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can accompanists lift the music
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 03 Oct 12 - 01:11 PM sphincter, I wrote Gaberdine as a joke, took a long time for anyone to pick up on it though. here is an example of how i accompany a song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1PaQaNH9NI&feature=rellist&playnext=1&list=PL998B0487CF451E7A |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:04 PM this is lovely playing and unobtrusive accompaniment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90VLVbCVDuQ |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:08 PM Never assume that, just because we didn't all pounce on it with unalloyed delight, we didn't "pick up on it." I'm relieved that you meant it as a joke. For one awful minute I was questioning your proficiency in written English. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Jack Campin Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:22 PM Joke or Freudian slip - not sure there's much difference. I took it that the reference was to The Merchant of Venice, act 1 scene 3. With all that implies. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:40 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzeG3Jpcot4 I like the two accompaniments here. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:44 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90VLVbCVDuQ |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:47 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tGNls0K4HE |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:48 PM "I bet Dick's going to spend the whole night worrying about the difference between Gadarene and gaberdine." A tutorial: You can put lipstick on a Gadarine but it's still a Gadarine. You can put lipstick on gabardine but don't let your lover's wife see it. You can put lipstick on a gaberdine but it won't prove that Shylock was gay. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:51 PM Matt Cranitch and Jackie Daly will be appearing at The Fastnet festival, June15 2013. Lovely guitar accompaniment from PaulDeGrae |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:00 PM I love predictions. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Stanron Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:25 PM I'm getting bored by the attacks on our original poster, but I do like the Early Music version of Pachelbels' Canon posted by Jack Campin. Not the best argument against accompaniment though, is it? |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,999 Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:31 PM A cappella (Italian for "in the manner of the church" or "in the manner of the chapel",[1] also see gospel music and choir) music is specifically solo or group singing without instrumental sound, or a piece intended to be performed in this way. It contrasts with cantata, which is accompanied singing. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,999 Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:32 PM Pardon me. That last post of mine is a quote from Wikipedia. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:36 PM You appear to be confusing the performance of scored polyphonic music with music (a song or tune) containing accompaniment. Not at all the same thing. It's like saying that the trumpets in Beethoven's Fifth are accompaniment. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,michael gill Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:55 PM That clip of Matt Cranitch,Jackie Daly & Paul De Grae Live At Temple Bar Tradfest 2011 is a perfect example of accompaniment lifting the performance (the crowd start to clap when the guitar comes in) but being utterly ineffectual to the tune playing (apart from obscuring it) |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST Date: 03 Oct 12 - 04:02 PM Steve, confusion is a big part of my life. The point I was trying to make and failed to do will grab everyone the wrong way. If songs are done unaccompanied, and that can only mean solo singing, then even other voices are an intrusion. Songs written with instruments will then require that instrument because it is an integral part of the song. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,999 Date: 03 Oct 12 - 04:03 PM Shazpot! That was me. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Don Firth Date: 03 Oct 12 - 04:45 PM Take a round, any round. "Frere Jackque," for example. The melody starts. In the third measure, the same melody starts again. Then in the fifth measure, the same melody starts again. Etc. Once the whole thing gets going, you can take a vertical slice out of it and find three or four notes all sounding at the same time. Spell them out, and you will discover that it is a chord. Do this at any point in the performance of the round (except for the first two measures and the last two measures) and you have a genuine, bona fide, and ordained chord. Okay, sports fans, tell me: where is the melody and where is the accompaniment? A canon, such as Pachelbel's Canon, has a very similar structure. The same melody intertwining with itself. A round is a canon, usually wearing a Scout uniform and sitting around a campfire with a bunch of other Scouts. A canon is a round wearing a tuxedo and being played in a concert hall. A fugue is similar, but consists of a number of similar but different melodies, each starting at a different point and intertwining in a manner similar to a round or canon. One could say it is a round on steroids. Bach wrote a lot of these. Second year Music Theory. