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BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why.
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 12 Oct 12 - 08:14 PM Are terrorists really just good ol' freedom-fightin' boys who've had it up to here with Western arrogance? I think not. http://news.yahoo.com/conversations-malala-yousafzai-girl-stood-taliban-133500248.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Oct 12 - 10:23 PM I'm not defending terrorists. I'm saying that the word "terrorist" is being misused a lot these days as a scare tactic to justify wars of choice launched by the western alliance. Those wars have definite objectives. Their objectives are not to stop terrorism, but to secure USA/UK/Israeli/French interests in the Middle East and to win the longterm (undeclared) war of empires against Russia and China...which is mostly about having allies and client governments in strategic regions and controlling oil sources and markets. And that's why the Middle East is the primary battleground. "Terrorists" are just the latest excuse for waging the great game of empire. It used to be "communists". Remember? It's always something. For Hitler it was "Jews and communists". People seeking to wage war always need something they can scare their own public with first in order to get them onside for their wars of choice. Hitler had his Reichstag fire, the USA had 911. Same basic approach...different target...different set of scapegoats. It's the Shock Doctrine. You shock the hell out of your own people with some totally unexpected disaster, frighten and anger them, focus all their anger on a foreign (or sometimes even a domestic) enemy, and then do what you'd planned to do all along...which normally involves killing a lot of people who happen to be in the way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Jul 15 - 10:24 AM I am refreshing this thread because of a lot of misuse of the word Terrorism - not every crime committed by a moslem against people who aren't moslem is terrorism, the lastest (Chattanooga) shooting notwithstanding. In fact, no attack on any *military* target can be called terrorism, not even the Marine barracks bombing. If you're killing soldiers, you aren't a terrorist, no matter what your motive. It isn't only the motive that makes an act of violence terrorism. Who commits it matters, and whom the target is matters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Greg F. Date: 17 Jul 15 - 10:52 AM Ah, but if we don't call it terrorism the U.S. voting public won't be scared shi...err witless enough to fund the Department of Hopeless Stupidity and won't keep voting for bloviating Republican idiots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Jul 15 - 01:26 PM Are you under the impression iran is an Arab country, musicmick? ..................... Best definition I know of for terrorism is that it is carrying out violent acts against civilians with the aim of achieving some political objective. Mostly this is done by governments, but whoever does it is acting as terrorists. Of course it may not be the case that everything people who carry out terrorist acts constitutes terrorism, and the term "terrorist" does tend to suggest fulltime terrorism, which isn't the case much of the time (eg Hamas, or rhe Israeli, US or Iranian governments). Even when it comes to violence, acts directed at military targets, for example, do not qualify as "terrorism". Isis is perhaps a rare case where the label might be accurate. Generally however I think it is better to avoid using the noun, and just use terrorist as an adjective. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 17 Jul 15 - 01:40 PM No attack on a military target can be called terrorism ! That seems absurd to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST Date: 17 Jul 15 - 03:54 PM Whatever you want to call it or not call it matters not a whit to those killed and their loved ones so, just go on and keep fiddling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Jul 15 - 04:05 PM The terrorist is the one with the small bomb. [Brendan Behan] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Jul 15 - 04:10 PM An attack on a military target may well involve an atrocity, it may indeed be a war crime, but, no, it's not terrorism. Just because something doesn't meet the definition for a terrorist act doesn't mean it's somehow less terrible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,Hilo Date: 17 Jul 15 - 06:46 PM So a soldier shot dead at an Ottawa war memorial is not a victim of terriorism ? Soldier dead on the streets of London ? a soldier run down in Quebec ? What do you call that ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Greg F. Date: 17 Jul 15 - 06:48 PM What do you call that ? Dead soldiers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 17 Jul 15 - 06:53 PM Yes Greg and who killed them ? Stop being so glib and actually contribut sOmething ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Greg F. Date: 17 Jul 15 - 06:58 PM Hilo, you want to take that up with Bush, Wolfowitz, Cheney and Blair. They're the four horsemen of the current IS/ISIS apocalypse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Bill D Date: 17 Jul 15 - 07:08 PM Terrorism is a 'useful' word... like 