, Spanish cypress back and sides. Loud, warm sounding, and it definitely speaks Spanish! Lean into it a bit and it has a real bite.

I knew this was not just an ordinary guitar, so recently I looked it up on the internet and discovered at the web site of a guitar broker—not Ebay or anything like that, but the kind of place that deals in only top-quality instruments, that the 1961 Arcangels are much sought after and are scarcer than hen's teeth! They had an Arcangel listed (1961, #153, mine is 1961, #136) with a price of $18,000!! I checked back a few days later and it had been sold.

Problem with a guitar like this is that I'm afraid to take it out of the house!

I find the little travel guitars quite handy. They both look like canoe paddles with strings, but other than their sound being a bit thin, it IS pretty good, and I've used the nylon string one for a number of performances (real easy to pack around), and I've been asked a couple of times if it were a period instrument of some kind.   Go-guitar, being checked out by Sam Radding.

####

This business of jumping guitar makers for using rare woods is like swatting mosquitoes and letting tigers run free! The reason woods like Brazilian rosewood, generally considered to be the best wood for guitar backs and sides (because it is hard and dense, reflects sound well, AND looks very nice), is getting scarce is that 1) furniture makers use it a lot because it's hard and dense and it looks nice (surprise surprise!!). And 2) some years back, Brazil, wanting to encourage agriculture, allowed the chopping down and burning of millions of board-feet worth of trees in the rain forests in order to create farmland.

It backfired, because they managed to get crops for a couple of years, then nuthin'! When they chopped down and burned the trees, they also burned the nutrient reserve of the soil—the trees themselves, which had been living and dying and generally recycling themselves for millions of years.

Not to mention the tons of carbon dioxide that the rain forests took out of the atmosphere and gave back as the oxygen we need to breathe.

It ain't nice to screw around with Mother Nature!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 04:52 PM

Plenty of great used guitars out there. Never getting played. Sitting in a closet. Or under a bed.
Let the trees live.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: New Guitars?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 04:57 PM

I recently bought a classical for $45. A Yamaha. Wonderful tone. Turned around and sold it for $150. People are selling those unplayed guitars cheap.
Might as well try to make a buck.
(:-( ))=


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