BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise

Subject: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Arkie
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 12:27 PM

You have probably already assumed this comes from Arkansas. And it gets worse. The author who made this statement represents the legislative district in Jonesboro which is in the northeast region of the state. He also believes that integration resulted in a lowering of white student intelligence. He seems old enough to have been schooled before integration but I do not know his excuse for his level of intelligence. He also predicts a race war sometime in the future for America.

I wish I could say he is the only one of his breed loose in out state, but that would not be true. He did get elected Representative of his district. However, I can say that there are many who would disagree with him.

Jon Hubbard

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 12:31 PM

(:-( D)=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 12:40 PM

Sad thing is that there are one shit load (and I mean "shit load") of white people who believe this stuff...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 12:42 PM

We have laws against that in Canada. Free speech doesn't include that kinda crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: saulgoldie
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 12:43 PM

Well, the "comfortable" in the US could not be that way without some form of slavery. We *still* enslave people domestically--all of those on the bottom tier of the economy, the "47%" if you will who put much more into the economy than they are paid back so that the rest of us can pay less for goods and services than they "should" cost.

We enslave people in other countries. Most recently and obviously, China. But, many other countries, too. They are paid a pittance of what their time is worth so that we can have plentiful cheap goods.

And we enslave the environment. We take waaay more water than nature can continue to provide us. We take waaay more animal life for food than nature can replace. We take more from the soil than it is really capable of giving through the use of petro-chemicals and genetic engineering. We take coffee, chocolate, tobacco, and alcoholic beverages that make huge demands on the soil and the people who must gather and process the raw ingredients that we don't "pay back."

We also take coal, oil, and gas and send their burnt remains into the air and leave yucky stuff behind that is the result of mining and refinement. These are all examples of how we "enslave" other beings and the environment. We could not live as we do without slavery.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 12:45 PM

We need more laws here. We don't have enough laws. And that leads to lawlessness.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 12:56 PM

We make more guitars than there are people to play them, too.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 12:59 PM

Jonesboro is a university town.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Arkie
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 01:08 PM

Yes, Arkansas State University and I believe the second largest university in the state. My son went there for three years and finally transferred. He wished afterward he had done so sooner. I do know several faculty members whom I respect.

In response to Henry's concern about laws - meanness, greed, and the predatory nature of some of our fine citizens develop in complete disregard of laws and in general law provide a minor hindrance. The laws tend to keep the people on the edge in line.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 01:12 PM

You make some very good points there, saulgoldie. Slavery is much more widespread than many people realize...it's just not official anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 01:20 PM

99% are enslaved by the 1%.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 01:25 PM

Although the skin be black or white
Or somewhere in between
Underneath the blood is red
And so its always been
Colour's just within our eye
The way that light is seen
It has no bearing on the soul
Or the worth of any being

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 01:31 PM

Just more neo-confederate racist dogshit - that way too many ignorant fuckwits belive these days- and their numbers are growing exponentially. Arkansas state motto: "Thank God For Mississppi".

God bless Amerika.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 02:29 PM

Influenced by the 1849 essay "Occasional Discourse on the Negro by Thomas Carlyle?


Thomas Carlyle's essay

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 02:56 PM

Slavery of the poor by the rich exists.

Yeah, I thought we all knew that.

Slavery of the enviromnet exists. I disagree with the word.... to me it's exploitation and whether it is done well or poorly is another discussion not germain to the OP.

What I thought the OP was about was questioning if this guy is a hateful fuck making arguements in such a manner as to incite hatred against an identifiable minority. Maybe I missed something. So maybe I should just leave. Probably best on accounta I get pretty worked up about this stuff and my blood pressure is way up lately. I said my piece already, more or less.

Right. Maybe later.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 03:15 PM

"Slavery is a blessing in disguise"

Sounds like a catchy statement for the Republican campaign. It may have legs--hell, it's right up their alley.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 03:41 PM

Those who claim that the United States was founded on "Christian principles" are – up to a point – quite correct, however few of them have even the most vague of notions of what the "Christian principles" that were held by the first colonists actually were.

A good starting point for anyone who might actually be interested in a reasonably factual history of the early colonials is at http://www.timepage.org/spl/13colony.html

At this site, there are numerous local links, but I would suggest that a good beginning point would be to look at the state constitutions. There should be a group of links at the first page/place for each of the original 13 states that will take you to the state constitution for that state.

As a source for those who really want a quick(?) view of the history, the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is particularly instructive since that constitution has been amended only by adding what's new without deletion of the original text. It makes it a little difficult to tell exactly what the current meanings in Massachusetts are, but if read from top to bottom it records all of the changes in more or less chronological order.

It must be kept in mind that the "liberal?" protections for freedom of religion and free speech in the early Massachusetts laws were rather meaningless for them, since IN FACT AND IN PRACTICE there was only ONE PROTESTANT religion permitted to exist in the state at the time of the earliest versions.

Although some of the other state constitutions show changes by added amendments, many (or most?) of the others have been "recompiled" in accessible versions to remove what no longer applies, so the history is less evident, although careful reading can often find good clues about past versions.

It should be self-evident that trying to prove a point by showing actual history to fools¹ can be self-defeating, since many of them will think that the things that were removed to conform to the eventual US Constitution were really good ideas.

