learning to play by ear?

Subject: learning to play by ear?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 05:41 PM

I would be interested to hear how others, developed their ear playing.
I developed mine by using written music.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: alex s
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 05:53 PM

Not trying to be funny, but I developed mine by listening.

I went to lots of sessions and gradually got used to hearing chord changes, chord progressions and key changes. Unless a tune is very complex you soon get a good "feel" for it.

I think I can walk into most sessions and get a reasonable grasp of what's being played and so join in fairly well. My music-reading son says he envies that ability.

My classically trained colleague/bandmate, however, can do both (i.e. play by ear or instantly sight-read) - that to me is the ideal.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:01 PM

Scales and modal improvisation/noodling (this was on the flute).

There are lots of scalelike tunes that fall naturally under the fingers once you've got used to playing similar sequences - Barbara Allen, The Broomfield Hill, Lovely Joan and so on.

And there are other tunes that are largely made of arpeggios - they seem natural after you've done some noodling around with those.

I've always used written music as well but can't recall it ever doing much to help me play by ear, except that I could do a quick scan of the tune to establish its key signature, mode and range.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: treewind
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:10 PM

Sat in sessions, listened and tried to follow.

Prior to that, I could read music and given some time could learn to play things from memory. Even now my ability to retain what I've learnt by ear is limited - in a session I may (sometimes) be able to play along with a tune someone else is doing after three times through, but 5 minutes later I've forgotten every note of it. Repeat every week for a month or two and it'll start sinking in.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:11 PM

Dick has responded to two threads on the Session on this issue and now he's at it over here on this flogged-to-death topic. No-one is taking much notice over there. Hardly surprising when someone rolls up to tell us you learn by ear by reading "the dots," I suppose. In three posts, all short, quasi-enigmatic and undeveloped, both here and over there, Dick has thus far failed to elaborate as to how reading the dots has anything to do with learning by ear. Go for it, Dick, old chap. We're all ears.

_________________________________________________

It doesn't matter where else it was discussed. At Mudcat it is a viable topic, and may or may not take a new direction than some other forum might offer. A couple of you are determined to follow behind GSS and "out" wherever else he is discussing music and not offering anything new or helpful to the conversation. You're demolishing good threads. Stop the stalking, and don't be surprised if a moderator removes you inappropriate remarks. ---Mudelf

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:17 PM

I got involved in playing with bands whose material I didn't know. I'd get maybe twice through the verse as the singer sang and then be expected to play the tune. I could already play by ear but doing this over a few years and I got a lot better. There were no rehearsals and no dots. This was strictly for money and no one paid for rehearsals.

I started in the early 60s. There was no internet, if there were teachers they were unaffordable and classical. I learned chords from friends and used those to play stuff I heard on the radio as best I could.

In a way learning by ear is really learning by memory. You have to be able to remember what goes through your ears in order to be able to compare it to stuff you play on your instrument.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:32 PM

I think some people here have had formal instruction using the Curwen sol-fa system.

How old were you when you started and how long did it take?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:33 PM

to be serious, the best way is to learn simple tunes like nursery rhymes first and then play them in different keys, not appropriate for harmonica players but for instruments that are relatively chromatic a very good idea trying them in different keys, then scales and different intervals and learning to associate certain intervals with differnt tunes the first opening notes ba ba black sheep, are the intervals for tuning the fiddle, a major sixth,do to la is the opening of my bonnie, so stsrt of with associations. gradually go on and try christnmas carols and eventually more difficult tunes, BUT DO NOT USE THE DOTS

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:41 PM

I assume dots are music notation ??

I can figure out what notation tells me to do, but it's much easier for me to hear the song a few times and go from there. YMMV.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 07:30 PM

then play them in different keys, not appropriate for harmonica players but for instruments that are relatively chromatic

I haven't read such twaddle in a very long time. And here's me thinking you played the harmonica.


"Relatively chromatic." Heheh!

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 07:32 PM

I learned to read music at an early age, and was, I suppose. to some extent dependent upon written music. I managed to learn long piano pieces for school concerts without the music in front of me after repeateldy playing it WITH the music - but that's learning by rote, not by ear.
Then about 12 years ago, I started on other instruments where learning by ear was more of the norm, although we might still be given the "dots" after the lesson was over.
I have to agree whole-heartedly that both skills (reading music, and playing by ear) are totally compatible, non-exclusive and complementary, and if you can do both you are "quids in".
Having read with some degree of horror, another thread on here, which initially sounded quite interesting, but rapidly degenerated into a slanging match, can I make a plea to get any petty arguments/personality clashes out of Mudcat forthwith!