'folk'. People use it because they want a single term to refer to attacks by In many cases, 'terror' IS the goal. Those who do it usually have no illusions their act will have serious effect by itself, but it is intended to cause fear and discomfort... and to make their enemies spend inordinate amounts of money trying to defend against it. Any semi-useful word used as a generalization inevitably gets overused and applied to situations where it may NOT be directly appropriate. (Note the newish phrases 'urban terrorism' and 'economic, religious, political, or ideological' terrorism to clarify some events.) Drop it? I doubt we can...unless someone comes up with another term-- which would no doubt suffer the same overuse and confusion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 17 Jul 15 - 07:13 PM Greg, I asked you an easy question; who killed them ? You gave me easy lie ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 17 Jul 15 - 07:49 PM The more I reflect on merrzy,s reason for refreshing this thread , the more distasteful and shallow I find it . Unbelievable really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Jul 15 - 07:50 PM Another IRONIC note....the 'so-called libs' tend to sympathize with the Muslim cause...and certainly avoid the thought of calling their tactics 'terrorism'...but wait a minute...is there a separation of Church and State in the Theocracy of Islam???..and don't they represent a government that opposes women's rights, and will put to death homosexuals?? Now who is being the puppet here? Liberals love to spout hypocrisy...but only when it suits their 'progress'! ...unless some of you ASSUME otherwise!! Peace! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Jul 15 - 08:04 PM Here's another question or two. Eitan Livni was director of operations for the Irgun, who blew up the King David hotel in 1946, which killed 91 people and injured many more. Was he a terrorist? Menachem Begin was the Irgun commander at the time. He later became Israel's top dog. Was he a terrorist? Livni's daughter,Tzipi, is a prominent cabinet politician in the Israeli government. And they say that democracy isn't dead. I'll let you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Jul 15 - 08:08 PM Oops, I don't know how those last two sentences got in there from an earlier post of mine. They don't belong! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,Hilo Date: 17 Jul 15 - 08:11 PM I don,t see the defenders of terror as liberals or "left wing" . I see them as right wing reactionaries of the worst kind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Jul 15 - 08:15 PM HiLo: "I don,t see the defenders of terror as liberals or "left wing".." 'Left wing' of WHAT???? Or is the 'left wing/right wing thing just an illusion??? Right wing and left wing are all on the same bird!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Jul 15 - 08:26 PM I didn't really finish my point. Begin and Livnj's daughter went on to have "honourable" political careers. Is that what happens with terrorists/terrorist offspring? Are there good terrorists and bad terrorists? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 17 Jul 15 - 09:16 PM I don't see how the daughters enter into it. But I can' recall ever hearing of a good terrorist. My point is that to suggest that we are all so stupid that we don't know what a terrorist is, is the point at which one has to stand up and say... Enough already! no , we are not misusIng the word. There have been zioinist, Irish and Muslim terrorists and many others.... They are all evil. But to pretend that word terrorist the problem is to have your head so far up your arse that you can' see daylight. I usually don't get too involved these types of discussions, but the assumption that we are dim as sheeP, drives me crazy,,, it is so odious and condescending that half reasOnable person should be offended by it . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: akenaton Date: 18 Jul 15 - 07:58 AM Well, I disagree about your disquiet on the reopening of the thread Hilo, it's lovely to read a reasonable discussion conducted in a reasonable fashion......the thread would have had to be closed if it had been opened with the present "contributors"! It's also nice to read the contributions of Little Hawk, always thought provoking and civil, no matter the subject. Little Hawk was the greatest loss to this forum, without doubt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Jul 15 - 08:49 AM Admittedly, Ms Livni is among the more dovish Israeli politicians these days (it's all relative, of course), but her father was a terrible man, a terrorist by whatever measure you care to apply, and she has followed him Into the political arena. I'm just wondering whether I'd want the unapologetic daughter of one of the Great Train Robbers looking after my money. