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BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza

Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Dec 12 - 08:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 12 - 07:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 12 - 07:02 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Dec 12 - 05:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 12 - 03:00 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 05:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 03:30 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 12 - 03:23 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 03:14 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 03:05 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 12 - 02:20 PM
Stringsinger 17 Dec 12 - 12:01 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Dec 12 - 11:57 AM
GUEST 17 Dec 12 - 11:34 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 10:59 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Dec 12 - 09:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 12 - 09:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 12 - 09:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 12 - 09:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 07:19 AM
GUEST 17 Dec 12 - 06:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 06:17 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Dec 12 - 06:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 06:07 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Dec 12 - 06:07 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 05:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 12 - 05:52 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Dec 12 - 05:22 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 04:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 12 - 04:50 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Dec 12 - 04:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 12 - 04:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 12 - 03:59 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Dec 12 - 03:48 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 12 - 03:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 12 - 01:02 AM
Stringsinger 16 Dec 12 - 01:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 12 - 12:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Dec 12 - 10:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 12 - 04:20 AM
Stringsinger 15 Dec 12 - 09:20 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Dec 12 - 02:18 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Dec 12 - 01:51 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 12 - 12:45 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Dec 12 - 11:28 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 12 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 12 - 05:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Dec 12 - 02:38 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:08 AM

""Umpteen pages from Don attacking Israel's response to savage unrelenting terrorism, but not a word of criticism for the terrorists who cause it.
Do you still claim to be impartial Don?
""

Umpteen posts, maybe as much as half the posts on this forum, from Keith saying over and over again "Hamas evil" (True and I've never denied it), ""Israel squeaky clean and white as the driven snow, never done anything nasty, forced to destroy a neighbouring country, but feeding the poor souls out of the goodness of their little Israeli hearts""

And I'm the one showing partiality?.....I DON'T THINK SO!

And neither does the United Nations Team operating inside Gaza and seeing the day by day results.

And neither do 145 (minimum) ex and current Israeli soldiers, disgusted with the things they were ordered to do by their government.

And neither does B'Tselem, an Israeli group concerned about their government's record of human rights violations.

But Keith, as is his wont, ignores all evidence which conflicts with his hard wired PRO ISRAEL BIAS, and then has the immortal gall to accuse others of the bigotry in which he himself specialises.

Keith must really be a very clever man indeed.

He knows more than the United Nations, who have obviously misunderstood the reports of the team they have installed right at the sharp end, living under the threat of Israeli bombs and shells.

He knows more than the Israeli soldiers actually involved in hostile actions over a decade.

He knows more than an ISRAELI group investigating the Israeli government's effect on the human rights of Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank.

He knows so much more than all those intimately involved people, that he can dismiss everything they say out of hand.

What a genius! A legend in his own mind.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:09 AM

And Jim, I posted that list for you on 3rd December.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:02 AM

I said the Israelis promised an up-to date list - you said there was one - you lied and attempted to pass off out of date information.

The 2010 post-Cast Lead list I provided is the current list Jim.
I do not lie.
I would not make a liar of myself to gain a minor point on a Mudcat thread.
I can never understand why you do, or why you assume anyone else would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:55 AM

"Ma-in-Law."
A sexist hypocrite to boot.

.,,.

teehee; isn't poor old James-the-Pathetic getting desperate!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:00 AM

Umpteen pages from Don attacking Israel's response to savage unrelenting terrorism, but not a word of criticism for the terrorists who cause it.
Do you still claim to be impartial Don?

You think Israel should reduce its response.
It has been reducing it steadily for years, but the terrorist attacks get worse.

Destroying kids' health Jim?
Because there are cases of malnutrition as in all similar places?
Israel lets in food. The cause is poverty.
Of course restrictions weaken the economy.
You want to impose them on Syria and how you sneered when I expressed concern for the effects on the poor suffering people.

Hamas wants war with Israel. Israel does not want war but has to respond.

After the Marvi Marmara incident, UN pronounced the blockade legal.

All this nit picking nonsense has been gone over many times.

The holocaust was an unprecedented horror in all human history.
Millions died in unspeakable misery and suffering in industrialised extermination.
There is no shoah or holocaust inflicted on Gaza, is there?
If you want to justify that ludicrous, obscene claim, insulting to the memory of actual holocaust victims, please do so or shut up.

Likewise genocide on the thriving and robustly reproducing Gazans.

Likewise one single death from starvation in the last 50 years.

Like wise any food shortages in view of outright denials by Red Cross, no restrictions on food imports, and surplus food being exported by
the hundreds of tons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:10 PM

(Contd.)

""Restrictions on Imports and Exports
Key inputs are being restricted from entering through commercial channels, which inhibits recovery of the USD 268 million in total damages as a result of Operation 'Cast Lead'.20

In the first six months after Operation 'Cast Lead', almost no agricultural inputs were permitted into Gaza. Restricted inputs nowadays include livestock (chickens, cows etc), iron bars for animal shelters, feeders, water pipes, pumps and filters for irrigation networks. Construction materials like concrete and heavy equipment for rehabilitating agricultural roads are also needed. Goods coming through the tunnels from Egypt are sold at inflated prices and therefore inaccessible to the majority of Palestinians. Lack of regulation on these goods presents a risk in terms of quality and
safety, as uncontrolled imports of livestock and veterinary medicines raise fears of animal disease in Gaza and transboundary disease outbreaks in the region.