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:06 PM

"Relatively chromatic" is a pretty good description of a recorder. You can do a much wider range of keys easily than on a whistle, and in principle you can play in any, but it does get harder in the extreme ones. Ditto a simple system clarinet, 8-key flute or Northumbrian pipes. Or for that matter the lever harp.

On a descant recorder I can play "The Lea Rig" in every key between B major and F major in descending semitone shifts; it's an interesting exercise. I must pull that one out in a session sometime. (I haven't been in the same session as Cathal McConnell for a while, but he has a perverse fondness for that sort of trick and would go for it).

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:17 PM

I can play Auld Lang Syne and Dirty Old Town in three different keys on any diatonic harmonica. Dozens of other tunes in two keys. And I routinely play in five different modes on diatonic harmonicas: Aeolian, Dorian, Ionian, Mixolydian and Lydian. No bending, no overblows. As for relatively chromatic, it's either chromatic or it isn't chromatic. If it's diatonic with a few possible accidentals, it still isn't chromatic. Let's not alter definitions.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:18 PM

Gotta a $2 pitch pipe, a $20 geetar and a couple folk music books with the chords diagrammed over the changes...

That was, ahhhh, 1964... Come a long way since then...

B~

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:49 PM

Let's not alter definitions.

Nobody's altering anything. "Relatively chromatic" is a new term for something that could do with a name. If you have a different term for instruments that can play in any key but not with equal ease, what is it?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:00 PM

It's chromatic if it can play every note of every scale. Like a chromatic harmonica. Not like a stock D/G box, that can play every note in the diatonic scales of D and G, and a couple of crucial accidentals to boot, but not every note of every scale. A B/C box is chromatic. The fully-chromatic instruments I've mentioned can play every note of every scale but that does not mean they can play in every key with equal ease. I doubt whether that applies to most "chromatic" instruments. You can play every note of every scale on a C chromatic harmonica but you cannot effectively play Irish music on it. Which implies that you can't play in every key with equal ease. Etcetera. You have an instrument that plays diatonic scales and some, but not all, accidentals and you need a name that does not include the word "chromatic." Or maybe you don't need a name!

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 05:37 AM

the essential point is this, try simple tunes in as many different keys as you can, even in b flat on an anglo, gradually build up the diificulty of the tune, my advice is to leave reels with many parts to last.
my point about the harmonica was that on harmonicas that are not chromatic, once you have learned a tune on a d the positioning will be the same on an e, so there is absolutely no point, the positioning of all keys is different on a chromatic harmonica.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: banjoman
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 05:54 AM

I am confused - ok I am a banjo player - but I learned to play using fingers not ears.(not applicable to harmonica)

Written music confuses me further, to me its just a mish mass of dots and lines which mean nothing. I do sometimes envy those to whom it means something. As for me, I listen to a tune over and over and when its in my head I can play it on banjo or guitar or harmonica

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 06:10 AM

I mentioned somewhere on the other threads that I believe everybody has the ability to "play by ear" unless they are profoundly deaf, of course.
However, for various reasons, they have never developed this skill.
Perhaps, they haven't had much interest in music until now or have "forgotten" after years of formal musical education and relying on "the dots".

As others have suggested, the best way is to pick a tune or song you know "off by heart" and try to find the notes of the melody on your instrument. In all the various keys, if possible. It all depends what you play and arguments here about what is or what is not chromatic aren't particularly relevant or helpful here. Keep it simple.

There's a lot of controversy about learning scales but I would suggest it's a good idea to find out *for yourself* where the "doh, ray, me......etc" are...in each key. You don't even have to worry too much about what key is which as long as you can learn to find your way about the instrument.

Now the above is assuming that you haven't played a particular instrument before and, possibly, have no previous knowledge of music.

I can imagine there's likely to be more difficuly if you already play music from "the dots" as you have to "unlearn" a few things or, at least, put them to the back of your mind.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 06:16 AM

As you will realise, my last post is very "simplistic".

Almost every player will pick up some musical theory along the way even although they may not be able to read written music, e.g. guitarists will usually know which keys they are in and which chords to play(Sometimes :-)) ).

