Fairport on BBC4 Tonight

Subject: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 09:25 AM

Repeat? Not sure but even so....

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Judy Dyble
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 09:39 AM

It's a new documentary celebrating their 45 years as a band followed by a recording of the last night of their Wintour at the Union Chapel, London, followed by a repeat of the RT documentary 'A Solitary Life'

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Judy Dyble
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 09:55 AM

There is a little clip here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mmw5v

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 10:50 AM

9 pm Fairports
10 pm Fairports
11 pm Richard Thompson
12 pm Folk on the Beeb

Who needs the Trans Atlantic (excluding the English) Sessions?

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 01:17 PM

Coo - Judy Dyble! Still swooning over Chelsea Morning & that beautiful, beautiful, beautiful super-cool groovy sexy first album which still glistens fresh as the morning dew. It was all downhill after that, y'know... (hastily inserts emoticon in deep dread of Mudcat moaners) ;-]

Confrontation Viper - how's that for an anagram, eh???

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 01:21 PM

Several of us will be looking to see if we're in the crowd shots. Media tarts you see.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 05:13 PM

Just saw Moore Moss Rutter onstage at Cropredy. Now THAT was worth finding the switch on the telly for.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Fidjit
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 05:27 PM

Followed the first program and now into the concert.

You keeping well Judy ?

Chas

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Judy Dyble
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 06:13 PM

Yes fine thankyou Chas Fidjit. Still singing....

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: My guru always said
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 06:17 PM

This was a good evening to stay in & watch TV!

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 06:35 PM

A rare evening in for me, but baby-sitting the grandson - and a really good one. Even got the ironing done!

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 04:30 AM

I caught the 10pm concert by chance. I was thoroughly impressed by the superb standard of the instrumental playing but, I have to say, I was slightly less than impressed by the vocal performances - some feeble singing and what sounded like off-key parts here and there to me.

My wife emerged from the kitchen at one point and said, "Who's doing that dreadful singing?" - so I wasn't entirely alone in my view. And before I get a hail of irate ripostes I should add that I have great respect for the music of FC - but I've heard them sing better than that on other occasions.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 05:42 AM

I will not comment on Swarb's playing at the Cropredy warm up last month.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,David Owen
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 08:58 AM

oh god it was awful - just confirmed my opinion that Liege and Lief is a pile of plodding, pub rock rubbish. Dire from start to finish.
What kind of idiots voted that 'best folk album of all time' ? Have they never listened to Handful of Earth or Penguin Eggs....
I'm sure they're all lovely people but musically it's dull, dull, dull.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 09:33 AM

My God David! I bet Nic Jones loved Liege and Lief!
One thing I would say is that I've always thought that Richard's guitar playing could have fitted in better.
It's probably more to do with the sound he got back then rather than the actual notes.
For example, if the mature Mark Knopfler (who - it has to be said - was massively influenced by Richard) could have played on those tracks I think he would have done a better job.
Indeed, I suppose they could - with technical wizardry, even now, replace Richard with Mark on those tracks. Now there's a thought!

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 10:06 AM

I watched with interest as I am of their generation - They seem not to have aged very well as I have still got my mop of mostly dark grey hair

Singing was dire and they missed a lead singer - playing was good but to me lacks the verve of Bellowhead or Steeley Span The phrase concept album I am afraid makes me look for the exit   I think RTs guitar playing is overrated myself

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 11:30 AM

There is doubtlessly little point responding to this, but here I am...

David Owens,

You may detest 'Liege and Lief'. That is your opinion, and as such fair enough. However, to describe it as a pile of plodding, pub rock rubbish is not an opinion. It is factually wrong.

In case you are unaware, 'Pub Rock' was a musical scene that developed in the mid 70's in the UK. It was most prevelant in South East England. Dr Feelgood were, perhaps it's finest exponents. Are you really telling me that this splendid as it is, has much to do with 'Crazy Man Michael'?

And, Tunesmith. Would Mark Mark Knopfler have done a better job than RT? Bollocks!

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 01:37 PM

This is a song that Richard supposedly wrote about Mark Knopfler. I wonder what he did to upset RT?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5GshY7CEEA

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,David Owen
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 01:39 PM

My name is David Owen - please do me the courtesy of spelling it correctly - as least I use my own name....
I am well aware of what pub rock is and when it developed.
I really don't care for your pedantic chronological accuracy.
It's still a plodding, boring, dire, dreary, dismal record that has absolutely NOTHING to do with rock music. Calling it 'folk rock' is an insult to rock music.
It doesn't stand the test of time.
Classic albums should stand the test of time. They are timeless.... Sgt Peppers. The Stone Roses. Sex Pistols. Dylan. The Stones. Pyschocandy.....oh the list goes on - but L & L should not be on it.
I keep hearing people say "oh you had to be there at the time...." but I wasn't - so I assume that I will still be moved by it's greatness, still feel the raw energy and excitement....but I don't - I just hear plodding bass and drums and average production and I'm bored to tears with the way everyone holds it up as some kind of benchmark, some kind of highpoint....
So you can criticise the accuracy, or inaccuracy, of my 'pub rock' reference - it doesn't really matter, it was just a shorthand reference point to describe the overall sound of a leaden, lumpen, dinosaur of an album that is, at best, average.
As I said....Penguin Eggs....Handful of Earth.... go on, listen to them again this evening. They stand the test of time. L&L doesn't.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 02:02 PM

I'm with David Owen spot on lad Oh! and Ed your first name wouldn't be Dick by any chance?