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jul 15 - 09:02 AM "But I can' recall ever hearing of a good terrorist" Don't suppose you've got too much time for Nelson Mandela then? Terrorism is a convenient label to stick on those who you don't like - some people consider them freedom fighters - depends which side you're on, of course Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Jul 15 - 09:57 AM I wonder what HiLo thinks my reason was? I think it was not wanting to start a new one when there was already something so close to what I wanted to discuss. In answer to the military thing, now that there is no draft, anyone in the military has volunteered to kill or be killed for a salary. If they are then attacked, it isn't terrorism because it's the military's *job* to be the target of attack so that the civilians, whom they have volunteered to protect, are not so targeted. It is attacks directed towards those civilians which are terrorism. The one Marine who died in the bombing that killed Dad is a case in point. The target was the civilians, and it was the Marine's *job* to die protecting them. I admire and respect and thank him for it every day that I think of my dad being killed by terrorists, but to my mind, that attack killed 16 civilians through terrorism and one Marine through occupational hazard. Same act. Same actors. Different victim. It matters, HiLo, whether the term terrorism is thrown around whenever moslems are the killers. It matters to moslems and it should matter to you. It matters to me, whose father was not, not, not a military man, but rather a conscientious objector in WWII who volunteered to be a guinea pig for medical experiments since it was the only thing he could volunteer for morally, and who did not, not, not volunteer to be in a war zone since the US government had declared Beirut safe and restaffed the embassy with civilians who were not, not, not offered danger pay, and in fact the people who had been there had been taken *off* danger pay. If "freedom fighters" target civilians for death to make their political point, those freedom fighters are terrorists. If they target the military, they aren't, even if sneaky and firing from behind stone walls instead of meeting them where the Redcoats would have preferred, or bombing them in their beds while they are not being watchful. If "moslems" are targeting the military to achieve their political aims, those moslems are not terrorists. When they bomb a market full of civilians, whether other moslems or foreign tourists or people they think are not moslem, then they are terrorists. And the use of the term terrorism to mean "we Americans are agin it" is reprehensible. GregF has a point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Jul 15 - 10:16 AM Ooh, from Slate Magazine: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/07/the_chattanooga_killings_aren_t_terrorism_they_are_a_rational_horrific_act.html Blicky |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 18 Jul 15 - 10:32 AM Well Mrrzy, we shall have to agree to disagree. As for Jim, well, what can one say ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Greg F. Date: 18 Jul 15 - 10:46 AM If "moslems" are targeting the military to achieve their political aims I understand and appreciate that you put "Moslems" in quotes, but just to clarify, it ain't "Moslems". Its crazy people who happen to be of the Moslem faith. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: akenaton Date: 18 Jul 15 - 10:54 AM Mrrzy...The people who burned the pilot to death in the gruesome video, must surely be "terrorists"? Yet the pilot was definitely a combatant. Terrorism can take many forms...to frighten other govts into compliance....to frighten other populations into changing their govts...as in the Greek scenario. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: akenaton Date: 18 Jul 15 - 10:59 AM Greg..When we bombed Dresden or Hiroshima, did we stop to think that it was only a few Nazis, or Imperial soldiers who were the badies? Were all the dead peasants in Vietnam, killed by allied bombing or maimed by Agent Orange, really Communists...and if they were, did they have it coming because they all wore the same hats? Terrorism takes many forms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Greg F. Date: 18 Jul 15 - 11:04 AM I have no idea what you're rabbiting on about, Ake. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: akenaton Date: 18 Jul 15 - 11:16 AM Terrorism is used by all as a weapon Greg, Dresden and Hiroshima were embarked upon to break the will of the German and Japanese people, not to defeat their armies. IS is Muslim fundamentalism taken to its logical conclusion "the means justifying the ends"....and all who support those ends however tacitly is not blameless. BTW what happened to the Merkel thread? if there is really subjects which "must not be discussed," should we not be made aware of them? I saw no serious personal abuse or actionable statements. Why is the personal abuse in the Greek thread allowed to stand? