can accompanists lift the music

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 09:30 AM

Michael Gill never said that, JACK CAMPIN CLAIMS HE SAID IT BUT HE DID NOT.
Steve, stop wasting everyones time, with your ridiculous liesand start reading properly, oh and stop being so patronising

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 10:01 AM

Shrek, I think you are starting to lose the plot

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 10:02 AM

its all abit confusing!

if you want to be a session player - can I recommend Alistair russell's insruction dvd on celtic accompaniment? Its a good starting off place.

If you don't want accompaniment, it as well to tell everybody at the session - that's what they've bought their instruments for. Most people respect that some people don't want accompaniment.

I'm sure no one would wilfully misrepresnt someone else's view - least of all GSS - who is a good egg.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 10:19 AM

I'm mildly amused by the idea that traditional tunes don't contain chords. A tune most players will be familiar with is Soldiers Joy. The first part is a series of arpeggios through the notes of a D chord with a couple of quick excursions to notes from A7. With the exception of a couple of notes in the upbeats it's all chordal. The second part has more passing notes but they are always between obviously chordal notes. I'm betting there is no shortage of other examples.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: John P
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 10:36 AM

Yes, most melodies have implied harmonic structure. What is more true, perhaps, is that many traditional tunes don't have a chord pattern. The accompanist does have to follow the structure of the tune. That being said, lots of tunes do have patterns. There's about 100 Em reels that all have the same chords, all in the same places.

Trying to make rules about what is or isn't included in the performance of traditional music is a very difficult undertaking. I don't think anyone will ever be successful at it, since there is no consensus amongst the traditional music practitioners. Perhaps the only rule should be "Don't tell others they are doing it wrong."

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 12:36 PM

One has to remember that a certain type of accompaniment may be harmonically appropriate, but still may not fit the style of music you are trying to playing, or the tastes of the people you are playing it with. This fits under the category of being "socially inappropriate", and can cause lots of problems.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 12:40 PM

I am annoyed, Steve Shaw and Jack Campin, have come on to this thread made false accusations, and claimed Michael Gill, said things that he did not, then brought in complete irelevancies, a couple of time wasting trolls.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 02:14 PM

off to play guitar in slow session, comprising mainly fiddlers. Four chords usually more than enough. Obviously should another guitarist turn up I will have to shoot Him/Her to prevent any accompanist discord.
john.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 07:03 PM

Stanron is incorrect in saying that tunes have chords, whereas John has it right when he says that tunes have implied harmony. The thing about that implied harmony is that it is in your head. Listen to those Bach cello suites, mostly single lines of melody (OK, with double-stopping in some places). Your head is full of harmony as you listen. You can hardly help it. As a chord is several notes played together, a tune can't have chords. Of course, tunes entirely without bits of arpeggios are hardly possible, and they may suggest harmony inside your head, but that is not the same thing as saying that tunes have chords.

And tunes have bits of scales too. Which is why traditional musicians don't have to worry about practising arpeggios and scales. You're practising arpeggios and scales when you play tunes anyway, and having a lot more fun to boot.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 07:05 PM

And stop sending me unpleasant private messages, please, Dick. If you do it again they'll come up here.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:29 PM

here is the private message, nothing i have not said already on this thread.
here is the message you are objecting to, a repeat of what i have said publicly
Message:
you are an unpleasant troll, michael gill never said what jack campin claimed he said, get off my back.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 12:50 AM

With some trepidatation, I feel compelled to cast my lot with Stanron and take exception Steve Shaw's assertion about chords. They can occur either vertically (which is to say, by sounding at the same time) or horizontally, (which is to say, sounding one after another). The tune has chords either way.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 02:40 AM

"can accompanists kill the music? Of course - so what?"
Says it all really.
As far as accompanying traditional singing is concerned, when an accompanist forgets that his/her job is to do just that - accompany, they can, and often do, sink a song deeper than the Titanic.
IMO, it is the function of an instrument to create a situation where a singer can interpret the song freely to an appropriate backdrop - get the balance wrong and it becomes either intrusive or unneccessary.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 06:27 AM

"Take exception"? Why not just disagree? Well I disagree with you. A chord is several notes sounded together, not "one after another." That's an arpeggio, old chap. A bit of an arpeggio in a tune (even two notes of what would be a chord, but played one after the other) can indeed suggest harmony to you. In your head. There would be several possible potential harmonies in many/most cases, but they are not part of the tune. They could form part of an arrangement which includes the tune. Perhaps you're a session strummer who's feeling a little got at.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 08:11 AM

rubbish , a chord can be three notes sounded one after another, while the other notes are held on, a very common practice on the concertina piano, organ etc.
you really are ignorant., as well as being patronising, there is no need to call anyone, old chap.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:31 AM

An arpeggio (plural arpeggi or arpeggios) is a musical technique where notes in a chord are played or sung in sequence, one after the other, rather than ringing out simultaneously. This word comes from the Italian word "arpeggiare", which means "to play on a harp." An alternate translation of this term is "broken chord."

