BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 01:55 PM

"""Nasty names" like muppet or numpty or silly Don?
Even "knob" is more comic than nasty.""

Funny to him who is nasty enough to deliver them, but I recall you being much less amused at being on the receiving end.

Pejoratives say a lot more about the strength of your argument than they do about the target!

And a great deal more about your personality too, such as it is.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 01:10 PM

No, nasty names are ad hominem and betray a lack of objective reasoning include "knob",
"muppet" and "numpty".

Keith, you are ill-informed and filled with ridiculous propaganda. If you retrace this thread, you will find that I didn't call you a liar. You probably believe the nonsense you spout.
But what you advocate are lies which you probably believe.

Here's more proof of the bully that is Israel.

Teen killed

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 09:47 AM

I challenge those 3 accusations Don.
Perhaps you could give an example of each.
At least you seem to agree with my assessment of Stringsinger.

"Nasty names" like muppet or numpty or silly Don?
Even "knob" is more comic than nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 09:39 AM

And yours, Keith, swing wildly between naive, biigotted and downright dishonest.

Examine your own conscience before calling the rest of us nasty names and casting doubt on our posts.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:55 AM

Stringsinger, your "contributions" to this thread have been ill informed and ludicrous.
You should pause for reflection before, in your ignorance, you accuse someone of lying on a public forum.
You should think before you accuse a nation of perpetrating a genocide.
The whole premise of your thread is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 03:59 PM

The 1948 Arab–Israeli War or the First Arab-Israeli War was fought between the State of Israel and a military coalition of Arab states and Palestinian Arab forces. This war was the second stage of the 1948 Palestine war, known in Arabic as al-Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, "The Catastrophe") and in Hebrew as the Milkhemet Ha'atzma'ut (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות, "War of Independence") or Milkhemet Hashikhrur (Hebrew: מלחמת השחרור "War of Liberation").

The war was preceded by a period of civil war in the territory of the Mandatory Palestine between Jewish Yishuv forces and Palestinian Arab forces in response to the UN Partition Plan. An alliance of Arab states intervened on the Palestinian side, turning the civil war into a war between sovereign states.[19

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:56 AM

No Keith, Israel was not attacked first. That is a lie. The Palestinian land was appropriated by Zionism and in the early settling, the Zionists were benign in their
dealings with Palestinians but this changed and sparked the wars.

What you are saying is mis and disinformation which shows your bias on this issue,
not the objectivity that you claim.

Israel doesn't spare innocent Palestinian children, women and men. They kill them with their bombs.

I will not argue ad hominem with you but I maintain that your information is faulty and subject to an attitude of denial.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 02:38 AM

When Jim can not defend his position, he abandons debate and goes for ad hominem personal attack.
you are a bigoted defender of war crimes and atrocities
Does anyone believe anyone on Mudcat would do that?
Of course not.
It is that nasty old lie again.
your continued defence of terrorist aggression
Don't be silly Jim.
You make yourself ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 10:11 AM

No Jim.
Israel was attacked first and the attacks have never ceased.

Hamas began attacking Israel from the day of its founding, that being its only reason to exist.
It took control of Gaza and took Gaza to war with Israel.
Imposing sanctions is what ANY nation would do.
You advocate just such sanctions on the suffering Syrians!

Terrorism is about killing civilians.
Israel tries to spare civilians.
Hamas tries to kill as many as it can.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 08:33 AM

"Your piece was 2 weeks short of 3 years old."
Past behaviour acceptable then You have the up to date situation attributed directly to the blockade - the consequences of that past behaviour
"Any country has the right to blockade completely a neighbouring state that goes to war against them."
Israel started its slaughter while the British troops were leaving, it has continued that aggression
The rockets started 20 years after the Israelis attempted to interfere with the Palestinian economy - they were the aggressors 2 decades before the Palestinian attacks
Clarification:
I have long been of the opinion that it is a waste of time arguing with you - you are a bigoted defender of war crimes and atrocities, and you will remain one.
However, your continued defence of terrorist aggression give us n excellent opportunity to expose people like yourself, closet defenders of the same, and continuing Israeli terrorism - thanks for that if nothing else
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 07:54 AM

Complete turnaround Don?
What do you mean?
There are no restrictions on food and have not been for nearly three years.
Even before that, Israel ensured that enough food got in for the militants to murder their neighbours in well fed comfort.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 07:50 AM

Which presumes they have a right to have restricted them in the first place: the fact that they have done so makes them a terrorist state.

Your piece was 2 weeks short of 3 years old.
Any country has the right to blockade completely a neighbouring state that goes to war against them.
Israel generously did not.
It ALWAYS allowed in sufficient food, even as the missiles flew in at them.
More cheers for Israel.

