BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!

Subject: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: alex s
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 06:02 AM

Lord Bichard (who?) proposes making pensioners do some work e.g. in the community, or face a reduction in their pension.
Great idea, Bichard, to make the people who've worked all their lives do some more in retirement (or else!).
Bichard, listen - retirement means not working any more. Geddit?
How about making fit young people who've never worked.......   

If ever there was a compelling argument for scrapping the ludicrous "Lords", Bichard is the man. Let's hope this idiot's crackpot ideas hastens their demise.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: alex s
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 06:04 AM

....hasten...

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 06:11 AM

What a dreadful idea, and what a blooming cheek! Actually, many of us oldies do a lot of VOLUNTARY community work, but we choose to do it, we're not forced. Good grief, I feel like ordering a Kalashnikov and a couple of hand grenades on ebay. What about making retired politicians and bankers do some work? Or some of these lassies with double pushchairs and no visible means of support?

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 06:21 AM

Another great idea from a typical Tory arsehole. What weird little world do these people live in? If I want to work after 65 (and I probably will), I'd expect to be paid a proper salary - not just the pension pittance.

I wonder if fire-bombing Tory Party HQ counts as community work - it would certainly benefit the community.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 06:30 AM

What makes you think you have a right to sit on your tail?
Get a job.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 06:45 AM

""Another great idea from a typical Tory arsehole.""

-snip- In 2004, the Home Secretary David Blunkett (previously Bichard's minister as Secretary of State for Education and Employment) appointed Bichard to chair an inquiry into the "Soham murders" of two 10-year-old girls; the inquiry has since been known as the "Bichard Inquiry".

He was non-Executive Chair of RSe Consulting from 2003-2008. RSe Consulting provided strategic and management consulting services to local government and became part of Tribal Group Plc in 2008.

Bichard was appointed Chair of the Legal Services Commission in April 2005. There he introduced a range of reforming measures aimed at modernising the legal aid system. He was also chair of the educational charity Rathbone.

Bichard left these two roles in September 2008 when he became the Director of the Institute for Government, a post he passed on to Andrew Adonis in 2010, when Bichard became a part time fellow.-snip- Wiki.

He got his peerage in March 2010 from the outgoing Labour government.

Doesn't sound much like a Tory to me.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 06:56 AM

Buggar off. I've worked all my life for my pension and I'm entitled to enjoy it.

Most retired people, me included, find plenty to do in the voluntary sector, without soaking up employment opportunities which should go to younger people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 07:09 AM

"Doesn't sound much like a Tory to me."

OK, for 'Tory' substitute 'smug, over-privileged, out-of-touch'....no, nothing like a Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 07:18 AM

All right Leveller, if you say so.

To me, he sounds just as much like the plethora of 'smug, over-privileged, out-of-touch' Labour Peers who also inhabit the Lords.

But of course, expecting a one eyed, blinkered, lefty to admit that is perhaps over optimistic.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 07:26 AM

You can pick up trash on the highway. You might find cool stuff.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,sewerrat
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 07:38 AM

Krinkle, you are so stupid you are brilliant. What a comedian. x

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 07:41 AM

I'm a near genius, I am.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 08:47 AM

And modest too!

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 08:56 AM

In addition to all the income tax I (and countless others) have paid over the years, we've also contributed extensively via national insurance deductions - thousands and thousands and thousands - ostensibly to fund our own state pensions and welfare benefits.

Bichard seems to be ignoring the fact that the state pension is a contributory pension fund - we've paid in. We've already made the contribution - it's not a charity hand out, we're entitled to it because we've already paid in. Grrrr!

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 09:10 AM

So? They're going to beat us out of our Social Security benefits. We paid in. Too bad. A Vienna Sausage retirement. Yum!
=(:-( P)

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 09:20 AM

Don, leveller - we get the message. One of you is a tory, one is not a tory.

Now - have you anything to say on this subject?

