learning to play by ear?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 09:03 PM

I think I'm getting a whiff of chauvinism here. The kind that says, "If you weren't born within sight of Tara, didn't come out of the womb speaking Gaelic, and don't have shamrocks growing out of you navel, then you'll never be able to learn how to play Irish session music.

I just spent some time listening to Irish session music on YouTube (and I have heard a lot of it before), and I didn't hear anything—INCLUDING the "diddly bits"—that could NOT be learned from written music and played as well as anybody else.

Folk police come in many shapes and sizes, and from various ethnic groups.

Ta ta, folks! Got better things to do than to continue running around this particular bush.

Don Firth

The originator of the thread feels this topic has run it's course and is dismayed at the disrespect shown elder statesmen in the field of folk music. Those of you who don't have anything better to do - take up another hobby - don't follow around people you disagree with just to pick fights and ruin other discussion. It reflects poorly on you and one day may come back to bite you in the ass. --mudelf

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 06:42 PM

.... by the way, it's disingenuous to use part of a quote to change its meaning.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 06:35 PM

"All the "style" or "interpretation" or knowledge of regional subtleties in the world is not going to do you much good if you don't know what NOTES to play."

"I just don't see why one would play a set of notes in the first place without having an idea what they were supposed to sound like within the tradition that they come from."

These two quotes do indeed present a dichotomy. However, the conundrum is neatly solved if the the knowledge of what notes to play comes simultaneously with the listening of the style. i.e. learning the tunes by ear.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:59 PM

". . . devoid of the subtleties of rhythm, articulation and phrasing."

Since when?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Undecided
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:59 PM

The vision beforehand of an expanse of yellow with purple stripes and the enjoyment of sitting looking at it when done may be more important than the bricks and mortar.

(but IMO its rubbish analogy)

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:43 PM

Did you really have to go this way, Michael Gill?

"Maybe this is why your English music is, compared with Irish music, largely devoid of the subtleties of rhythm, articulation and phrasing."

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:39 PM

So you know all about a particular style of music—how tunes should be played. But you don't know any tunes.

Not much different from knowing what color you want to paint a wall. But—if it's going to amount to anything, you have to have a wall to paint.

Sounds kind of basic to me.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Undecided
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:15 PM

Well, a lot of the work on playing the tune as one wants to may come after having a got a set of notes, and what one wants to do may evolve during that. I just don't see why one would play a set of notes in the first place without having an idea what they were supposed to sound like within the tradition that they come from.

But then I'm coming at it from a "can read music but it helps if I know the tune" angle. (I'll leave attribution of the quote to others in case I have it wrong)

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:01 PM

How else?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Undecided
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 04:25 PM

Don, are you saying that the "style" or "interpretation" or knowledge of regional subtleties can come *after* one knows which notes to play ?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 04:06 PM

Michael, I agree with what you posted (the one you are referring to). As a matter of fact, a careful reading of what I've been saying all along (rather that a quick, knee-jerk reaction) should make it abundantly clear that I am saying that one must LISTEN to the kind of music one is, for the first time, attempting to learn from written music. Especially when learning from written music. Then, keep revising as one goes along and learns more about it.

What I object to is when some of the people here are saying that one should not attempt to learn a particular style of music, be it Irish reels or Indian ragas, from written music AT ALL.

One needs sources of information IN ADDITION to the written music. Any student of music in a formal school of music or conservatory knows this right from the start—if he or she has stayed awake in class.

But beginning to learn a particular style of music from notation is a start. All the "style" or "interpretation" or knowledge of regional subtleties in the world is not going to do you much good if you don't know what NOTES to play.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 02:23 PM

Don, would you care to reply to my posting beginning:
"Don, specifically, my advice to people new to any particular kind of music who already have knowledge of another and can read music is that they should do their best to familiarise themselves with this new music before learning anything of it from notation."

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 01:58 PM

Yup! John P. and Stringsinger know where their towels are.*

Right on!