¹ Any of a handful of Tea Party Governors or legislators will do, but a good start might be with Governor Brownback from Kansas.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 03:46 PM

If that is true, then I should think that the person saying it would WANT to be a slave.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 03:53 PM

He is -

A slave to religious superstition

A slave to bigotry

A slave to HATE (often redundant with items 1 and/or 2)

(among others)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 04:10 PM

Well, they never had to worry about where their next meal was coming from or where they were sleeping that night.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,Anti-
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 04:51 PM

Hubbard more or less states that African-Americans are ungrateful. They were "rescued" from worse circumstances in Africa than any they faced in America (a statement he makes no attempt to prove because it is unprovable and is only his rather uninformed opinion). In the face of Jim Crow segregation and Southern Lynch Laws and in the face of a deliberately indifferent, if not hostile, justice system that still keeps our prisons stocked with innocent black men, Hubbard's patronizing statement would be laughable were it not so tragic. He is telling African-Americans: "Be grateful we brought you here, otherwise you'd be starving to death or dying of AIDS in some hell-hole like Rwanda where you're all butchering each other like animals." What he seems to forget is that none of these people he is addressing would have been born at all and so there would be no racial strife in America had Africans not been forced to toil as slaves because there never would have been a persecution. By lumping all African-Americans with Africans, an African-American is supposed to regard the conditions of a country he was not born in nor has ever visited as personally as those of the country of which he is a citizen. Hubbard and those who think like him cannot understand that African-Americans were only born because of the slave issue and that the country of their origin is the United States and not Africa anymore than the affairs of Europe should personally concern a white American born in America.

Hubbard then completely misses the point that the African-American is not obliged to place the sufferings of Africans above his own nor to regard those foreign sufferings as his own. The African-American, in Hubbard's universe, should bear his legacy of degradation and neglect with thankfulness that he wasn't born in Africa where it would surely have been worse (and we shall assume that this statement has been proven). Sure, I'm glad I wasn't born a Jew in Nazi-occupied Europe and I'm glad I wasn't locked up in a Serbian prison camp and I'm glad I was born a female living under the Taliban—that doesn't mean I should place the sufferings of these people above my own in a nation where I am facing persecution even though I am a citizen. I cannot react to a persecution I am not being subjected to as though it were my own to bear. I can only react to what persecution I am subjected to. If I am being persecuted, I cannot help but react negatively to it. No human being could respond to institutionalized brutality and oppression with an air of thankfulness that it is not worse as in some far off foreign nation or other.

The very act of owning another person as property is mistreatment in and of itself. All blacks that were held as slaves in America were mistreated simply because they were held as slaves. Whether their treatment was kindly or abominable is beside the point. They were held in bondage and bondage of itself is mistreatment. Moreover, the supposed civilized nature of the white man then falls into question if he institutes a system of slavery that Hubbard says was the very backbone of tribal African society. Slavery was also the very backbone of the antebellum American South. What, then, ultimately is the difference between a plantation owner in Georgia and a tribal chief in Rwanda? None. Both are abusive despots who owned the people under their dominion.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 05:00 PM

I see we are back on track. Well said, Anti.

Oh yeah... the typo... we all know what you meant. Thought I'd say that before some troll "misquoted" you.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 05:02 PM

The ancient feudal system did not vanish with the Renaissance. It is alive and well and living in America.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 01:00 AM

Always picking on Georgia. It was worse in South Carolina. Mississippi.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 05:51 AM

'Slavery' is one of those words that have been grossly over-defined figuratively ~~ 'slave to fashion, slave to nicotine, slave to sciatica, slave to bronchitis, slave to pornography, slave to alcohol, the workers slaves of the capitalists' cont p 94. These have been so overused as to be the sort of 'dead metaphor' so familiar that it is hard for some to realise that it is a metaphor.

The OP concerned the LITERAL meaning, as specified in the article it linked to --

i.e. the possession of one human being by another as a piece of actual personal property {'a chattel personal' as old antebellum laws in the Slave States would put it}, generally for purposes of labour or sexual submission

-- but so many posters have hijacked the thread with irrelevant unrecognised metaphors and similes as suggested above that the thread has been in much danger of disappearing up its own.

GUEST·Anti did well to put it back on track.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 10:38 AM

Yeah, and John Hubbard is an asshole in disguise as a sentient being. He's garbage peddling more garbage for political advantage.

A race-baiting candidate in Arkansas? Who would have ever believed it.

The "New South", fer shure.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 02:19 PM

I could use a couple of slaves.

Applicants with satisfactory resumé are welcome to apply.

Children from India, Pakistan, etc., countries with large child labor elements, not acceptable since they are already well-employed in rug, shoe and plastics industries.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 02:33 PM

The ancient feudal system did not vanish with the Renaissance. It is alive and well and living in America.

It's alive & thriving in Britain too, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 03:02 PM

""the supposed civilized nature of the white man"

I wonder who supposes that, considering the many military adventures, recent and in the past. Is neocolonialism not a form of slavery, on a broader perspective?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,mando-player-91
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 06:08 PM

I'm sorry but I thought this was 2012 and people should be passed this kind of thinking but I must have woken up this morning to 1950

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 07:12 PM

1950??? 1850??? 1750???

Doesn't much matter to the folks who think like this... And there3 are plenty of them... If you were to administer truth serum to the entire Tea Party you'd find that 100%, not 99.99%, deep down inside think like this...

People go, "Oh, there goes Bobert again"...

Hey, I've lived around these people all my life... I've heard what they say and think...

"But, Bobert, some of my best friends are black..."

Bullshit!!! That is the BIGGEST LIE ever told...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,mando-player-91
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 07:16 PM

I know the Tea-Party is the most vile thing happening in America today.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:50 AM

Well, it's right up there with the beer ads, that's for sure. (joke)

My feeling is that most African tribesmen far preferred their traditional tribal existence on their own land to being forcibly siezed by foreigners, packed in the hold of a ship like sardines, chained, beaten and terrorized, many dying on the way, and then sold at auction into slavery in America. They had pride in their own culture, and they most probably supported it. No one takes pride in being a purchased slave of a foreign culture.

But, hey, I'm just preaching to the choir here to say that! We all know it already. It's dead bloody obvious.

And Mr Hubbard, you see, is preaching to his local choir...in his locality...many other people who think as he does, and want to believe what he believes. He's saying what he thinks is "normal". To him, it is. That doesn't mean it's right, needless to say. But a bunch of outraged puffing and blowing here about how awful it is won't change Mr Hubbard one iota...nor affect those who agree with him. It'll just make us feel good for a little while, cos we're not like them. They don't even hear us, for gosh sakes! Do you think they read Mudcat or listen to a progressive news show?

