can accompanists lift the music

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 12:30 PM

bout this guitarist?thiis agood example of guitar and fiddle gelling,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExNN03K0AmM
incidentally gill has now moved his goalposts,he said this previously,
"Specifically, the idea this this music could ever be enhanced by even the very best of the best strumming.

It's a shame that a dunce like the old fella will never get it."
well young fella, take a listen to carth and swarb

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 01:26 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OqPDw1X90M&feature=related
again beautiful sensitive playing from both of them.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 04:54 PM

Well ... when I said "specifically" it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that I meant "specifically"to something specific.
In "this" instance, "this" music:
http://macdara.bandcamp.com/album/ego-trip

You haven't commented on this music. Specifically you haven't replied to the specific question of do you think that "this" music could be lifted by accompaniment.

I have no idea why you have avoided this question.

Anyway, Martin Carthy and Dave Swarbrick have always been a double act, where the guitar is an equal parter to the fiddle. And yes, they are sensitive to each other's playing, that's what being a duo is all about.

But would a solo album of Swarbrick hold attention? I'm sceptical on whether it would hold mine, but is that merely "no accounting for taste"? Maybe, but that's a different discussion.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 06:02 PM

ah, the twerp, dunce, twat,since that is how you refer to me, I will refer to you in the same manner.
I am not interested in listening to your offering until you put it in a playable link, I might think about it then when I get time.
I am certainly not going to take orders from you as to what I should listen to, I happen to be fairly busy this week with gigs and matters to do with the two festivals I am involved with, bye.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 06:03 PM

Come on now, Dick old chap. You can listen to three full tracks of MacDara's album buckshee. Have a gander and tell us whether you think that his music could be lifted even by the very best strummer you could come up with.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 06:55 PM

http://macdara.bandcamp.com/album/ego-trip

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 07:10 PM

Dunno if I'm missing something, but frankly anything would be better than the dull clonk of that blokes boot. And it wouldn't really be rocket science playing an accompaniment that would give it a kick up the arse.

There are things that don't require accompaniment and accompaniment would detract. But that's a piss poor example.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 07:25 PM

I'm glad you began with the your disclaimer "Dunno if I'm missing something", clever that. Dug yourself out of a hole before you jumped in it.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 07:30 PM

Rock on Big Al. How about a suzaphone to beef up the bottom end and a five string banjo putting in some chords?

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 07:50 PM

The way he's using that boot is a bit more sophisticated than Al thinks. It acts as a kind of metronome, but he doesn't follow it exactly; quite often the downbeat anticipates the stamp at the start of a phrase and the tune catches up in a couple of bars.

All three tracks have subtly flexible timing. He can only do that because he's playing solo - anybody else in the mix, however good they were, could only make it more rigid and rhythmically less interesting.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 07:53 PM

... and that's only one of the myriad of things he's doing

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 08:12 PM

well perhaps he should have got a the eq abit sharper on the boot - if its that distinguished a performance. Who knows - a bit of compression out of the mix and perhaps we'd all notice that terrific boot technique.

As it stands -give me the sousaphone, five string banjo, and the bloke in the corner with the out of tune mandolin, and that other guy (the rich guy) who's just had his set uillean pipes delivered and he's getting them out of the box - you've got to let him in join in! Not as though he's spoiling anything, is it...? And Fred on the spoons....! (somebody took a knife to his Guinness bodhran last week, and he's been upset)

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 08:14 PM

One of the myriad things he's doing is making sublime music. Ever since Gill recommended it, and I downloaded it, I haven't stopped playing it. We have to drive to Barnstaple and back tomorrow morning. The missus will be thinking we can listen to Woman's Hour. Ha.

And Dick, old chap, I command you to listen to that link. Denial will get you nowhere.

http://macdara.bandcamp.com/album/ego-trip

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 08:25 PM

Listen to a lot of bubblegum, do you, Al?

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 08:32 PM

How dare you characterise the folk music of this sceptred isle, as practised in the folk clubs as such?

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 08:39 PM

Are you Al, Big Al, Alan or a chameleon? You've had more name changes in a run of ten posts on one thread than I've had on a dozen forums over ten years.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 09:50 PM

I'm the same bloke but my cookie keeps needing re-setting, so I get fed up putting down my real name all the time.

I don't know why its suddenly started happening after years of staying in place. Sorry for any confusion, Steve.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:40 AM

I must own up to being a fiddle philistine. Three minutes and I was losing the will to live. Perhaps there is a clue in the title of the CD.
john
p.s. Each to his own.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:56 AM

Again, someone opening their post with their get out clause.

"Three minutes and I was losing the will to live. But that's because I know absolutely nothing of what I was listening to."