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Oct 12 - 04:59 PM One of the best pieces of accompaniment I have ever heard was on MacColl's Tunnel Tigers for the film, The Irishmen (I have a copy of it here, though I'm not sure the film was ever released in the UK) The accompaniment, a guitar and concertina, starts the sequence with a repetition of chords - a steady, throbbing, repetitive sound, like a drill, then the voice comes in over the instruments: "Hares run free on the Wicklow Mountains"... sung by Paul Lenihan. The accompaniment remains unchanged throughout the sequence, providing a matrix for the singer to sing over. Magic Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 03 Oct 12 - 05:11 PM From: GUEST,michael gill - PM Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:55 PM That clip of Matt Cranitch,Jackie Daly & Paul De Grae Live At Temple Bar Tradfest 2011 is a perfect example of accompaniment lifting the performance (the crowd start to clap when the guitar comes in) but being utterly ineffectual to the tune playing (apart from obscuring it)" that is your opinion, and in my opinion your opinion is a load of cods wallop. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Stringsinger Date: 03 Oct 12 - 05:30 PM 1. The accompanist must know the tune. 2. Play what is appropriate. 3. Don't attract attention away from the soloist. 4. Follow principles of good accompaniment: A. Play the proper fills. B. Always support the soloist. C. Play the appropriate chords (this selection made by musicianship) D. Follow the singer's lyric lines. (Pay attention.) E. Work out instrumental solos in advance. F. Try to look at the soloist while playing. (in some cases it doesn't work) |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,999 Date: 03 Oct 12 - 05:30 PM I am glad that's finally settled. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 03 Oct 12 - 05:40 PM here is an example very similiar to what i think jim was describing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2tUvD0IjQY |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Stanron Date: 03 Oct 12 - 05:49 PM Anyone for bagpipes? I'm not too fond of GBH pipes (unless marching into battle) but border pipes and Northumberland small pipes are more house trained. With drones playing they accompany themselves. Not in the normal chordal way, but each melody note creates a different harmonic relationship with the drones. So far this is all east of the Irish sea. What about the Irish pipes. In a session does an Irish piper use drones? Is that then accompaniment or the exception to the rule? |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,michael gill Date: 03 Oct 12 - 06:21 PM Jim Carroll writes: "One of the best pieces of accompaniment I have ever heard ..." etc. And the old chap Good Soldier Squelch replies with: "here is an example very similiar to what i think jim was describing" ... and post a video of himself. What a twerp. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Oct 12 - 06:32 PM Saying that a fugue is a round on steroids is far too simplistic. Listen to Beethoven's Grosse Fuge, or the fugue that ends the Hammerklavier sonata, or the fugue that forms var. 32 in the Diabelli Variations. Then tell me that they're rounds on steroids. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Oct 12 - 06:41 PM And oi, Gill, that's the second time you've cost me money recommending an album. I bought the MacDara one today. It was so good that I sat in the supermarket car park for a quarter of an hour listening to a bit more and a bit more instead of going in for the widgies and milk. Here it is again for anyone stupid enough to have missed it (and you can listen to three whole tracks before you're forced to buy it) http://macdara.bandcamp.com/album/ego-trip |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,999 Date: 03 Oct 12 - 07:24 PM I felt that way the first time I heard The Rankin Family's CD, 'Fare Thee Well Love' back in the early 1990s. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,michael gill Date: 03 Oct 12 - 07:45 PM it's lovely isn't steve. It's so obvious that all this silly semantics can be cured by simply listening to such lovely playing. Specifically, the idea this this music could ever be enhanced by even the very best of the best strumming. It's a shame that a dunce like the old fella will never get it. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Oct 12 - 08:50 PM It's pure joy. And (from first hearing - I could be wrong) most of his double stops are octaves, not suggesting harmony. No, all that lovely harmony I could hear was purely inside my head. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Don Firth Date: 03 Oct 12 - 09:28 PM Steve, saying that a fugue is a round on steroids IS simplistic, but that IS the basic idea. It's more a matter of intertwining melodies that it is of melody plus accompaniment. One can cavil that I have "oversimplified," but for the benefit of those in the process of learning, this is preferable to confusing them by making the whole thing overly complex. As is being done by several people here on this thread (which, frankly, I see as a matter of personal ego gratification rather than attempting to clarify things for the benefit of relative beginners). I studied music formally at the University of Washington School of Music for three years, another two years at the Cornish College of the Arts music conservatory, plus private theory and composition with Mildred Hunt Harris, and I have taught music for decades (many former students going on to perform professionally). So I think I have the necessary credentials. