Unusual (?) chord label

Subject: Unusual (?) chord label
From: NightWing
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 04:48 PM

I'm trying to digitize the songs from a book I came across (The World's Most Beloved Humorous and Nostaligic Songs) to post them on the web. I'm having trouble identifying a chord label in a few of the songs: (for example)

A7-5

However, the notation software I have (GenieSoft Score Writer for Windows, v.2), while it has a lot of chords, does not include this one. From other places, it appears to mean either

A7(no 5)

or

A7 flat 5 / A7 dim 5
(These are the same chord aren't they?)

Opinions? What does this label mean?

BB,
NightWing

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: Nick
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 05:00 PM

I'd take it as A7 with the 5th flattened

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 05:04 PM

A7dim5

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 05:09 PM

Sorry, NW. Meant to say that the - sign is often used to mean diminished and the plus sign which I can never find on the computer keyboard stands for augmented. I think in this case that flat 5 and diminished 5 mean the same thing.

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 05:14 PM

Three names for it(the -, the dim or the flat sign) but all the same chord
AC#EflatG
( doubtless there is a way to make a flat sign but I dont know what it is). Surprisingly, perhaps, A7flat5 is the same chord as Eflat7flat5, but with the notes in a different order.

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: Newport Boy
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 05:20 PM

Greg - lowercase b works quite well for the flat sign.

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: NightWing
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 05:25 PM

GREAT!!!!!

Thanks for the help!

In ScoreWriter, the only way to use a hyphen (automatically) in chord names is for MINOR chords?!?!?!?!?!? Superscripted. I don't use it for anything. It uses a superscripted o character (degree symbol) for diminished. I just have it set to use "dim", "aug", and "min".

FYI, Greg, mostly people just use the lower-case b for flat. It's not the RIGHT character, but everyone will know what you mean.

A7b5

BB,
NightWing

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 06:18 PM

Could it mean #5 not -5? Or even indicate doubling the 5th eg 077650? I play that quite a lot.

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 06:25 PM

Surely A7(no 5) is far more common?

That's what you get when you push the A7 button on a stradella-bass accordion.

How often would you get A7dim5 in book of familiar songs?

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 06:41 PM

I always use lower case for minor chords, upper case for major, if I'm indicating chords on a song. Seems intuitive to me.

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 07:34 PM

Jack - not in popular songs. A7b5 is not at all uncommon, but I've never seen A7(no 5) called for (or certainly not before fairly recent times - late 20C).

Mick

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 07:38 PM

An example. Progressions of the form D7b5 resolving to Gmaj7 are very common. The D7b5 is played with the b5 in the bass, allowing the bass to move chromatically from Ab down to G. (In fact on the guitar the progression D11 - D7b5 - Gmaj7 is common, where the D11 is played using notes AGcd - bottom to top - letting the bass move chromatically A -> Ab -> G on the 6th string, in what is essentially a full cadence D7 -> Gmaj7)

Mick

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 07:41 PM

A7(no 5) is what the accordion will give you when it plays a written A7. The designers of the Stradella mechanism considered that 7th chords never needed the fifth. So it's a very common sound, just not commonly written (in accordion music).

Does that book have a piano version to compare with?

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 08:11 PM

Good question, Jack.

Curious in Ormstown

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 10:58 PM

I don't use the program, so don't take this to the bank, but according to the ScoreWriter PDF, you can open a Step Input window, then play the notes on a MIDI keyboard, and it will enter the chord symbol. That way, you'll be able to find out chord symbol you're program uses for that chord...

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 09:31 AM

It's A C# Eb G as has been correctly said.
It's a jazz type chord, a chromatic alteration for approaching a V chord as Mick explained. It's referred to as a flatted fifth chord to avoid confusion with a diminished chord, which would flat the third as well as the fifth.
-G

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: GUEST,Johnmc
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 10:11 AM

It might be worth noting that a diminished chord -say C dim - is often written as C with a small o to its top right; in some books C- 7 is a C minor seventh; I would generally regard the - as meaning flattened otherwise.

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 11:44 AM

Also, it's worth playing through the tune using an A7 in place of the A7-5 to see if it's really necessary, or if it's just been added to make the chord accompaniment sound more interesting.

