Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 17 May 00 - 01:08 AM

Yes Margo thats what it means.. usually sails where taken down and repaired; they use the expression to bend on sails. Which means tying them back on the yards ready for use again. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Margo
Date: 17 May 00 - 01:00 AM

I have a question: What does it mean to "bend on sail". I have heard it in shanteys, and also read a description of it in Basil Lubbock's book "Round the Horn Before the Mast". Unfortunately, I don't understand Lubbock's description! If you bend on sail, are you putting it up? Thanks, Margo

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 16 May 00 - 08:33 PM

One very similar to this one was listed above, however I could not open it. Found it at this URL:

http://www.delweb.com/andrew/shanty/

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: GUEST,Timbrel
Date: 16 May 00 - 06:16 PM

"The Arabella" is perfect for little kids. I teach in a maritime history program for school-age kids. We hear a lot of "Johnny's Gone Down to Hilo", and "A Long Time Ago", and "Santy Anno" and the like. Plenty that's appropriate, and if a verse is not, usually the song suffers little by leaving it out.

On the PC topic: It's easy to take the "let them hear anything" stand if they're your OWN kids. But those of us who work with other people's children have to respect their child-rearing preferences, in general...so we tend to think it's better for the kids to have exposure to the music even if it's bowdlerized. Heaven knows, if they become interested in it, a very small amount of independent exploration will lead to more complete knowledge.

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 15 May 00 - 08:27 PM

Better change it to "Jack had a huge erection but never went whaling."

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 00 - 07:34 PM

Farewell To Tarwathie, another whaling song would be out of the question then mate! Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 15 May 00 - 03:53 PM

PC Police Alert - but Jack Was Every Inch A Sailor upsets my twins because of it being about whaling, which they've been taught it such a heinous thing, can you believe it!

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 15 May 00 - 02:11 PM

Sean M -

There are two members of Dogwatch on the tape, Gary Keep and Roger Bramble, but the musicians, 19 in all, were brought together from different groups along with some solo performers, and a significant number of non-performers who have been associated with the living history program and monthly chantey sing. It's pretty rough around the edges, recorded after one rehearsal but it has a spark that is difficult to produce in a studio. Revell Carr, who led the chantey sings at that time, produced it several months before he left the Park for graduate studies.

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: SeanM
Date: 15 May 00 - 01:04 PM

Hey chanteyranger...

That tape you mentioned - is the band Dogwatch by any chance?

M

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Wotcha
Date: 15 May 00 - 01:00 PM

Well both my kids come to sings with me, and can join in the choruses pretty well, as at least one Mudcatter will attest!

Try the following:
Away Rio
Reuben Ranzo
Blow Boys Blow
Spanish Ladies
Roll Alabama Roll

Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 00 - 11:02 AM

Whip Jamboree is another mild and decent one that may be used although there are several different lyrics to it. The Greenland Whale Fisheries is more a Forebitter but a good song.. The Bullgine run (Marine version) is a good song too! Yours, Aye. dave

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 00 - 07:18 AM

There are several versions of "Roll The Old Chariot Along" that can be extemporised by the singer to make them palatable to children and adults who were not raised in the North Atlantic School of couth and culture....Such gentle people should not be exposed to the hoary (whoreY) sailor songs. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 15 May 00 - 04:30 AM

In San Francisco, a tape was produced on board the historic ship BALCLUTHA of chanteys and other types of sea songs, specifically for kids and teachers involved in a living history program done aboard ship. The recording features a group of local musicians associated with the San Francisco Maritime Natinal Historical Park. If interested, contact me through the mudcat and I'll give you more info on that.

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Chicky
Date: 14 May 00 - 11:00 PM

My kids' fave song of the moment is "Pack 'o Pirates" of the album of the same name by John Warner. Lots of YO-HO-HO-ing. It's a fabulous kids' album all 'round.

You can get it here.

Cheers - Chicky

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From:
Date: 14 May 00 - 10:50 PM

I was lucky enough to get to hear Dave(The Ancient Mariner) sing a couple of Sea Shanties at the Shanty Sing which finished off tonight's Sounds Like Sunday.

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From:
Date: 14 May 00 - 10:48 PM

Found it here

http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~andrew/shanty/kanaka.html

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From:
Date: 14 May 00 - 06:26 PM

Can anyone help me get the lyrics to 'john kanaka'. My kids sang ti aboard the 'peking' at NYC South Street Seaport and loved it. But they can no longer remeber the words.

Thanks, John

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Jon W.
Date: 02 Nov 99 - 10:22 AM

Back when I was a new scoutmaster I taught my scouts "Strike the Bell" as a lesson in teamwork and leadership. We didn't sing the H-E-Double Hockeysticks word very loud though.

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 99 - 08:28 AM

the story about Mam Hacketts compose heap?