It's a pretty straight forward problem with most musics of the world and fair play to people owning up about it.

And, of course, it's one of the reasons guitars are strummed. To make the unfamiliar more palatable

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 05:56 AM

Hmmmm, I've heard Ewan MacColl do "Joy of Living" both unaccompanied and with Peggy Seeger accompanying him, and for me, without a doubt, the accompaniment lifted the music immeasurably.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,MIchael gill
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:00 AM

I'd agree with that one

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:46 AM

here is some fiddle music I could listen to all day. I also like the accompaniment.
john
hector the hero

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:49 AM

If you listen to that all day your teeth would fall out.

It's like a ball of candy floss dipped in golden syrup, rolled in icing sugar, coated in marzipan, sprinkled with hundreds and thousands and left on a warm radiator to melt all the texture out of it.

But then that's the Transatlantic Sessions progamme for you. Lowest common denominator

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:52 AM

Pretty tune, johncharles. I can't hear the guitar player's stuff on the take, but it works for me.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:58 AM

I think a GOOD guitarist would have been better, I agree it is good fiddle playing.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:52 AM

lets face it, we don't understand Michael, we lack your superior taste - your je ne sais quoi; your aesthetic appreciation of Irish boot music and the nuances of a Nike trainer, as opposed to a Clarks sandal.

If I were you I'd bypass us Philistines and go straight to Brussels to apply for a Euro grant.

Works in England all the time.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Half-wit Sympathist
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:54 AM

I think it's a shame when GSS posts on these boards and brings out Trolls, Half-Wits and bullies, who pounce on him with such venom. Oh! How comfortable and right you clever people are. I know who I'd rather have a pint with, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 11:26 AM

Maybe somebody got at cross purposes in the last few posts?

Jerry Douglas's dobro playing on that Transatlantic Sessions video of "Hector the Hero" was tasteful, minimal and effective. And, unfortunately, mostly drowned out by Phil Cunningham rambling all over the piano keyboard like a drugged-up Liberace.

It's unlikely that Scott Skinner would ever have wanted to play the tune in public without an accompanist - he just didn't work that way at the time wrote it. It's not like accompaniment is an alien accretion for that one. But Skinner was known to have chewed out one of his pianists in public for trying to hog the spotlight.

I doubt whether Douglas would have wanted to mess up MacDara's performance by joining in with it. Not sure I'd have trusted Cunningham to keep his hands in his pockets.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 11:44 AM

Excellent fiddling on that MacDara link and the dog barking in the background on Broderick's really lifted the music.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 12:08 PM

The only redeeming feature of this thread is that there are links to some interesting things that we might not have otherwise thought to listen to. In keeping with that, here's
Mischa Maisky Playing Bach Cello Suite No.1 in G, which was mentioned above.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 12:46 PM

J S Skinner playing hector the hero with piano accompaniment

js skinner hector the hero
click cd214a at bottom to play
john

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 03:01 PM

Stim, the best posting in this thread by far.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 03:28 PM

I thought you might like it, Stanron. For a number of reasons;-)

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:21 PM

It's unlikely that Scott Skinner would ever have wanted to play the tune in public without an accompanist - he just didn't work that way at the time wrote it.

Exactly. Composed music with accompaniment in mind is one thing. Old tunes that have to suffer the modern vogue for bolt-on accompaniment can very often stand up to it very well. I'm never going to chuck out my old Bothy Band and Planxty stuff. But they evolved not needing it and they don't need it now, as MacDara triumphantly shows.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:36 PM

But they evolved not needing it and they don't need it now, as MacDara triumphantly shows.
NO HE DID NOT.
you cannot possibly say that until he played the sane piece with a guitarist, then you could make a comparison, and a value judgement, your judgement is valueless.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 07:49 PM

"Of course they can lift it, but they they can't half drag it down too sometimes!"
Probably the best and most succinct answer so far from Treewindnear the top of the thread.

Guys, (esp GSS and SS) even the moderator can't get you to "Calm down dears". I'd like to bang your over-inflated heads together. Get a life and stop slagging each other off! Life's too short! I hadn't been on Mudcat for weeks and come back to THIS?????? Go out and enjoy playing some music! it might just be therapeutic - looks like you both need some strong therapy or anger management!

..........This moderator agrees with Tattie Bogle. Knock off the BS. This discussion is trying to be about music. You're chumming the thread with remarks calculated to get a response to keep the squabble going. Grow up. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:28 PM

Tattie shrink (small potato) says "Let not the sun go down on thy wrath".
Good night, and please don't lose sleep over this!

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:41 PM

Michael stop being such a bumhole!