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 02:02 PM

Liege and Lief is deservedly one of the best folk records of all time. Rekindled my move of folk music back in the 60s and I still play it regularly today. I suspect that without it there would be no Penguin Eggs or many other folk albums.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Klumper
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 02:12 PM

everyone knows the greatest ever Folk Rock LP was "Led Zep III"

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 02:31 PM

I was there at the time when Liege and Lief was released and can thus guarantee that the effect on the music scene was truly seismic. I was working at Cecil Sharp House where various Fairport members called in most days to research tunes and lyrics. Whether or not you happen to like the finished product it is undeniable that its influence has been far-reaching and continuous. It was fascinating for me to recall those times as well as the press conference that Dave Swarbrick convened a couple of years later to show us the old newspapers he had discovered concerning John "Babbacombe" Lee, the man they couldn't hang and his plans for a folk opera. This, presumably, is the "concept album" referred to so disparagely above. It is, however, a true story, one of the English legal system's mysteries and thus worthy of such chronicling. I adore Handful Of Earth and indeed most of Dick Gaughan's work though I cannot say quite the same about all of Nic Jones' back catalogue of earlier work, as indeed neither does he. He describes a lot of it as "some nice songs, some crap" as it surely was. No artist expects everyone (includeing themselves) to like absolutely everything they have done throughout eternity. Tastes alter with time and experience.I believe he prefers Radiohead and Bob Marley these days.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 10:08 PM

I'm with David Owen to some extent - I don't think Liege & Lief stands the test of time other than possibly to people with lots of nostalgia who don't get out much musically any more. However I'm also with The Borchester Echo in acknowledging its immediate effects when it came out. Unfortunately its longer term effects have been in persuading second rate sub-pub-rock musicians that teaming up with people who can't play folk music very well might be a combination worth pursuing. I'd say the early Steeleye Span records pre-drummer have stood the test of time better. The moment they added the drummer it also started making them sound ploddy and dated.

These days both bands are utterly dreadful and should have been pensioned off years ago, along with the Albion Band (including the new one). Folk rock was a half-baked idea that had a few great moments but has outstayed its welcome by about 35 years. The Fairport concert televised on Friday was dull, boring and a very bad advert for a currently thriving, energetic folk scene full of great young (and some old) imaginative musicians. And the singing was utterly dire.

And Guest Klumper, everybody knows the greatest ever Folk Rock LP was "London Calling". ;-)

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 03:56 AM

This is a song that Richard supposedly wrote about Mark Knopfler. I wonder what he did to upset RT?

"Supposedly" is the word here - proof? None that I know. Like all good songwriters - Paul Simon, Randy Newman, etc., RT can create a song narrator and a narration which doesn't necessarily bear any relation to him, the writer.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 04:03 AM

I think RTs guitar playing is overrated myself

Depends on the criteria you use to rate guitar playing, really, doesn't it? I love his originality and daring, the sound he gets, his technique, the way he stretches himself across solos in a way that not many other players do.

There's a lovely video of him duetting with Alistair Anderson at a live concert - Madame Bonaparte - which demonstrates all these things.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 04:49 AM

Re The Richard Thompson/Mark Knopfler connection.
Here is an extract form an 1980s Guitar Player magazine interview with
Mark.

Interviewer: "Another guitarist to whom you bear a remarkable similarity is Richard Thompson".

Knopfler: "Well, I haven't really heard much of Richard Thompson's stuff. I saw him play live years ago with his then-wife [Linda Thompson] and enjoyed it very much. But I've only listened to one of his records.Around the time Dire Straits was starting, we were all in this house, and John [Illsley] hadone of his records. I haven't really kept up with him, but I mean to do something about that. We've both done folk music and things, so there's probably quite a lot of common ground. I think I was probably more into the blues, while he was doing Fairport Convention".

Well, I think Mark is being untruthful here!
There is so much about Knopfler's playing that screams "Richard Thompson!" that makes me believe that Mark listened to Richard a great deal.

Maybe, Mark felt that admitting Richard's huge influence would in some way diminish his reputation.
If that is so, then Mark should be ashamed of himself.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss (remember him?)
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 05:08 AM

Well, I so seldom get folk fixes these days that I was delighted to find the Fairtions on my telly box on friday. I greatly enjoyed the evening so I brose in here to see if anyone else had. Oh dear.

I don't really know why I'm writing this but it makes a change from my current finger-fodder, so why not?

First, what on earth is wrong with 'plodding'? In terms of perambulation speed it's the ideal pace for taking in views both panoramic and detailed, and - quite rightly - the Fairps recognised that this was the ideal tempo for the genre they were creating: Moving forward at the right speed, with just the right amount of energy for the story. If you're going to add a back-beat to a narrative song you need to make sure that the energy does not overpower the action (something many folk-rock bands fail to understand). L and L was hugely successful because it worked - then, and it still does now. Countess Echo has it on the nose.