Don Firth

*If bewildered by this reference, see "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 01:57 PM

'The Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann at its branch in Belfast Square, Dublin, has an array of valuable books to teach someone to play fiddle, whistle, banjo etc.

It is true, however, that to play the music well, you have to be exposed to a good seisiun or master teachers. The notes will not hurt you.

The attitude that you can't learn from music notation is a kind of ignorant snobbery. '

I imagine you mean Belgrave Square in Monkstown, Comhaltas headquarters.

I believe a session will help you become at best a good session player, to really get the nuances (that will be lost in session), the company of good musicians is essential.

An experienced musician, experienced in the genre we're talking about, can learn tunes succesfully from notation. I think that's been pretty much established somewhere during the last 250 or so posts. A musician experienced and educated in any other genre will not do so successfully and will not learn the finer detail of the music from notes. That too has been established. Remind yourself of that before throwing the old 'ignorant snobbery' remarks about.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 12:26 PM

Setting aside the arguments pro and con about learning tunes from say books like O'Neils if you play Irish, once you have a grasp of the style of music by listening to it, you can add to your repertoire from the notes and filter it through your knowledge of the music.

Contemporary jazz musicians work this way, many having played in jazz big bands that require reading and a knowledge of swing phrasing, often determined by the section leader.

It is reasonable that a trained musician who knows how to read music, has a knowledge of theory, chord progressions and voicings, key and time signatures, can learn to play by ear.

Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie learned their craft by going through method books in music for alto and trumpet, requiring them to read music, and I defy anyone to say that either musician was lacking in being able to play successfully by ear, and that is an understatement.

Back to Irish. Many of those musicians are conversant with music notation and use it to broaden their repertoire.

The Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann at its branch in Belfast Square, Dublin, has an array of valuable books to teach someone to play fiddle, whistle, banjo etc.

It is true, however, that to play the music well, you have to be exposed to a good seisiun or master teachers. The notes will not hurt you.

The attitude that you can't learn from music notation is a kind of ignorant snobbery.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 11:29 AM

Each to their own, Michael. I actually thoroughly enjoyed the workshops we had with Kevin Burke and Tommy Peoples.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 11:02 AM

TheSnail, the bond you feel with a musician writiing down his tunes in the 1790s is a very thin bond indeed. One devoid of the subtleties of rhythm, articulation and phrasing. Maybe this is why your English music is, compared with Irish music, largely devoid of the subtleties of rhythm, articulation and phrasing.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 10:46 AM

That's all well and good John, if you could break apart the "learning" and the "playing" process. Which of course you can't.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: John P
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 10:24 AM

I do a lot of training of new employees at work. One thing that has become obvious is that everyone has different learning styles. So much so that my training now includes an attempt to find out the learning style of the new person so I can adapt my training as much as possible to their style of learning. Another thing I have learned is that, no matter the learning or teaching style, some people get it quickly and some people don't. Of those that don't, some never will and some will, with time, become adequate or even quite good. Learning music isn't any different than learning anything else.

I find it insulting when a workshop teacher insists that their music can't be learned if you start with the written notes. I find this to be a lazy, incompetent, and ego-centric teaching style. Also insulting to my experience, to my self-knowledge, and to my ability to play music well. This type of teaching is not about playing the music. It's about enforcing a learning style on a portion of the learning process. This portion of the process has absolutely nothing at all to do with whether or not the student ends up being able to play well.

I am equally insulted by people who insist that traditional tunes can be notated accurately. I've never met anyone who knows anything at all about traditional music who thinks it can be, although I've debated the issue with a few folk here on Mudcat. The notes on the paper are a road map. The playing of music is the real thing. Learning tunes by ear or by rote is a road map. The playing of music is the real thing.

Like any other type of learning, everyone learns music in different ways. Some will get it and some won't. If the only proper way to learn traditional tunes is by ear, why are there so many really bad players out there who don't read music? If learning from a score is adequate, why are there so many gifted classical players out there playing Irish tunes that don't sound like Irish tunes? To be clear, no one on this thread has said that the written score will give anyone a clear idea of what traditional music sounds like.