The Agriculture Sector in the Gaza Strip has the potential to export 2 300 tons of strawberries, 55 million carnation flowers, and 714 tons of cherry tomatoes per annum in addition to locally consumed products.21 There has been close to zero export activity due to restrictions since the blockade. Exceptions to these export restrictions during the last winter season presented little change with only 2% of strawberries and 25% of cut flowers of the total pre-blockade potential for export.22

61% prevalence of household food insecurity23

38.6% unemployment24

Fishing area and catches shrinking
Since January 2009, fishers' access to fishing grounds has been further restricted to 3 nautical miles (nm) from the shore. This has resulted in a depletion of catches and revenues.

In Gaza, the majority of profits from fishing come from sardines, however, schools of sardine pass beyond the 3 nm mark and sardine catches are down 72%.25

Adult fish are mostly found beyond the 3 nm limit and therefore fishing within the current zone rapidly depletes new generations of fish, with severe implications for fish life-cycles and therefore long-term fishing livelihoods. (The previous fishing zone was 6쳌-9 nm before 'Cast Lead', 12 nm from Bertini Commitments, and 20 nm under the Oslo Accords.)

Between 2008 and 2009, total catch decreased by 47%, and is insufficient to meet the demands of Gaza's fast-growing population.26 To fill the gap, traders are importing limited quantities of fresh and frozen fish from Israel and through tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border.27 There are also reports of fishers illegally crossing into Egyptian waters, either to fish or to buy from Egyptian fishers. Additionally, a small number of backyard aquaculture projects (fish farms) have been implemented by humanitarian agencies to protect livelihoods and increase the protein available to
Gaza's food-insecure population. However, such activities are a poor substitute for allowing Gaza's fishers to secure nutritious fresh fish to the Gaza population and their own traditional livelihoods, and the future of this vital sector is being dangerously undermined.

Quick facts:
·        Owing to Gaza's skilled workforce and suitable climate and soil, an immediate focus on the Agriculture Sector will provide a relatively low-cost and effective means of successful post-conflict rehabilitation.
·        Only 118 truckloads of strawberries and cut flowers exports have been permitted to exit Gaza since 10 December 2009.28 In the period before the blockade, an average of 70 truckloads left Gaza every day during strawberry season.
·        Since January 2009, Israeli naval forces have restricted the access of Palestinian fishing boats to three nm offshore; in practice, access is often restricted to as little as two nm, which results in dramatically reduced catch (i.e. by 47%) and consequently the opportunity of making any profit.
·        Prices for many food items, including locally-grown produce, have increased considerably since the blockade. The Consumer Price Index (CPI) for vegetables, for example, in the Gaza Strip increased by 12% compared to only 1% in West Bank.29

Water: scarce and polluted
Water resources in the Gaza Strip are critically insufficient, and with agriculture representing over 60% of water demand30, immediate improvements in both quantity and quality are vital. Farmers are forced to use salty and polluted water from agricultural wells for irrigation, which presents a risk to the population's health due to the resulting food quality degradation. As demand for agricultural water has risen, farmers have been forced to dig over 2,000 unlicensed wells31, which are putting excessive pressure on the coastal aquifer and increasing the salinisation of
ground water, and subsequently restricting agricultural productivity. Extensive construction of water infrastructure is needed for both agricultural and domestic use. Currently only 57% of water pumped into the network is utilised32, mainly due to leakages that demand major rehabilitation of the water network.

The Agriculture Sector suffers because sewage and seawater are contaminating the aquifer, which is harming agricultural productivity. Israel does not allow most building materials, such as metal and cement, into the Gaza Strip. These are essential elements for building water and wastewater infrastructure. Without them, the continued breakdown of sanitation facilities in Gaza is leading to untreated sewage reaching agricultural lands and sea. Although the Gaza Strip faces additional unique challenges, it also has the potential to provide a template for regional solutions to the water scarcity crisis by piloting alternative water models for water management in the region. Ongoing pilot studies based on the use of treated wastewater and desalination provide potential for solutions to the water constraints in Gaza and the wider region. Piloting such innovations cannot proceed under blockade.

Food Security in the Gaza Strip
Food security exists when all people, at all times, have physical, social and economic access to sufficient, safe and nutritious food which meets their dietary needs and food preferences for an active and healthy life. Food insecurity exists when people do not have adequate physical, social or economic access to food as defined above33 61% of people in the Gaza Strip are considered to be food insecure and are reliant on food assistance from humanitarian agencies for their health and well being. An additional 16.2% are considered vulnerable to food insecurity. Of those food insecure, 65% are children under 18 years.34 For these children, long-term food insecurity is linked to rising levels of acute malnutrition and stunted growth. In addition, health conditions such as watery diarrhea and iron deficiency anemia result from the ongoing lack of access to clean water and balanced diet. In February 2009, the level of anemia in babies (9쳌-12 months) was as high as 65.5%.35

The Agricultural Projects Information System (APIS): an agricultural response monitoring tool and resource site. www.apis.ps/
For technical information please contact: Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO)
Website: www.fao.org
West Bank and Gaza Strip Office | 25 Mount of Olives Street, Sheikh Jarrah, P.O. Box 22246 Tel: +972 (0)2 532 1950 F: +972 (0)2 540 0027
""

Comments?
Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:30 PM

(Contd.)

""International law
Restrictions imposed on the civilian population by the continuing blockade of the Gaza Strip amount to collective punishment, a violation of international humanitarian law.12 The blockade of Gaza also prevents or greatly hampers the exercise by the children, women and men living there of many human rights, including the right to food, the right to an adequate standard of living, the right to work, and the right to the highest attainable standard of health.