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 03 Oct 12 - 11:38 PM Whats happened to the moderators? Is it now allowed to call someone a twat, a twerp a dunce. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 04 Oct 12 - 12:06 AM mudcat. Be aware that our forum is Free. Anonymity and Guest Posting are permitted. You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak. Be aware of what personal information you decide to share within the forum. It is public. Unlike Facebook, there is NO PRIVACY at all. We care about your safety but we are not in the business of protecting you. Your kind and civil behavior is your best protection. Membership, however, is currently being purified. One of the great things about mudcat over the years has been our ability to meet other mudcatters around the world in person and visit their homes and such. For this to be safe for everyone, we gotta kinda put you through the ringer a bit. So.. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Oct 12 - 05:20 AM Just drop it will you, Dick. I mean, you're a fine one to talk, aren't you? You've called me all sorts down the years and I just shrug. Listen to that MacDara online instead and tell us what you think. Point taken, Don. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 04 Oct 12 - 05:53 AM Steve, go somewhere else if all you wish to do is troll, and let me and others discuss it with people on this forum who do not have an agenda. I wished to discuss it over here away from you and gill, so that a sensible discussion could be had. I NOTICE YOU DID NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSION OVER ON THE SESSION most people would interpret that and your involvement here as an attempt to sabotage this thread. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,michael gill Date: 04 Oct 12 - 07:24 AM Old chap, it is your inability to comprehend what people say that gets in the way of you having a sensible discussion. Just get off your high horse and roll it back a bit: "Of course accompaniment can lift music, in many ways". Yep, that's what I said. Now ... do you really want to discuss this or, as you say, "Ignore all remarks made by Michael Gill"? |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Jack Campin Date: 04 Oct 12 - 07:45 AM I'm getting bored by the attacks on our original poster, but I do like the Early Music version of Pachelbels' Canon posted by Jack Campin. Not the best argument against accompaniment though, is it? I haven't been arguing against accompaniment in general. The theme in the Pachelbel Canon is not an Irish traditional tune and was only ever intended by its composer to be used in a contrapuntal composition. There are also lots of folk traditions where polyphony is ubiquitous and solo melody unknown. ITM isn't one of them. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Oct 12 - 09:03 AM I NOTICE YOU DID NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSION OVER ON THE SESSION most people would interpret that and your involvement here as an attempt to sabotage this thread. Of all the idiotic things you've ever said, that one surely takes the biscuit.
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 04 Oct 12 - 12:40 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzMjQ1VQZEo a wonderful example of accompaniment lifting the music |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 04 Oct 12 - 12:45 PM and here irish ceili music,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xCvm963vRk the accompanists imo defintely lift the music. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: johncharles Date: 04 Oct 12 - 01:28 PM Nic Jones was a top player and singer I would say his playing and singing complemented each other. The ceili band are pretty average. john |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,michael gill Date: 04 Oct 12 - 01:35 PM Yes, when I was a kid, that penguin eggs record was one of my all time faves. It just goes to show what can be done with commitment. Excellent stuff. But I wouldn't really class the guitar as accompaniment. It's more like the song and the guitar work are equal parters and this is when that kind of thing really works well. The voice does not obscure the guitar and the guitar does not obscure the song. But I was disappointed with the Kilfenora clip. I've heard them better, tighter. That just sounded like a big stramash type of a session. Plenty of lift, yes, but the big thing it misses is the detail. All the delicacy of the music is lost. I know it's a bit like comparing lasagna with cheese, but that's what it's like. Don't get me wrong, I love a good lasagna. Such disparate tastes as beef and pasta and tomato and garlic and, of course, cheese, all merged together in what is really quite a complicated dish. But you know what, the worst thing about lasagna is that stodgy feeling in your stomach after you've eaten it. But give me a bit of cheese. Just the cheese. What a beautiful and subtle thing cheese is. And what an enormous variation of cheeses there are. Could you tell which cheese went into the lasagna? Sure, some people like a cracker with their cheese, but you can't appreciate the texture of the cheese when you chew