The restrictions were because Hamas chose to go to war.
Why expect kindness in return.
Celebrate that kindness actually was shown.
Deplore that every extra act of kindness brought more missiles in return.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 07:23 AM

Any shortfall is covered because unlimited imports are allowed.
""This is from the website you keep on about Don.
Small cheere for Israel Don?

Access eased for Gaza farmers and fisherman
Gaza fishermen's port.
Media reports state that in the ceasefire negotiations to end Operation Pillar of Defense, Israel and Hamas reached understandings that include the easing of restrictions on the movement of farmers and fishermen in the Gaza Strip. Among other things, it was agreed that the Israeli military would permit Gaza farmers to cultivate plots located up to 100 meters from the Israel-Gaza perimeter fence. This is a change from the official Israeli prohibition of recent years which forbade any approach closer than 300 meters from the fence. In addition, Gaza fishermen may now fish up to six nautical miles (approximately 11 km) from the Gaza coast, compared with the 3-mile limit imposed prior to Operation Pillar of Defense.""

Thank you Keith for that complete turnaround.

So it would seem that your consistent claims that Israel had not been imposing restrictions are now shown to have been LIES, by the easing of those restrictions, not as a matter of compassion, but in response to growing worldwide criticism of Israel's actions.

However, the upside is that Israel and Hamas are apparently talking at last. That at least is the start of what must eventually happen if there is ever to be peace.

However, Israel is still in de facto control of Gaza by reason of their ability to cut off power, food and water at any time.

That simply cannot continue. Nobody on Earth would, or should, be willing to live with the constant presence of a Damoclean Sword overhead.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 07:08 AM

How about a more up to date report
Maybe 'Save the Children' are "Antisemitic" - you can't trust anybody nowadays
"As of June 2012, the blockade of Gaza will be five years old. This report shows that the extensive restrictions placed on the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza continues to have a real and negative impact on the lives and health of Gaza's children. The blockade has been the single greatest contributor to endemic and long-lasting household poverty in Gaza.' This has meant that families are unable to buy nutritious food and are less able to produce nutritious food themselves.2"
http://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/Gaza%20Health%20Report%20FINAL-LR.pdf
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 07:07 AM

""Extraordinarily, the Israelis ensure they have plenty of food and all essentials so they can try to murder Jews with their stomachs full.""

From my earlier post and ignored, taking the fishing issue out of context and fudging an answer to a point of your, not my, making:-

-snip- ""The whole world (except, apparently, you and Bobad) can see that each of these "generosities" removes control of Palestine from the hands of its citizens, and tightens Israel's stranglehold on Gaza, the West Baank and whatever else Israel may covet of Palestinian land or property.

They already own the gas rig which they stole from Gaza by unilaterally reducing Gaza's territorial limit from a legal twelve to an arbitrary three miles.

Generous indeed, and the Palestinians have to foot the bill to get their supply from those who stole it.

Don T. -snip-

Nice piece of evasive cherry picking Keith.

Now answer my post with something relevant to this, which you ducked out of mentioning.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 06:29 AM

"Thank you for that out of date piece Jim" "cheer for Israel"
So they were ruining childrens' lives and destroying the ordinary peoples' livelihoods two years ago, but they are not doing it anymore - and that makes them what exactly - reformed military thugs maybe - sorry, I was forgetting their recent slaughtering of civilians?
"Israel responded, removing all restrictions on food and humanitarian supplies."
Which presumes they have a right to have restricted them in the first place: the fact that they have done so makes them a terrorist state.
I assume you have read the reports of the Israel cross border attack on organisations that influenced the UN vote on Palestine's admission. The solders had orders to shoot anybody who got in their way
As we have been saying - a terrorist state
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 04:37 AM

Thank you for that out of date piece Jim
On Wednesday, 80 international aid groups called upon Israel to change its policy of blockading civilians in Gaza, because it is having severe negative effects on the health of Gazans.

Israel responded, removing all restrictions on food and humanitarian supplies.
Cheer for Israel
Hamas responded with even more missile attacks on ordinary Jews.
Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 04:28 AM

World Health Agencies report
Jim Carroll

World Health Agencies Condemn Israeli Blockade of Gaza (Again); Obama's Biggest Mideast Failure
Posted on 01/21/2010 by Juan
When a relief plane for the Physicians without Borders isn't allowed to land by US military authorities at the airport in Port-au-Prince, there is an outcry.

But Israeli military authorities will not allow any relief planes at all to land in the Gaza Strip (the Israelis destroyed Gaza's airport in 2001).