As the occupying power, Israel is obliged to ensure the free and unimpeded passage of humanitarian relief13 and must avoid taking measures which impede the full realization by the people of the Gaza Strip of their human rights.14

Protection of fishers
Fishing in the Gaza Strip currently presents a threat to people's lives as well as livelihoods. Fishers venturing past the imposed 3 nm fishing zone to support their livelihoods find themselves frequently subjected to arrests, seizing of boats, and shootings from the Israeli navy. Fishers are under intensive scrutiny by the IDF, which uses helicopters, and gunboats to monitor fishing activity.15

Since January 2009, 2 fishers have been killed and 12 injured by the almost daily shootings.16 Over 300 incidents of confiscation of fishing boats and equipment have been recorded since Operation 'Cast Lead'.17

From January to early April 2010 alone there have been 48 reported occurrences of IDF patrol boats opening fire on fishers.18

Since Operation 'Cast Lead', the number of incidents in the fishing zone has increased significantly, presenting a serious protection threat and contributing to the reduction in the number of fishers in the Gaza Strip from 10,000 in 2000 down to 3,500 today.

Case study
24 February 2010 -- Sami al-Qouqa, a 30쳌-year-old former fisherman from al-Shati refugee camp in northern Gaza Strip, lost his left hand when his fishing boat came under fire from an Israeli gunboat in 2007, in an incident documented by the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights.

"I was on my small fishing boat in Palestinian fishing waters when two Israeli warships approached me. The Israeli navy shouted at me: "Go back or we'll kill you!" Initially, I refused, so they began shooting at me. One of the gunboat's shells hit me and seriously wounded my left forearm and
hand," said al-Quoqa.

He was taken to al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City where doctors amputated his hand. He has since been unemployed and depends on UNRWA for food aid for his wife and two sons.

Fishers say ever-tightening restrictions on where they can fish and frequent attacks by Israeli gunboats are putting more and more of them out of business.

"Now, Israelis shoot all the time and without reason. The Israeli navy keeps confiscating fishing equipment and ripping up fishermen's nets" Muhamed Subuh al-Hissi, of the Palestinian Fishermen's Union in the Gaza Strip.19

Restricted basic agricultural inputs:

    Seeds and seedlings, Plastic piping
    Water pumps/filters/irrigation pipes
    Fishing nets, Engine spare parts
    Veterinary drugs
    Cement
""

(Contd.)

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:23 PM

"All this nit picking nonsense has been gone over many times."The "nitpicking" you refer to is the destroying of the health of children -
I said the Israelis promised an up-to date list - you said there was one - you lied and attempted to pass off out of date information.
You have lied and distorted your way though this thread - you are a sicko who has consistently supported the slaughter of civilians by an aggressively terrorist state
"Ma-in-Law."
A sexist hypocrite to boot.
Keith will have the last word on this thread as he has on all the other threads he has made a p;atform for his obnoxious opinions - want to check; try Muslim prejudice, Breivik any Irish thread......
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:14 PM

Farming without Land, Fishing without Water:
Gaza Agriculture Sector Struggles to Survive

With technical support from the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO)

Fact sheet

Livelihoods and lives of people living in the Gaza Strip have been devastated by over 1,000 days of near complete blockade. However, with the investment of simple inputs and increased access to land, the Agriculture Sector has the potential to make substantial improvements to the quality of life, food security and nutrition of an estimated 1.5 million Palestinian people.

Restricted Access to Agricultural Land
As of June 2009, a total of 46% of agricultural land in the Gaza Strip was assessed to be inaccessible or out of production1 owing to destruction of lands during 'Cast Lead' and inaccessible areas lying within the "security buffer zone".

Only a limited percentage of this land has been rehabilitated due to the blockade that restricts the import of materials and equipment for rehabilitation and access to damaged areas. Farmers in these areas are unable to cultivate and produce goods for consumption or sale, and herders, unable to provide sufficient natural food for their animals, must purchase animal feed at unaffordable prices.

With limited access to agricultural areas, local production has declined and farmers' livelihoods are increasingly precarious. Food prices have risen considerably since the blockade. Palestinians are less able to afford a healthy, diverse diet that could contribute to better nutrition and health.2

This factsheet was first compiled for the United Nations Humanitarian Country Team Advocacy event on the Gaza Strip's Agriculture Sector
May 25th 2010

The Buffer Zone ("no-go" area)
The area inside the Buffer Zone along the northern and eastern borders with Israel contains nearly a third (29%) of the Gaza Strip's arable land, and is inaccessible to farmers and herders.3

The width of the Buffer Zone is 0.5쳌-1km along the eastern border and 1.8쳌-2km along the northern border.4

The Buffer Zone contains rain-fed crops including wheat, barley, beans and various vegetables, as well as olives, almonds and citrus trees. Most of the Gaza Strip's animal production is concentrated in the zone, which also contains important infrastructure such as wells and roads.

A recent Save the Children UK questionnaire found that 50% of respondents who lived in the buffer zone areas reported losing their sources of livelihood since 2000 compared with 33% of the general Gaza population. Furthermore, 73% of households near the buffer zone live below the poverty line, compared with 42% of the general population in Gaza.5

Livelihoods: dramatic downturn
Fewer people are able to sustain their source of livelihoods from agriculture.

The percentage of labour force working in agriculture is 7.4 (4th quarter of 2009), which is down from 12.7% (2nd quarter of 2007).6 Southern governorates show a worsening trend: in Q2 2007, agriculture and fishing accounted for 15.3% of jobs in Deir Al-Balah, 20.0% in Rafah, and 24.0% in Khan Younis. By 3rd quarter 2009, these figures had fallen to 7.4%, 6.2% and 7.2% respectively.7

People are scraping by on basics and rely on humanitarian aid to fill the gaps. An average household spends 56 cents of every US dollar on food. The average food insecure household has between 6 to 9 people relying on one breadwinner.8

A rapid recovery of the sector will reinstate the local population's former access to fresh foods, including fruit and vegetables, eggs, fresh meat and fish, which humanitarian agencies traditionally do not offer through the aid pipeline.