Arpeggios allow monophonic instruments to play chords and harmony and help create rhythmic interest.
john

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:35 AM

For Steve Shaw

Google 'arpeggio define'

The first two replies are;

freedictionary.com
1. The sounding of the tones of a chord in rapid succession rather than simultaneously.
2. A chord played or sung in this manner.

dictionary.reference.com
1. the sounding of the notes of a chord in rapid succession instead of simultaneously.
2. a chord thus sounded.

If you don't like these It's OK by me for you to invent your own.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:10 AM

From the Oxford Concise Dictionary of Music:

A chord 'spread', ie the notes played from the bottom upwards or sometimes from the top downwards as on the harp.

If you play the notes of a chord successively in some other pattern it's called a broken Chord.

From the OCDM: A chord where the notes are played one after the other or a group followed by another group instead of simultaneously.

So, Steve, Stanron was in fact correct in his assertion that tunes have chords.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:16 AM

I'm more that a little annoyed with Jack for back referencing to the Session. The result has been that the thread has turned into a slanging match rather than a rational discussion about the role of accompaniment which it had the potential to be.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Elmore
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:38 AM

What could have been an interesting thread seems to have become a nasty, unpleasant exercise in egocentricity.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 12:04 PM

and the whole point is that I never mentioned the session, and michael gill never said what jack campin claimed, jack and steve have just been trolling and flaming

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 12:22 PM

and the whole point is that I never mentioned the session, and michael gill never said what jack campin claimed, jack and steve have just been trolling and flaming

As we say in Ireland (as you know) - "They're only trottin' after ye!"

Regards

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 03:45 PM

Or, perhaps, Steve, I have studied music and composition in some measure, and am merely trying to clarify a misunderstanding. We'll never really know...

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 03:52 PM

the gaberdine swine, trotting, rather like the unspeakable pursuing the uneatable, to quote oscar wilde, still I dont suppose steve shaw and jack campin would appreciate OSCARS comment

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 06:53 PM

If you play the notes of a chord one after the other with the earlier notes held, then of course it's a bloody chord! You can hear all three notes sounding at once. A chord. But if you play three notes of what would be chord, staccato, one after the other, or on an instrument that does not sustain the earlier notes, you are playing a single line of melody. Not a chord. I don't care whether you call it an arpeggio, a broken chord or Spot The Bloody Dog, a chord it is not. I'm so happy to clarify this for the silly sods who don't appear to get it, in particular Professor "Don't you know who I am?" Stim. And for Tootler, whose explanation above is, er, as clear as mud. I now have to ask myself whether I shall continue to allow a bunch of twits spoil my beautiful day...

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:08 PM

This thread reminds me of this scene from the movie "Cool Hand Luke."

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: mugwumps
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:08 PM

Why are orchestras popular? Why do record producers hire arrangers and studio musicians when they want a hit? Why do they use backup singers when they want a rousing chorus without raising the volume?
There are big name bands who make their living trying to play louder than their mates, but if you want to be popular, the main instrument, voice or other, must be right up front.
Still, who are these prima donnas who think they can't be improved upon? And where did all these off topic, hate Dick trolls come from?

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 08:44 PM

Are you Dick's uncle?

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:06 PM

I'm more that a little annoyed with Jack for back referencing to the Session. The result has been that the thread has turned into a slanging match rather than a rational discussion about the role of accompaniment which it had the potential to be.

Well, you're annoyed with the wrong person. The real "back-referencing" to the Session is glaringly obvious to those of us who contribute to both sites. Dick did what Dick has done before. He has form. He brings the ding-dongs he partakes in, and loses, from there to here. We know what he's up to even if you can't see it. Open your eyes.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:23 PM

This could have been a fairly informative thread, but it's degenerated into sumpin' rilly stoopud.

Whasamatayouguys!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 12:47 AM

Dick, you posted the same message from Jack Campin three times, and Jack himself posted it once in this thread. But the way you posted Jack's message, it was hard to tell what were Jack's words and what were yours. I attempted to pick out Jack's words and indent them. I hope I did it right. Doesn't seem to me that you should need to post the text of somebody's post a second time in a thread, not to mention a third and a fourth time. A summary of the general idea of the post you're responding to, should suffice - or just give the name of the poster and the date and time he/she posted.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 05:20 AM

yes, this could have been interesting ... if it wasn't for that twat.