As for "persuading second rate sub-pub-rock musicians that teaming up with people who can't play folk music very well might be a combination worth pursuing" yes it absolutely did and what ever's wrong with that? Consenting adults having good clean fun, and many still do. I was one myself, and through my clumsy early attempts I learned, and developed, and grew - to become the shining beacon of cheerful mediocrity that I'm now so proud of briefly having been.

Richard has written some of the finest songs ever penned, period. Dimming of the Day is a masterwork in the understated delivery of raw emotion, harmonic power, lyrical simplicity and melodic originality. Heck, it even has a trad reference or two. Vincent, Walzing, God Loves a Drunk, Wall of Death, Bohemia - the list is endless. And when he wants to he can play as sweetly and commercially as any guitarist who's ever lived, but - because he's one of the few who can, and he wants to - mostly he chooses to challenge our pre-conceptions of what the six-string guitar is for, and as such has beneficially influenced thousands of guitarists.

As for the Confairs today; well, they are charmingly disarming about being their own tribute band, and considering they've loved and lost three or more of the greatest talents of the late 20th C uk scene, they do pretty darn well in my opinion.

Peggy's bass - well, please. Just stop and listen. The guy's simply fabulous, and Gerry - goodness me, fantastic and original playing always.

Poor singing? I'm sorry, but to my ears Simon's delivery of Fotheringay was as good as any I've ever heard, and with the right material he's sublime.

As for the material, well my reputation for never criticising other artists probably correctly outweighs my reputation as a songwriter, so I wouldn't dream of casting aspersions on a few of the newer songs (and I'll leave it to my pretend friend to suggest they made a mistake in turning down songs offered to them by a writer of my intimate acquaintance), but the newer instrumentals are epic - more Stackridge than Swarb, and all the better for it.

And can I just finish to say how nice it was to hear Judy again. That first album blew me away, and it was her voice that was the wind.

Lots of love

Emeritus R. Tist (hugely influenced by FC and proud to be a fan today)

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 05:18 AM

"other than possibly to people with lots of nostalgia who don't get out much musically "

Stupid, ignorant comment from an understandably anonymous poster.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Les from Hull
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 08:54 AM

Well said Tom. You've just saved me a lot of typing.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 09:15 AM

i assumed that richard thompson song about 'geordie' was about sting -not mark knopfler. RT can do very little wrong in my eyes -but i felt that song was unnecessary and not very good.
good to read that some folk are not too impressed with leige and lief. i had always thought i must be missing something that everyone else could see. it's ok - quite good- but far from the best folk album of all. better than blood on the tracks? (is that folk?) blue? handful of earth?
RT had the real talent within fairports and when he left it was like csn without y. or the french national side since zidane retired.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 09:48 AM

Interestly,I wasn't into Leige and Leaf at the time of it's release, but I've been doing some catching up on music that I missed back then.
Well, it is fabulous!
All I can say to the doubters, is what's wrong with great songs, great arrangements, great singing and great playing?
I'm pretty sure that album will be listened to a thousand years from now, and there are not many recordings of that stature around.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 09:57 AM

I was going to try a reasoned post like Tom and Diane, but I'm too old and it's pointless.

"Plodding", "Second rate" "nostalgia" "don't get out much musically" blahdey blahdey blah, can we please have some links from these people to THEIR God-like efforts? Compositions? Recordings? Published articles?

Christ, I can just see them spilling their takeaway pizzas on their keyboards while they weave fantasies about becoming the next Julie Burchill.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 10:31 AM

I have just seen the RT duet As a guitarist he is not in the highest class - as a songwriter no argument. He cannot keep up with the concertina properly There are players who can do this - that was my point

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 11:04 AM

I was going to try a reasoned post like Tom and Diane, but ... it's pointless.

You may well be right, Edthefolkie.

I am however going to raise a couple of points.

I was born in 1967, and was 2 when Leige and Leif was released. The 'nostaglia' arguement clearly dosen't apply to me.

Also, the 'anti' Leige and Leif posters seem to dislike that idea that it was voted "best" folk album by Radio 2 listeners. It wasn't, it was voted "Most influential Folk Album". There is a big difference. Clearly defining 'best' is subjective and a fool's errand on anyone's part. Arguing that it wasn't infuential is clearly wrong.

David Owen,

Firstly, apologies for misspelling your name. An unintentional typo I can assure you.

You call the album a "dismal record that has absolutely NOTHING to do with rock music" Ok, that's your opinion, fair enough. However, you mention both The Beatles' Sgt Pepper and The Sex Pistols as being classic 'Rock'

However, if 'She's Leaving Home' and 'Pretty Vacant' are both 'Rock' by your clearly wide ranging definition, can you tell me why Fairport's 'Tam Lin' isn't please?

Keith Price,

You ask, Ed your first name wouldn't be Dick by any chance?

No, it's Ed. If I were called Dick, I would sign myself by that name. But why did you feel the need to post something unpleasant like that?

Ok, that's about it...

One final thing, I not a huge Fairport fan, I've got the first four or five albums, went to a couple of Cropredys in the '80s, but that's about it.

I personally like 'What We Did On Our Holidays' better, but is there really a need to be so incredibly negative about a pretty damn good and influential album?