Approximately 3% of the total female labour force in the Gaza Strip works in the Fishing Agriculture Sector. 9 Since the blockade, women have suffered particularly from the deterioration of the sector in their role as household managers and primary caregivers in the family.

Environment
Operation 'Cast Lead' caused major destruction of agricultural areas; including damage to 17% of cultivated land, due to bulldozing and chemical contamination.10

Environmental experts predict a subsequent change in agricultural biodiversity (the variation of life forms within an ecosystem) that will disrupt the farming economy in the long-term.

Farmers will have to adjust to and absorb the costs of environmental disruption in addition to adopting already inadequate coping strategies. Long-term damage to soil, due to uncontrolled sewage dumping, salination, and other contamination, has led to a degraded ability to produce.
Between 50 and 80 million litres of untreated and partially-treated waste water has been dumped every day into the sea since January 2008, owing largely to severely compromised treatment capacity in the Gaza Strip.11 This raw sewage is harming marine life and contaminating fish
for human consumption all along the coast. (Contd.)

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:05 PM

To save you the trouble of locating it, which you most likely wouldn't bother to do:-

""Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 06:17 AM

The following from the United Nations Country Team in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, August 2012:-

""Gaza is an urban economy, heavily reliant on intensive trade, communication and movement of people. The area has been essentially isolated since 2005, meaning that, in the longer term, its economy is fundamentally unviable under present circumstances. Gaza is currently kept alive through external funding and the illegal tunnel economy.

The people of Gaza remain worse off than they were in the 1990s, despite increases in real gross domestic product (GDP) per capita over the past three years. Unemployment is high and affects women and youth in particular. Gaza's GDP per capita is expected to grow only modestly in the coming years, making it ever more difficult for Gazans to secure a decent living.1 The challenges will only become more acute, particularly if the current political status quo continues. Even if the political situation were to improve dramatically over the next years, the issues identified in this study would still need to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

While recognizing recent progress, demographic pressure and the deterioration of Gazan infrastructure demand durable and broad-based economic growth based on trade of goods and services. It will be essential to ensure the provision of basic infrastructure (particularly water/sanitation and electricity) and improved social services (particularly health and education). As a heavily urbanized environment with little room for further growth, Gaza needs to be open and accessible to the world. The viability of a future Palestinian state depends on a proper connection between the West Bank and Gaza, providing access to the Mediterranean for the entire occupied Palestinian territory.

This document focuses on a range of the most important issues affecting the daily lives of the people in Gaza, which will only intensify in the
coming years – even more so should the political situation (the divide between Gaza and the West Bank, the occupation and closure, and continued violent conflict) not improve. These challenges are described in the six-monthly UN report to the Ad hoc Liaison Committee, and more routinely in the UN's monthly briefing to the Security Council. In short, an end to the blockade of the Gaza Strip in the context of Security Council resolution 1860,2 and Gaza's recovery and long-term economic development remain fundamental objectives of the United Nations.""
""

The difference between the 1990s and 2012 is largely the result of Israel's deliberate policy of occupation and expansion.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM

Nothing to say on the comments of the UN Team in Gaza (see my post of 6.17 AM)?

Good old Keith! If you ignore everything that shows the detrimental effects of Israeli control, you can stay in your warm little cocoon of injured righteousness and pretend it doesn't exist.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 02:20 PM

Why accuse me of "porkies" Jim?
I do not lie.
Your piece WAS out of date because the current, more lenient list that I just posted came after it.

All this nit picking nonsense has been gone over many times.
There is no shoah or holocaust inflicted on Gaza, is there?
If you want to justify that ludicrous, obscene claim, insulting to the memory of actual holocaust victims, please do so or shut up.

Likewise genocide on the thriving and robustly reproducing Gazans.

Likewise any starvation in the last 50 years.

Like wise any food shortages in view of outright denials by Red Cross, no restrictions on food imports, and surplus food being exported by hundreds of tons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 12:01 PM

Stevie Wonder had the good sense to cancel his concert before the Israeli Defense Force
event, citing the UN resolution adopting statehood for Palestine.

Good for Stevie


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 11:57 AM

Welcome to the last word as ever, Ma-in-Law.

Enjoy


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 11:34 AM

Keith
2 years old - about as old as the one of mine you rejected as being "out of date"
Link to an up-to-date one as promised please - otherwise, as I said, one doesn't exist and you've been caught in yet another porkie.
"Sorry Jim. You have degenerated into the most frightful bore."
And you have degenerated into an extremely transparent hypocrite
I didn't think for one minute that you would give a straight answer, but would resort to what you keep accusing the rest of us of doing
Ah well - stick to your job in hand - that of helping rabid dogs over stiles.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 10:59 AM

""Yes they built it when they were still in Gaza, but the Egyptian side was always manned and controlled by Egyptians as anyone but you would think obvious.""

Do you understand the phrase "at the behest of". That, my linguistically challenged friend, covers the fence being rebuilt by Israel's friend, Egypt.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:40 AM

Sorry Jim. You have degenerated into the most frightful bore. I just can't be bothered with any sort of attempt at communication with you any more. Just climb down off my back, if you wouldn't too much mind; and I will do as much for you.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:23 AM

That is the major reason why I am not accepting Keith's assertions that Israel is trucking in sufficient for Gaza to export food.
Israel applies no restriction on food.
They can import through Israel as much as they want.

The export of tons of date bars by a UN food agency was just mentioned as an indication of the plentiful food.
Gaza exports hundreds of tons of agricultural produce.
I listed some.