The real answer is that there are good musicians and there are bad musicians. The bad musicians will never sound good doing anything. Of the good musicians, some will get it right away about how traditional tunes differ from what you see on the page. Of those who don't, some never will, and some will eventually become adequate or even quite good. Saying that everyone is the same in this regard, or that there is only one way to achieve the desired results, is displaying ignorance of how people learn.

The playing of the music is the real thing.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 10:11 AM

GUEST,michael gill
Of course it's obvious that learning from books has to be done along with listening to the music and playing with others

Not to Steve apparently.

But if you are listening to the music and playing with others, you do not "need" the books.

You may not need them, Michael, but as I said in my previous post, not everyone finds it so easy. If you are starting from scratch, it helps to have something to go on in order to join in with other players. I don't know what I can do to alleviate your sadness.

It may be a cultural thing. Your preference is for Irish music. The sort of traditional English dance music that I play has a long history of personal tune books. A lot of the tunes played around here (Lewes, East Sussex) come from local hand written manuscripts dating back to the end of the 18C. Many of them were published thirty years ago as The Sussex Tune Book edited by by Anne Loughran and Vic Gammon, music drawn by Martin Carthy (on the train and it sometimes shows). I remember the thrill when I first held the Aylemore MS in my hands and felt the bond with a musician writiing down his tunes in the 1790s as I went through it recognising tune after tune that I was regularly playing in sessions. I can't hear Aylemore play them because he has been dead some 200 years. I just have to hope he wouldn't mind our interpretation of them. There are several other MSS in The Sussex Tune Book including one from the mid 19C by Michael Turner, "bootmaker, parish clerk and fiddler". Another is from the Welch family of Bosham who played for the local dances and the church. Thomas Hardy's family had their own MS spanning several generations. John Clare, the "Peasant Poet", kept a MS. It is said that he used to go into music shops and copy tunes out of the books. Nobody cared to stop him. New manuscripts are turning up all the time. See the Village Music Project. That's not to say that there aren' a great many very good musicians who manage perfectly well without written music but use of the dots has over 200 years of precedent so I don't feel too guilty about it.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 10:08 AM

'And yes of course the whole point of learning the tunes is to get out there and play with others (barring some perverse musical onanism).
re crap sessions, it takes time to sort the wheat from the chaff, the good session may be miles away or your mates don't like the pub....: and if you're a reasonable player isn't there some sort of moral obligation to support the inexperienced?'


There's a whole lot there I am a bit uneasy with. I know a lot of players who love playing music for the sake of it, and I would include myself in their number, whose prime objective is not to 'get out there and play with others'. Playing with others can be great and at times it can be exasperating. But it's not the be all end all of playing music.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 10:06 AM

Yes, the dots can be an accurate representation of what they represent. (kind of puts them in their place when you say it like that eh?)

And I think it's important to differentiate between two types of the inexperienced. On the one hand, someone who has never played any music before and cannot read music. And on the other, someone who has played a different genre of music and can already read music.

With the former, I think the dots can help in aiding the memory of a tune that is being learned aurally. But if the source is the dots, they can hinder the aural memory of a tune.

With the latter, what the dots represent to them is not what they represent to someone more experienced in the tradition. The example I gave above is very important. Common time. 4/4, to a classically trained musician means something very very different to someone who is used to playing reels. A classically trained musician who is inexperienced with reels attempting to play them off the page will play them wrong. All wrong. Much better to force them to listen in order to learn a tune.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: ripov
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 09:47 AM

if the dots represented all those things they would have to followed more slavishly, leaving less room for individual musicianship. But they can still be accurate regarding what they DO represent.