We cheer when a Haitian child is rescued from the rubble, but ignore the thousands of Gazan children who are suffering malnutrition and being buried by Israeli policy, a policy that is a war crime. I am of course not the only to be struck by this contrast: see also Phil Weiss and others quoted at his essential site.

On Wednesday, 80 international aid groups called upon Israel to change its policy of blockading civilians in Gaza, because it is having severe negative effects on the health of Gazans.

Admittedly, the situation in Gaza is not as dire as that in Haiti. But it is very, very bad, and it is man-made. The Israeli government imposed a blockade on the Gaza strip in 2007 and has maintained it ever since. It limits the import of fuel and staples, and punishes the whole population. Since half of the 1.5 million Gazans are children, the Israeli siege of the little territory is among the more massive ongoing cases of child abuse in the world. There is a virtual news blackout on this atrocity in the US mass media, and attempts of two sets of activists to get humanitarian aid to Gaza in recent weeks were largely ignored by them.

Nor is the Gaza blockade a mere preoccupation of utopian human rights activists. It has become an element of regional geo-politics. It is part of the reason for significant tensions between Israel and one of its few allies in the Middle East, Turkey. As Turkey has democratized and Muslim sentiments have become more important in its politics, and as it has increasingly emerged as a new Middle Eastern power (some speak of neo-Ottomanism), its concern with issues such as Gaza has become more central. The horrible condition of the Gazans is often the lead story on Arab satellite news channels such as Aljazeera, and public anger about it (expressed as much toward the US and the Egyptian regime as toward Israel) is at a boiling point. That anger feeds into terrorism against the West. The Gaza blockade is isolating Israel and fuelling a widespread boycott movement in Europe, Canada and South Africa. And, of course, the blockade makes even the virulently anti-Shiite Sunni fundamentalists of Hamas willing to take aid from Iran, bestowing a toehold in the Levant on Tehran. The French statesman Talleyrand once observed of Napoleon I's murder of the Duc d'Enghien that "It is worse than a crime; it is a blunder." The same could be said of the Gaza blockade from the point of view of any realistic Israeli and US foreign policy.

Last year UNICEF found that about one in ten children in Gaza is severely malnourished, to the point of stunting. The Israeli blockade is deeply implicated in this semi-starvation of tens of thousands of children, as is the Gaza War launched by Israel a little over a year ago, which wrecked nearly one-fifth of farms and deeply hurt agriculture in general. Gaza once flourished agriculturally, but it was cut off by Israel from its natural markets in the Levant, and the US and Egypt have been induced to support the blockade.

The World Health Organization fact sheet on Gaza's plight, issued yesterday, reads like a post-apocalyptic Hollywood film. WHO says:

' The closure of Gaza since mid-2007 and the last Israeli military strike between 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009 have led to on-going deterioration in the social, economic and environmental determinants of health.

Many specialized treatments, for example for complex heart surgery and certain types of cancer, are not available in Gaza and patients are therefore referred for treatment to hospitals outside Gaza. But many patients have had their applications for exit permits denied or delayed by the Israeli Authorities and have missed their appointments. Some have died while waiting for referral. . .

Supplies of drugs and disposables have generally been allowed into Gaza. However, there are often shortages on the ground mainly because of shortfalls in deliveries . . . Delays of up to 2-3 months occur on the importation of certain types of medical equipment, such as x-ray machines and electronic devices. Clinical staff frequently lack the medical equipment they need. Medical devices are often broken, missing spare parts or out of date. . .

– Health professionals in Gaza have been cut off from the outside world. Since 2000, very few doctors, nurses or technicians have been able to leave the Strip for training eg to update their clinical skills or to learn about new medical technology. This is severely undermining their ability to provide quality health care. . . .

GAZA'S ECONOMY IN COLLAPSE

Rising unemployment (41.5 percent of Gaza's workforce in the first quarter of 2009) and poverty (in May 2008, 70 percent of the families were living on an income of less than one dollar a day per person) is likely to have long term adverse effects on the physical and mental health of the population [the unemployment is a direct result of the Israeli blockade]. . .

OPERATION "CAST LEAD" — IMPACT ON HEALTH FACILITIES AND STAFF [I.e. the Israeli war on Gaza in winter 2008-2009]

– 16 health workers killed and 25 injured on duty

– Damaged health services infrastructure:
+ 15 of 27 Gaza's hospitals
+ 43 of its 110 Primary Health Care services
+ 29 of its 148 ambulances

– The lack of building materials is affecting essential health facilities: the new surgical wing in Gaza�fs main Shifa hospital has remained unfinished since 2006. Hospitals and primary care facilities, damaged during operation �Cast Lead�, have not been rebuilt because construction materials are not allowed into Gaza.'