Israel does not maintain or control the crossing between Gaza and Egypt.
How could it.
Yes they built it when they were still in Gaza, but the Egyptian side was always manned and controlled by Egyptians as anyone but you would think obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:16 AM

And your evidence for the existence of undamaged buildings in significantly greater number than damaged ones is...............NON EXISTENT!
What evidence do you want Don.
The place is full of journalists.
There is no coverage of any problem of homelessness or any indication of any serious problem.

If they did not fire rockets there would be no damaged buildings at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:09 AM

Jim, here is the current list again.
Post-June 2010
On June 17, 2010, the Israel cabinet agreed to ease the restrictions on items permitted into the Gaza strip.
List no. 1: Items Subject to Specific Permission
1. Arms and Munitions: forbidden transfer under all circumstances across Israel's frontiers without specific permits - as defined in the Control of Exports Security Order (Arms and Munitions) 5768-2008, and in the Control of Exports Security Order (Missile Equipment) 5768-2008.
2. Dual Use goods and items: liable to be used, side by side with their civilian purposes, for the development, production, installation or enhancement of military capabilities and terrorist capacities. This list comprises:
Items listed under the Wassenaar Arrangement: As specified in the updated (2008) "Wassenaar Arrangement on Export Controls for Arms and Dual Use Goods and Technologies - List of Dual Use Goods and Technologies and Munitions List."
Items whose entry into the PA Areas is controlled based on Israeli legislation: i.e. materials and equipment liable to be used for terror attacks and technology that could be used by terrorists - as defined in the Control of Exports Security Order (Controlled Dual Use Equipment Transferred to the PA Areas) 5768-2008 and in Orders of the OC Central Command.
These lists include, in detail, a range of chemicals used in the production of explosives (including certain fertilizers); specific types of metal profiles; ball bearings; lathes and their parts; composite materials; hunting knives and machetes; optical equipment, such as lasers and night vision goggles; certain navigation aides; diving equipment; parachutes, gliders and other nonmotorized airborne vehicles; flares and fireworks; avionics and flight control equipment; missile related computer technologies; rock drills and equipment drawing water from excavated sites. Items not necessarily included in the lists above but whose entry into Gaza is controlled, as detailed below:
i. Items and chemicals which could be used in the production of high trajectory weapons (rockets and mortars) by Hamas and other terror groups in Gaza - Fertilizers or other mixtures - specifically containing KCl at more than 5%; Epoxy and Vinyl Ester resins; Hardeners for Epoxy Resins containing Amides or Amines; Accelerators for Vinyl Esters; HTPB; Water purification solutions at concentrations higher than 11%.
ii. Items used as raw materials for improving protection for terror activists - Fibers or woven fabrics containing Carbon or Glass variants.
iii. Vessels.

List No. 2: Construction Items and Materials to be Allowed Entry into Gaza only for PA-authorized Projects Implemented by the International Community
Israel will only permit their entry into Gaza to facilitate construction projects in Gaza which have been authorized by the PA and implemented and monitored by the international community. The often cited reason is that such materials could be used by Hamas for military purposes (building bunkers, fortifying positions and digging tunnels)
This list includes:
Portland cement and lime (in bulk, bags or barrels)
Natural and Quarry aggregates and all varieties of gravel
Ready concrete
Precast concrete elements and products
Steel elements and/or construction products
Iron for foundations and columns, at any diameter (including wielded steel nets)
Steel cables of any width
Forms for construction elements (plastics or galvanized iron)
Industrialized forms for casting concrete
Plastic or composite beams more than 4 mm thick
Thermal isolation materials and products
Blocs (at any width) - Concrete; Silicate; Ytong or its equivalent; or gypsum
Materials and products for sealing structures
Asphalt and its components (Bitumen, emulsion) in aggregate or packaged
Steel elements or framing products for construction
Cast concrete elements and products for drainage over 1 m in diameter
Precast units and sea-borne containers
Vehicles, excluding private cars and including 4X4 vehicles and other categories of motor vehicles liable to be used in terror activities
Lumber beams and boards more than 2 cm thick, (liable to be used in "offensive" tunneling aimed at penetrating Israeli territory), unless incorporated in finished products
Specific procedures, on a case by case basis, will be established so as to permit the transfer of such lumber for other purposes in Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 07:19 AM

""But I must point out that, be that as it may re the rest of your last post; you have not answered my question as to how the rockets are getting in. They must be getting in somehow. How?""

I'm rather tired of answering that question Mike, but for the third time, they are smuggled in through the tunnels, broken down into components.

As to getting food and household goods in the same way, I've answered that too.

It is a difficult, but viable, task to smuggle 10,000 rockets over ten years (about three a day) in bits.

To bring in enough food to make the slightest difference to a population of 1.7 million is a whole different ball game.

That is the major reason why I am not accepting Keith's assertions that Israel is trucking in sufficient for Gaza to export food.

What he calls exporting food boils down to one factory supplying date bars to the West Bank schools (with the assistance of a charity because Gaza is allowed no direct access to that area), wich can hardly be fairly called exporting (the West Baank being part of Palestine) and will make zero difference to the economic situation in Gaza, where the majority couldn't afford to buy those date bars if they wanted to.

The current Israeli government, through their so-called "defence" force is in de facto control of the lives of every Gaza resident, whatever objections Keith may have to the idea.

He who controls the supply of food, water and power is the one who rules a country by virtue of his ability to withdraw all three.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 06:56 AM

"I actually produced the list Jim, and you responded."
No you didn't - you claimed a current one existed but didn't produce it - no current list exists
We understand Keith's points well Mike
No shortages, no massacres, no blockade on building material, medicines, no hardship caused by the Israelis, no slaughter of civilians no persecution......
We (and most of the civilised world) believe it to be a pile of lying shit
You really have gone over to the Dark Side - and in failing to admit it you have proved yourself a hypocrite
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 06:17 AM

The following from the United Nations Country Team in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, August 2012:-

""Gaza is an urban economy, heavily reliant on intensive trade, communication and movement of people. The area has been essentially isolated since 2005, meaning that, in the longer term, its economy is fundamentally unviable under present circumstances. Gaza is currently kept alive through external funding and the illegal tunnel economy.