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,David Owen
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 02:00 PM

I didn't suggest that Sgt Peppers etc were classic 'rock' albums - my list of albums were those that are regarded as 'classic' or 'genre defining' - you can add anything else to that list as you see fit, Beach Boys, Miles Davis, Amy Winehouse etc... they don't have to be rock....

"Plodding" is fine - if you're a dinosaur an elephant or a pensioner - but plodding is NOT fine if you are trying to make rock music.

And, yes, I will admit that there is a slight difference between 'best album' and 'most influential album' - however, that still doesn't change the fact that it's awful !

My opinion - and you're welcome to your own - I was just challenging the seemingly overwhelming and blinkered and unbalanced opinion of so many people who seem to hold L&L in such high regard and automatically assume that everyone else agrees with them.
I can appreciate it's position in the whole history of folk music - I watched the documentary because I feel it is important to know the facts before challenging other peoples opinions. I don't wish to just spout rubbish or vent my spleen without good reason or having taken a considered balanced view first.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 02:04 PM

"if you're a dinosaur an elephant or a pensioner "

You really are an ageist fuckwit.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 02:33 PM

I was enjoying this thread. I'm not a huge Fairport fan but enjoyed the programme and I love RT. But why does every thread on Mudcat turn into insults and nastiness? Can you go back to talking about the programme?

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: fat B****rd
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 03:04 PM

it's just the way it goes, Chris. As a non folkie I enjoyed seeing some good musiciand and interesting footage. But -pedant alert- did Frank Skinner actually say that John Babbacombe Lee was sentenced to life by hanging?.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 06:19 PM

Yes, he did. But the first two attempts were, presumably, just that.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Johnmc
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 04:18 AM

I agree with TUNESMITH who says Nic Jones would have liked L and L if for no other reason than he has often professed a liking for rock and electric guitars. An example of how we should avoid jumping to conclusions about musical heroes.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST, Paul Slade
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 04:33 AM

The "sentenced to life" thing made me jump too. No-one at the BBC seems to check scripts any more.

I agree that the singing was by far the weakest element of that gig - though the extended instrumental passage at the end of Celtic Moon was terrific. I noticed in the documentary that someone from the band (Thompson?) said it was only when they got a first-rate singer in Sandy Denny that the early Fairport thought they'd really become a complete band. Seems some sort of circle has closed here, and they find themselves lacking a singer again.

Also, wasn't that James May playing banjo on Matty Groves?

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,David Owen
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 10:11 AM

"if you're a dinosaur an elephant or a pensioner "

"You really are an ageist fuckwit."

No quite sure why saying that makes me ageist...
Perhaps you need to invest in a dictionary Leveller......perhaps then you could explain to us all why making reference to an elephant makes me ageist....or reference to a dinosaur makes me ageist......
I can understand why YOU may have thought that referring to pensioners might be interpreted as ageist...but I wasn't being ageist at all....in any way.....how did you come to that conclusion ? Which bit of my statement that 'plodding is ok for pensioners' is ageist ? It's just a statement of fact.

Get back to me when you've looked it up in your dictionary....

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Rumncoke
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 10:30 AM

I can agree that they did rather sound like a group of musicians in need of a good singer or three.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 11:02 AM

"No quite sure why saying that makes me ageist...
"

Really? In that case you're an even bigger moron that I suspected.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: RTim
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 11:16 AM

This has been an interesting thread to read, as I hope to see the films, that my daughter has recorded, on my upcoming trip back home to the UK.
I have always enjoyed Fairport and have very good friends in the band and I used to live locally, which I maybe why I like them certainly more than Steeleye Span - but that is because I have always disliked Maddy Prior's singing!! Again personal tastes!!

I am however surprised at the negativity by some regarding Richard Thompson's guitar playing, which I consider sublime. If you are not convinced by listening to early Fairport or even his own recordings, can I suggest you listen to a recording called - Bones of All Men, by Phil Pickett. RT plays guitar on this and it is superb.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bones_of_All_Men

Please note - I do not criticize others personal tastes - Folk Music is a broad church, thank goodness.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 11:28 AM

I've recorded but not got round to watching the Doc & Gig yet.

All I can say is that in the 70s I was very aware of their LP titles and sleeve art
via the free annual Island Records catalogue,
but for some reason I never heard any of their albums.
Even though I was a teenager in search of good folk rock...

It's a complete mystery to me now why they escaped my attention.
Were they never on the Whistle Test or Top of the Pops...???
Or John Peel's late night radio show ???

Local older hippy dope dealers introduced me to bands
with at that time little or no current media presence
such Pentangle & Gong
when we youngsters were learning the intricate rituals and etiquette
of joint making & smoking in the comfort of their squats;

but I don't remember knowing anyone who ever played me any Fairports..???

Finally got round to seeing them live about 5 to 8 years ago
and thought they were excellent entertainment,
especially the fiddle playing.

So aquired loads of their CD back catalogue which I enjoyed to varying extents...

Then saw them again a couple of years later
and was disapointed that their new set seemed focused mainly
on dull country & westernish MOR easy listening songs.

So don't think I'd bother paying to ever see them again.