If you want to change Arkansas politics, I guess you'd better just move there, get on the voting list, and vote. Short of that, it's just a lot of talk about stuff we already knew just like we know that 2 + 2 = 4. Let's all agree that slavery is bad. Yeah! It is! Very bad! Is that news to anyone here?

And now what?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 02:00 AM

Most none of them were seized by foreigners. They were sold to foreigners by other tribes of African aboriginals.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 02:28 AM

And what is this about keeping prisons stocked with innocent black men? Ask their victims how innocent they are. We've allowed millions of illegal immigrants to come in and take jobs. Fewer jobs means angrier people. And blacks are angry as hell about it. Anger leads to violence. I personall saw how much your average black person cares about being educated. They'd much rather disrupt the class and get a little attention that way. So many of them are thugs. They don't know anything else.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:24 AM

"I personall saw how much your average black person cares about being educated."

Would you be kind enough to educate me about this?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:38 AM

I was going to high school during integration. They redistricted the neighborhood I lived in. Changed my high school. Brought in all these inner city blacks. They didn't give a damn about school. They liked to disrupt the class with one moronic question after another. When they weren't picking fights. I was attacked by a black girl in class. Can't hit a girl back. You just have to suck it up. The teacher's not about to make any waves. If it happened these days you'd see a black girl with a broken jaw and smashed face.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 07:16 AM

Funny you write that HK. I had a similar experience in school with a group of white kids from another community, when I was a youngster. A number of schools were merged into one bigger one. The kids from one of the communities were a similar "bad bunch" of bullies not much interested in school at all. I strongly expect that there are "those types' in all colour groups. <<:(((=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 07:18 AM

Yeah. About 40% of my family are Native North American. We hear the same stuff said about us.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,mando-player-91
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 07:31 AM

Today prisons in the United States are 21st century slavery

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 07:33 AM

If the shoe fits.........there's good and bad that comes in all colours. Ages. Sexes. Most of the people in prison put themselves there. Some are innocent. Most aren't.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:15 AM

Well, that's the point, isn't it. 'For instance' is not proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:22 AM

I recently read the diary of Ralph Semmes, captain of the Alabama.
At one point he was expressing his displeasure that his personal slave had been persuaded to desert while on shore leave in Havana.
The main gist of his comments was "he'll be really sorry when he realises all he's given up by trading slavery for freedom".

Some things in the South don't seem to have changed in 150 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:05 AM

Here were are 150 years removed from slavery yet we have never, as a nation, come to grips with it's effects... We have failed to repair the damage inflicted to black people and allowed white people a "wink-wink-pass" to blame black people for that failure...

As recent as 1979 white America gave that "wink-wink-pass" as the KKK opened fire on a non-violent protest march in Greensboro, N.C. killing many of the protesters... No arrests were ever made...

As recent as 4 years ago a white vice-presidential candidate said nothing as white people yelled "Hang him" in reference to Obama at her rallies...

As recent as the 1960's black people were still being lynched for perceived behaviors that white people didn't like...

Our nation is like a broken car that we continue to drive knowing it is broken... Rather than fix it correctly we patch it up a little here and a little there...

We now have re-segregated schools through out the South... We have an expensive and winless war against black people with stupid drug laws where penalties for crack cocaine (the choice of black people) are 30 times greater than those for the powder form (the choice of white people)...

I'm sorry, but the major problem in the country ain't black folks but white folks who have shirked their responsibilities for shit that white people have done... I don't give a flying fuck if you, as a white person, didn't enslave black people... You are enjoying the wealth and infrastructure that was built on the backs of black people so quit with all this self-righteous bullshit... Man up and quit with the washrag, crybaby mythology...

Yeah...

Man the fuck up!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:11 AM

"Today prisons in the United States are 21st century slavery"
.,,.
Oh? Where did the owners of the prison buy the slaves? What did they pay for them? What is their legal title to ownership of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:15 AM

The blacks need to Man Up. Quit wallowing in self pity. It's disgusting.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:38 AM

As per usual, Krinkx, you bring the KKK/Jim Crow perspective...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:50 AM

I've spent my life around working class blacks. Not the college educated middle class blacks you rub elbows with. Ex cons, drug addicts, thieves, rapists, murderers.
You feel so sorry for them. And they laugh behind your back. And smash out your car windows.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:57 AM

Sorry, Henry, but you just entered my 'no-fly zone'. I hope things work out for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:05 AM

Good and bad in all folks.
Some are worse than others.
Lots of working class whites are no better.
I'm not a racist.
I'm more a misanthrope.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:08 AM

Yeah, Stinkle- " Ex cons, drug addicts, thieves, rapists, murderers" - just like working-class whites.

Go fuck yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:14 AM

No. I won't. I'll watch you do it. Laugh. Take photos. Share them with my online pals.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:26 AM

I know a lot more than you think about black folks, Krinkx... I was a GED teacher in the Richmond City Jail... I worked at a half-way house in the "hood" and was a social worker in adult services for the City of Richmond... Not only that, I am a bluesman who has made several pilgrimages to Mississippi to hone my craft...

No, bottom line here... White people have broken black people and are now shamefully in denial...

My take??? You break it, you fix it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:35 AM

My take? Pull yourself up by the bootstraps.
Just like white people are different in other regions so are blacks. I served in the Army(did you bobette? or did you get deferments like a good little draft dodger?)
Northern blacks are different than southern. City blacks are different from rural.
Come to the Atlanta Fulton County Jail and work your wonders. Just never drop your soap.
(:-( O)=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:44 AM

No bootstraps and no boots... White folk stole 'um all...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:50 AM

B.S.
I've been the only white man working on a crew with blacks many times.
No brag. Just fact.
And very nearly murdered.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:57 AM

And very nearly murdered.

Shame you survived.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 11:03 AM

Too bad you didn't. Brain dead Greg.
(:-( P)=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 12:55 PM

Fear is part of the problem. Many whites fear blacks. Truth be told, I think most whites fear blacks in certain situations. It depends on what the situation is.

And many blacks fear whites. Truth be told, I think most blacks fear whites in certain situations.