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: gnomad
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 09:27 AM

Unfortunately National Insurance is not a contributory Pension scheme unless it has changed significantly since last time I checked.

Current pension and welfare costs (of all kinds) are supposed to be met by current contributions, which is fine if you have a significant young (and able to find gainful employment) populace to fund an insignificant number of short-living pensioners, as was the case when it was all set up. It works far less well when there is a declining proportion of the populace doing the funding, ever increasing life expectancy, and health costs which know no limits.

I don't have a solution, but am quite sure that forcing further slaves into the market place isn't one either. It will simply further erode the life-chances of marginally employable youngsters. Perhaps the hidden agenda is to reduce life-expectancy, thus slightly relieving the overall problem.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 09:45 AM

"To me, he sounds just as much like the plethora of 'smug, over-privileged, out-of-touch' Labour Peers who also inhabit the Lords."

Me too. I've no time for either peers or most the Labour Party.

But of course, expecting a one eyed, blinkered, rightie to see that is perhaps over optimistic. "Pot", "kettle" and "black", spring to mind.

Bichard refers to himself as a 'cross-bencher'. Having a foot in both camps does not make his suggestion any more acceptable. Like I said, working beyond the age of 65 is not a problem for me (in fact, I wish employers were more accomodating on this matter) but I would expect to be paid a proper salary unless I CHOSE to do voluntary work. It's probably escaped his attention that much of the voluntary charity work in the UK is already done by retired people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 10:56 AM

I tried. The school I was doing supply work in ran out of money. I got a nice letter telling me they weren't going to need me any more except for...the voluntary swimming teaching I do for them - until they get their act together on having enough staff to do it in house, as it costs me petrol money to get there.

Unpaid work on the orders of someone with a cushy paid non-job, now that's yet another matter.

What they really want is for us all to die so that a) we won't cost anything, and b) we won't vote against them.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 01:18 PM

They ought to be more flexible. Sometimes you have to re-think your career. At least, that's how its been for me, and I suspect it is for most people.

When Denise got ill, we were in our twenties and we were both teachers. Obviously it was no good being a teacher any more - they're still going to ring the school bell and the class will be waiting - even if you have got to help your wife on to the toilet, cos she's disabled.

So I became an entertainer - did that for a lot of years. then i got ill with my heart, and I couldn't do humping around big PA systems or throw myself around a stage any more.

Took me a while to work out that I could still play the guitar in pubs and that was better than being retired, and the world having no use for you any more.

I suppose if I get a stroke and that is taken away from me, i'll have to think again.

Retirement needn't be final. Not if you don't want. You can have a think, and think of some other sort of thing you'd like to do.

I f you want to spend a long time painting, doing your garden, reading all those books you always wanted to read - that's not really retiring. there's still some sort of anbition burning away somewhere.

I think I object to the term retiring - its so negative. Sounds like a cricket batsman too knackered to go on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 01:41 PM

Do you suppose that the increasingly 'popular' (with NHS) Liverpool Care Pathway is a plot to reduce our numbers? Starve and thirst to death and you're no longer a burden on the State. It's a bit sinister that these two ideas have surfaced together!

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 03:57 PM

In the USA- and I expect in most countries - retired people finally have the time to commit to volunteering positions, whether in charity shops or political booths or museums or tax-question assistance or wherever else needed. Society would screech to a halt if they stopped volunteering and instead took paying jobs, whether for a pittance or actual pay.

Not to mention: I thought we already have a shortage of jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 04:04 PM

The thing about the House of Lords is that they get paid for turning up.
No show, no pay. No contribution, no difference, though.
I have a job like that. It's called 'retirement.'