Unless this televised recent gig convinces me otherwise..

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 11:32 AM

I really enjoyed the documentary - for those of us who are slightly younger (not much, I grant you) and not steeped in FC lore it was useful to get a feel for where they came from. Great to see Kat & Jamie get their (first?) 15 mins of fame!

The concert was OK, I thought the older material was stronger than the newer (but then Hiring Fayre and Matty Groves are pretty sublime musically IMHO) but I agree that the singing was not in the same league as when Sandy Denny handled vocal duties...... no surprise there though, she was simply one of the best singers ever to take a breath. I really really like the contrast of female vocals with a rockier backing.

RT is a hugely talented guitarist and one of the best songwriters..... I really don't know how anyone can argue with that. Personal taste I guess. I've never been a huge fan of his singing....... but my wife tells me I'm wrong on that!

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,David Owen
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 12:17 PM

ooh Leveller....how cutting...what wit....But you still can't find a dictionary and answer my question, can you ?
No.
Because you're an illiterate fool.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 02:09 PM

There's a new, low-price, Fairport compilation CD, Meet on the Ledge The Collection Spectrum SPEC2107.

18 tracks, half with Sandy Denny, and just £3 in Sainsbury's!

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 03:21 AM

"Because you're an illiterate fool."

Well, at least I'm not a bigot like you.

OK, now that I have a couple of minutes to waste, let me spell it out for you. I don't need a dictionary to define "ageist"; for the last 10 years I've worked with various organisations to actively promote a positive image of older people and to end the negative stereotyping and hurtful, derisive comments that are so often applied to the older generations. So, perhaps you would explain to me how lumping an older age group alongside elephants and dinosaurs as being the ones who would enjoy "plodding" music is NOT derogatory. Would the same be true if, instead on an age group, you had cited an ethnic group, people with a disability or those of a particular sexual orientation?

To get back to the matter of Fairport and Liege and Lief, I was 20 when I first heard it and was excited by the innovation (and folk music played in RayBan Aviators…DUDES!). Since then, I've continued to enjoy it (and wear the RayBans) but I'm also loving watching the rise of new, young artists like Lucy Ward, Katriona Gilmore and Jamie Roberts, Blair Dunlop, The Old Dance School, etc. In fact, whilst taking a look at my CD collection, in the Ms alone, next to Ralph McTell, Mr Fox, Dougie Maclean and Mike and the Mechanics (how did they get there?) there are Mawkin, Megson, Mumford and Sons, Ewan McLennan, Laura Marling, Jim Moray....the list goes on.

Oh, and as for illiterate, perhaps you should check your own posts - hardly models of correct grammar and punctuation. Hoist by your own petard there, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 03:49 AM

Oh, I forgot to add: :)

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 04:14 AM

wot a surprise -some people really like leige and lief,others think it's ok and some don't like it all

some people really like fairports,others.....

this will be the pattern with whatever artist we choose to talk about. as it is a bit of a pointless discussion, maybe we make it more lively by insulting each other on whatever spurious 'reason' we can find. enjoyable, but stupid behaviour for intelligent people to chuck the insults about.

however, apart from a few brain-dead morons we can all agree that richard thompson is a top guitarist and an awesome live performer. and we (and esp fairports )miss sandy denny)

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Folknacious
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 01:36 PM

Well, I expect this'll get insults from the Levellers too, but to my taste . . .

The 60's part of the Fairport doc was inspiring, with Judy Dyble, Sandy Denny & RT. After that it was all downhill, charting their descent into a folk-influenced pub rock beery bloke band. The 2012 concert was really very tedious, especially the singing. The RT documentary was generally much better, reaching the peak of the whole evening with Linda Thompsons singing (and dignity) - though a little snippet of Bonnie Raitt singing RT song was pretty damn good too.

Moral: women bring artistic benefits, creativity and civilising effects to bands. Think how much better June Tabor & Oysterband are today than pretty much anything seen in that Fairport doc post-70's. All-bloke bands are invariably improved by female participation. Discuss . . .

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 05:24 PM

I missed the FC marathon - perhaps wisely, I have far more important things to do just now - but I too get rather bored by the endless feting, hyping, and lauding of FC, L&L, and Sandy Denny.

I like a great deal both of rock music and of folk music, it's the bastardisation of the two together that rarely works for me. I doubt if I've liked more than 5-10% of all the folk-rock I've ever heard, and certainly can't think of a single folk-rock album, FC's included, of which I like as many as a third or half the tracks, let alone all of them. Perhaps, if you choose to call them folk-rock which I'm not sure that I would, The Oyster Band came pretty close with Lie Back And Think Of England, and perhaps slightly less so with Liberty Hall - certainly both albums have some great tracks, and it's a crying shame that they are not available as CDs.

I can't agree in any way that L&L is either seminal or important, irrelevant is more the word that springs to my mind.

Sandy Denny always sounds to me like a poor man's wannabe Joni Mitchell. Whereas I still treasure two albums of Joni's - "Ladies Of The Canyon" and "Blue" - I can't think of any album of Sandy's work that I would wish to own. Although "Who Knows Where The Time Goes?" is rightly regarded as a brilliant track, it is only one track, whereas *every* track on those two Joni albums is at least very good, and many are brilliant, as are also quite a few from the album which came between them, "Clouds", which latter includes the originals of "Both Sides Now" and "The Fiddle And The Drum", which later June Tabor covered so well.