The UN complained that while Israel has a fair record of allowing treatment of Gazans in Israeli hospitals, and that record has improved, some 300-400 requests a month are met with substantial delays or turned down. This issue was foregrounded by a lot of the wire services who picked up the story, but it seems to me not the most important problem. The blockade is the problem.

The Israeli blockade is aimed at weakening Hamas, a fundamentalist party-militia that won power in the Palestine Authority in the elections of January 2006. (Ironically, the Israelis had supported Hamas the late 1980s in hopes of splitting the Palestinians) When the Bush administration and Israel successfully induced the Palestine Liberation Organization of Mahmoud Abbas to make a coup in the West Bank and dislodge the elected Hamas government there, Hamas managed to hang on to power in Gaza, in part because of strong public support. Hamas has committed terrorism against Israeli civilians, and launched small rockets at nearby Israeli towns. It had however made a truce with Israel in 2008, which it observed until Israel broke it, and no Israelis had been killed by Hamas rockets in the lead-up to Israel's war on the small territory.

Collectively punishing 1.5 million Gazans in order to weaken Hamas is in any case strictly illegal in international law and is a war crime. According to Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949:

'Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

Pillage is prohibited.

Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.'

Not only is today's ongoing blockade a war crime, but it follows on and continues destructive policies of the Israeli military during the Gaza War, as the Goldstone Report for the United Nations concluded. The Boston Globe reported Goldstone's defense of his findings at Brandeis University (h/t Mondoweiss.

' Goldstone said his central criticism of Israel is that its strategy intentionally applied disproportionate force in Gaza to inflict widespread damage on the civilian population. His report found that the Israeli air and ground attacks destroyed 5,000 homes; put 200 factories out of operation, including the only flour factory in the country; systematically destroyed egg-producing chicken farms; and bombed sewage and water systems. "If that isn't collective punishment, what is?'' Goldstone asked.'

Very little of this destruction deliberately visited on civilians has been repaired, in large part because the Israelis won't allow the materiel in necessary for rebuilding.

Until President Obama does something to end the Gaza siege and its attendant horrors, his Mideast policy will remain an abject failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 03:55 AM

Don.
I'm still waiting to hear your rationale for the claim that keeping Gaza's fishermen confined short of where the shoals are, is not a restriction on food.

Any shortfall is covered because unlimited imports are allowed.
This is from the website you keep on about Don.
Small cheere for Israel Don?

Access eased for Gaza farmers and fisherman
Gaza fishermen's port.
Media reports state that in the ceasefire negotiations to end Operation Pillar of Defense, Israel and Hamas reached understandings that include the easing of restrictions on the movement of farmers and fishermen in the Gaza Strip. Among other things, it was agreed that the Israeli military would permit Gaza farmers to cultivate plots located up to 100 meters from the Israel-Gaza perimeter fence. This is a change from the official Israeli prohibition of recent years which forbade any approach closer than 300 meters from the fence. In addition, Gaza fishermen may now fish up to six nautical miles (approximately 11 km) from the Gaza coast, compared with the 3-mile limit imposed prior to Operation Pillar of Defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 02:49 AM

Defenders of Hamas, including sadly Little Hawk, claim that Hamas only kills civilians because it cannot make its rockets accurate enough.