Wouldn't it be better to guide the inexperienced in learning to interpret what they read in the way of the appropriate tradition?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 09:33 AM

The dots can't be an accurate representation of one particular "performance" either, seeings as there's much much more to the music it terms of the subtleties of rhythm, articulation and phrasing that the dots don't even attempt to represent.

And I find it a moral obligation to steer the inexperienced away from such inaccurate representations of tunes

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: ripov
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 09:19 AM

what "right" dots do you want Michael - the original pdf's that O'Carolan sent to the printers? As Undecided says, its the right dots if they remind you of the tune you want to remember. They aren't (and as said before CAN'T BE) be an accurate representation of a tune that continually varies from time to time and place to place, simply an approximation. But they are very probably an accurate representation of one particular "performance", or how one particular musician remembers the tune.
And yes of course the whole point of learning the tunes is to get out there and play with others (barring some perverse musical onanism).
re crap sessions, it takes time to sort the wheat from the chaff, the good session may be miles away or your mates don't like the pub....: and if you're a reasonable player isn't there some sort of moral obligation to support the inexperienced?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 08:49 AM

I have heard that there is an orchestral piece that only exists because Mozart, at the age of about 13, heard it at a concert then went home and wrote it down from memory.

That's a slightly garbled version of an urban legend about Allegri's Miserere. Several versions of it exist, some predating Mozart by a long time, but it was not published at the time since performances were reserved for the Sistine Chapel.

It's an unfortunate example since its evolution was more like that of an Irish traditional dance tune than just about anything else in art music. Generations of choirmasters added to Allegri's original and occasionally wrote down what they'd done to it. By the time Mozart heard it, it had mutated almost beyond recognition.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 08:33 AM

"It is not one or the other"

Of course it's obvious that learning from books has to be done along with listening to the music and playing with others. i.e. one and the other. However, you have to remember that "the other" on its own is more than adequate.

If you have the books, you also "need" to be listening to the music and playing with others.

But if you are listening to the music and playing with others, you do not "need" the books.

I think it's a sad thing to say that if you didn't have the books you'd never have got started.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 07:59 AM

Steve Shaw

If you encourage beginners to learn tunes from a book, of course you're encouraging them to fast-track. Why else would you do it?

In some cases, to make it possible at all. Learning by ear is not a universal skill and people have it to different degrees. I have heard that there is an orchestral piece that only exists because Mozart, at the age of about 13, heard it at a concert then went home and wrote it down from memory. Can you do that? You are fortunate to have some skill along that spectrum. Don't begrudge access to the music to those that don't.

The only "advantage" (utterly misguided to see it that way, of course) to learning tunes from books over listening to people playing is that you can learn a lot of tunes more quickly.

Steve, I have said repeatedly said, and so have others, that learning from books has to be done along with listening to the music and playing with others. It is not one or the other.

It panders to that enthusiasm that then gets degraded into the impatience to get in there and get playing and get the free pints. "Learn" used there advisedly, of course.

Heaven forfend that anyone should show any enthusiasm for playing music. I don't know about you, Steve, but I play for the love of the music and the joy of playing music with other people not the free pints.

As for my "failure", well you wonder why I treat you with the disdain you so richly deserve when you say stupid bloody things like that.

Previously: Learning from books taught me entirely the wrong message, that there is a correct version and that you should pontificate about it should you come up against someone not playing it Mally's way. And it taught me precisely zilch about active listening as I learned, the need for flexibility, the subtleties of rhythm and how to vary and ornament tunes.

Sounds like failure to me. I wear your disdain with pride.

As for telling me I need to listen and play with other people, well why don't you go and tell your granny how to suck eggs too.

I said no such thing. As above, I said that, if you are learning from the dots, you need to listen and play with other people as well. Is the message getting through yet? It is very evident from your account of your own attempts to learn from tune books and your use of lines like "learning tunes from books over listening to people playing" that you did try and learn that way in isolation. You had unrealistic expectations of what the written note could do for you. I am glad you have found a way that suits you but presumably you couldn't learn by ear to start with otherwise you wouldn't have bothered with the tune books. Could it be that reading from the dots was part of the path to your present skills? I certainly know that my ear learning has improved over the years but without the dots, I would never have got started.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Undecided
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 07:45 AM

"And how do you know you've got the "right" dots? If you know the dots are right, then you don't need them."