a cracker with it, the cracker texture is just too different, it's so alien. And some people like a grape with their cheese, but this interferes with the sweetness. Anyway, Irish diddley tunes are both erudite and simple, And a really good player of Irish diddley tunes is extremely subtle in their delivery. It is an extremely delicate thing that can be both so easily obscured and side tracked. There are two things that happen when accompaniment is used: The player is constricted in their invention and the tunes are compromised in their ambiguity. So get this CD and report back. With an open mind please. http://macdara.bandcamp.com/album/ego-trip |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Oct 12 - 01:42 PM Nic Jones arranged his songs so that the guitar and voice were intimately intertwined and complementary. It is not the same as talking about a guitar accompanying an Irish tune. In the latter case the instrument is an add-on to a melody that is more than capable of standing alone. Ceili bands are a shining example of how to wreck good Irish tunes, and it bears me how anyone can talk of "accompaniment" in a ceili band setting such as the one presented here. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,sturgeon Date: 04 Oct 12 - 02:06 PM 'Ceili bands are a shining example of how to wreck good Irish tunes, and it bears me how anyone can talk of "accompaniment" in a ceili band setting such as the one presented here.' Céilí bands are far more sophisticated nowadays than Steve Shaw suggests. The Kilfenora's latest CD, 'Chapter Eight' is a glorious example of wonderfully played tunes matched by very subtle accompaniment. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 04 Oct 12 - 02:06 PM Subject: can accompanists lift the music From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM Date: 29 Sep 12 - 02:48 PM certain people try to claim that accompanists cannot lift music, my experience has been different, what do other people think?" my original post it has no mention of ITM. MY POINT IS THAT, nic jones singing that song unaccompanied would not have the same impact. some unaccompanied singers could do it, but that was not nics forte. his forte was[imo]making a silks purse from a sows ear, by adding imaginative guitar accompaniment he improved the song, and yes it is accompaniment., if it was not there, it would be unaccompanied,it makes no difference how much it is complimentary intertwined it is still accompaniment., all accompaniment should be complimentary |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,sturgeon Date: 04 Oct 12 - 02:07 PM I think you mean 'complementary', GSS. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Jack Campin Date: 04 Oct 12 - 02:08 PM I believe Nic Jones got some of the idea for that sort of guitar work from Middle Eastern music. Here's an unalloyed example: Ruhi Su: Kiziroglu Mustafa Bey There is actually only one melodic line going right through it - the voice occasionally takes a break and the saz does something rhythmically more elaborate, then the voice takes over again and the saz drops back to a subsidiary role. (I've heard Jones doing something much closer to that than he does on "Canadee-i-o", but can't remember where). Those instrumental breaks are often fixed in tradition: everybody who does a particular song does the same melodic breaks. It isn't exactly an accompaniment, more a sort of solo melody with episodic unisons. I suppose you could do that to an Irish tune but there isn't any obvious reason to. You get something like it in the call and response of Hebridean work songs, but that form didn't cross over into dance music. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,michael gill Date: 04 Oct 12 - 03:09 PM I'd say that the difference with nic jones' guitar part with that song is that the guitar part stands as a piece on it's own. It's more than just an intro. And this is why it works. Dick, Do you think that the fiddle playing I linked to above could be "lifted" by accompaniment? What a lot of us are saying is that yes, as a general statement, accompanists can lift music. Except for certain circumstances. Can you not agree with this? |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,kenny Date: 04 Oct 12 - 03:17 PM The excellent recording by MacDara O'Raghallaigh referred to above is a perfect example of music which could not be improved - or "lifted" - by any accompanist you care to name - in my opinion. It's just not necessary, and to my mind would detract from the performance. An absolute classic of traditional Irish music played on fiddle. I've heard as good - very few - but never better. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Oct 12 - 03:19 PM A well-played Irish tune is not notes of a tune. It is melody, rhythmic subtlety, ornamentation and variation in a beautifully-integrated synergy. Listen to the MacDara. Fer chrissake, you can listen to three whole tracks without it costing you a bean. Sublime it is. Not just sublime, utterly complete. A ceili band, no matter how competent, has to conform to a common denominator. To put it simply, there is very little scope for the invention that makes diddley music what it is. It has the same relation to diddley music as that classical pop from the RPO in the 70s had to classical music. At least that didn't pretend to be what it wasn't. I don't suppose most honest ceili band members would pretend either. |
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