The people of Gaza remain worse off than they were in the 1990s, despite increases in real gross domestic product (GDP) per capita over the past three years. Unemployment is high and affects women and youth in particular. Gaza's GDP per capita is expected to grow only modestly in the coming years, making it ever more difficult for Gazans to secure a decent living.1 The challenges will only become more acute, particularly if the current political status quo continues. Even if the political situation were to improve dramatically over the next years, the issues identified in this study would still need to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

While recognizing recent progress, demographic pressure and the deterioration of Gazan infrastructure demand durable and broad-based economic growth based on trade of goods and services. It will be essential to ensure the provision of basic infrastructure (particularly water/sanitation and electricity) and improved social services (particularly health and education). As a heavily urbanized environment with little room for further growth, Gaza needs to be open and accessible to the world. The viability of a future Palestinian state depends on a proper connection between the West Bank and Gaza, providing access to the Mediterranean for the entire occupied Palestinian territory.

This document focuses on a range of the most important issues affecting the daily lives of the people in Gaza, which will only intensify in the
coming years – even more so should the political situation (the divide between Gaza and the West Bank, the occupation and closure, and continued violent conflict) not improve. These challenges are described in the six-monthly UN report to the Ad hoc Liaison Committee, and more routinely in the UN's monthly briefing to the Security Council. In short, an end to the blockade of the Gaza Strip in the context of Security Council resolution 1860,2 and Gaza's recovery and long-term economic development remain fundamental objectives of the United Nations.
""

The difference between the 1990s and 2012 is largely the result of Israel's deliberate policy of occupation and expansion.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 06:09 AM

... and however it is, why can't that food & household stuff get in the same way?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 06:07 AM

""It is a fact about the pictures, because pictures of undamaged buildings are not news.""

And your evidence for the existence of undamaged buildings in significantly greater number than damaged ones is...............NON EXISTENT!

Just another Keith A biased opinion.

If there were a significant number, Israeli propaganda would surely be making capital out of it!

Keith, 23% increase on not much is still not much. 29% unemployed is however a real figure, which shows how little real growth you are busy exaggerating.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 06:07 AM

OK Don. I had not intended to argue further on this thread, for reasons mentioned above regarding my disgust with the conduct of Israeli trrops during searches as reported by some of their own colleagues ~~

But I must point out that, be that as it may re the rest of your last post; you have not answered my question as to how the rockets are getting in. They must be getting in somehow. How?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:53 AM

I'm open to correction on this Mike, but the search I did on "Gaza strip fence" states that it was built by the Israelis and therefore not open to removal by Egypt, and bear in mind the clear implication of my last post, that it took the blowing up of the fence and a mass movement to overcome the restrictions on passage normally in force, which were restored when the fence was repaired, presumably by, or at the behest of Israel.

If Egypt were a friend of Gaza, surely no restriction would apply to movement other than weapons, which is signally not the case.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:52 AM

Even if it were true that Israel delivers enough for 1.7 million mouths (and there is no indication that it is), if the population, due to Israeli action, hasn't the means to buy it that's hardly a defence of those actions.
They can import as much food as they like without restriction.
Gaza and Egypt have always had poverty which is worse in Gaza because Hamas has dragged them into a never ending war.

FACT! Israel has bombed Gaza back to mediaeval status and beyond.Every picture that comes out of Gazqa is a picture of smashed dwellings, factories and infrastructure
It is a fact about the pictures, because pictures of undamaged buildings are not news.
Gaza is enjoying economic growth levels that we can only dream of.
In 2011 the Gaza Strip enjoyed a 27% growth rate compared to 2010. This growth contributed to a rise of about 23% in the per capita GDP. The growth is mainly the result of a significant acceleration in building activity in the Gaza Strip, due to Israel's easing the restrictions on bringing in building materials (for international projects under the supervision of the PA and the international community) and to the smuggling of building supplies via the tunnels. In the first quarter of 2012, the Gaza Strip showed 6% growth compared to the first quarter of the previous year.

The unemployment rate in 2011 dropped to 29% (the lowest in a decade), compared to 37.8% in 2010.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:22 AM

I wasn't talking about rockets, Don; but about the food & household items you mention. & the Egyptians could at any time have removed that barrier built across their border

But the rockets are nevertheless getting in somehow; & if not via Egypt [maybe as suggested above thru some clandestine tunnelling], then how?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 04:59 AM

""where imports via Egypt are perfectly practicable [or if not, it is the Egyptians not the Israelis who are preventing them].""

Slightly disingenuous Mike!

It is a fact that Egypt has been very careful about rocking the boat, since the accord established between that country and Israel.

I don't know what may be changing under the new Egyptian government, but the previous one was NO friend to Gaza. It was only the blowing up of a considerable length of that Israeli built barrier which allowed a large number of Gazans into Egypt, where they bought mainly food and household goods (a matter of public record), not rockets.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 04:50 AM

""I acknowledge malnutrition.
It is found everywhere and is even worse in parts of Egypt.
Poverty not Israel is to blame.
""

Poverty indeed, caused by Israel bombing the means of independent industry and destroying olive groves and restricting fishing.

""There is no shortage of food in Gaza, Israel does not restrict its import,""

Even if it were true that Israel delivers enough for 1.7 million mouths (and there is no indication that it is), if the population, due to Israeli action, hasn't the means to buy it that's hardly a defence of those actions.

FACT! Israel has bombed Gaza back to mediaeval status and beyond.

