trad folk bands just cover bands?

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 03:53 PM

Some of the more well worn songs certainly seem like cover versions. Just now listening to Josienne Clarke's take on Hares On The Mountain - I can't hear that song without thinking of the dozens of other versions I've heard previously. She does it well, but it's almost like Hallelujah - It's been done to a nats hair of death. The life of the beautiful wee song has been all squeezed out. Not specifically or particularly by Josienne Clarke, of course.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 03:45 PM

...but to return to the original thread...

I think whether folk music is "just cover versions" is an interesting question, cos I have a love/hate relationship to the conservative nature of folk music.

To the extent that I almost feel a lot of supremely talented folk musicians actively shut down the "songwriter" part of themselves in a way that their forbears, who originally wrote the songs that make up their folksinger repertoire, wouldn't recognise.

Increasingly, I think that at heart folk is ultimately, yes, "just cover versions" - in that the process I go through learning a folk song is no different from the process I go through learning a cover of a singer-songwriter. That's not to say writing a song is any more superior to learning someone else's. I'd leave out the "just" in "just cover versions". But I do think songwriting is creative; singing folk songs is interpretative. In fact I'd say that's unarguable, unless you want to quibble about dictionary definitions...

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 03:29 PM

quite a sidetrack here. I don't think talking about any one artist epitomizing "the future of folk" is particularly productive, seeing as all you're really saying is that X is really good.

Whether or not Josienne Clarke is stunningly good, I don't think anyone could claim her music is really doing anything one would associate with the word "future": what she does, for good or bad, really isn't different from what Sandy Denny did.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 03:22 PM

Yes, she can be one of the all sorts of different bands and artists doing all sorts of different things, for sure.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,FOLK YARN
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 03:17 PM

What about Josienne Clarke she is stunningly good?

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 02:55 PM

"
"I like Sproatly Smith a lot maybe they are the future of folk music? "

They could well be!

Sproatly Smith

But then again.... hopefully not.



Who is then? "

I considered a while how to answer this, but I think it'd just end up with lists of Who One Likes At The Moment. There are loads of people doing good things - Jon Boden's Folk Song A Day, etc. But no one I could really say I'd point at as possibly being the future of folk music. I like Alasdair Roberts, Elle Osborne, from this forum - Dick Miles, Rapunzel and Sedayne, all sorts, but no one I could name as one Great White (or otherwise) Hope.

The reason I don't like SS though, is they, like so many bands, seem to be looking to the 70's Folk Rock for their inspiration. And I dislike 70's Folk Rock. If that's the future of folk music then, well, I'd be disappointed.

Perhaps the future of folk music is all sorts of different bands and artists doing all sorts of different things. That sounds more realistic and optimistic. That way the 70's Folk Rockers can carry on playing in their blind alleys without upsetting me particularly.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,Dave Illingworth
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 02:27 PM

Amen to that

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 02:20 PM

Dave Illingworth, musket..., and stallion.   I totally resonate with your wisdom. I think that the economic (not creative) pressure to write so-called 'original' songs is filling up the song landfills of the world......all these songs that nobody wants to sing, instead of focusing on creating a rendition (or even simply exposing) some of the great music that is already out there....whether it be 'traditional' or not.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 01:46 PM

Cecil Sharp worked on the assumption that the rural population he collected from were too base and lowly to innovate,adjust or amend - therefore the dances, tunes and then songs he collected must per se be ancient holdovers from olden times, preserved in their true form, passed down from generation to generation.

In other words, the Headington Morris side Sharp saw on Boxing Day 1899, and the gardener John England singing 'The Seeds Of Love', were, in modern parlance, hereditary cover bands to Sharp's way of thinking ...

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,Dave Illingworth
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 01:40 PM

This is deviating from the thread but, yes, Fred McCormick, I was assistant editor of Jazz Journal 1965 to 1969.   Although they were the four best working years of my life, in that time I did write a load of pretentious nonsense - and I still probably talk and write a lot of bull...... I still love music (all kinds) and love Mudcat, and still sing regularly at the age of 72 (but virtually all "covers"
- but in my own personal style.) Thanks for remembering my name, even if for the wrong reasons.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,Folk Yarn
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 12:18 PM

Who is then?

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 08:10 AM

"I like Sproatly Smith a lot maybe they are the future of folk music? "

They could well be!

Sproatly Smith

But then again.... hopefully not.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 07:56 AM

Well, of course, classical music - a lot of the time -is all about "cover" versions - if you wish to see it that way.
For example, it is considered bad form -in the minds of many classical music lovers - for a performer to play Bach's music ( for various pre-piano keyboards) on the piano.
The reasoning is that Bach would have written quite differently for the piano than say, for example, the harpsichord ( i.e. because of the two instruments very different sound producing mechanisms).

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 07:33 AM

Dave Illingworth. Is that the same David Illingworth who used to review blues records for Jazz Journal back in the 1960s?

I think I've remembered the name of the magazine correctly. It was edited by Sinclair Traill and had regular contributions from Steve Voce at any rate.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,FOLK YARN
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 07:13 AM

I like Sproatly Smith a lot maybe they are the future of folk music?

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 06:14 AM

All music is a series of permutations of this theme.

There's more music that ISN'T I'm sure, but I sort of agree in principle; which is to say that the myriad different IDIOMS of music account for a multiplicity Living Traditions, all of which derive from a common source, somewhere, way back 50,000 years at least. It all comes to down to Individual Genius in the end.

Even 'covering' a Trad song no one is ever going to do it without making it their own - even if that isn't their conscious intention. A Traditional Song is a Living Entity - fossil fuel if you like - you sing it to give life to yourself, and that life empowers further growth & creativity, which accounts for the various developments in Revival Folk these past 110 years - from Cecil Sharp to The Spinners to Sproatly Smith.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 05:54 AM

If you think about it logically, then all music is cover.