It is a good idea to play though the chords before posting them anyway, because songbooks are notorious for having wrong chords. Not quite as bad as websites, though..

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 12:02 PM

Got the following from

http://www.scales-chords.com/findnotes_en.php?n1=A&n2=C%23&n3=D%23&n4=G&n5=&strict=1


D#7b5         D sharp seventh flat five         D# G A C#        
A7b5         A seventh flat five                 A C# D# G        
Eb7b5         E flat seventh flat five         Eb G A Db

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 12:31 PM

That A7-5 should be spelled out at A-C#-Eb-C#, and the Eb7-5 should be spelled Eb-G-Bbb-Db. The reason is that the convention is that chords are spelled out as triads, which always are represented as a fundamental(1), it's third, and it's fifth

To make things simpler, (or more confusing), instead of figuring out how to play the Seventh flatted fifth chord, you can just play the seventh chord of that flatted note--, for instance, instead of A7-5(where the flatted note is Eb), you can play an Eb7. For the D#7-5 you can play an A7, and for the Eb, you can play Bbb7, which is really A7, but you can't call it that.

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 12:44 PM

Thanks, Stim.

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 01:05 PM

Stim's last suggestion (To make things simpler....) is really a different thing: namely a b5 substitution. This is a common thing in jazz playing, replacing a (possibly altered) dominant seventh chord with a (possibly altered) dominant 7th chord on the note a b5th above the original dominant chord's root (if you see what I mean!). You can replace, for example, a G7 chord with a Db7 chord, Db being the b5 above G.

This relies on the fact that the characteristic sound of a dominant seventh chord is primarily from the tritone between the 3rd and the b7 of the chord: in G7 [G B D F] this is the interval B-F. If we now look at the dominant 7th chord a b5 above G ie Db7, we have the notes Db F Ab Cb=B and in this chord the interval from the 3rd to the b7 is the tritone F-B. And since the inversion (changing the order of the two notes) of a tritone is a tritone, this has the same characteristic sound as in the G7 chord with the notes reversed.

Playing Eb7 is not the same as playing A7b5, ie the notes of the two chords are not the same. It is a substitute chord that may (in the right circumstances) be used to replace the A7b5 chord. As I said at the start of the post this is a very common thing to do in jazz playing.


Mick

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 02:52 PM

to see if it's really necessary, or if it's just been added to make the chord accompaniment sound more interesting.

I'd think that is frequently the reason for the way chord accompaniments are constructed. (Possibly Stim means "to make the chord accompaniment sound as if it is more interesting than it actually is.")

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: Nick
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 05:47 PM

It's still a chord with a flattened fifth for whatever reason. I play it (along with A7+5 and Adim7 and Am7-5 - the latter two being different beasts in case I set people off again; the one with a G and the other with an F#)

Whether they are applicable to folk music or session playing is a different thing.

Definitely seen and heard some of my favourite session accompanists playing them sometimes- for the most part appropriately (for me)

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: treewind
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 05:57 PM

Hmm: ♭ seems to work...

So for a flat sign insert into your text: ♭ (including that trailing semicolon)

And that will work for everyone as long as thay have any font with a flat symbol in it somewhere on their computer.

Subject: RE: Unusual (?) chord label
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 12:58 AM

I am probably too tired to explain this properly, but on some occassions, in say, a Bossa Nova in C, you'd play an altered dominant, G7-5/Db7-5, because there is a melody note in that chord that you can't get anywhere else.

In other cases, the altered dominant might be a substitute chord in a turnaround that provides a bass line that descends by half steps--such as ||Em7 A7-5/Dm7 G7-5/Cmaj7 Cmaj7||(which gives you E-Eb-D-Db-C-C in the bass) instead of ||Em7 A7/Dm7 G7/Cmaj7 Cmaj7||(which give you E-A-D-G-C-C in the bass), so it is optional(in relation to the melody-the bass player might have another opinion;-)

On the other issue, in every case that say, an A7-5 appears on a chord chart, you can play an Eb7-5, because they are the same chord, and you can also just play an Eb7 with no 5th of any kind, or an A7 with no 5th of any kind. The reason that the chords are interchangeable is that they both have a G-Db, the augmented fourth/diminished fifth interval in them, and that sound dominates(it's the Devil's interval!)