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:02 AM

I do sometimes envy those to whom it means something. As for me, I listen to a tune over and over and when its in my head I can play it on banjo or guitar or harmonica
That is to be applauded. The trouble with a lot of people to whom the dots mean something is that they mean the wrong thing: rigidity.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:59 AM

That is to be applauded. The trouble with a lot of people to whom the dots mean something is that they mean the wrong thing: rigidity"
not so, a good musician, who works from the dots, realises there is a lot of interpretation in the dots, this is true in the classical world and in the trad world, in the classical world the interpreation of the dots is at the command of the conductor, and in quartets etc it is down to a consenus of the four players but the music is not rigid it is open to interpretation.
in the trad world a good example of the lack of rigidity is the interpretation of dottedness in hornpipes, for example in Scotland they are sometimes swung more than in ireland,
then there are jigs, they are often written out evenly, but they are not intended to be played that way, the vast majority of trad musicians who read music, understand this.
"once you have learned a tune on a d the positioning will be the same on an e, so there is absolutely no point, the positioning of all keys is different on a chromatic harmonica."
ok, I cant see your problem, bit i will clarify.
take a blues harp in g, take a blues harp in a, play a tune on one, play the same tune on the other, the positioning of the tune is exactly the same on both,
this is not the same when you take a chromatic harmonica in g MAJOR play a tune on it ,then on the same g chromatic harmonica play the same in a MAJOR, is that clear?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:56 AM

Hasn't there has always been a trade off between playing from dots, learning by ear and playing fom memory? Isn't that why so many tunes have survived in so may different variations?

Isn't that why so many tune books have survived in every format from the backs of pieces of paper, via individual musicians tunebooks to a number of re-published versions of The Complete Dancing Master - plundered by CJ Sharp when he stopped collecting tunes.

I simply don't hear all the notes in most country dance tunes. When I learn by ear I then go on to play only some of the notes in the tune. Know, at 66, and after learning to play off the dots 8 years ago and can play all the notes AND generally in the right order.

To repeat another point I have made a number of times - these are mostly country dance tunes ie they survived because people played them for dancing. You can play them for any reason at all. But their is nothing traditional or specailly important about playing them in sets of 3, very quick and withouy saying what any of them are.

In our tunes sessions we ahve dots for those who can use them and most play from memory and a few can pick up the tunes after 1 or 2 hearings.

All good fun

L in C#

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 09:46 AM

a very refeshing post, les, music should be fun, if people get too much up their own backsides about it, they need to reevaluate

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 10:21 AM

How does one go about learning/improving ear playing after having learned to play exclusively from notation?
It's about training your brain/ear/fingers (or voice) to make connections, and a multi-pronged approach will be best.

First of all, spend time with your instrument and very simple tunes (nursery rhymes were suggested) and try to pick them out bit by bit.
You learn to recognize intervals and reproduce them only by doing it, and of course doing it badly at first. You then move on to recognizing chords and chord changes the same way. A little theory will help narrow down the possibilities when it comes to chord changes, too.

Second, if you're one who learned the "dots" in such a way as to make you an organic playback device, you will be well served to learn the theory to go with it. Seriously, theory applied to the music you already know will go a long way to helping you understand -- and later, hear -- the aural implications of the various bits that go together to make a tune or chord progression.

My problem has always been the reverse. I got very good at ear playing very early, and scamped the discipline of learning to sight play. It's hard work to remedy that, and may be just as hard to learn to use your ear after years of being a servant of the dots.

-Glenn

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 10:21 AM

Another way to learn is by finger pattern and muscle memory. It's common for Highland pipers to learn by watching the instructor's fingers - in some bands everybody keeps on doing that for years. And fretboard positions are used a lot in the early stages of learning the oud. Guitar and lute tab formalizes that into a notation system.

Of all of those, the oud method is the least disruptive to ear learning, since it's a fretless instrument and you have to listen to yourself, wherever your basic idea of where to finger the note comes from; there's a natural transition to ear or staff notation playing.

You often hear rock-centred guitarists who've been more screwed up by learning through tab than any classically-trained player has been by staff notation. It shortcuts the imagination as much as cranking a piano roll.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 10:28 AM

"It shortcuts the imagination as much as cranking a piano roll."
YES! Well put.
-G

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: selby
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 11:11 AM

I believe I can play reasonably well from the dots and remember/learn tunes by rote, but can no matter how hard I try, I cannot play in a session well.
I loose the tune if someone is not playing the same as me and once lost, although I may know the tune well, I can not find it again, anyone else have this problem.
I play English Concertina.
Keith

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 12:24 PM

All of us have different brain connections to our ears and our fingers ! Some lucky ones CAN sight read and busk a tune equally well while others HAVE to have the music in front of them .
I Suffer from two things that are mutually xclusive - A GOOD ear , and terminal Idleness , so although I do know what each pigeon sat on its telegraph wire is , I have never sat down and learned to read properly .