There are four main cadences which then can be played in any key. All music is a series of permutations of this theme.

Regarding lyrics. All songs stem from the idea of putting words to music.

Yeah, it's all cover. I bet the metaphor I am shoving into the song I am presently working on has been used many times. I reckon I may even be inadvertently plagiarising as although I reckon it's mine, I probably heard if elsewhere over the years.

(I once googled a line I came up with and found it was from a '70s disco song. I was positively strutting all day with a smirk on my face. )

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 05:10 AM

middle age man from the shires living in the past?

That's as good a definition of Folkie as I've heard in a while. A lot of us were born middle-aged; the shires are largely mythical, as is the past in wich we live - and not all of us are men. It's a yearning thing; a craving for the Arcadian Idyll as evidenced by the songs, the graphics, the phoney accents and the collective earnestness of our enthusiasms which, at times, can seem very real indeed.

As Ian Curtis sang: The past is now part of my future. The present is well out of hand. (From HERE for those who don't know.)

That, to me at least, is the very essence of what Folk is.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: redhorse
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 05:02 AM

"I was once at a pub in St Ives where the guy running the open mic night kept banging on about "no one singing covers original material only""

I doubt this was artistic judgment. More likely he was concerned about performing rights? No copyright infringement on self-penned material.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 04:51 AM

So by the sound of it most of you are middle age man from the shires living in the past?

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: stallion
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 03:32 AM

I was once at a pub in St Ives where the guy running the open mic night kept banging on about "no one singing covers original material only", in fairness he was not unpleasant but most, if not all, of the rest was dross and grated so much I had to leave. The "snigger snogwriter" thing surely came about when the companies could own the performers soul as well as the rights to whatever they wrote and recorded. I fancy people who made their living from just writing songs were more savvy about signing their lives away and were sidelined by big business and performers were maybe discouraged from using songwriters by stigmatising performers who did, a bit like the way socialism has been treated over the years, as a model for living it is quite equitable and morally more robust than the rabid capitalist system we have rammed down our throats but big business and rich people managed to make it into "THE" bogey man..... Now that is what I call magic!

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 03:32 AM

Of course, there are still "covers" bands (in the 1950s sense) - found in pubs and at weddings all over the country. But these are really only a few steps up from karaoke,

These guys are the real Traditional Musicians, fulfilling an essential need in their community to do exactly what people expect of them with respect of their Cultural Canon - & to do it well, especially as that's what they're being paid to do. As such, they're part of an unbroken tradition of versatile & dynamic musical professionals going back a thousand years at least. They are the noble mistrels of our day - and certainly not to be scoffed at.

Ever heard of Bandeoke? This is where punters get to sing their favourite songs with a live band.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 02:49 AM

I agree with Richard (for once!).

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,Dave Illingworth
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 11:35 PM

PS   Of course, there are still "covers" bands (in the 1950s sense) - found in pubs and at weddings all over the country. But these are really only a few steps up from karaoke, in my opinion. Any band worth its salt should be putting their own stamp on material that is not their own. Not everybody is blessed with songwriting talents.
Far better do a good personal version of another's song than a competent version of one's own inferior material   - we get far too much of the latter in all styles of music.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,Dave Illingworth
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 11:16 PM

I agree with Leadfingers.                                  Unfortunately the word "cover" in music has changed since its first use in the 1950s. Then a "cover record" was a straight copy of another popular record, usually (but not always) an inferior white artist recording a song by a superior black artist and robbing the latter of possible record sales. Thus the word had a derogatory inference. Nowadays the term is used about any artist singing a song originally recorded by someone else. And in a world of singer-songwriters, it is a put-down in a different way, inferring that the singer or band cannot be bothered to write original material.
This is nonsense   - as Richard Bridge explains. Apart from folk performers, the world of jazz singers is full of people who don't write songs. Billie Holiday only wrote a handful, but mainly sang wonderful personal versions of other people's songs. In rock'n'roll and country music the great Jerry Lee Lewis took songs from all over the place and stamped them with his own personality. And back to folk, the great Ramblin' Jack Elliott also only wrote a handful of songs, but my God, could he interpret other people's material.
And the list goes on........
I still like to use the word only in its 1950s sense. The folk tradition, by its very nature, encourages tha psssing on of material in a personal way - and long may it do so.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 10:08 PM

A current Folk Band singing/playing Traditional material will be doing their own arrangement of traditional material ( I Hope) so will not be a 'Covers Band' unless they are using other band's arrangements - ,Fairport , Steel Eye , Oysters et al .

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 09:08 PM

Yes. So? At least the material's guaranteed to be good.

Whole Lotta Cecil - great band. The Bootleg Coppers . . . pack 'em in.

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 08:29 PM

IMHO a "covers" band seeks to emulate the sound of a known recorded performance. Since in most cases both folk singers and folksong singers seek to make a song "their own" and therefore vary the arrangement in search of a different "sound" they are not doing "covers".

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: GUEST,Geordie-Peorgie (sans cookie)
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 08:06 PM

I s'pose if they're going to be 'truly' traditional then they HAVE to be a 'covers' band.

I know people who write contemporary songs which are very much 'traditional' sounding and would pass muster as a 'trad/arr' but for the fact that they have brought it to life.

Fairport and Steeleye did a great job (IMHO) with stuff like 'Walk Awhile' (and loads more that won't come to mind at 1am) etc as well as being 'covers' bands.

Much better (once again, IMHO) than the current trend for 'Britpop With Banjo'!

Subject: RE: trad folk bands just cover bands?
From: Elmore
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 07:54 PM

Huh?