I just can't see it meself ... there was then and has been since so much better stuff out there ...

Perhaps if we could all remove the blinkered glasses for a moment, we could appreciate some of the other, arguably better music of the time that has somehow been largely forgotten.

The band Audience - variously described as art-rock, folk-rock, prog-rock - produced two eponymous albums, one so forgettable that it's only saved from utter wilderness by including "River Boat Queen", but the OTHER was absolutely brilliant, virtually every track a winner from start to finish! Fortunately, most of this latter LP ended up on the CD "Unchained", although I have often wondered why the single exception, the excellent "Elixir Of Youth", was dropped in favour of a mix of lesser tracks from other albums. They also produced an album called "Friend's Friend's Friend" which was, and maybe still is, available on CD, and which is almost as good.

Curved Air was another prog-rock band I listened to a great deal at the time. I think it's probably valid to compare Sonja Kristina with Sandy Denny, especially as she was at one time going to replace Sandy in The Strawbs, but she joined Curved Air instead. The band's first two albums, "Airconditioning" and "2nd Album" were particularly good, and although the rest of "Phantasmagoria" degenerated into wierdness, the first two tracks of it were among their best, and their fourth (I believe it was) album "Aircut" with a new line-up was also really good. Sonja, under her last name Linwood, is credited with contributions to most of their material. I particularly like tracks such as "Young Mother" and "Marie Antoinette".

But, although to my mind "Lie Back And Think Of England", "Liberty Hall", "Audience" (the one that opens with "Trombone Gulch"), "Friend's Friend's Friend", "Airconditioning", "2nd Album", and "Aircut" were all better than anything done by the folk-rock brigade, no-one talks of any of these albums in the same reverential tones.

There is no more artistic justice in this life than any other form of justice.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 06:08 PM

I agree about Audience - FFF was superb (I can't help thinking Jeremiah Caid was a prophesy for me personally!), and I'll never forget their drummer's bare-hands and hand-bell drum solos. Keith Gemmell, sax and cheroot, went on to join my all-time (including the latest line-up which is superb) favourite band, Stackridge - a co-incidence which then blew my young mind. But please don't call honest and passionate opinions 'blinkered.' That lowers you to the level of another young man of this parish with whom it's best not to bandy. Those who love L and L do so because it moves us. We were not brainwashed or duped. We heard the record and had an informed, independent and honest reaction. It slid into our souls. You would do well to understand and respect this. Curved Air were, in my opinion, quite good. Only. See? We disagree. But I'd never call you blinkered for liking sexy Sonja more than the complex, visceral, vulnerable and sadly venal Sandy. And while I'm at it - merely to prove that one man's meat is another's hummus - I love Joni's songs but could never listen to her voice. Still can't. Each to his own, tha' knows, and no need for insult.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 10:27 PM

All-bloke bands are invariably improved by female participation. Discuss . . .

The Beatles and Yoko?

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 02:48 AM

"Well, I expect this'll get insults from the Levellers too, but to my taste . . ."

Why? I was not commenting on people's differing opinions about Liege and Lief, I was taking David Owen to task for his crass and ignorant comments about "pensioners". An entirely different issue.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: fat B****rd
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 04:27 AM

Interesting band, Audience. The aforementioned drummer joined Hot Chocolate and the guitarist Howard Werth played an electric nylon strung Burns which when I saw them in the late 60s was quite a revelation. it's good to see
them mentioned here.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 08:40 AM

Punkfolkrocker - John Peel regularly played the early formations of Fairport Convention on his Top Gear programmes (I'm talking 1968/9 here). Not so sure about the L&L line up however.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 09:32 AM

Thanks, I'd completely forgot those radio sessions were one of the first Fairports CDs I acquired
soon after seeing them for the first time mid 2000s..

What I'm trying to figure out is how in the early to mid 70's
at a time when my folk rock tastes were forming
and Steeleye Span, Lindisfarne & Strawbs were storming the pop charts;
how I never heard any Fairports music played anywhere ???

I'm sure if I had I'd have got my hands on a their LPs
one way or another ???

Like I said, I was familiar with the LP titles and sleeves from the annual free Island Records catalogue
but can't remember ever seeing or hearing the Fairports on TV or radio,
or even any of my school mates recommending having a listen to them ????.

Had the fairports fallen out of favour with the mass media circa 1971 - 75;
approx when I was aged about 12 to 16 ????

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,David Owen
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 10:23 AM

Oh Leveller, you poor, sad, deluded man.
Pity you didn't get hold of that dictionary because once you'd finished looking up 'ageist' you could have flicked forward a few pages and looked up 'bigoted'

You are - to use your own words - a fuckwit and a moron.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 11:08 AM

"fuckwit fuckyou fuckwit fuckyou fuckwit fuckyou"


- an owl with Tourettes..



Blimey, Basil Brush's jokes are getting bluer in his old age !!!???