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 01:20 PM

yes,Terry, but you play well by ear.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,The Don
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 02:51 PM

'It doesn't matter where else it was discussed. At Mudcat it is a viable topic, and may or may not take a new direction than some other forum might offer. A couple of you are determined to follow behind GSS and "out" wherever else he is discussing music and not offering anything new or helpful to the conversation. You're demolishing good threads. Stop the stalking, and don't be surprised if a moderator removes you inappropriate remarks. ---Mudelf'

Mudelf should realize that Dick Miles has a long record of trying to settle arguments on Mudcat that he's already lost on The Session. Dick just does it to score points against people who've proved that he knows absolutely fuck all about Irish traditional music.

It would make far more sense to advise Dick to stop posting these threads rather than attempt to clamp down on those who rightly question his motives.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:20 PM

Well said indeed, Don. One does have to ask whether a dishonestly-conceived thread can really be a good thread. There are two threads currently active on TheSession to do with learning by ear which were honestly conceived and which are brilliantly productive.

Anyhoo:

Keith wrote I believe I can play reasonably well from the dots and remember/learn tunes by rote, but can no matter how hard I try, I cannot play in a session well.
I loose the tune if someone is not playing the same as me and once lost, although I may know the tune well, I can not find it again, anyone else have this problem

You hit the nail on the head. Learn a tune from notation, or even from just one particular recording, so that you can play it at home confidently, then take it into a session. You're toast! That is perfectly normal and is what is to be expected. It happens to me whenever I pick up a tune from a CD. The best way to learn a tune is to learn it from people playing it in your actively-listening/interacting presence. You can't always wait for that (I know - I live in the middle of nowhere in an area in which people who play Irish tunes are like rocking-horse shit). Stick with it, though, and dismiss any notion that might be lurking that you're right and they're wrong! Eventually you'll still be screwing up, but you'll be screwing up with insouciance!

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:40 PM

One does have to ask whether a dishonestly-conceived thread can really be a good thread.

On just about every forum I've ever been on, a significant proportion of the most interesting discussions have been started and occasionally prodded by trolls, crazies and utter idiots. How good a question is depends on what answers you give it. I think of inputs of spluttering nuttiness into a thread as something like the randomized, pattern-disrupting suggestions you get from the I Ching. They're a challenge to your imagination to do something constructive wih them.

Selby: I seem to see an unusually large proportion of English concertina players come adrift playing by ear, even after years of experience - either they can't do it at all or it sounds stilted. I don't see the same in many players of bisonoric instruments. My guess is that the ergonomics of the English isn't a good fit for most players' low-level neural processing.

I am always delighted to hear how many people at Whitby manage to play the English with guts and expression - I don't hear much playing of that quality in Scotland. Maybe there's more of a community for them in northern England? If so you need to find it.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:06 PM

It only matters to a couple of you that this "argument" has ever happened someplace else.

No one else cares.

You're trashing one thread after another as you challenge someone you disagree with. So don't participate in threads that GSS starts, how difficult is that? They will languish for lack of participation rather than die from a strangle-hold around the neck of the reader trying to see past the bickering to the actual meat of the discussion.

I'm making a point of spending more time above the line, posting lyrics in a project of Joe's, and reading, without remarks, to learn more about the songs I'll be dealing with in my father's extensive collection. You guys make this really difficult.

SRS

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:12 PM

Sure, Jack. It's just that some of us don't like to see honest-to goodness posters being hoodwinked by someone who starts threads here with ulterior motives. This self-same thread could easily have been started with with a honest statement from the instigator that he has found frustration elsewhere in responses to a particular topic and in consequence he'd be interested to hear what we think over here from our perspective. Simple. All too often, though, the threads we're talking about here are started after the instigator has had a bust-up on TheSession, and he knows that some of us are over here too. Poisonous, no?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:16 PM

This isn't a thread about songs as far as I can see, so I fail to see how anyone in this thread is making your life difficult in the way you describe.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:21 PM

"The trouble with a lot of people to whom the dots mean something is that they mean the wrong thing: rigidity."