When Hamas gets its suicide bombers through the check points they single out civilians.
Their only aim is to kill as many Jews as possible, and civilians are the easiest target.
For example some of the attacks in 2003.
September 9, 2003: Hamas claimed responsibility for two suicide bombings, the first at an entrance to the Tzrifin army base near Rishon Lezion and the second at Café Hillel in the German colony neighborhood of Jerusalem, which killed a total of 15 people and wounded at least 80.
August 19, 2003: Hamas and Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the suicide bombing of a bus in Jerusalem killing at least 18 people and wounding nearly 100.
August 12, 2003: Suicide bombers killed two Israelis and wounded more than a dozen people in two attacks within a half hour of each other, one at a shopping mall in the Tel Aviv suburb of Rosh Ha'ayin and the other at the entrance of the West Bank town of Ariel. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility for the Rosh Ha'ayin bombing and Hamas claimed to have carried out the Ariel attack.
June 20, 2003: An Israeli motorist was shot dead and three of his passengers were wounded when their car was fired upon by Palestinian terrorists near Ofra, north of Ramallah. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
June 11, 2003: Sixteen people were killed and more than 80 wounded when a suicide bomber blew up a Jerusalem city bus during the afternoon rush hour. The bomber was disguised as an ultra-orthodox Jew. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 19, 2003: A Palestinian suicide bomber on a bicycle attacked an Israeli checkpoint on the Gaza Strip, wounding three Israeli soldiers. Hamas claimed responsibility.
May 18, 2003: Seven people were killed and more than 20 wounded when a suicide bomber blew up a Jerusalem city bus at the start of the Israeli work week. The bomber was disguised as an ultra-orthodox Jew. Soon after, a suicide bomber carrying explosives and dressed in the garb of an ultra-orthodox Jew was stopped at a roadblock. The Palestinian detonated his explosives, killing only himself. Hamas claimed responsibility in both attacks.
May 17, 2003: A pregnant Israeli woman and her husband were killed when a suicide bomber detonated himself next to them in a public square in Hebron. Hamas claimed responsibility.
April 30, 2003: Three people were killed and dozens wounded in a suicide bombing at a beachfront pub in Tel Aviv. The Fatah Tanzim and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, carried out as a joint operation.
March 7, 2003: Two Israelis were killed and five were wounded when armed terrorists infiltrated the community of Kiryat Arba and attacked during Shabbat. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
March 5, 2003: Sixteen people were killed and more than 30 wounded when a terrorist detonated a powerful bomb on a bus en route to Haifa University. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
January 5, 2003: Twenty two people were killed and about 120 wounded in a double suicide bombing near the old Central Bus Station in Tel Aviv. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Islamic Jihad and Hamas all claimed responsibility for the attacks.
November 21, 2002: Eleven people were killed and 47 injured when a Palestinian suicide bomber exploded on a bus filled with passengers, including schoolchildren, in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood in Jerusalem. The bus was travelling toward the center of the city during the morning rush hour. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 05:32 PM

BOBAD AND I !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 05:26 PM

Bobert and I do not make up lies about Hamas.
The truth is damning enough.
They deny Israel the right to exist.
They deny Jews the right to live.
Meanwhile, they expect Jews to be nice to them.
Extraordinarily, the Israelis ensure they have plenty of food and all essentials so they can try to murder Jews with their stomachs full.

No condemnation from the two muppets.
Just Don's brief statement that they are both bad, followed by pages of condemnation of Israel and nothing against the self declared Jew exterminators.

And Don calls himself impartial and us bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:03 PM

Google B'Tselem, The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. (Visit their statistics page, last updated August 31, 2012.) and get an education.
I have done.
Nothing about starvation because it does not exist in Gaza and never has.
It is made up Don.
A lie.
Impartial as you are Don, why do you lie about one side?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:01 PM

And I'd rather march in lockstep that goosestep....so there.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 03:59 PM

BTW, I'd rather be a muppet who can see both sides of the story, than a bigot who doesn't know there are two.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 03:56 PM

Still not a single genuine answer directly in response to any question. It is a total waste of time even trying to discuss with you Keith.

You and Bobad are the only two in the whole army who are marching in step!

IN YOUR DREAMS!

Google B'Tselem, The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. (Visit their statistics page, last updated August 31, 2012.) and get an education.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 01:25 PM

Jim, they do not have to ask Israel for help, but they do have to desalinate.
What is your solution.

Don,Starvation is a "process" which may or may not lead to death.
In half a century it never has.
I quoted a Red Cross official and an Hamas official amongst others who state that there is no starvation in Gaza.

Who can you numpties quote who says there is?
Just each other, and Stringsinger!

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: ollaimh
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 12:49 PM

i agree that israel is inflicting human rights violations and crimes against humanity on the palestinians. the treatment of the palestinian authority run areas in gaza and the west bank is atrocious.

however i rarely get involved because the leadership of the palestinians had been fascist for a long time. i have never supported fascists and i am not going to start now.

that being said israel should be subjected to massive internationalsanctions untill they remove all the settlements that were put in place after the oslo accords. this continuing land grab is the major bock to peace. they would still get more land than in 1967 but the palestinian territoru would be a viable nation, which is isn;t now, and the palestiaian economy would possibly be able to grow independant of employment in israel. as long as israel keeps taking more and more land they will have violence. i don't support that violence, but that's a fact of life.

its just like ireland, as long as the british kept taking more and more land, and driving more and more people over seas, they had violence. both are a cycle of violence that requires the agression and land expansion to stop, just to start the peace process/ in both the violence will continue in some forms for decades,that's a fact of life. people don't forget like they are told to. any expansionist state has to stop before peace is a possibility, and accept that the reaction may take decades to die down.

the only other alternative for an expansionist state is total genocide of the natives--which has been tried many times, but i don't think israel can get aweay with that.

israelis clearly think that they can continue this policy as they have gotten away with it for decades. all it will take is one terroist group to get a nuclear weapon to end it all. maybe it will never happen and maybe israel will get away with the land grabs forever, but its such a risky game.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 12:38 PM

Why do you continue to claim that Israel destroying Palestinian infrastructure and then taking over the supply of whatever has been lost as a result, is the magnanimous gesture of a kindly and generous neighbour?