GSS is a good egg. He plays folk music.

Isn't it possible that his extensive knowledge of folk music has led him to have some different ideas to those you have? This bloody minded factionalism is so typical of the world of folk music.

Have a listen to one of GSS's albums. His ideas may be technically wrong, but they are ideas that enabled him to build up a formidable degree of performing skill and musical achievment.

Show a bit of respect. You talk about him as though he's a complete twat. And I resent that on his behalf.

And that goes for the bully boys you hang around with.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 04:29 AM

Well said Big Al.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 04:53 AM

Thanks to Tattie Bogle for sorting things out for us.

A fountain of knowledge, voice of reason, and inveterate organiser.
:-)

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 05:03 AM

The real irony is. I can't off hand think of anybody who has played more unaccompanied instrumentals in more folk clubs than ....he virtuous gunner, himself.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:02 AM

"This bloody minded factionalism is so typical of the world of folk music."

Indeed it is. I hate folk music, I hate the world of folk music, always have. It's nothing more than factionalised collections of fashion cliques. I wish you'd all remove the word "music" from what you do because none of you either have the first inkling of what music is or even care about it. Let alone have any ability. All your traditions are invented affectations - nasal singing, ubiquitous guitars, endless tuning when you're supposed to be performing, endless anecdotes, clubs.

Not being able to agree on such a simple statement as "Yes, accompaniment can lift music, except in certain circumstances" just beggars belief.

You're like christians. Despite blips of brief vogues, forever preferring to be marginalised from the main stream. Forever destined to further factionalism. Forever closing your factionlised ranks. Irrelevant.

I'm bloody annoyed that Dick Miles for dragged me into this. Trying to talk to you lot about music is like trying to talk about Darwin to feckin creationists. There's always an answer, and if there isn't one you'll make one up and present it as gospel, forever changing the goalposts.

"NO HE DID NOT. You cannot possibly say that until he played the same piece with a guitarist, then you could make a comparison, and a value judgement, your judgement is valueless." That's the same argument as "just because no human remains have been found in strata laid down before the strata with dinosaur remains doesn't rule out that we might find some in the future." It's so riling. There is no answer. And because there is no answer the assumption is that of winning.




And if Mr Moderator removes this post then he is agreeing with everything I've said. He's just closing ranks.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:11 AM

Calm down Michael. Your post will not be removed, cos we don't understand the point you're making.

Leave out the dinosaurs. tell us what you have to say - the substance of it.

It may not coform to the experience of everybody. But we promise not to be angry with you, or sneer at you for your beliefs,

Try to extend the same courtesy to to us,

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:33 AM

"I wish you'd all remove the word "music" from what you do because none of you either have the first inkling of what music is or even care about it."

Mr Gill, please post something you have written and/or sung and let us hear just how good you are. I'd like to hear what you perceive music to be and the level of excellence one must achieve to be accepted by you, because based on that statement you must know a helluva lot more than me and anyone else on this forum.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:43 AM

Sorry Guest, I don't do put up or shut up, it's counter productive.

Sorry Big Al, I'm not being personal, but you have the tone of a conciliatory evangelist, which coincidentally (not ironically) is the substance of the point I was making.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:44 AM

Firstly,I have not dragged anyone into anything.
"Indeed it is. I hate folk music, I hate the world of folk music, always have."Michael Gill quote
Michael, I understand you play irish trad music, this music is generally categorised as a part of folk music, it is not normally categorised as jazz or reggae or classical or ska or rap, are you saying that you hate the music you play or that ITM is not FOLK MUSIC.
you are entitled to your opinion much as the flat earth society are entitled to theirs, but very few people believe the world is flat, and very few people believe that ITM is not folk music.
furthermore you say you like Nic Jones, Nic Jones is classified as folk music, you appear to contradict yourself.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:50 AM

OK, Mr Gill. However, I do "do put up or shut up." Here's one from me. Tear it apart at your leisure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNQnLUiM4YE

And have a good day.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:05 AM

Well, I loved Bruce's YouTube clip - wonderful stuff.

I also loved Macdara's fiddling - wonderful stuff. Even downloaded the album.

I don't give a stuff for the argument in this thread - it's pointless - but thanks, folks, for the music links. They've given me great pleasure, and every one for different - and valid - reasons.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:06 AM

Steve Shaw, it is not a prediction but a fact        
        

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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:26 AM

It is an insult to the traditional musics of the world for the fashion clique of "folkies" to appropriate them. And that the folkies don't realise this makes it all the more galling. It results in stuff like suggesting that a perfectly formed and performed indigenous piece of art would be better if it had some strumming in it. It's patronising at best.