This doesn't mean they fear all whites. Or that whites fear all blacks. Again, it depends on the situation. Some situations are seen as entirely safe, while others are not. Meeting Sydney Poitier or some friend of a different color whom you personally know at a dinner does not feel ANYTHING the same as seeing 4 young black men or 4 white skinheads approaching you on a darkened street corner and giving you mean looks, does it?

Be honest, for goodness sake! Are YOU completely without fear regarding "the other" group in ALL situations? I don't think so.

And then there are some blacks who DO fear all whites and some whites who DO fear all blacks, regardless of the situation.

And that's a huge problem.

And why does it happen? Because of our past divided history. Because of present poverty and inequality. Because of ignorance. Because of fear of the unknown or unfamiliar. Because of an inflammatory media and deep political divisions.

Consider all of this before utterly condemning another single human being on the basis of his color....or on the basis of the clear evidence of his fear. There is some justification for both caution and fear when in the presence of other people who are likewise fearful of YOU. Fear, after all, provokes one of two reactions: fight or flight. It's the fight reaction you really need to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 12:58 PM

And just as Lynyrd Skynyrd sang, a southern man doesn't need you around,anyhow.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:13 PM

No, but he needs the Klan, don't he, Stinkle? And you picked the wrong song. Try "Strange Fruit".

And THEN fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:15 PM

There is a reason why you were nearly murdered... Black folks can smell a racist a mile away...

The halfway house that I worked at was at 2nd and Calhoun in Richmond... Every other weekend I was SOD (Staff on Duty) which meant that I was there for the entire weekend... Most Saturday nights I would be up until 2-3 in the morning and if it was warm enough I'd be sitting on the corner playing geetar, watching pimps, hookers and gang-bangers go about their business... But I'd also talk with anyone who came up to me... This was one of the roughest "hoods" in Richmond back then but guess what, Krinkx???

Give up???

I was never threatened or felt threatened... I'd talk with anyone who came up to me... And most Saturday nights it was a steady stream of folks coming by to say "hey" and do a little "shuckin' 'n jivin'"... I'd even try to talk 'um into drug rahab and a few actually got busted and ended up there...

The point is pretty simple... The Beatles got it right when they sang, "The love that you take is equal to the love that you make"...
You go in hating folks and it's comin' back atcha... That's called karma...

My thinks your karma could use a severe makeup, Krinkx... I mean, you ain't a bad guy... You just got bad karma...

BTW, when I worked in the jail we ain't talkin' Mayberry here... The Richmond City jail is as tough as any and worse than a lot of penitentiaries because you're throwing new folks, many who are scared, into general population tiers with 50 inmates to a tier... My classroom was F-5 which was all the way at the end of jail and on the 2nd floor... It was a 400 foot walk down the corridor with open tiers on both sides so every morning I had to walk thru one shit load of people being treated worse than animals... The guards were all pretty much thugs, too... And then a guard would unlock the door where I had my classroom and not come back to let me out until 3 hours later at noon... I mean, 90% of my students were black... I never felt threatened...

Like I said... It's all about karma....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 02:40 PM

It helps to know the territory, Bobert. A lot of middle class white people or white people from small towns and rural places are completely unfamiliar with the inner city territory that you were working in. Therefore they feel out of place there, and that makes them nervous. That could be interpreted by a local as them being "a racist", couldn't it? And they might get in trouble in a situation where you wouldn't, because they seem uncomfortable or uncertain...they appear to be an easy target to someone inclined to take advantage.

That doesn't mean they are racists. It means they are on unfamiliar ground. Furthermore, I've seen people of every of color who may carry great prejudice against people of another group...meaning great fear of them. It's not an attitude restricted only to whites. Prejudice is an attitude that can infect you no matter what color you are.

Your own lack OF fear is the best protection you can have in a tricky situation...but to be afraid does not automatically classify you as "a racist". It just means you're afraid, period. That's not a sin. It's a problem, allright, but it's not a sin.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 03:04 PM

Folks can tell "Big Country" from "Big Asshole"... Country boys ain't threatening to black folks... Ya' see, a racist all but wears his racism on his sleeve...

Fear is another story entirely that sends out its own signals... Like dogs know if someone is afraid of them where they might not know if you don't like them...

In Krinkx case, he has already made statements that were pretty racist here so it's not much of a leap to conclude that if the black folks he has worked with wanted to kill him it wasn't because he was just a "aw, shucks" country boy... Must have put out some prudy bad vibes...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:55 PM

A (white) man once told me that I "would change my tune if a black guy pointed a gun" at me. I assured him that I wouldn't feel any better about it if it was a white guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 05:04 PM

Yeah, I'm with you on that, Eb... Might of fact, most of the problems I've had in my life - that we're my own making - were the makings of white people...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 05:12 PM

I'm a standoffish person with everybody. White. Black. Mexican. Asian. Men. Women. Children. But that doesn't give anybody the right to commit criminal acts against me.
I stay away from people and don't associate. I don't like involvements.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 05:53 PM

"I stay away from people and don't associate. I don't like involvements."

So you got obtained this seemingly extensive knowledge about "black people" in every region of the country through not associating with them and avoiding involvements. The only thing worse than a racist is an ignorant racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 05:55 PM

Ya' ain't standoffish here, Krinkx... Seems that you are everywhere...

Guess again...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:03 PM

Yes I am. You've never seen my face.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:11 PM

""I stay away from people and don't associate. I don't like involvements.""

So, your constant involvement in threads on this forum, instead of communication, is simply shit stirring?

Just about what we thought!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:18 PM

No. It is friendly discourse. I won't lend you money, though.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 07:07 PM

Ain't about money, Krinkx... It's about you sayin' yer one thing but clearly being another thing...

You say that black people try to hurt you 'cause you keep to yourself???

Then quote Lynyrd Skynyrd's anthem of all Southern white racists???

Which is it??? Man, your just like Romney... Yer whoever pops into yer mind...