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Phil B
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 11:21 AM

Had a rare evening in and settled down to watch the show. Part of the weakness of the vocals was entirely due to the appalling mix I'm afraid. Simon has developed into a fine singer over the years and I also love Chris's voice. Admittedly I've had the pleasure and privilege of playing with these guys over the years so maybe I'm biased. If I'd never played the guitar but had just been a singer, Simon would be number one on my list of excellent and tasteful accompanists to work with. I would go as far as to say he is greatly underrated but then he's a modest bloke. I have also done some 10/12 shows opening for Richard and Linda in the early days and can vouch for the utter individuality of both his acoustic and electric playing. I know no other more inventive and unique sounding player. He simply and plainly does things that no other guitar player does.
Oddly enough, the album that ignited my interest was actually Full House. The sheer swagger of the opening bars of Patrick Spens rekindled my interest in the fiddle and I still don't think there's anything plodding or pedestrian about the approach. I love it.
The most important thing to say, however, is that AshleyH, Simon, Richard, DM, Swarb and Peggy et al are responsible for inventing something which wasn't there before. None of the rest of us will ever be able to make that claim. Some folks may not like it. Fair enough. Nevertheless, the world is better off with it than without it. Good luck to 'em.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 12:11 PM

I'm one of those sad pensioners who not only bought Liege and Lief when it came out, but also heard/saw Fairport in concert at the Royal Festival Hall in 1969, and it's still one of my alltime favourites. I suspect the reason I still love it is because I first heard it as a teenager - and because, while still a young, precocious and arrogant singer myself, I used to divide female singers into two categories:- the ones I loved to listen to and the ones who made me wish it was me singing the song instead. Sandy Denny was and still is always in the former category. And she was also great because she could switch compellingly between trad and self-penned (as can Banjiman's missus, whom I'd also put in the former category).

Kitty

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 01:23 PM

Punkfolker and Dave Sutherland (aha Dave, when are you going to persuade Shirley Collins to do another show at Tigerfolk?) The Liege and Lief lineup of Fairport definitely did do a John Peel Session, I think September 1969. They performed Tam Lin, Reynardine and The Lady Is A Tramp (RT lead vocal!) Maybe more. There is an openreel tape of it in our loft somewhere.

There is also a tape somewhere of the John Peel Carol Service either that year or 1970. Rod Stewart singing Away In A Manger, Sonja Kristina singing Silent Night. Apparently Sonja was drafted in after Sandy Denny phoned in sick.


Probably the reason Fairport didn't get noticed by Punkfolkrocker is that they were slightly er, disorganised between 1971 and 1973!


I guess this just proves that I am a dinosaur, a pachyderm and a pensioner.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST, Paul Slade
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 07:41 PM

Ken Garner's Peel Sessions book - the standard reference on such matters - lists a Fairport session of Sept 27, 1969, featuring Sir Patrick Spens, Jigs & Reels, Medley, The Lady Is A Tramp and Reynardine.

There's no carol service listed in 1969, but there is one listed for December 26, 1970. The only artists mentioned are The Rudies, however. Maybe that's what Peel called the impromptu band you have in mind?

Facts - I love 'em.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 03:29 AM

"Oh Leveller, you poor, sad, deluded man."


Well, at least you've dropped the 'illiterate' which, coming from someone whose command of the English language is, to say the least, cursory, I found most amusing. My need for a dictionary obviously isn't as pressing as yours. Indeed, if I need to find the meaning of a word, I can just call my old friend, the esteemed lexicographer, Tony Cowie , who is also my son's godfather.

As for 'sad', I'm actually happy to have been able to pull up an ageist bigot, and as for 'deluded' - not in the least; I can certainly recognise ageism, racism, sexism, homophobia and other prejudices when I see them and I'll continue to fight against them and people like you who perpetrate them.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 04:01 AM

The Peel Carol Service is the stuff of legend featuring an all-star line-up including more typical underground Peel fodder such as Robert Wyatt and Ivor Cutler alongside Marc Bolan and Rod Stewart. For more on this see HERE. There is a photograph (included in Mike King's Wrong Movements - A Robert Wyatt History) but I haven't been able to track it down on line.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: davyr
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 04:34 AM

punkfolkrocker said "but can't remember ever seeing or hearing the Fairports on TV or radio".

It was claimed in Friday's documentary that Fairport only ever appeared on TV once.

I remember seeing them twice, both times on Top Of The Pops. On the first occasion (1969), they performed Si Tu Dois Partir, with Ashley Hutchings dressed as a French Onion Johnny, bowing a double bass with a baguette.

The second appearance was in TOTP's "album spot", a short-lived experiment which allowed bands to perform two tracks from a recently-released LP, but only on condition that they agreed to mime.

Fairport played the title track from Angel Delight (so it must have been summer 1971), followed by the instrumental medley. In protest at having to mime, Swarb very slowly and deliberately put down his mandolin and picked up his fiddle, thus ensuring that the second tune of the medley was well underway by the time he started "playing". Dave Mattacks wore a T-shirt with "I am miming" on the front.

I also remember Tony Blackburn (!) playing "John Lee" (which Fairport released as a single from the Babbacombe Lee album) on his Radio 1 breakfast show in November 1971. He obviously didn't play it by choice, as he made a sarky comment to the effect that he "supposed Fairport fans would like it..."