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: akenaton Date: 18 Jul 15 - 11:17 AM Sorry, "end justifying the means" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST Date: 18 Jul 15 - 11:22 AM Its crazy people who happen to be of the Moslem faith. It is Muslims who are applying the precepts of Islam in a literal fashion. Whether this makes them crazy people is a matter of opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,Dormie Date: 18 Jul 15 - 12:25 PM What was the cause of bombs dropped on Dresden? How can anyone shrug of the bombing of Poland,London,and many other places. The Germans used the latest technology available to them at the beginning of the war.Also the same goes for Pearl Harbour vid-a-vis Japan. Does ANYONE dare to think if the Atomic Bombs had been available to Hitler,or Tojo, they would have sat on their hands,and not used them? Get a life!! There have always been lunatics in the world,the problem is, the more peopled in the world,the more Crazy people,the more Nymphomaniacs,the more religious Bible Thumpers,the more Drunks,and so on,we are bound to have on Planet Earth. If there is a God ??? There is only ONE! So all peoples are giving Him different names. Nuff said |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Jul 15 - 09:27 PM Nymphomaniacs?? Heheheh! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Jul 15 - 11:35 PM People of the moslem faith are moslems, people who believe in the divinity of jesus are christians, and if they commit acts of violence targeting civilians to achieve political ends, they are terrorists. Although only a teeny tiny minuscule fraction of moslems are terrorists, the large majority of terrorists by now are moslem (since ETA and the IRA gave it up). I am not sure which video is referred to in The people who burned the pilot to death in the gruesome video, must surely be "terrorists"? but no, that's just it, it isn't the gruesomeness that makes something terrorism; if the target is military, the term is not appropriate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Jul 15 - 05:47 AM Depends whether you regard the actions of certain states to be terrorism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jul 15 - 09:00 AM Does anyone, apart from BBC, object to the word being used about IS? The Independent 3 hours ago, "Asked to address the threat posed by Isis during an interview on US television network NBC, Mr Cameron said: "Look, we know that we have to defeat Isil, we have to destroy this caliphate, whether it is in Iraq or in Syria. "That is a key part of defeating this terrorist scourge that we face. "I want Britain to do more. I'll always have to take my parliament with me. We're talking and discussing at the moment, including with the opposition parties in Britain, what more we can do. He went on: "But be it no doubt, we're committed to working with you to destroy the caliphate in both countries," he told the Meet The Press programme to be broadcast today." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jul 15 - 09:34 AM "Does anyone, apart from BBC, object to the word being used about IS?" Can't see how anybody can object to the word being used correctly about genuine terrorists like Isis The problem arises when the word becomes a convenient catch-all to describe anybody whose politics they don't approve of (or who threaten their oil supplies.) Some of the worst offenders are powers that are no strangers to acts of terrorism in their own National, political or economic interests It is worth remembering the part some of these states have played in assisting the rise of Isis, et al Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 19 Jul 15 - 02:55 PM Steve Shaw: "Depends whether you regard the actions of certain states to be terrorism.".... ....In response to Mrrzy: ..."The people who burned the pilot to death in the gruesome video, must surely be "terrorists"? but no, that's just it, it isn't the gruesomeness that makes something terrorism; if the target is military, the term is not appropriate. What qualifies, in your opinion? Sometimes, in war, which is, in fact, lawlessness run amok, one side may not adhere to the 'politically correct' rules of 'civilized warfare', as agreed to, in the Geneva Convention. Remember that the terrorists see Democracy(and its tenants) as being Satanic, and therefore, according to them, as being targets of slaughter......so what do you suggest? GfS P.S. I've noticed that most all my posts, which have been dead on target to the topics, get deleted.... What is this??...a war,(see above), on words |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Greg F. Date: 19 Jul 15 - 05:31 PM Remember that the terrorists see Democracy(and its tenants) as being Satanic Not so, Goofus. They see Western culture as "satanic". Then there's "The Satanic Verses"...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,Hilo Date: 19 Jul 15 - 07:33 PM The writing of wich put an author under threat of assassination. That is one form of terrorism, is it not ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Greg F. Date: 19 Jul 15 - 08:15 PM Actually, it was the publication of which, Hilo. How many letters do you think President Obama gets every day threatening assassination? And not from Muslims, mind you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Jul 15 - 08:51 PM What qualifies isn't a matter of opinion, but of definition: Title 22, Section 2656 of the U.S. Code: "premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST,Hilo Date: 19 Jul 15 - 08:55 PM Greg , you never cease to amaze ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 15 - 09:05 PM Greg , you never cease to amaze ! Not hard to read, I've had his number for a long time now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to drop the word 'terrorism' & why. From: Greg F. Date: 19 Jul 15 - 10:06 PM Then, by all means, give me a call, guest, and we'll chat. |