But the folks here ain't kids, Krinkx... You have left a body of work that is very troubling... Yes, you are a racist... No, you are not standoffish... You just want to seem like some victim that black people - maybe because you feel superior to black people - just want to hurt because you are some "aw, shucks, mam, country boy who likes to keep to himself...

Fuzzy math, Krinkx...

Hey, don't get me wrong... On some levels yer okay with me but on race??? No way, man... I know way too many of yer types... Way too many...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: gnu
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 07:13 PM

"Yes I am. You've never seen my face."

Oooh, yes we have. Both sides and face on. And I, myself, don't like any of them. Not news, as I have told you before that I loathe you as a person. Your posts in this thread alone have led me to say that was an understatement.

POOF! Yer gone! You don't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:12 PM

""ScienceDaily (Dec. 21, 2011) — Where does prejudice come from? Not from ideology, say the authors of a new paper. Instead, prejudice stems from a deeper psychological need, associated with a particular way of thinking. People who aren't comfortable with ambiguity and want to make quick and firm decisions are also prone to making generalizations about others....once they've made up their mind, they stick to it. "If you provide information that contradicts their decision, they just ignore it.""

Based on this, don't be surprised if you fail to change folks minds through discourse, or your experiences?

Source:

Prejudice-Science study

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:16 PM

BTW, in the last link I provided, there are some interesting studies in the "related stories" section to the left (especially the fourth from the top.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:18 PM

"People who aren't comfortable with ambiguity and want to make quick and firm decisions are also prone to making generalizations about others....once they've made up their mind, they stick to it."

Bingo! I think that's often the main source of the problem, Ed. Fear of ambiguity. They desperately want everything to be absolutely certain, definite, nailed down, settled, and absolute...but we live in an uncertain world full of variety and exceptions to common assumptions...and we can't possibly have the definitive answers to a great many things.

People who can't bear that ambiguity become mentally inflexible, just as explained in your post.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 03:57 AM

(:-( P)=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 09:12 PM

So according to bobette, if you don't care to associate with someone, they have the right to perpetrate criminal acts against you. No wonder he spent so much time in jail. Birds of a feather.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 09:30 PM

No, Krinkx...

If you are a KKK'r racist then don't expect to get invited to too many black family picnics...

Get it yet??? No, you probably don't...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 09:43 PM

By the way, if you ever want to find the joy of knowing black people as people and not these evil people trying to mess you up, let me know... I'll take you behind what you perceive as enemy lines...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 09:46 PM

Any day now, I expect Shane to start his own thread on this kind of theme. It would be entitled "Stoopiditty is a flippin' blessing in disgise, eh?"

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 02:50 AM

Am I entitled to go after anybody that doesn't care to associate with me? I won't.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:04 PM

Just be very, very nice to them. Say nice things about them all the time. It will drive them mad with frustration. Nothing worse than an "enemy" who refuses to act like one! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:09 PM

"Well, they never had to worry about where their next meal was coming from or where they were sleeping that night.
(:-( ))="

You should study remedial history. They were fed poor food and the overseer and the plantation owner were sleeping with the female slaves. They were beaten and starved and anyone who doesn't understand this is truly ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:11 PM

Notice the word "blessing" as it connotes a religious mindset by fundies.

They have used the Bible to defend slavery historically.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:59 PM

Stringsinger, no point in plying abolute fuckwits with facts. They also have no use for history or historical perspective. Or reality, for that matter.

Much more productive to apply yourself to pounding salt down a rat hole.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:17 PM

Me and bobette are going down to the other side of the tracks to get down and dirty with the darkies. We're going to do a little dance and learn voodoo. Or hoodoo.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:27 PM

It's true that slavery was a normal social phenomenon that everyone took for granted back in the Old Testament times....and also in the enlightened Greek and Roman times that followed, by the way, and for a long time after that. Atheists believed in slavery then too! ;-) So it's not unusual that it should appear in the old religious texts from approximately 2,000-4,000 years ago.

But to assume that present day people would favor the idea of slavery because they're "religious" is ridiculous. I haven't met a single religious person in my entire life who favored the idea of slavery, and I've met uncountable thousands of them.

It isn't religion that causes people to favor the idea of slavery. It's people who are culturally inclined already to favor some aspect of slavery who would deliberately twist and interpret ancient holy writings to support their present views. The problem is the pre-existing state of prejudice, not the philosophical or cultural ideas presented in the Bible. An existing prejudice always is happy to interpret anything it reads to suit its own preference.

And that's why religious people vary in character from the most progressive individuals you might ever meet to the most regressive and prejudiced you might ever meet. The same is true of atheists and agnostics, BTW. They come in all flavors.

****

Henry's pulling your chain, guys. That's pretty obvious. And he likes it all the more when you bark and growl at him.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:42 PM

I would never pull your chain. But you may pull my finger.
(:-( 0)=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:07 PM

I'm seein' my black people wanted to kill you, Krinkx... You're like the Grand Wizard...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:12 PM

Lions and tigers and bears. Oh,my!!!
(:-( O)=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:17 PM

I voted for a negro for president, bobette. Not bi-racial Prez al-Obama. A full blown negro. The Libertarian candidate. I can't remember his name. But I voted for him.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:23 PM

Yes, sure you did, Krinkx...

Was that on a safari???

B!

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:44 PM

Maybe that was the governor's race here. Bob Barr was the 2008 Libertarian candidate and I voted for him.(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:45 PM

Did he threaten to kill you if you didn't vote for him???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:49 PM

John Monds. Negro Candidate for Georgia Governor 2010.Libertarian. Google him if you dare. I voted for him. I really did.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 08:01 PM

Yes, of course you did, Krinkx...

If you like these black folks then why can't you seem to actually be around black folks without them wanting ti kill or mess you up???

Hmmmmm???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 08:22 PM

Why do you find it hard to believe that Henry may have worked with or been around some black people at some time who might have threatened him or had a generally bad attitude toward whites, Bobert? It's not an indictment of an entire race to have had such an experience. Many people have had such an experience, just as many have had bad experiences with white rednecks too. Prejudice is not limited by (or to) any one racial profile.