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 10:51 PM

Thanks for the refresher Kendall, must've been a Downeaster, has the smell of a maniac's wit & I always take their potatoes with a grain of salt. Now if you could only tell me where I may have read that or who may have read it to me? From downwind of you, who is uphill from me. Barry

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Pelrad
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 09:58 AM

Seems to me Tom Lewis also is responsible for the Bunts story. A must for every fourth-grader (NOT!). lol

But songs like Sailor Aint a Sailor, Marching Inland, and even Diesel and Shale would be great for kids. Among the traditional, Haul on the Bowline, the Wild Goose Chantey and Bold Riley-O are harmless.

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Margo
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 09:50 AM

This is the way I like to start my day....laughing! Thanks, Margo

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 08:48 AM

Captain Simes ... "I regret to inform you that Castine has sunk, and we have sailed directly over Mam Hacketts compost heap."

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Oct 99 - 09:54 PM

Hi Margarita, Tom did write the Sailor's Prayer. He based his song on the chorus which is traditional with the exception of "beak" where it had originally been "wings". IMHO he did a fantastic job all around & does a great job singing it too.
I remember reading a story (but can't remember where anymore) in which a skipper ( a Yankee or a Downeaster, I think) claimed to be able to tell his position by the smell of the sea bottom that would come up with the heaving of the lead. Now the crew thought to have a grand laugh at the skipper's expence. While last on shore they grabbed some chicken dung from the yard of one of the locals. When the skipper called for the lead during a fog to find out where they were the crew stuffed the lead with the chicken dung & waited. Well the skipper was in horror saying that they had run ashore & were in the middle of Mrs. ?????? yard. (as best I can remember it). Barry

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Margo
Date: 31 Oct 99 - 11:55 AM

DSL, isn't Tom Lewis the one who wrote the song about praying for doves to slit the throats of them there blokes what sells bad beer to sailors?
Micca, I am currently putting Kendall's poem to music, about navigating with potatoes. If Kendall approves with the end product, we'll get it to everyone here...

Margarita

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Micca
Date: 31 Oct 99 - 11:17 AM

The John Kanaka-naka to Hawaiian I wasnt sure about I suspected a connection but if you want to give the PCs heart failure sing "Bound for Valparaiso round Cape Horn with its "Johnny Crapoos just across from France" and what about Limeys. I love the concept of "navigating with potatos" if its the basis of a song or poem send it to me, please. I sailed with a skipper on the English and near continetal coast once in my youth, who had done his early traing on a Thames Sailing barge on the east coast of England who claimed he could navigate in fog by the barking of the dogs ashore, he knew their voices and barks. I, like you, thought this was a load of oakum, until in a dense fog he brought us 60 miles into the Thames Estuary without any navigation aids and a anchored us within 100 yards of the position on the chart he claimed we were in when the fog cleared

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: DSL
Date: 31 Oct 99 - 03:30 AM

Try "South Australia" and "Donkey Riding" they are pretty harmless. Politically Correct Sea Shanties What Next? Tom Lewis has some good ones for kids. Album= Surfacing. Cheers!

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: RiGGy
Date: 30 Oct 99 - 12:37 PM

Hey Barbara !!

Howzaboot gettin' us the words to

"Bunny in the Garden"

Sounds REAL useful & cute !!

RiGGy

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 Oct 99 - 09:01 AM

When I was building boats at The Baldwinsville Boatyard we had our own shanties that worked for the situation at hand. Not vey lyric and to these deck apes rhythymn was something for Catholics. Then I started with some few tunes that I'd heard, they decided I was nuts.

Shanties are work songs set to a place and an occupation. Pick a job, show the kids how its done and have them develop the song and rhythymn to do the work. Pulling lines or stacking hay, its the cadence thats important, not the words or meaning.

My kids grew up with the correct (original) lyrics and original meanings to every song I know. They aren't the least bit bent by it and they understand more about racism, intolerance, and real history than do most folks.

Regards

Don

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Boarding Party (KC)
Date: 30 Oct 99 - 08:47 AM

Just to second Barry's point, Sam's Gone Away was our absolute best "kids" bit. Get them started and you can come up with the most creative shipboard billets (I wish I was the principal, aboard a man o war ...)

We also had good luck with the "Hey Ho Little Fishes" version we got from Eric Illot, late of Bristol.

Finally, Jonathan's "Waltzing with Whales" parody always worked well.

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Margo
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 02:52 PM

Kendall, that is rich! Have you set the poem to music? I'd love to try....

You're right, there are a whole slew of sayings that we use ashore the origin of which were sea language. Enough to fill a book. The book I have is "Sea Language comes ashore" by Joanna Colcord. She says that "Irish Hurricane" is a dead calm! Haha

Margo

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 08:51 AM

bettcha never heard of "Navigating with potatoes?"

Maine radar

I once wrote a poem based on a true incident with this idea in it.