That was what I was getting at in my first post about "write only memory" (which was partially empathizing with someone talking about a disconnect between brain and vocal chords). You know if the dots fit the memory of last nights session the same way that you know if a Beatles tribute band gets the opening chord of "A hard days night" even slightly different.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 07:25 AM

"Several versions played at once, guitars with different ideas of the harmony"

I'd agree it's hard picking up tunes at crap sessions.

And how do you know you've got the "right" dots? If you know the dots are right, then you don't need them.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: ripov
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 07:03 AM

Undecided -
exactly so. The notes need to be read and played as patterns and sequences, just as the words do. And playing each note separately, one at a time, produces nonsense in any tradition, as surely as saying one word at a time.

so -
Steve, maybe it's people who have problems reading you're on about?

Jack thanks for the Ian Hardie link, I've tried a couple (only in my classical accent though) - great tunes!

Michael, I don't think it's a matter of notes in the wrong order though. The order, or at least pattern, of notes, is generally fixed by the type of dance. if the player hasn't sussed that out well....(Slow airs may be a bit trickier). Thats why we all stop at the same time even if we're playing the wrong notes (and of course because everyone else has stopped!).
But it is hard to pick a tune up at a session, even without the obligatory football on the pub's tv. Several versions played at once, guitars with different ideas of the harmony; and when I join in the fingers don't always do as they're told! And there's another problem. Tunes are generally written by people who play, and the "finger patterns" are not always comfortable on every instrument.
So I find the dots very handy, if I can find the right ones, just as a guide to how the tune goes.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Undecided
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 06:09 AM

If one postulates that tunes are made up of phrases composed of rhythmic and harmonic chunks or sequences (or some similar larger scale units) then that is like asking how someone could be a great orator if they had trouble with their spelling.

Looking at tunes that way also makes it easier to understand how variations 'work' in a way that a "notes in the right order" view does not.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:53 AM

The thing about Irish diddley music is that there's often a heck of a lot going on, some easier to learn than others. Most people find the subtleties of rhythm, articulation and phrasing the hard bits. And the order of the notes in the tune the easy bit.

The question is though, if you have difficulty getting the simple order of notes by just listening, how the heck are you gonna be able to get the rest of it?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Undecided
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:44 AM

Not to say that significant individual notes here and there are not handy to hang bigger chunks of tune from.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Undecided
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:40 AM

I'm not sure what the etiquette is round here but since it was in response to a post by me can I say thanks to Michael Gill for giving a useful answer (in his post about singing whilst riding his bike) to the question in the Original Post. I don't agree about the 'trial and error' part but we have moved on now.

I am having trouble reconciling the (separate ?) analogies about Frenchmen and about Shakespeare with the idea of "getting the notes" from the sheet music. When an English speaker reads Shakespeare they are not thinking about the letters making up the words and they are thinking more about what is being said and the rhythm of the words than about the individual words.

But if a English speaking Frenchman wants to read Shakespeare out loud (in his French accent) why can't he use the text to help him learn it, maybe in addition to recordings of native English speakers to help him through parts where his French accent spoils the effect. (if it wasn't a Frenchman but someone from the eastern USA they may even end up with something closer to what Shakespeare would have had in mind).

The difference may be that with an instrument we do have to generate the individual notes (the "letters" that make up the words). But when learning a song or a tune on an instrument phrase by phrase are we really taking it in by "getting the notes" or are we hearing words and meanings and needing to know our vocal chords or instrument well enough to reproduce them without thinking about the notes/letters ?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 05:33 AM

Don, would you care to reply to my posting beginning:
"Don, specifically, my advice to people new to any particular kind of music who already have knowledge of another and can read music is that they should do their best to familiarise themselves with this new music before learning anything of it from notation."