I think you just like disagreeing with Henry by now, as a matter of course. It's become a habit. He's become one of your "perceived enemies" on the forum...one of those despised outlanders who is ALWAYS wrong just cos of who he is! ;-) Why not agree or disagree with him on the basis of what he says instead of who he is? I guarantee he has said some stuff you would agree with from time to time...if it wasn't him who was saying it. I could prove it too, just by looking back through his many posts. But why spend the time?

I'll agree with anyone here on this forum if and when they say something I can agree with...and they all do at times. Even Teribus!!! ;-) That's because I assess what they say on its own merits, not on the old "consider the source" principle that so many here operate on.

And you know I think you're a good guy, Bobert. A friend indeed, even though you often impugn the honor of a noble Chimp I know! I think you're a good enough guy that you might get what I'm talking about here. Maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 02:47 AM

bobette is just a Negative Nellie.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: LadyJean
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 01:22 AM

Mr. Hubbard's book is self published. Anyone who writes will tell you, self published writers are LOSERS. Self publishing is writer's suicide. No legitimate publisher will ever look at your work. If Hubbard hadn't made such stupid, outrageous statements, he'd be passing out copies to his friends and family for decades.

Years ago, the KKK spoke on the steps of the city county building here in Pittsburgh. They used every foul, filthy, disgusting word in the English language. Which, of course, meant that their addresses couldn't be broadcast on television, or printed in the papers. I wouldn't have wanted to be the person who played their answering machine either. Free speech gives morons the right to shoot themselves in the foot, in public. I'm all for it.

Last week, coming home on the bus, my poor nerves got an extra jolt from the young idiot behind me who had to chant rap, all the way into town. ( I do not mind if other people listen to rap. I do mind if I listen to rap, especially on the bus, after a long day at work.) The idiot was white. Idiocy is a cross racial phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 01:37 AM

Drift alert ~~ re self-publication.

Take your point Lady J, but not a universally applicable rule. My late wife Valerie self-published her first book, a collection of poems she called Peepshow; but went on to a successful career as writer, compiler, editor, contributor, of fiction, biography, lit crit, reference, totalling some 20+ books, for such reputable publishers as Blackie, Continuum, Vision Press, Fern House, Duckworth, Michael O'Mara, OUP, CUP, Heinemann, Barnes & Noble, Secker & Warburg, St Martins, Ashford ...

This not of course intended as any sort of defence of the work by Hubbard under question. Simply to modify your point, which does not appear to me to be always necessarily so.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 03:00 AM

I don't start the trouble.
They do.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Arkie
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 11:24 AM

Bubba Jon, made the news again today. He is accusing Gov. Beebe of Hitler-like tactics for his objection to Hubbard's comments. Beebe's comments were more in defense of Arkansas and out of concern for the effect that Hubbard, Fuqua, and Mauch might have on the image of Arkansas.

But lest one thinks that these morally deficient personalities are in the Bear State, here is a bit from Virginia:

Clifford Russell, a nice man working in the Mitt Romney campaign office in Bedford, Virginia, has a plan to reduce this awful entitlement culture that we have here in US America. He says: I'll tell you what we really need to do with these illegitimate families on welfare — give all the kids up for adoption and execute the parents." Russell explains that there is no excuse for being poor, because our economy is structured in such a way that everyone should be an investment banker.

Mr. Russell

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Musket
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 11:45 AM

On an adjacent thread, someone has pointed out that The New Testament reckons slaves must obey their masters. So, the idiots don't even have to go back to the disgusting sections of The Old Testament to justify their outrageous output. They can find it in what Christians keep telling me is the "real" message.

Slavery may be a blessing in disguise because we can look at it, hang collective heads in shame and endeavour to try at least to make society a little fairer. Although with that attitude, if I were in The USA, I would be a red under the bed to the rednecks. Interesting colour red, it also got splashed around a bit in slavery circles.

Still does in fact...

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Arkie
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 01:30 PM

The fact that slavery was not condemned in the New Testament has disturbed many sincere Christians. I for one wish, for our benefit, that first century Christianity had specifically condemned that vile institution. However, by all historical accounts, slavery was an accepted and ingrained element of the economy and social structure of that day and former times. People even sold themselves into slavery to pay off debts. And though the Bible does have some rules regarding slavery, such as Jews could not enslave fellow Jews, it primarily deals with slave holding in an indirect way. In Paul's letters regarding the way a Christian is to live, he stresses a fair treatment of slaves and that Christian slave owners practice their faith in managing slaves as well as every other aspect of their lives. And in early Churches slaves and masters worshiped as equals. I would like to see more verification of this but supposedly there were churches where the slave may hold a higher position in the local congregation that the master.

Although the early Christian church did not specifically forbid the ownership of slaves it did present teaching that become a basis for Christians and other honorable and intelligent people to reject the principle of one human being claiming ownership of another.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 01:41 PM

No, Musket, the New Testament enjoins SERVANTS to obey their masters - unless you're engaging in the same semantic distortions that the ante-bellum Southerners and the current crop of neo-confederate dickheads do.

As for injury to "the image of Arkansas", Arkie, you've GOT to be kidding.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 02:14 PM

Thanks. Like I said, somebody mentioned it. I haven't ever read the bible, Q'ran or any other scripture hence questioning rather than stating. Mind you, when the bible stories were written, I doubt the distinction between slave and servant was too clear, and that's before the translations...

If it says that one set of people with a common belief cannot enslave each other bu can enslave others, it does make you wonder. Such manuals for life would be considered unfit for purpose in any sane society less idiots start wanting to live by it. And to think our Secetary of Statw for education here in The UK has recently put a copy on each school, whilst not putting texts of other religions in. even where, as in many schools, Christian parents are in the minority with Islam and rational people forming the majority.