In a dungeon of thick fog, we were crawling along in Penobscot Bay Maine, and my mate was worried that we would plow into the side of one of the hugh tankers out there, so, I told him we would have to navigate with potatoes. He was to stand on the bow, and one by one, throw a potato straight ahead as hard as he could.
If one of them didn't splash, I would come about...

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Fadac
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 07:49 AM

Some that I have heard,

On an Irish ship, the Irish pennant is known as "the Saxon Flag"

Sweedish desiel (how ever you spell it.) is oars.

Norwigen chainsaw, and axe.

Cork boots, the boots with all the little spikes on the bottom for working on logs.

Then there was a whole bunch, that you don't want to use anymore.

-Fadac

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Barbara
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 02:02 AM

A friend recently sang me a version of "Bully in the Alley" that her first graders and she rewrote to "So, help me Mom, there's a bunny in the garden, eating all the carrots and peas."
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: SeanM
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 01:30 AM

Well, I can speak from experience that as recently as the early '90s, "irish pennant" was still in use in the US Navy. I can't track the number of times I was called out for them during boot camp.

As to the dangers of bowdlerized shanties, I'm torn. IMHO, when you get down to it, it's the basic argument of preservation by any means over authenticity. Is it better that the shanties fade into obscurity, rather than let landsmen sing them?

I am all for preservation. Though I will admit that once they are taken from the sea, they lose most of their "shanty" feel and enter the realm of general folk songs.

M

"A sailor ain't a sailor ain't a sailor any more..."

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From:
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 12:53 AM

Thanks! You have all been extremely helpful,and I will be sure to look into all of your suggestions!!!

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From:
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 08:50 PM

JAB said...

>The Fish of the Sea page is really nice. >The words and tune are a little bit different >from what I have seen before and the versions >that are in the DT. Where did they come from?

This is a version collected by Helen Creighton, and it originates in Nova Scotia.

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 08:39 PM

among the old railroad workers, an Irish banjo was a shovel, also, a Georgis credit card is a siphon hose.. Lithuanian overdrive.. reutral... Georgia air brake.. mudflaps. Maine pickup.. an old Oldsmobile 98 cut off behind the front seat with a wood body behind.

actually, there are dozens of still used words and phrases in the language which originated with the old sailing ships. (too many to list) pooped, kick the bucket, by and large, 3 sheets to the wind etc.

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Micca
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 07:51 PM

I am not sure, speaking as an ex-Merchant Navy man and a certificated Able Seaman that laundering Sea shanties too much is a good idea. I suppose for young chidren o.k. anything to protect the young, but Bowdler and his ilk have been my enemies all my life. I was at sea in the mid 60s and served in a small ship around the coast of Europe in between longer ocean going trips, we had to ocasionally bring large 40 gallon oil drums on board using what was known as "Norwegian steam" ie by hand power. We had a deck hand called Bert Grey from Shetland who acted as Shantyman and it worked brilliantly. He, and we, used Shanties for real (Sally Racket for short haul and Whup Jamboree( a very non-PC version) and very enlightening it was too. NB I don't know if it's the same in the Americas, but among Limeys a lot of things acquire National names. Norwegian steam, Irish pennants etc. curious, any one throw light?

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: lamarca
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 05:22 PM

When Jeff Warner and Jeff Davis used to do school programs here in Maryland, they were asked not to sing "John Kanaka-naka" in our oh-so politically correct public school system because it was a "derogatory term referring to native Hawaiians" (which I didn't know...) So there are mines and pitfalls unless the person teaching the shanties is up on the actual meaning and history of some of the more arcane lingo being used in the songs...

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 05:12 PM

Barry:

The Fish of the Sea page is really nice. The words and tune are a little bit different from what I have seen before and the versions that are in the DT. Where did they come from?

Another fun Shanty for kids is "Sam's Gone Away" There was a thread on it about 6 months ago.

JAB

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Chet W.
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 04:55 PM

I did my first appendectomy with a marlin spike when I was fifteen. I've been lashed to the mast so many times it feels like home. I'll get that curs-ed white whale or go to the bottom a'tryin'.

Batten the foc'sle and pleat the sheets, Chet

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 04:25 PM

when my two older daughters were young, they loved The New York Girls... then, they grew up and found out what it was about, so, in a state of shock, they turned to KISS. My youngest liked The Diamond. Then she turned to Michel Jackson go figure.

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Barry (again)
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 03:38 PM

&*%$##! I got one only out of the two blue clicky things right. Let's try again for Fish of the Sea... Fish of the Sea

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Barry in Victoria, BC
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 03:35 PM

I agree with Margarita... The Fish of the Sea is perfect for school kids. See the lyrics and hear a midi here. It was a working song, so it has the potential for adding choreographed actions along with the singing (e.g., pulling on rope, etc.)