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 04:08 PM

Quite right Ebbie. I did voluntary work for 8hrs a week in a local large hospital for years after retiring. The number of volunteers in that place was phenominal, including cafeteria assistants,coffee shop workers, in-house supermarket assistants, mobile trolley shop(me and several others) library trolley, Listeners in the chapel, ward practical helpers, guides to departments, hospital car service drivers, Women's Voluntary Service Shop (me again on a Saturday evening)etc. It ran into some hundreds. Imagine the cost if all those folk had to be paid. They'd just pack up the services and do without I expect. Retired people are absolutely invaluable to society. But it's voluntary, not obligatory. Not every older person has the health and strength to work, and it should be a matter of choice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 05:11 PM

If a Canadian politician suggested that, I'd go to his constituency office and throw his damned desk on him, voluntarily.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: gnu
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 05:21 PM

9... I'd help ya. Unreal, man!

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 05:30 PM

We didn't get this sort of rubbish from the hereditary peers. Once they started letting riffraff in from the political parties, we got more and more of these stupid ideas. Bring back the House of Lords and send the politicians back where they came from!
The hereditary peers at least get contact with working people, unlike the Political Leaders (no names, no packdrill).

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 07:24 PM

I'd forgotten about hospitals- I happen not to have volunteered in one. But I have friends who do- and the range of services they offer is wide. Everything from letter reading and letter writing to assisting with feeding, handling bedpans and washing faces and hands plus lots more.

What would we do without volunteers!

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 07:40 PM

""Don, leveller - we get the message. One of you is a tory, one is not a tory.

Now - have you anything to say on this subject?""

Yeah! FUCK 'EM! We paid our dues long ago, and we're entitled to our pensions (what Gordon Brown left of 'em), and to our rest.

And that's not a partisan statement since my pension (and most others) was raided by GB.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Seayaker
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 07:49 PM

For 30 or 40 years some people have warned that because of the Baby Boomers (like myself) and the falling birthrate, there would be a problem paying for pensions. What did the politicians (like Bichard) do about it? nothing.

Except convince people that they've never had it so good, give tax cuts, bread and circuses.

I've never been unemployed or on benefits, always paid tax and other contributions and saved a bit.

Young people need employment why should I deprive them of it?

I'm retired and staying that way.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 08:08 PM

That of course is the other important issue.

If we steal their jobs with our accumulated experience, how will today's youngsters a) Raise families, b) feed, clothe and house themselves and c) Build a pension pot for their own retirement?

I don't, in principal, mind taking a part time job, though ill health makes it impractical, because it isn't something that a youngster could live on, but if I did it would be because I chose to, not because some half arsed politico thought I should.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 03:10 AM

"And that's not a partisan statement since my pension (and most others) was raided by GB."

Well there's something we can agree on!

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 03:40 AM

An aside: just come across this, which puts a rather different perspective on the economy, the deficit, austerity measures and how the government is misleading us. And it's by a conservative!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ramesh-patel/growth-cameron-austerity_b_2007552.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Musket
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 03:59 AM

This guy is not a member of either party and makes an observation based on a combination of both his experience as head of the benefits agency and his own senility.

As mentioned above, he owes any allegiance to his position to Labour.

Yet this has become, once again, a battle of chippy perceived social warfare. Getting a bit tedious if you ask me. (Not that anyone ever does.)

In terms of addressing the thread, I think he has missed the point. If it wasn't for retired people getting off their arses and volunteering, the country would not be in a fit state and Cameron's big society that he aims for and for many is a present reality without politicians taking credit, wouldn't exist. If we must get political, then raising the pension age dissuades and reduces the number of people who feel capable and able to volunteer.

I spend a lot of my time in healthcare establishments and have always been impressed with how volunteers are attracted to the industry, and on a related matter, how nursing and care homes attract good people to work for minimum wage on the basis that looking after others is hardwired in us. Yes, if you pay more, you raise the bar and dissuade the people portrayed on recent documentaries for being patently unsuitable to work with vulnerable people, but that ain't going to change any time soon, as council funding budgets are cut and regulatory expectations rise.