So, for the record, what I said was:

"Of course accompaniment can lift the music, in many ways. But the only way it can lift the actual tune is by lifting the tune player i.e. indirectly. What accompaniment will always do, however, is obscure the tune. So it's a trade off. Can the accompanist lift the tune player enough to outweigh the obscuring? It's a big ask."


Anyway, I know it's just semantics, but the distinction between what the OCDM calls a chord and a "broken" chord interests me. One of the enduring qualities of tradition Irish dance tunes is their often harmonic ambiguity. I've never thought of it this way, but it's as if the harmony is broken.

So the accompanist must be aware of the ways they obscure the tune. Firstly, and most obviously, by simply making noises that aren't the tune. Secondly, and more subtly yet more damaging, by "fixing" the broken harmony. I use the word "fixing" as two of its definitions:
Fixing as in "mending". A tune's harmonic ambiguity does not ask to be mended. If you mend it , you loose a lot of it's beauty.
Fixing as in sticking. for example, fixing a bracket to a wall. A players ability to play harmonic and rhythmic variations is severely hindered when the tune is fixed to a wall.



listen to this fella.
A "must buy" CD for anyone who likes diddley music. Especially strummers.

http://macdara.bandcamp.com/album/ego-trip

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 05:26 AM

Don, the thread hasn't got a chance when it is conceived in such a dishonest manner. Dick hates Michael, Jack and me and he knows that two of us are here as well as on The Session. He brings his spats over here when he isn't getting anywhere over there because he knows that, at least, Michael isn't here. He's done it before. Try 23 September 2011, the thread "Is English traditional music rubbish?" And, to be honest, this topic has been done to death here, there and everywhere that traditional music is discussed in any case. There will be older threads I'm sure if you wish to resurrect one. I can't be arsed to look.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 05:28 AM

Michael wasn't here. :-)

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 09:27 AM

GUEST,michael gill

I agree with you that harmonic ambiguity is a pleasing characteristic of traditional tunes. I try to incorporate harmonic ambiguity into most of the music I play. It's polar opposite can be found in most modern jazz and always has me lurching towards the off switch.

I've posted before that I enjoy hearing a well played tune without accompaniment. I also believe that good accompaniment can add to the musical experience. It doesn't need to be chords or chord sequences. Enhancing the overall musical experience does not require the melody itself to change, but do you deny that some of the best players, accompanied or not change the melody as they play it?

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 09:36 AM

I meant to add to my last post that what makes the good players good is the range of subtle variations to the melody and the rhythm that they bring to the tune. It is very easy for these subtleties to be overwhelmed and obscured by inappropriate accompaniment, chordal or melodic. You really only hear these players at their best on their own or with one accompanist who really knows his stuff. To try and recreate those conditions in a session is at best wishful thinking

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 09:40 AM

Maybe a way to describe good accompaniment is 'you don't notice it's there but you'd miss it if it wasn't'
Personally, I've become very tired of ego-tripping wannabe Segovias getting between good songs and ballads and the listener
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 09:42 AM

Accompanists [imo] can lift the music.
Every body can see who brought the other discussion here and it was not me.
I do not hate anybody, I disagree with some of the other posters.
I wanted to discuss this subject with different people, not Michael Gill, I know his opinions which I disagree with,I can discuss anything with him on the session if i wish to,
Because I disagree with someone it does not mean I hate them.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 10:00 AM

Listen to this , cause I can hear melody, accompaniment, arpeggios, chords all part of a coherent whole. Nice music

Stu

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Mooh
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 10:17 AM

I get calls to accompany, on guitar, singers and melody instrumentalists. It helps them keep time, pitch, confidence, and fills out arrangements. Performed with some feeling it will lift the music. My role in duos I work with is to make the other half sound good. If they do, I do. Win win.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 10:37 AM

I have never once yet needed an accompanist to help me keep time. The idea that accompanists are somehow intrinsically better than melody players at keeping time is, frankly, risible. And Jim, do tell him. Good singers don't need you to keep pitch either. And the concept of "filling out" a good tune or song fills me with horror.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 10:54 AM

What is that dumbed-down harp arrangement of the Pachelbel Canon supposed to show? It's a contrapuntal piece, not a single-line melody (still less a folk tune), and the harp arrangement leaves out most of the interesting stuff.