The whole world (except, apparently, you and Bobad) can see that each of these "generosities" removes control of Palestine from the hands of its citizens, and tightens Israel's stranglehold on Gaza, the West Baank and whatever else Israel may covet of Palestinian land or property.

They already own the gas rig which they stole from Gaza by unilaterally reducing Gaza's territorial limit from a legal twelve to an arbitrary three miles.

Generous indeed, and the Palestinians have to foot the bill to get their supply from those who stole it.

BTW, I'm still waiting to hear your rationale for the claim that keeping Gaza's fishermen confined short of where the shoals are, is not a restriction on food.

Even Israeli sources admit that Gaza depends on that supply.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 12:32 PM

Don ~~ It was actually Humpty Dumpty who told Alice that when he used a word, it meant what he chose it to mean.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 12:25 PM

""Starvation is about people dying and it has not happened in Gaza."".

Keith, when are you going to stop this "Tweedledum" nonsense of rewriting the meanings of words.

Starvation is a "process" which may or may not lead to death.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 12:04 PM

Would you let a shower of bastards who had facilitated/participated in the massacre of over 3,000 refugees near your drinking water - fecked if I would!
Over and out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 08:41 AM

Your continual unqualified denial of officially produced report

In favour of desalination as the only hope for keeping Gaza habitable.

UN hydrologists

"The aquifer could become unusable as early as 2016, with the damage irreversible by 2020. UNEP [the UN Environment Programme]

Even with remedial action now to cease abstraction, the aquifer will take decades to recover," said a UN Relief and Works Agency report published this week.

"We are facing a crisis. If we do not address it now, then Gaza will become unliveable," said Shaddad Attili, minister and head of the
Palestinian water authority in Stockholm to lobby the Swedish and other Nordic governments during World Water week.

a desalination plant for Gaza is now backed by Israel, all Mediterranean governments, the UN, the EU and key development banks.

Desalination may not be the most environmentally suitable solution, "but it is the only feasible solution of providing a new water supply to meet growing demand," said Rafiq Husseini, a water expert at the Union for the Mediterranean

Palestinian authorities hope that the plant will be the cornerstone of a larger scheme to provide much needed electricity and clean water for everyone in Gaza.

Those against.

Muppet number 1.
(Jim Carroll)

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 08:28 AM

Vital word missed from Don's quote.
Sorry.


Jim. "You even try to show what good guys these terrorist bastards are by their 'offer' to build desalination plants."

Don. " Is the blocking of seawater desalination (making the water supply a health hazard) not intrinsically a restriction?"

So Muppet 1 condemns the terrorist bastards for offering desalination, and Muppet 2 condemns then for not offering it!

I hope both muppets have now read the Guardian piece, and have an alternative solution to the destruction of the Gaza aquifer.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 08:28 AM

Your cut-'n-paste nowhere addresses any of the reservations about putting the building of desalination plants into the hands of terrorist states; it doesn't even mention the ecological minefield (especially that of the Palestinian fishermen - neither do you; then you couldn't could you; your posting was entirely cut-n-paste; as usual, no thoughts of your own)
Even your Guardian quote (if it's the same as the link you posted earlier), points out that the major drawback is that it is Israel who has proposed it - no nation oin their right mind would put an essential as vulnerable as their water supply - it would be like Britain asking the Germans to replace their water supply after the Luftwaffe had bombed it
The report on the flaws of the desalination proposal came from a study at a German University, which also mentions the horrendous cost of installation and maintenance.
Some time ago you took offence when I suggested that your entire knowledge came from cut-n-pastes, yet your input here is exactly that - don't you have any information of your own?   
Your continual unqualified denial of officially produced reports has managed to turn this into another 'Muslim Prejudice' thread - from now on you do so without my assistence
Don't forget your meds.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 08:24 AM

Jim. "You even try to show what good guys these terrorist bastards are by their 'offer' to build desalination plants."

Don. " Is the of seawater desalination (making the water supply a health hazard) not intrinsically a restriction?"

So Muppet 1 condemns the terrorist bastards for offering desalination, and Muppet 2 condemns then for not offering it!

I hope both muppets have now read the Guardian piece, and have an alternative solution to the destruction of the Gaza aquifer.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 07:30 AM

Guardian 12th August 2012
Water for the 1.6 million people – half of them children and two-thirds refugees – who live in just 365 sq km of land bordering the Mediterranean comes entirely from the shallow coastal aquifer shared between Gaza, Israel and Egypt, which is only partly replenished each year by rainfall. Decades of overpumping and heavy pollution from salts and waste water has left the aquifer highly degraded and in danger of irreparable damage.