His comments on pensioners contributing their skills falls on deaf ears as 1) he is preaching to the converted; those who wish to probably do, and 2) governments, of either colour, need to fund the services we have with younger people who need to work.

Right - in part two, we will be discussing the mechanics of nailing jelly to the ceiling.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Eddie1 continuing sans cookie
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 04:22 AM

This guy is absolutely correct in what he says!

Taking myself as an example, I only worked for 45 years then had the brass neck to retire although I was decent enough to wait for another 5 years before getting my State Retirement Pension from which I pay no Income Tax! Mark you, I do have that tax deducted from my Civil Service Pension to make up for it.

Since then, I have only put in about 20 hours or so per week (or is it nearer 30 when I think of the admin I do from home), volunteering with a local community radio station.

Over the past couple of years, despite having several bouts of ill-health, I have presented programmes working with a couple of hundred local groups, organisations and charities - most of which use, and need, volunteers - many of whom are retired.

I feel myself to be a total burden on the state and, if I could only remember where I put my cheque book, I'd send him one for the total I have had by way of Retirement Pension.

Gosh, I feel so ashamed!

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:02 AM

""And it's by a conservative!""

Every party has its eejits, and this one should be a Labour MP if he's going to lie for them.

His whitewash of New Labour showing the apparent reduction of deficit between 1997 and 2008 leaves out one extremely important factor.

No mention is made of the country's gold which bolstered that false success.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:06 AM

400 tons of gold sold for £2.3 billion, and worth today £12.95 billion.

The best investment we never made.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:54 AM

The thing is, you can't rely on there being volunteers to do do vital work. Sometimes they are there, but more of ten , there are not qualified people there.

By qualified, i do not mean necessarily - qualified by college degrees. Its not an easily quantifiable thing, is it?

I'd be interested to know what other people think. Being a pensioner does not necessarily that you're decrepit - on the other hand - if its vital work - you do need people that are reliable and vigorous.

Retired people and their skills and experience are a great resource, but unlike the army of unemployed (who really should have first dibs at the jobs that are going) you cannot rule out them becoming unavailable - for reasons of getting too old and their health breaking down.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 06:01 AM

I can see what you mean, Al, but in my experience, it's the pensioners who are the most reliable. My friend Pat is 76 and has worked as a volunteer two days a week for Age UK. She's done this for six years now and in all that time she has never, ever failed to turn up, not once. She works on the Helpline and also arranges lasting Power of Attorney for people in their own homes. In the hospital where I worked, the youngsters (eg cleaners and other paid ancilliary staff) would roll in late, hungover or phone in 'sick' far too often. I think our generation has (generally speaking) a rock-solid work ethic, and we're reliable and dependable.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 06:31 AM

Well obviously being reired isn't a cipher for being unreliable.

However - I can only speeak from my own experience. My wife attended a number of meetings organised by Arthritis care which inspired her to start the mansfield arthritis Support Group. It was extremely hard work, and eventually, though we both loved the group and itsmembers and we still stay in touch, it simply became too much. The group has continued to flourish.

However Arthritis Care lost its driving force during the thatcher years and was just struggling for survival - it limited it self to merely keeping going and raising funds - which was understandable.the combination of people having to pay for long term care in residential homes - rather than leaving a bequest to charity, and the National Lottery and Telethons creaming off charitable donations.

We were aware that groups like we had in Mansfield were necessary all over England. But there simply weren't people getting the visionary message any more - the message of the vital work that support groups can do fantastic work in helping people with difficult conditions, with practical help and support.