The trouble, of course, is not with the "dots," it's with the people.

When it comes to performing a piece learned from the "dots," it's no different from an actor who has memorized a speech, say, from a Shakespearean play, learned from a script or from a book.

I have heard a number of different recordings of Marc Anthony's speech from "Julius Caesar" ("Friends, Romans, countrymen. . . .") performed by different actors. John Gielgud, Lawrence Olivier, Marlon Brando, and others. And each actor had his own take on it. They were all well done, and they were all quite different.

The "rigidity" is not in the "dots," it's in the person performing the "dots" and not having an overview of the whole piece of music and what it's all about.

Anyone who simply refuses to learn to read music out of either laziness or some irrational fear of "the dots" taking over their minds and rendering them "rigid" is depriving himself or herself of the availability of a vast resource of material.

Playing by the dots or playing by ear? No reason whatever that you can't do both.

I do. Why limit yourself?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:39 PM

Those actors are all incredibly accomplished and experienced in their trade. A seasoned player of traditional music who has learned thousands of tunes and played in many different situations will be perfectly fine using dots to learn a new tune or two. He or she already knows that dots are far less than bare bones and that their art demands the utmost in flexibility. OK, so take your Shakespeare speech into a class of thirteen-year-olds down the local comprehensive and ask then to read it out. Yeah, you can encourage them and praise them, but on a purely objective level their performances, considered alongside those pros you mentioned, will be stilted crap. That's what you get from learning by rote from a book/dots. Stilted crap. So what do you do? You tell them that the words on the page are useless in themselves as a guide to performance and you take them to hear Gielgud, Olivier and Brando. The real thing, not a thing on a page. The with learning traditional tunes are obvious. You get under the skin of this music by listening to it, preferably in live playing, not by reading squiggles on a page.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:41 PM

I'll swear I typed the word parallel in there somewhere.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 09:04 PM

Steve, that's not a reason NOT to learn to read music.

Or, for that matter, read in general.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 09:37 PM

Steve, I don't have to justify why I read particular threads or why I'd prefer they not be filled with your petty-ass squabbles, and your stance that you can trash threads at will if you feel the reason it was started is "dishonest" is reprehensible.

Don, you know better than any how my father learned to play guitar - you taught him. He knew how to read the notes and make notations when he was writing songs or transcribing. It's a way to learn something on your own and it's a tool to pass music onto others who aren't in the room to hear. He was much better at memorizing that I am - I see it in my son, also, memorizing long complex classical pieces on guitar that I would never have remembered on the piano. I took many years of lessons, and I entertain myself at the keyboard, but I tend to think that the notes on paper got in my way, as it may for others with dyslexia. The act of reading was more of a challenge, so the music was harder to learn. I'd have preferred (in hindsight) to explore approaches to music theory that involved more playing without a sheet of music in front of me all of the time. I'm not saying I wanted to learn by ear without knowing how to read music, but if I had mastered improvisation based on theory I think this would have supported the notes better when I got around to them. (Perhaps only another dyslexic might understand this possibly backwards approach I'm suggesting.)
   
SRS

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:37 AM

Don, I can both read and read music. Very useful skills, both. But using your ability to read music to learn, as a beginner or relative beginner, Irish tunes is not useful. Let there be no confusion.

SRS, Not only have I not trashed this thread, I've contributed to its substantive topic. Neither have I asked you to justify your choice of threads to read. But I am puzzled as to how a thread which is mostly about learning tunes by ear can upset your plans to post lyrics and study songs. That's all. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:03 AM

I am not at all clear why playing by ear is held by some to be some amazingly important skill. It is a a skill and so is playing from the dots. Being able to sit in a session and play a tune after one hearing is also a skill - a more impressive skill than simply learning slowly by ear. Being able to play complicated tunes in unfamiliar time signatures is also an impressive skill - learned by millions of children worldwide - but nevertheless impressive.

Now, we sit in pubs and for the large part play simple country dance tunes ie tunes that were written and have survived for the most part because somebody played them for dancing. Most of us who do this love the tunes, love playing them, love playing them with others and enjoy the social company of our friends whilist we do it. Some of us play in bands whilst people dance - also great fun.

Some people who play in pub sessions seem to claim some special relationship with the tunes that can only be gained by learning by ear, playing by ear or being able to pick up tunes on one or two hearings.