UN hydrologists say no more than 55 million cubic metres (mcm) of water should be abstracted a year, but present exploitation rates run at around 160mcm. If this continues, says the UN, it could result in the water table dropping to a point where massive sea water intrusion permanently destroys the source within a few years.

In addition, the little water available is heavily polluted by nitrates from uncontrolled sewage, and fertilisers from farmlands, making 90% of the water unfit for human consumption. With the Gaza population expected to increase by 500,000 within eight years, and nearly 25% of all illnesses in Gaza water-related, the urgency for countries to put aside differences and address the issue is growing.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:32 AM

"Is there starvation in Gaza Jim, or is it a lie?"
Do you still beat your wife - yes or no?
That is a stupid question in this context

It is not stupid Jim.
Starvation is about people dying and it has not happened in Gaza.
Why claim it and blame Israel?

Malnutrition.
Parts of Egypt have a worse problem.
None can be blamed on Israel.
There is no shortage of food, only lack of money to buy it.

Hamas squanders money on an endless war.
No war, no restrictions, healthier people.
Israel does not want war.
Hamas actually does.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:26 AM

In 2005, as part of Israel's disengagement from Gaza, water supply systems that had served
the Israeli communities, including 25 wells, storage reservoirs and a well-developed
transmission system, were also transferred to the Palestinians. At the end of the process, all
3water supply and sewerage systems in the Gaza Strip were under exclusive Palestinian control.

The period of the Interim Agreement was originally determined as five years from the signing
of the agreement. However, the two sides have continued to operate according to this Interim
Agreement since the time of its signing to the present, even though more than 13 years have
elapsed since the agreement was signed. Israel has responded to the needs of the Palestinians
and has increased the quantity of water provided to them far beyond that specified in the
Interim Agreement.
Israel offered the Palestinians the possibility of erecting a seawater desalination plant in the
Hadera area, which would be constructed and operated for them by the donor countries, and
which would supply water directly to areas in the West Bank. In addition, Israel proposed to
the Palestinians the purchase of water for the Gaza Strip directly from the desalination plant
at Ashkelon. The Palestinians are well aware of the need to develop a new major source of
water (desalination), but are nevertheless not in a hurry to take steps in this direction.

As regards Gaza, it was agreed to transfer to the Gaza Strip an additional 5 MCM/yr from
Israel's national system (at a price equal to the cost of desalinated water plus transport). The
supply pipeline for this purpose was laid by Israel up to the border with the Gaza Strip. The
connection inside the Gaza Strip has not yet been constructed by the Palestinians.

In the Gaza Strip, where the Palestinians are in full control, over 3,000 unapproved wells
were drilled immediately following Israel's withdrawal, causing a severe drop in water levels
and seriously harming the quality of water in the Gaza Aquifer and the general Gaza water
economy. This situation is ongoing and is even intensifying (there are many more
unapproved than approved wells). The total damage caused is clear and is difficult to reverse.
The phenomenon in Gaza has not been stopped and the only ones affected are the Gaza
residents (although it may be reasonably assumed that without proper supervision and
enforcement, even the Mountain Aquifer will eventually be severely affected).

As regards Gaza, it should be noted that the Gaza Aquifer has no impact on Israel and Israel
does not prevent the flow of surface water or groundwater to the Gaza Aquifer. Clearly, the
source of any additional water to the Gaza Strip must be desalination of seawater. General
plans have been prepared (by donor countries, USAID) for seawater desalination, and their
implementation can provide a separate, general solution for the population of the Gaza Strip.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:10 AM