Jack Was Every Inch A Sailor may also be suitable.

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 02:49 PM

I teach a sea shanty unit to 4th graders. We sing:
Blow Ye Winds in the Morning
John Kanaka
Cape Cod Girls
Greenland Whale Fisheries
Johnny Come to Hilo
Drunken Sailor

I cover my derriere on the last one with a talk about the dangers of drunkenness on board ship and how the fellow seamen would fantasize about revenge!! A minor coloration of the truth, to be sure, but they love the song!

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 01:30 PM

I always get a boot out of hearing landsmen singing sea chanties. Oscar Brand, for instance, not understanding the real words, made them up to suit himself, thereby causing the song to make no sense to anyone but him. I spent much of my adult years at sea, so, unfortunately, all I know are the "real" ones. Lets face it, those old time sailors were not choir boys.

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Lesley N.
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 08:29 AM

I taught high school students and the there are many vocal young men who can't relate "tastefull" and sex, except, of course, in ways that you do not usually want discussed in a classroom that does not have to do with health or Mr. Clinton...

Love them dearly - kept me on my toes and we had many lively convesations - some of which were like riding a bucking bronco. I'd start that discussion in a heartbeat because it would most certainly be one of interest to them. Given that sort of "anticipatory set" I'd bet they'd learn everything there was to know about shanties and sailors!

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Marc
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 08:19 AM

I agree, making up verses is perfectly appropriat for chanties, "sailors did it",and it's a great way to get kids involved. Get yourself a copy of Stan Hugills, Shanties of the Seven Seas, or Wm Dorrflingers, Songs of Sailors and Lumbermen. There are Hundreds of choices to work with in both and both are largely clean. By the way, sailors actually sang about booze and women. Isn't it possable to teach kids history, how sailors viewed their world and themselves and still be tastefull yet true to the material?

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Margo
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 12:02 AM

Yes, you can clean some up. Paddy West is a good one. The only word changes I did in that one were: the mate's a scoundrel instead of the mate's a bastard. And the subject matter is easy to understand.

The Bold Princess Royal is nice because the good guys get away from the pirates!

The Fish of the Sea is fun because the fish pop up out of the water one by one and taunt the skipper, telling him he won't make it in the stormy weather, and he ought to go ashore. (Sometimes listed as Windy Old Weather)

Have fun! Margarita

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: Lesley N.
Date: 27 Oct 99 - 10:55 PM

If you need the music you can find midis with lyrics at my Songs of the Sea (http://www.contemplator.com/sea.html) page. It will also give you some of the stories and history behind the shanties (which reminds me I have stuff to add on Paddy West.) There should be several there to suit.

As sailors often added their own verses it might be fun to have the kids make up some of their own too! You could have them make up their own verses to Leave Her Johnny (if they get some background into how hard life was on a sailing ship). Or to illustrate how shanties took on a life of their own you could have them think about how much they *like* about school - school food for instance, and put those sentiments into Leave Her Johnny...

I also agree with Sean, clean them up to suit your needs as well. Most of the authors of the books I took the shanties from cleaned them up for their works!

Have fun!

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: SeanM
Date: 27 Oct 99 - 10:26 PM

Sorry...

Should have added that all of the songs that I listed in bold are in the database... if you'd like lyrics, just type the name into the search box in the upper right corner.

M

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: SeanM
Date: 27 Oct 99 - 10:16 PM

I'm gonna get beaten for this, but...

Just about any of the 'call and response' shanties (Haul away Joe, Paddy Doyle's Boots, One More Day, etc., etc., etc...) can be cleaned up for children. I've sung all of these and several more, and we sing them as straight improvisational songs, with the chorus being sung by the group, and the verses being made up on the spot. They can be as dirty or clean as you want them.

If you're looking for straight, traditional shanties, then the pickings are a bit more lean. The Dead Horse shanty comes to mind... Paddy West should work (depending on the version, there may be one or two alcohol references, but there are plenty of bowdlerized ones as well), and a personal favorite of mine is Leave Her, Johnny, which most versions I've seen have very little in the way of "objectionable" material. Actually, another good song that may or may not be considered a "shanty" is Rolling Home. It apparently existed on shore first, but was picked up as a forebitter by the sailors.

Hope this helps...

M

Subject: RE: Help: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From: John Hindsill
Date: 27 Oct 99 - 09:52 PM

You might try looking at www.ucs.mun.ca/~andrew/shanty/

Can't vouch for suitability for young ones, but about 75 songs are listed, plus lots of other information.

Subject: sea shanties and maritime folk stuff
From:
Date: 27 Oct 99 - 09:33 PM

I am looking for info on any sea shanties that might be fun to teach children. I have found a few interesting ones but they nearly all have liquor, sex or racist remarks in their lyrics. I am looking for stuff that may be suitable for elementary children. Thanks!