Every picture that comes out of Gazqa is a picture of smashed dwellings, factories and infrastructure.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 04:38 AM

... and what 'atrocities', in this instance, do you perceive me as defending, Jim? It was, I admit, plenty of other atrocities, from unauthorised settlements to the olive-grove destruction onwards, that drove me to the present position vis-à-vis Israel which you admit sharing with me. But it is surely my right to question whether any such are present in this Gaza situation, where imports via Egypt are perfectly practicable [or if not, it is the Egyptians not the Israelis who are preventing them]. Name an 'atrocity', please, that I have 'defended' K's 'defence' of.

& I reiterate ~~Your jokes about Fairy Godmothers and ventriloquism and so on might have been mildly amusing some time in the last millennium; but they really are wearing a bit thin. Time to give them a rest, maybe, before we all expire from boredom?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 04:19 AM

Don, 13Dec
", and we've all seen the list of forbidden imports"

Jim, 24th Nov
"Also on their list are"

Me, same day
the Israelis are still forbidding essential agricultural material which prevents Palestinians from growing their own food to feed themselves and make a living.
There is another one! (lie)

Also on their list are building materials which are necessary to rebuild the homes destroyed by indiscriminate Israeli attacks on built-up areas.
Not true Jim.
Building materials are allowed in under aid agency supervision.(or PLA supervision)
It is just not given to Hamas to make bomb proof missile stores with.
Malnutrition due to food shortages, directly identified to the blockade by the UN and Amnesty, is present in 10% of Palestinian children.
AND ANOTHER ONE! (lie)
Remember that I showed aid agencies EXPORTING SURPLUS FOOD from Gaza by the truckload.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:59 AM

He has lied stupidly "there is a list of banned goods" - can't just put his hands on it at the moment maybe?
I actually produced the list Jim, and you responded.
Food and medicine was not on it.
How short your memory is.

Save the Children report on malunitrition.

I acknowledge malnutrition.
It is found everywhere and is even worse in parts of Egypt.
Poverty not Israel is to blame.

defending the indefensible with his lies and distortions - massacres - didn't happen,
I have denied no massacre.
Why must you lie to make a case Jim?

food deprivation up to the point of starvation ruining childrens' lives
There is no shortage of food in Gaza, Israel does not restrict its import, there has never been starvation.
You have to lie to make a case because you have none.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:48 AM

Does it not occur to you, Jim, that my position is that you [individually & collectively] are just failing to apprehend Keith's points ~~ are misinterpreting his position, in other words; whereas I have got them better in perspective than you?

I mean, just as a maybe...?

And quote back to me a few of my supercilious 'bon mots', if you would be so kind. I honestly cannot relate this particular put-down to anything I remember posting.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:35 AM

"Re hypocrisy, now."
Seems to be the case Mike - on the one hand you claim to be distressed at what Israel had become, on the other you choose to lend your support to Keith's continuing toxic bile
He has turned this into another of his epics, defending the indefensible with his lies and distortions - massacres - didn't happen, food deprivation up to the point of starvation ruining childrens' lives, anti Semitic inventions - the the deliberate targetting of family homes - permissable, even desirable as long as a Hamas fighter might be living in the same block - chemical weapons burning the faces of children, harmless as sparklers......
He has twisted and distorted, or has totaly ignored the again and again proven and presented facts to make his case and you have always been there to watch his back when he gets into trouble.
He has lied stupidly "there is a list of banned goods" - can't just put his hands on it at the moment maybe? Save the Children report on malunitrition - inventions or stupidly inaccurate research - he hasn't bothered to explain which.
And you have always been there with your supercilious 'bon mots' to put those who find Keith's filth indigestable in our places.
Keith is on his own here, apart from his trusty digger-out-of-the shit. Others have defended Israels politics, but nobody has attempted to defend the atrocities apart from him - with a little help from his friend
I fully empathise with your own situation regarding Israel, have experienced some of those reservations myself; I find your defence of atrocities via Keith detestable (wonder if anybody else remembers Peter Brough and Archie Andrews)
You used to be better than that.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 01:02 AM

The facts I denied were not facts.
They were not true and I proved that with actual facts.
In reply to your last post I asked for one example of an unsubstatiated fact of mine, but there are none Stringsinger.
That also was a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:58 PM

Actually, the denial of the facts shows exactly why this thread is important. There is no proof possible to allay Keith's prejudice which is not based on reason. The reason he would like to dismiss this conversation has to do with one-sided denial and not an investigative approach to a difficult subject.

I have offered proof by citing many different comments from varied sources and nothing will be enough for one who is entrenched in their thinking.

Still, I hope others will read what I've posted and consider the harm that Israel is causing on the international stage, and by this I mean specifically the intractable Netanyahu
oppressive regime.

Since there is no rational dialogue that can take place with the obstinate views of someone who has no interest in investigation, I will talk to those with more reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 12:44 PM

"Only a FOOL....."
Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM

Keith, you persist in direct conflict with many Israeli sources in maintaining that Israel has done and is doing no wrong.

Not true Don.
Only a full would maintain such a nonsense about any country.
I do maintain as an absolute established fact that there is no shoah or holocaust inflicted on Gaza.
There is no starvation in Gaza.
There is no food shortage in Gaza.
There is no genocide in Gaza.
There is an extraordinarily rapid increase in the population of Gaza, one of the very greatest in the whole world.
Let this be the end of a grotesque thread that should never have been started.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:12 AM

Keith, you persist in direct conflict with many Israeli sources in maintaining that Israel has done and is doing no wrong.

Nothing will ever convince you that this stance is untenable. There isn't a country on Earth which can claim utter rectitude in all its dealings, and Israel is no exception.