Just an observation. If they didn't have scriptures to interpret to justify their bigotry, what would they use to push their wicked ideas with? Just a thought

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 02:31 PM

Slaves are mentioned in The Star Spangled Banner.
3rd verse I believe.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 03:30 PM

This may be one of the reasons that no one ever sings the third verse anymore. But the mention of "servants and slaves" in the third verse and the word "freemen" in the fourth and last verse are quite ambiguous within the context of the rest of the words. It does not favor slavery, it merely mentions how even slaves are not safe from the ravages of war.

Nothing pro or con there, Henry. Just the unfortunate fact that the institution of slavery existed at the time the song was written.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, interesting historical note:

Leo Kottke has mentioned that one of his ancestors wrote the National Anthem

Francis Kottke.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:01 PM

The version I have mentions hirelings and slaves. Not servants.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:10 PM

I bet it is for some people, it all depends if you are the slave owner or the slave right

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:16 PM

The words were written in 1814. It was not declared the official National Anthem by Congress until 1931. In the interim, it went through a number of transitions. "Folk process," if you will. This accounts for variations in some of the lyrics

The mention of "slavery" in the third verse in no way condones the practice.

Only the first verse is commonly sung.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Arkie
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:46 PM

Greg does that mean Arkansas has such a pristine image that it cannot be harmed by a few nuts cannot do any damage?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:48 PM

I believe it actually meant all citizens are slaves to the corporations, and especially the politions.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:55 PM

All verses should be sung. Remember our heritage. They've sanitized it.
(:-( 0)=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:59 PM

But Krinkle--that would delay the game!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:06 PM

It's not a very good piece of music. For those who wish to hear all four stanzas when the American National Anthem is played, here ya go.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:29 PM

Greg does that mean Arkansas has such a pristine image that it cannot be harmed by a few nuts cannot do any damage?

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 06:03 PM

A lot of the organ chords are way off in that 4-verse clip.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 07:47 PM

Allow me to step in as one who taught poetry for decades.

The words in question are as follows:

"No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave."

Key's not talking about actual slaves. He's talking about the Tories, British soldiers, and Hessian mercenaries of the Revolution. As in Shakespeare, "slave" is used contemptuously, somewhere between "bootlicker" and "robot." A "hireling" is a mercenary who will do anything for money. The British regulars, like the Hessians, opposed American liberty under orders and for pay, while the American Patriots fought for liberty.

These people, the song says, were doomed to run or die without hope of refuge.

There's nothing about American slavery there.

Stripped of exalted diction, the entire stanza says,

"And where are those people who swore so boastfully, in the middle of the chaos and confusion of war and battle, that they'd leave us no home and no country? I'll tell you where: their blood has washed out the disgusting pollution of their footsteps. There was no place for those bootlickers and mercenaries to run to: they fled like cowards or died! And the star-spangled banner shall wave in triumph over the land of the free and the home of the brave!"

Got it?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 07:54 PM

Hey, here's an idea... After white people become a minority in America lets repeal the Emancipation Prockamation and the 14th amendment opening the idea that white people can be owned by minorities in America...

Whatddayall think???

Bobert on the road in Leesburg, Va.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 10:18 PM

I'll be honest, IMO, most National Anthems suck, when it comes to music. It would be hard to get any of 'em on any of Billboards top 100, for radio listining or downloads. IMO, they all should be repealed and new "catchy" ones replacing them.

(Here's one, Slavery in disguise, with glasses)

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 10:24 PM

Got it, Lighter. Thanks for the clarification.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 11:18 PM

Am I wrong in my understanding that both George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, as well as some other signers, were slaveowners? If I am correct does that not make the preamble about all being created equal a hypocracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 11:20 PM

Should read as Declaration Of Independence above.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 12:00 PM

They were speaking according to the prevailing cultural assumptions of their time, Sandy. The fact that we have changed many of those assumptions in the space of over 200 years is not surprising.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 12:34 PM

And the fact that a substantial portion of the U.S. population has NOT changed many of those assumptions in the space of over 200 years is most certainly disturbing and sickening.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 01:19 PM

Inspired by the 1812-14 war.

USA Anthem info

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 02:48 PM

Both Washington and Jefferson manumitted their slaves in their wills.

Though they were certainly thinking primarily about white people when they wrote "All men are created equal," they chose not to restrict the wording in that way - unlike the later Confederate Constitution, which specified that the white man, under God's guidance, was boss, and black chattel slavery was forever.

White women couldn't vote in 1789, but they too came under the "created equal" phrase to the extent that they (unlike slaves) were equal under the law. While there might be some inequalities in the statutes, women were still prtected by due process, just like men. (And if the Founders had meant just "men" rather than "human beings" they'd have said so.)

The crucial point, though, is that the "created equal" clause is worded in the most liberal and inclusive manner, allowing the *possibility* that in the future it would apply to everybody. That future began in 1863 and has been expanding ever since.

A Constitution framed by the smug racists and sexists of recent caricature wouldn't have allowed for any greater inclusiveness than what their presumably racist and sexist beliefs would tolerate. It would have said specifically that slaves, women, gays, Native Americans, immigrants, etc., didn't count.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 02:50 PM

The writer of the USA National Anthem, Key, (which was adopted the Anthem in 1931) "disliked slavery and was later active in the antislavery movement, but still owned slaves and as a lawyer took up cases in court to try to free the slaves. Key also orgginally opposed the War of 1812,where he wrote the poem""

Go figure:)

Francis Scott Key
Biography

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Arkie
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 03:05 PM

Concerning Thomas Jefferson's attitude about slavery:

Thomas Jefferson was a consistent opponent of slavery his whole life. Calling it a "moral depravity" and a "hideous blot," he believed that slavery presented the greatest threat to the survival of the new American nation. Jefferson also thought that slavery was contrary to the laws of nature, which decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty. These views were radical in a world where unfree labor was the norm.

These comments come from the Jefferson Monticello website. Still he did preside over a working plantation and did own slaves. Another quote from the site: Jefferson wrote that slavery was like holding "a wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go." In some instances Jefferson's thinking was quite radical and advanced for his time. In other instances, his thinking reflected that of his age. While he did actively seek ways of ending slavery, his plans included returning slaves and former slaves to Africa or some other location.