Am I alone in thinking this claim is inconvincing and that in terms of the last 400 years the pub tunes session is not particularly 'traditional' (sorry, I don't know what that means either) but something that has mostly grown out of the 60s/70s Revival?

Best wishes

L in C#

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:35 AM

It doesn't matter how untraditional sessions are (actually, you could say that most instruments played in sessions are untraditional - we could rule out just about everything from Irish sessions except for fiddle, flute and pipes). We are playing tunes that are passed on via an aural process, which is why you hear tunes played differently everywhere you go. That is the heart and soul of the music. Tunes are not laid-down successions of notes. Without fail, in my experience, people who see the tunes that way always play badly. Rigidity would see this music off, and rigidity is what you get when lots of people learn tunes from tune books or play from music. Flexibility means that you get together with your mates, you listen to them, they listen to you and you never need to practise or "work out a version." You can do that with your gigging band but you don't do it for sessions. A tune notated on a page adds a layer of authority that is totally at odds with how the music is passed on.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:53 AM

Your flashmob would have been more mobile and more weatherproof with two music stands less to carry.

It extends the range of situations you can play in if you can play well by ear. Christmas carol singalongs, old people's home entertainment, whetever. Doesn't have to be in any way traditional.

Stockhausen made it a minimal requirement for anybody playing in his groups that they should be able to play back ANYTHING after only one hearing. Even if their instrument was a trumpet and the sound was recorded crowd noise. I don't imagine the Stockhausen family band did many nursing home gigs but they had what it takes.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:14 AM

You state this case extremely well Steve and much of it is gernerally endorsed by people who play in pub sessions.

I have infront of me "The Nothumbrian Pipers' Tune Book", John of The Green The Cheshire Way" and "The Great Northern Tune Book - Edited by Matt Seattle from The William Vickers Collection of 1770 and I can throw in The Compleat Dancing Master for good measure. Not to mention O'Neill's 1001 Dance Tunes of Ireland - collected in Chicago? Loads and loads of other written sources have come to light in the last 20 years, as I feel sure you are aware.

It is clear that the written and aural tradition have both contributed and continue to contribute to the survival and the reproduction of these great little tunes. It has been argued that one reason that tunes in Irish Sessions are played in threes, and often the same sets of three is because the record companies that recorded Michael Gorman, and others, found they could fit three tunes on a 78 record. How traditional is that?

I completely agree, how could I not, that people getting together in small groups to sort out what tunes to play and how to play them, leads to good tunes played well. The evidence from the written sources shows that this has happened over the centuries and many versions of some tunes have evolved. The logic also leads us to expect this process of evolution to continue and in some places it does. Odd though that at loads of festivals the tune players get together and manage to play pretty well the same versions of hundreds of popular tunes.

What the tune books do, and we have ours on the tables in The Beech every time we meet, is enable people who sight read and could not play in most other sessions to sit down and join in with the rest of us who play from memory, however we learned.

I like that.

As for rigidity few things are more rigid than another set of Michael Gorman reels played so fast it's hard to tell what they are, especially when nobody names them either before or after they have been played.

Best wishes

L in C#

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:17 AM

Jack, we could manage with less music stands. We could actually manage with none but that would mean some of our friends could not play with us. As far as I know most of the Beech Band enjoy playing with the rest of the Beech Band. Maybe you would too?

Best wishes

L in C#

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:33 AM

most traditional musicians who read music understand that the notes are not rigid, for example jigs are written evenly, but they are not played evenly, the same goes for hornpipes the amount of dottedness is open to interpretation, again most music readers are aware of this, sometimes in scotland and england they are played more dotted than in ireland.   
Classical musicians who read from music are aware that the music is open to interpretation, they do not generally speaking play the notes from the music rigidly, you are of course right about listening to each other.
hear is an example of four musicians playing from music who are not playing rigidly, if you are patient or flick on to the end, the final piece, which is for a quartet, at 4 30 is not rigid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kck9jxKgz4

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:35 AM

I think you mean Michael Coleman.

I can't speak for the Irish scene, but in the Scottish one the reason for tunes most often going in sets of two or four is because that's how you want them for the most common dances. And because of that demand, there were a lot of recordings that strung together sets in that way. Often the names got mislaid in production, so people who learned the tunes off records got the wrong names or no names at all.

I'm not often near Manchester these days but yes I'll look you up if I get the chance.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:48 AM

Thanks Jack, it is indeed Mr Coleman

Les