The way in which you refuse any evidence which conflicts with your fixed determination to win this argument is the very definition of bigotry, and it isn't the first example of your hostility to muslims.

There is simply no point in any longer pretending that you are engaged in discussion.

You have made it perfectly clear who and what you are.

You said let the thread die. Well, not just because you want the last word mate!.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 04:20 AM

Every statement you have made is not credible.

Not to you, because they contradict your prejudice.
Your prejudiced viewpoint is false, not my factual statements.

many unsubstantiated declarative statements

Really Stringsinger?
I say I have not made one single unsubstantiated statement.
Prove me wrong.
Produce one.

Otherwise, let your grotesque thread founded on obscene lies die its death.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:20 PM

Keith, the lies are yours. Your facts are skewed and enveloped in blind propaganda.
Every statement you have made is not credible. The scenario that you paint for the Israeli occupation is cloud cuckooland, an alternative world to reality.

I understand a real discussion but that's not what you have offered, instead many unsubstantiated declarative statements that would not hold up in a court of international law predominate your discourse.

Israel is appropriating land by building on Palestinian soil and this expansion is
unjustified. It's a form of geopolitical genocide.

There are undernourished children in Palestinian territory that are being starved
by Israel.

A real discussion would point out the merits and demerits of a situation. For example, Hamas is wrong when it resorts to violence to solve its problems. But this can be seen as a reaction to Zionism encroaching on another culture. This has the dimensions of a religious war and both Israel and Palestine have forms of theocracy.

Unfortunately, the religious aspect of Zionism (for Jews only) and the reaction of Islamic jihad make it difficult to sort out, and like the kids on the schoolyard, "he started it", the action reaction is a snowball out of control.

I'm not saying that Hamas is not culpable but the way Israel deals with the problem will create enmity for years to come. There is no justification for the continuing violence on either side as a solution to this problem.

Israel has forfeited its security by doubling down on violence and Hamas will invariably react in the only way it can.

All the weaponry in the world will not pull Israel out of a war in perpetuity.
The occupation of punishment will never satisfy the respect of the rest of the world.
This is very much in evidence at the UN and other countries as well who do not support Israel's occupation.

Fortunately, there are Jews in Israel who decry the monstrous Netanyahu land grabs and punishing violence, and as a result I will not condemn all Jews as warlike.
There are those of Jewish heritage, who maybe don't practice fundamentalist Judaism, but recognize the necessity of boycott, disinvestment and sanction of Israel's Netanyahu policies. There are those like Naomi Klein, Noam Chomsky, Goldstone and Finkelstein. There are also rabbis throughout the world who are disdainful of Zionism, particularly now that it has become so egregious.

The denial and blind support of Israel only attests to the fact that there can be no reasonable dialogue on this issue that will culminate in a peaceful solution.

Doubling down is not the answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:18 PM

Re hypocrisy, now. Hmmm ~~ well. Ambivalence is not the same as hypocrisy. You were quite understanding, Jim ['empathy' was a word we both employed IIRC] a while back when I tried to express the effect of the present ways of the now-loathsome place on one who had grown up surrounded by the influences which shaped my youth. Can't remember if it was way back on this thread or on the other one which, rather confusingly, ran alongside it for a while, about 'arseholes' [can't quite remember where that particular anatomical featutre entered the argument]; but I well recall the occasion; and so, I imagine, will you.

But it doesn't seem to have lasted. Old ma-in-law will break out when an opportunity arises, it would seem.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:51 PM

Good one 2U2, Ma-in-Law...


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:45 PM

Maybe Mike - but I'm not a hypocrite who hasn't the guts to express his own opinion, but only puts in an appearance when his mate digs himself into the klarts.
Have a good one!
Jim Carroll
By the way - I'll be very surprised if Keith doesn't return for the last word, as is his wont - probably out singing about peace an goodwill to all men


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:28 AM

Well then, why did you, Jim? - Talk about it, I mean? Keith suggested letting it go. But you had to have the last word*, using an aggressively sarcastic tone and a term of obloquy of the sort he sedulously avoids.

And then you have the gall to call him obsessive!.

Honestly, Jim ~~ I really have done my best to come to terms with you, and accept the olive-branch you offered a bit back. But you really are something else, aren't you!

Sorry.

~M~

*Call me a fairy godmother. You come on like the old music-hall sterotype of the mother-in-law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:21 AM

"Let this be the end of a grotesque thread that should never have been started."
Yeah - let's not talk about it - it upsets the horses
Obsessive prat
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 05:39 AM

There we have it.
Even with the added inducement of post 600, you could not substantiate your false accusations.
Everything I have claimed has been supported by facts.

Jim, you called for a total blockade on the people of Syria because you do not like their government, but when Israel applied substantially more lenient restrictions on Gaza, whose government makes war on them, you call it terrorism.
You are indeed a silly old hypocrite Jim.
You hate Israel not for what they do but for what they are.

I have substantiated all these statements, and if one of you silly boys denies it again I will re-post all the evidence to rub your silly noses in it.
There is no shoah or holocaust against Gaza.
There is no starvation in Gaza.
There is no food shortage in Gaza.
There is no genocide in Gaza.
There is an extraordinarily rapid increase in the population of Gaza, one of the very greatest in the whole world.
Let this be the end of a grotesque thread that should never have been started.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:38 PM

Don, when people resort to abuse I know that they have no reply to me.
I really do not mind.
I asked for examples of naive, bigoted and downright dishonest.
I think there are none, so just one of each will suffice to prove me wrong.

Stringsinger, you said "No Keith, Israel was not attacked first. That is a lie."
In fact, Israel was attacked by the Arab armies the day after it was created, and I do not lie.
You calling me ill informed will give anyone following this a good chuckle.
Thanks.


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