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 09:17 PM

Don, of course you're right. Music theory taught me that I couldn't do anything I wanted to on the guitar. Some stuff was garbage. However, I tried it anyway. The theory was righter than me. But I don't think that's what Steve is saying.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 09:06 PM

Steve, that was a direct cut and paste from your post. That IS what you said.

Michael, I have said all along that one needs to LISTEN to a style of music that is new to one. I have never denied this. What I OBJECT to is when someone counsels a beginning musician that they shouldn't learn to read music. One CAN learn Irish reels from various books and collections, but once the person has learned the notes, he THEN needs to listen to musicians experienced in that kind of music to learn how those notes should be played.

But to tell someone that they shouldn't learn to read music, or at least get a start by learning something from a book is, as I see it, a form of sabotage!

And early on, I did have a couple of folk-types get on my case because I wanted to learn something about music in general, music theory and such. They claimed it would "spoil any attempt to learn how folk music should be done" and limit me to a bunch of arbitrary rules.

Fortunately, I knew better and ignored them—following the advice or another fairly experienced folk musician of my acquaintance who told me that the reason these guys were telling me this was essentially because they didn't want any competition for available gigs.

Turned out he was right.

By the way, rather than limiting me, learning music theory showed me what is possible. It freed me!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 08:57 PM

I would need to listen to them, Jack. Slow airs are damn tough. I've heard some really great guys playing them excruciatingly badly. The ones derived from sean-nos songs really need, I think, at least some feeling of the song words, even if they're translated. I can honestly say that I don't think I've ever played one properly. I suppose my instrument doesn't help. If it rains one day I'll take a look at those. They do look nice.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 08:42 PM

Thank you, Steve. I wouldn't have written that were it not for your posts. They spoke a language I could understand.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 07:05 PM

Welcome aboard, Seer. What you do with it is what counts is a sentiment I can agree with. I think what the argument revolves around is how best to ensure that enthusiastic would-be players of this music are best prepared to know how to make the best of it. That's what we're squabbling about!

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 06:58 PM

Hell of a good post there, Guest999. Just what I feel about music meself. It's good to be reminded of its central part in any life well lived.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 06:43 PM

Steve, you keep talking about "learning tunes from books over listening to people playing. . . ."

I would thank the poster of this to not pretend I've said something I haven't. You put words in speech marks, you are saying I said those exact words. Even if I did, which I don't recall doing, you have robbed them of all context. Knock it off, Don.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 06:13 PM

I know a dynamite fiddle player who both reads and plays by ear. I don't know which came first with Chris, but I do know he loves Irish music--reels, songs, melodic pieces (I don't know all the names for the various styles of the music). His playing can get an audience mesmerized; his work is captivating.

Anyway, I was doing an album (33 1/3) in 1980 and for one of the songs needed to have a violin player. That's when I didn't meet him for the first time. He ended up overdubbing two violin parts. Years later, in 2008 I met him at a music festival. So, in 2011 when I was doing a CD I asked if he'd do a few cuts. He did, and I was a happy camper when he did.

I must mention that the music I play is some sort of bastard cross between what songwriters do and folkish music of the 1960s and 1970s with a bit of rock tossed in).

Chris matched the violin to the songs he was on, and he sounded exactly as I'd hoped he would. He can also play well with Celtic music, square dance players, those quartets made up of fiddles, viola-type things, jug band stuff and every-day old rock and roll. He likes some bluegrass, country--in fact I don't recall him mentioning any musics he didn't like.

I don't know quite where I wanted to go with this except maybe to say that people who really love music--your mileage will vary greatly according to your likes and experience/knowledge/inclination, as it should--see that there is a commonality all good musicians share: they love, care for and think about music in one form or other at least more times a minute than people do about sex. Rivers, winds, sky-colours: hell, even the rocks have sounds and songs of their own.