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 04:48 AM

Dave Mattacks wore a T-shirt with "I am miming" on the front.

I've a distinct memory of a follow-up TV appearance in which Mattacks had swapped the 'Miming' shirt for one that read 'Bored Stiff'. Please tell me I didn't imagine it.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Brakn
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 05:05 AM

Wasn't there a documentary, late 60s 70s, about music in London in which FC played "Now Be Thanful"? I know it was on Virgin Arts a couple of months ago.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,Folknacious
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 09:10 AM

Anyway, all tune in to BBC4 tomorrow night for the "Folk blues & beyond" concert with the two Toms - Paley and Jones, Yes, that one. I'm not making this up.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,David Owen
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 09:55 AM

Leveller - you really have got NO IDEA what you are talking about.
Go back to stroking your beard and moaning about the miners strike.
I'm out of here now, you're boring me.
And if you ever dare to suggest that I'm racist or sexist I'll happily get my lawyer to sue your miserable sorry arse.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 11:26 AM

So then, it appears the Fairports peaked around 69/70
then all but disappeared from wider public awareness;
and the growing pop chart success of the 'folk rock' bands that followed afterwards..

One of the very first 7" singles I bought for myself out of my own saved up pocket money
was "Lindesfarne's "Lady Eleanor" on it's re-release in 1972.

My early teen enthusiasm for music was dominated by the commercial folk rock of Lindisfarne
[& to a lesser extent Steeleye Span],
and the more exciting glam rock of Bowie and Alice Cooper.

Just wonder what difference might have been if I'd had the chance to hear the Fairports as well
at that crucial stage of my developing musical horizons..???

In the mid 70s my favourite 'folk rock' band was Lindisfarne breakaway act "Jack the Lad".
After witnessing their energetic aggressive shovel dance
as highlight of a televised gig on "Geordie Scene"
I immediately went out to the shops to get their LP...

1975 my 2 favourite bands were Dr Feelgood and Jack The Lad.
I was teaching myself to play guitar to their LPs.....


Then in late 76 punk rock happened...

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 12:23 PM

. But why does every thread on Mudcat turn into insults and nastiness?

Amen.

"Good morning"

"How dare you say it's a good morning - it's a rotten morning for mnay people, and you are just sneering at them."

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 04:55 AM

The Clash of the Century: David Owen and his Lawyer versus The Leveller and his Lexicographer. Book your seats now...

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 05:52 AM

sounds like the title of a modern classic steampunk graphic novel...???

is there a parental warning for graphic language and extreme violence !!!???

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 06:18 AM

Fairport were booked to appear on Colour Me Pop on BBC2 TV (in colour!) in late 1969. However, they were unable to appear - I imagine that Sandy Denny had just left.

Undeterred, the BBC played Sir Patrick Spens from a radio session, with Sandy Denny singing and Swarb playing too. That was presumably from the Peel session of 27 September 1969. It deserved a place on Heyday but eventually emerged on Live at the BBC.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 09:31 AM

'Folk rock was a half-baked idea that had a few great moments but has outstayed its welcome by about 35 years.'

So says 'Guest' in the post above, 15 Sep 12 - 10:08 PM. Try telling that to the thousands that flock to Cropredy every year, or to the fans of the likes of Oysterband or the Demon Barbers, who sell out everywhere they perform, or those good people who rammed the festival marquee and bought bucketloads of CD's at Swanage Folk Festival this year when we performed.

And just to add another to the list above of Fairport's TV appearances, they did a televised concert in the (otherwise dreadful) series 'Cue the Music' presented by Pete Waterman, I've still got the video somewhere!

John

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 09:36 AM

Well, a week farther on and tonight's feature on BBC 4 is Tom Jones. Let's see how many fall outs there are about this.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 09:56 AM

It does strike me as strange when people with some kind of interest in folk music show this desperate appetite for novelty, so that something that was fine a handful of years becomes outdated and despicable within a couple of decades.

That isn't how folkmusic has ever worked. It's about building on the past, not rejecting it.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: davyr
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 12:51 PM

Bounty Hound said:

"And just to add another to the list above of Fairport's TV appearances, they did a televised concert in the (otherwise dreadful) series 'Cue the Music' presented by Pete Waterman, I've still got the video somewhere!"

How did I forget that? I've still got it somewhere as well! It was, however, presented by Mike Mansfield, I believe.

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 01:24 PM

My memory of the "TV" comment isn't that Frank Skinner said they'd "only appeared on TV once" but that they'd "only appeared on TOTP once".

Subject: RE: Fairport on BBC4 Tonight
From: G-Force
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 12:20 PM

'The Liege and Lief lineup of Fairport definitely did do a John Peel Session, I think September 1969. They performed Tam Lin, Reynardine and The Lady Is A Tramp (RT lead vocal!) Maybe more.'

I definitely remember hearing The Lady is a Tramp on the radio - it started with the worst (or best?) knock-knock I've ever heard:

RT: 'Knock knock'
All: 'Who's there?'
RT: 'Tickets to Hungary'
All: 'Tickets to Hungary who?'

And then straight into the song: 'Tickets to Hungary for dinner at eight ...'. All the better for being so unexpected.