This is more like it:

Voices of Music

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 10:55 AM

The Burnt Old Man (The Campbells Are Coming)
The Hair Fell Off Me Coconut(Wi' A Hundred Pipers )
Lord McDonald's
My Mary Ann (The Fife Hunt)
The Dogs Among The Bushes (Atholl Brose)
The Farewell to Ireland (The Highlander's Farewell To Ireland)
Lady Ann Montgomery
The Tarbolton (Tarbolton House)
The Boyne Hunt (The Perthshire Hunt)
The Mason's Apron
Mac's Fancy (McDonald of the Isles March to Harlaw)
Rakish Paddy (Cabar Feidh)
The Linen Cap (The Honourable Mrs. Moll's)
The Flogging (The Flagon)
The Farewell to Whisk(e)y
The Lakes of Sligo (The Lass O' Gowrie)
some more tunes that were originally scottish and have become part of the irish repertoire.
Good singers don't need you to keep pitch either". quote steve shaw
good singers can be good singers but their pitch can also fall a quarter of a tone or even a semitone during performance, that does not mean that they are not good singers., so yes a fixed instrument or a guitar can help someone to keep their original pitch, if that is what the singer desires.
Steve , this is the second comment you have made that shows your ignorance, the first one was about chords and was nonsense.
a good accompanist listens to the singer carefully and accompanies the same applies to accompanying tunes.
and yes I do know a lot about singing

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 11:24 AM

Mr Miles old chap. why did you list those tunes? Other than to bing thesession.org here?
see http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/30657
You are such a transparent, grudge-holding twerp.

And surely, if the argument about accompanists comes down to them helping singers or tune players who aren't very good, then very thin that argument is indeed.

Anyway, seeings as I began my post above with "Of course accompaniment can lift the music" and you then say, "I wanted to discuss this subject with different people, not Michael Gill, I know his opinions which I disagree with", you are again transparently showing your grudge-holding twerpishness. I haven't actually said anything you disagree with.

Who, other than a twerp would end a post with "check mate"?

I feel sorry for the folk who do want to discuss this.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: MikeL2
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 11:39 AM

hi Jim

<" 'you don't notice it's there but you'd miss it if it wasn't'">

I couldn't agree more.

Like myself and most musicians I know or have known (regardless of instrument, )have acted as accompanists. We do it to try to help improve the performance of the music. Most of the ones I have known know when the accompaniment improves the performance - if not they don't play.

As you say Jim good musicians do not try to hog the limelight or to drown out the "soloist(s)".

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 11:57 AM

Yep. What is a list of tunes ranging from the 15th to the 19th century in origin supposed to show? At least one of them was probably common to Irish and Scottish tradition before it was first written down, and it was sheer fluke that it happened to be written down in Scotland first.

Some on that list were first intended for the Highland pipes, some for solo fiddle, some for fiddle and bass, some for the keyboard - is their origin supposed to dictate a "correct" approach to arrangement? (If so, it would obviously help to know which is which, but Dick isn't asking that).

the gaberdine swine

Now that is a Freudian slip with some really interesting implications.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 12:45 PM

"I feel sorry for the folk who do want to discuss this"
then leave the discussion, stop trolling and calling me names and let other people discuss it,the same remark applies to Steve Shaw, who has also been trolling.
I have had a lot of experience of accompanying music and in my opinion a good accompanist can lift a tune and a song., a bad accompanist can wreck it.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 12:55 PM

Dick, old chap, making music is about making music, a collaborative thing if more than one person is playing. If the role of an accompanist is to make the singer keep pitch or melody player to keep time, then good music is not being made. Well, it may be good music in certain contexts, a teacher teaching a kid grade 3 fiddle perhaps, or Gareth Malone succeeding in getting a big fat postman to hold more than a note or two. But, generally, if you are having to strive to keep someone else in time or pitch, it's crap innit. We've all been there. It is not your role. It's your role to listen and make hundreds of tiny decisions in your own playing every minute, derived from your listening, and that goes for singers/melody players/accompanists in equal measure. Add a task on top of that, like keeping someone else in pitch or time, and the whole thing stops being good music and becomes one big tribulation. And it shows to the listeners and it feels horrible for the players. Except for crap players, who probably think it's great.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,sphincter
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 12:55 PM

From Dick Miles's biog on The Session - 'Ignore all remarks made by Michael Gill.'

I bet Dick's going to spend the whole night worrying about the difference between Gadarene and gaberdine. I'll get my coat, but what'll he be wearing?

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Musket
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 12:59 PM

100 and a middle 8 from the strings