"Is there starvation in Gaza Jim, or is it a lie?"
Do you still beat your wife - yes or no?
That is a stupid question in this context
There is extreme hardship identified as having been caused by the blockade - you have had the evidence, and only a sicko like yourself would attempt to draw a line between malnutrition and actual starvation - yes, there is malnutrition up to the point of starvation in %10 of Palestinian children - you want to claim a victory because those children are not actually starving to death, but only having their lives destroyed by Israeli terrorism aimed at civilians - feel free.
You have had proof of all the claims on your list and have produced not one single scrap of evidence to prove otherwise - these are documented facts from responsible, neutral agencies.
You even try to show what good guys these terrorist bastards are by their 'offer' to build desalination plants. If you have any knowledge of the subject you must be aware that the desalination programme they are promoting is a political bone of contention and has been for as long as I can remember
They are built by a military company 'Israeli Military Industries Ltd' which puts the supply and maintenance of the means of producing the only source of fresh water into Israeli military hands. The threat to water supplies was a contentious issue in that area when we visited Egypt a dozen years ago.
It has been calculated that these plants imply a one state solution - wouldn't that be great for Israeli expansionist aims?
Ecologically they are dynamite, they have been reckoned to be a major threat to the fishing industry and much of the surrounding land - as if Israeli harassment of Palestinian fishermen and the situation the Palestinian farmers are in hasn't brought about enough hardship in Gaza.
They have even met with opposition within Israel itself on ecological grounds.
What a wonderful Trojan Horse they would make for the Israeli expansionism.
And your answer - that the Palestinians should surrender, end all opposition and in return they will live in a land of milk and honey for ever and ever and ever....
You come over exactly like a Nazi propagandist; Lord Haw-Haw is about right for your CV.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 03:54 AM

Out of interest, Keith, what makes you call Jim "well-informed"? He has always struck me as the prime exemplar on this forum of the ancient principle of "My mind is made up; so please do not confuse me with facts".

~M~

I expect that with his usual charm & cogency in argument he will denounce me again as one of a "pair of shits" for saying so. Oh well...

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 03:11 AM

Is there starvation in Gaza Jim, or is it a lie?
Please state your view of this grave allegation, without silliness please.

Strinsinger has the excuse of ignorance, but you are well informed.
So, why did you support Stringsinger's false allegations?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 03:04 AM

"No starvation......."
And if anybody says there are I'll hold my breath, close my eyes and scweam, and scweam, and scweam.....

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 01:07 AM

No-one id denying the malnutrition problem.
It is found wherever there is poverty,
That is the cause, not Israel.
There is no shortage of food in Gaza.

Little children are being starved.
That is a lie Stringsinger.
They are suffering a form of national genocide as their land is being appropriated by an oppressor.
Another lie. Their population is growing faster than almost any other in the world.

Your thread title and OP were lies.
No starvation.
No holocaust.
No shoah.
No genocide.
No food shortage.
No food restriction for years.
All lies Stringsinger.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 07:23 PM

No the lie is the denial that Gaza has a malnutrition problem and Israeli leaders are making statements like Vilnai in relationship to the Palestinians. They are suffering a form of national genocide as their land is being appropriated by an oppressor.

There is something similar to what happened in Germany in the 20's.

Their actions speak louder than their excuses. Little children are being starved.

Denial is a form of lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 03:22 PM

In the recent action, less than a hundred civilian deaths, over a thousand targets hit from land, sea and air in a densely populated urban area, and some civilians willing shields and marrtyrs according to Hamas.
Such a low casualty rate is unprecedented in military history.
Small cheer for Israel.

You have succeeded in changing the subject.
We were discussing whether Gaza has suffered starvation, holocaust, shoah or genocide.
The answer is no to all.
This thread is based on a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM

If no rockets were fired into Israel there would be zero deaths.

Why are the rockets being fired?

Do you think maybe Hamas is doing so knowing that there will be retaliation and is sacrificing the lives of it's citizens in order to stir up anti Jewish sentiment in the region and among the Jew haters in the world?

There is ample evidence on these threads of that effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM

Sorry, should read:

Premature explosions, friendly fire, or suicide bombers themselves, are excluded.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 02:10 PM

Since September 2000

6617 Palestinians
1079 Israelis

6 - 1 looks like a bit more than ""not even a hundred Don"".

Since 2004

3414 Palestinians
259 Israelis

These are deaths of both military and civilians killed by members of the opposing nationality. Premature explosions, friendly fire, or suicide bombers. Nor does it include Palestinians who dted as a result of inability to reach medical care, due to Israeli road closures, curfews and border closures.

Source: B'Tselem, The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. (Visit their statistics page, last updated August 31, 2012.)

Add to the figures 137 Palestinians killed in seven days since the publication, without one single Israeli death.

They are getting significantly less careful as time goes on, wouldn't you say.

Chilling figures indeed!

* The Palestinian people do not have a military, so the usual classification of civilian is not being used. Instead B'Tselem provides data on the number of Palestinians who did not participate in hostilities, a significantly more stringent qualification than the one used to identify Israeli civilians. We do not know how many of the Israelis listed as civilians participated in the hostilities. Many settlers who illegally have taken over parts of the West Bank (and used to live in parts of the Gaza Strip) are heavily armed and there have been numerous reports of their brutal attacks on their Palestinian neighbors.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 01:40 PM

For figures of deaths on both sides, the following link to "If Americans knew" is quite a revelation.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

And don't forget to add the 137 killed since that page was published.

Don T.