In terms of music itself, what's to say? I hear many good songs, and by that I mean melodies that work well with their lyrics. I hear many poor ones too. But every now and then, along comes Jones. I have written about three beautiful songs in my life, fifty or so better than yer average work-a-day, and seven hundred or so that I threw away because they sucked. I'm working on number four now, but then I'm always working on number four and will be until I nail it. Then I'll work on number five.

I admire the skill of some musicians who can lift music to the heavens, make it take you with it. We wouldn't have those wonderful composers and writers unless we also had the most of us who try hard but miss it by t h a t m u c h.

I will listen to unaccompanied music if ya hold a gun to my head. Yet, there are some singers/groups who blow my mind. I could say the same about Gregorian chants, doo wop, chorus, opera, choir or speech, and I shall: along came Jones.

I understand why so many people who do love music in its variant guises argue so fervently. It's important. And at the end of the day it is what defines such a big part of ourselves. Boil it all down, and that's a good thing.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Seer
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 05:46 PM

So how about this then?

This my take on things based upon my current understanding


by rote - playing along with something (perhaps in a group setting)

by ear - being able to listen to something, and play it back unaccompanied

transcription - to listen to something and write it down (perhaps using the instrument to play it back by ear first?)


as for learning from dots, or tab. my view is, unless emulating a specific tune (to either play by rote or replay exactly) that is what on paper it represents a snapshot, which i think COULD represent the exact same an aural snapshot when you "learn it by ear".

its what you then do with it that counts.

once you have the song in your mind, if you play exactly as you heard it that first time you're 'just' replaying it. but if you improvise within it, ditch the bits you dont like, boost the bits you do (or indeed bend it to your style, or what you can play better) then thats the folk process - thats you taking ownership.

(btw this is my first ever post on here and controversy aside, nice to see another west country man on here steve shaw :) )

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 05:27 PM

Don, would you care to reply to my posting beginning:
"Don, specifically, my advice to people new to any particular kind of music who already have knowledge of another and can read music is that they should do their best to familiarise themselves with this new music before learning anything of it from notation."

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 05:03 PM

[Steve Shaw]
Anyone who even thinks they can notate a slow air is nothing less than a scoundrel.

How about this?

Ian Hardie slow airs

They're his own tunes. He died a few days ago; he didn't live to record them all.

Steve, I think you could do them justice yourself, using that notation. You would need to listen to a bit of Ian Hardie to get the idea, but that's not much of an imposition.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: selby
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 04:23 PM

I would be interested to hear how others, developed their ear playing and the answer is?
Keith

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 04:00 PM

Steve, you keep talking about "learning tunes from books over listening to people playing. . . ."

I have NEVER said that one should just learn tunes (songs, whatever) from books and NOT listen to people playing (and/or singing). And, yes, if one learns a tune from the notes in a book, at least you then have it "under your fingers" and it THEN becomes a matter of refining it by listening to others.

And what is wrong with "fast-tracking" if you get it right?

Oh, yes! Some newby might get the free pints some night! We can't have that, now can we!?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 02:46 PM

Me: Telling beginners who happen to be able to read music that they can fast-track themselves into playing this music well is doing them more than a disservice.

Snail: Nobody on this thread has said anything of the sort. From your own account of your failure to learn from notation, it sounds as if that was what you hoped. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You have to listen. You have to play with other people. Written notation can be an invaluable aid to that process.

If you encourage beginners to learn tunes from a book, of course you're encouraging them to fast-track. Why else would you do it? The only "advantage" (utterly misguided to see it that way, of course) to learning tunes from books over listening to people playing is that you can learn a lot of tunes more quickly. It panders to that enthusiasm that then gets degraded into the impatience to get in there and get playing and get the free pints. "Learn" used there advisedly, of course.

As for my "failure", well you wonder why I treat you with the disdain you so richly deserve when you say stupid bloody things like that. As for telling me I need to listen and play with other people, well why don't you go and tell your granny how to suck eggs too.