It really does need people of vision to get help and support to their fellow man. There is a limit to what a Dad's Army can achieve, and I think we touched that ceiling with our group.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 07:34 AM

Without meaning to sound patronising in any way, I'd like to express my admiration for the work you and your wife undertook. I'm sure countless people were very very grateful for all your efforts.
And it's true, younger people with inspiration and vision are needed to keep organisations flying along. I personally cannot do quite so much volunary work as I used to because I'm not too strong nowadays. But still, the Grey Army contributes enormously to the life of the community. To force them to work for part of their State Pension is downright insulting.
I also helped with the Samaritans at one time, and they seemed to me to be staffed largely by older volunteers. But the Director was usually slightly younger, which backs up your viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Ann N
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 08:15 AM

The local radio station had an interview with Bichard this morning and it turns out he's no intention making pensioners 'work' for their pension and was horrified that the papers have misquoted a question he'd put to other people on the select committee, he'd also sent letters to the papers concerned pointing out the error in the reporting but was not suprised that it's not mentioned in any of the articles.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 10:07 AM

Good news Ann. Phew!

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Musket
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 10:20 AM

Till the usual idiots start their "no smoke without fire" piffle...

Al, I agree with what you say. One thing Th*tcher did that was clever from her perspective and the voluntary sector walked straight into the trap, was when she got pig sick with charities being political pressure groups, moaning about the levels of care, of funding etc. She allowed them to bid to run the services themselves.

So, many larger charities were running services with public finding. NSF (now Rethink) being the example I was involved with. It became difficult to run services and campaign for a better deal for people at the same time.

Th*tcher 1.0 Decent society.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:46 PM

Thatcher also abolished SERPS.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 07:24 PM

Actually Ian, I wasn't actually criticising Thatcher. i was using the Thatcher years as a historical time -the time she was in power and in influence.

i was referring to it as a time when there were great medical advances in - particularly in the treatment of heart disease and also a time when cigarette advertising started to get regulated - measures which must have made a great difference to mortality rates.

i don't think AC is or was political - its always been prettycareful not to be. For various reasons - their main patron is the Duke of Westminster who owns most of London - not yer average marxist leninist /Dave spart type. Also the big wheels tend to be quite well paid charity professionals. Not sure what side of the barricades they would be - but I can guess.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 08:37 PM

Have any of you Brits heard about Philip Davies who has said that disabled workers are less productive than others and should work for less than minimum wage? Tell me: why is this asshole/arsehole walking around the streets and who are the nitwits who elected him?

The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 01:49 AM

Here is the article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jun/17/tory-philip-davies-disabled-people-work

from the party whose defenders are always at hand on mudcat. Does Davies really believe that, or is he wanting to raise his profile as a 'nasty ' tory who will always kiss the bum of a Thatcherite leader? Probably. Just a career move - like Romney cosying to the SPUC gang.

Removing the civil rights of disabled people will play well with the sort of people who opposed the unions over the minimum wage's introduction. You know who....!

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Musket
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 04:53 AM

Hi Al.

i wasn't being overtly political, just pointing out that at her time, and through her policies, charities became service providers and the many volunteers, many elderly, found themselves elbowed out of the picture as the charities had to employ lots of professionals in service delivery.

When I first got involved with NSF through their Sutton in Ashfield office, the place was stuffed with volunteers. When I stopped being involved, just about everybody I spoke with was employed.

Kind of fits in this thread...


The '80s were, as Al says, a time of huge advances and lowering mortality outlier rates. (Mortality rates are by definition 100%, so outliers is the way to look at improvements.) But whilst we are attributing Prime Ministers, let us not forget that although Bliar may go down as a warmonger, he, through his Minister Patricia Hewitt, (Postcode Pat) introduced what will in later years be seen as the largest public health advance in England in modern times when smoking in public places was banned. Let us not forget that she was forced to vote against her own legislation because of the weird ways manifestos and whips work, it was the only way to get it through.

Subject: RE: BS: UK pensioners - get back to work!!
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 05:02 AM

I'm not sure that this is the way to pursue his argument (apparently he wanted people to be able to volunteer to work under the minimum rate, not be forced to).

"He said he had talked to people with mental health problems when he met recently with the charity Mind, and he said they agreed with his analysis."

Penny