Jefferson Site

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 03:15 PM

If you own slaves in a society that promotes slavery, and those slaves have been keeping your family going for decades and a few of them are "like (third-class) members of the family," and your friends and neighbors will shun you as a lunatic if you do free them, it's going to be very hard to free your slaves unless you're a moral superhero.

Washington, Jefferson, and others like them were political and moral heroes, but not superheroes. That's life. Unlike Simon Legree, they presumably treated their slaves with as much decency and consideration as they could.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 07:58 PM

Jefferson had a negress for a mistress. One of his slaves. What a pig. Knocked her up.
Had a bastard baby.
(:-( o)=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 10:14 PM

That was also pretty common. Indeed, it has always been fairly common for the male gentry in most societies to take mistresses among the help...whether or not they were black...whether or not they were slaves...and back then? Very common.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 10:28 PM

Excuse me, but New Jersey enfranchised anyone with property valued over 50 pounds in 1776. Women were specifically INCLUDED in that state's Constitution, but were written out of the law (unconstitutionally, because it should not have been a legislative issue) in 1807.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 10:34 PM

I think only property owners should be permitted to vote.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 11:07 PM

I think only people who collect hockey cards and/or beanie babies should be allowed to vote. ;-) That's got both genders covered in a fair and equal fashion, and it would weed out the subversives.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Arkie
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 10:35 AM

I know Henry likes to make outlandish comments and for whatever reason but the relationship of Jefferson to Sally Hemings has been studied extensively and there is quite a bit of information on the subject. Though some dispute the findings, I think what is known does provide some insight into Jefferson and the relationship which began after Jefferson was widowed and lasted for 38 years. Anyone who wants details or more extensive information can find it. What is known is that all the children of Sally Hemings while remaining slaves were given responsibilities in he higher realm of slave like. The males were trained artisans and several boys learned to play violin as did Thomas. The girls were house servants. None worked in the fields. One of the girls escaped and was not pursued. Another was supposedly informally freed. An overseer reported giving her $50 and putting her on a stagecoach supposedly to join her sister. Records show that Jefferson formally freed only two slaves in his lifetime. Five male descendants of Sally were freed at his death. Sally was freed by Jefferson's daughter in years after his death. What is not known is why Jefferson did not offer freedom to those he seemed to think of in a special way. It could be because he was attempting to protect them but it is hard to get in the mindset of that era. Accounts of those who traced the Hemings line are that many of them did quite well in later life.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 03:57 PM

Miscegenation. A serious criminal act. And the religious issue of adultery. And out of wedlock babies. He was a disgusting man.
(:-( O)=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 04:39 PM

If Jon Hubbard thinks that slavery was a blessing to black people, he needs to experience some himself.

My wife and I subscribe to NetFlix. Last night we watched "Amistad," based on an actually historical incident. A true story, with accurate depictions of life aboard a slave ship transporting a new cargo of slaves from Africa. The incident took place in 1839, resulted in a case argued in the United States Supreme Court by former president, John Quincy Adams (Anthony Hopkins), resulting in a decision that led inevitably to the Civil War.

The treatment of slaves was abominable, and I find that I am thoroughly disgusted with anyone who could treat other humans in the way "the cargo" was treated.

Steven Spielberg went to great lengths to insure the accuracy of the film, and a lot of it was damned hard to watch.

If Jon Hubbard thinks that slavery was a blessing under ANY guise, then he needs to spend a bit of time enduring the shackles and the lash!!

Don Firth

P. S. And as far as Krinkle is concerned, just scrape him off your shoes and then ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 06:14 PM

I think not, Don - I'm just going to throw the shoes away.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 07:18 PM

Slavery is not a blessing in disguise. It is servitude without honour; it is work for food with no chance of betterment; it is an ugly aspect of human history and maybe character--so ugly in fact that we have to joke about it. It ain't funny.

I am offended by the thread title every time I look in BS. I do not give a damn what your political motivations are, this thread is as wrong as wrong gets. IMO

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 07:22 PM

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill

"Democracy consists of choosing your dictators, after they've told you what you think it is you want to hear." - Alan Coren

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 07:33 PM

"The destiny of man is not measured by material computation. When great forces are on the move in the world, we learn we are spirits--not animals."

WSC


Thank you, Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 07:36 PM

The comment offended Arkie (who is, IMO one of the good guys), so he started the thread. It's absurd anyone should say such a thing, but it's not good to try to pretend someone would never say it.

And yeah, looks like we have racists here. However, they can try too hard, and that looks desperate. It comes off as their values and integrity not being as important to them as their hatred of Mudcat. People like that are weak.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 08:24 PM

Arkie, I am sorry. I hadn't looked at who started the thread. I've read too many of your posts to think what I said pertains to you. Again, my apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 09:16 PM

999 - Brilliant comment by WSC! We are indeed spirits. Spirits are not divided by "race". We shouldn't be either.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 01:57 AM

Impregnating a slave. Producing more slaves. And you defend it. You make my blood boil. It's sick.
(:-( P)=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 05:48 AM

""Impregnating a slave. Producing more slaves. And you defend it. You make my blood boil. It's sick.""

There's a very simple remedy.........LEAVE!

You won't be missed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 06:21 AM

Then you'd only have the choir to preach to. How much fun is that? Or don't you enjoy lively debate?
(:-( P)=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 09:14 AM

Having a lively debate on the virtues of lack there-of of slavery might have been relevent 160 years ago but it is no longer anything that civilized people should be debating... Kinda falls in the category of using leeches for medical treatment or the dangers of traveling greater than 28 mph or the possibilty that the earth is flat...

The difference is that with leeches and flat-earth we are talking about a practice that most earthling find repulsive... And have for a long, long time...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 09:19 AM

They have gone back to using leeches, bobette. Maggots too.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: gnu
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 03:31 PM

Leeches and maggots... hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 03:48 PM

Republicans and Democrats. Hmmmmmmmmm........
(:-( ))=