BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:18 AM

""From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:39 PM

"WHY CANNOT FOOD AND MEDICINES BE BROUGHT IN THRU WHATEVER ROUTE THE WEAPONS ARE ENTERING BY?"

Because they can get as much as they like delivered across the border with Israel, above ground, on big trucks, so why ever would they want to?
Likewise medical supplies.
Blaming mismangement in Gaza on Israel is just propaganda, and these knobs all lap it up.""

Comments Mike?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:14 AM

Didn't claim to be 'squeaky clean', Don; but I genuinely do try to avoid mere abuse or obscenity on these threads, and I don't think you will find more than one lapse, an unfortunate attempt at making facetious puns about cunts, in the last two years at least. If you can find another, I will abjectly apologise.

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:04 AM

""Meant to add, Don, something on the lines of "So pots'n'kettles 2U!"""

You ain't exactly squeaky clean yourself Mike.

""26th Nov 02.43PM

Jim the fool"".

Albeit more gentle than Keith who started the rot calling everybody who doesn't share his love of the Israeli government and the IDF "these knobs".

I insist upon the right to respond in kind when attacked by a twerp who gets nasty when he can't win.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:03 AM

Jim ~~ I was only responding to this specific point from Don

Interesting, no end, how those promoting Israeli lies descend very quickly into personal vituperation when their arguments fail to deceive. Don T.

which I am sure you will agree was unjust. As to other issues, I am, as you know, out of this argument in disgust at the behaviour of some [not all - it was, note, some of own their distressed colleagues who shopped them] Israeli soldiers as reported in the link that Lox provided above.

But defending Keith from so unjust a pots-n-kettles accusation as Don's does not really constitute 'fairy-godmotherdom', to my mind. I am sure you are a fair enough person to acknowledge that.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 04:39 AM

No.
Keith does not lie.
I would always rather lose, and so should you.
All the other stuff, fair comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 04:27 AM

"Feel free, Jim, to repeat your maybe funny once in the previous millennium joke about fairy godmothers if it brings you any sort of satisfaction!"
No point Mike - you're doing the job yourself far better than I ever could.
When in a corner, Keith will lie, even about his own postings, deliberately distort the arguments of others, invent 'experts' who, he claims, are responsible for the ideas he puts forward, claim support from members of this forum when he has none, even to the extent of posting support under a false identity, fake cut-'n-pastes, and always, but always ignore and deny outright evidence put before him when it goes against his own arguments.....
That he might to this with "moderation of language and a courteous tone" is somewhat beside the point (though, like your own, his mask slips occasionally).
Exasperation is a defence we could all put up when arguing with Kieth; he is by far the most dishonest and devious as well as the most right-wing individual I have ever encountered in an argument - I really don't know why he bothers taking part in these discussions - he offers nothing - he learns nothing - and he appears to know nothing and the only thing he seems to gain is attention.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 02:38 AM

very quickly into personal vituperation when their arguments fail to deceive.

No.
Finally in exasperation when oft established facts fail to register with someone trying to take us back to page 1!.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 02:07 AM

Meant to add, Don, something on the lines of "So pots'n'kettles 2U!"

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 12:04 AM

Disengaged from the main argument of this thread for reasons already several times expressed for being not further able in conscience to defend the Israeli position at all; but feel justice demands that I point out, Don, that Keith's posts are generally expressed with a moderation of language and a courteous tone which most on this forum, including yourself {e g. 26 Nov 0659 'Don't you dare to ascribe your stinking prejudice to me, you lying bastard'}, would do well to emulate.

Feel free, Jim, to repeat your maybe funny once in the previous millennium joke about fairy godmothers if it brings you any sort of satisfaction!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 05:33 PM

"", Chinese and every other country's media are scrutinising the whole thing microscopically and how do you imagine Israel could keep it quiet if they said no restrictions and still restricted, you twat!? (my emphasis)""

Interesting, no end, how those promoting Israeli lies descend very quickly into personal vituperation when their arguments fail to deceive.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 05:55 AM

Further to the posts about the testimony of Israeli soldiers, posters here might also find this website - containing numerous similar video testimonies of ex-Israeli soldiers - of interest:

Breaking the Silence - Israeli Soldier's Testimonies

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 04:31 AM

Sorry Mike
I do have empathy, and it was never my intention to either insult or distress you - or anybody.
Much of what you say equally applies to me and many other non Jews were alive while the gas chambers were still fully operational and who pinned much on the formation of the State of Israel.
Best wishes,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 01:50 PM

Yes OK Jim ~~ You have made your point and I accept it. But try to have a bit of empathy. It is all, with my background and history, a matter of considerable pain and distress to me, the way Israel has gone. Surely you can understand that? It would be the action of a friend to refrain from continually rubbing my nose in it.

Sincerely

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/12/01/palestinian-israeli-settlements-illegal/1738827/
Somethin else for you not to bat for
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 02:43 AM

PS
Still not batting for them I see Mike
Jim Carroll
......
Jim, please see again my post of 27 Nov 0622 am. I say again, in case anyone missed it, that the link posted by Lox appears to me authentic and credible; and I can no longer 'bat for' any entity whose soldiers can treat civilians, even enemy ones in time of war, in the manner described there. It has put Israel, even within the specific part of the conflict which is the topic of this thread, entirely beyond the pale so far as I am concerned. Knowing this, I can't see how even Keith et al can go on expressing support for them.

I am off this thread except for purposes of repeating this when challenged, as by Jim here.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:35 PM

I know it to be true Don because Israel announced it to the whole world and because aid agencies including UN agencies are constantly involved and it could not be kept a secret if it was not true, and the whole world media including Arab, Russian, Chinese and every other country's media are scrutinising the whole thing microscopically and how do you imagine Israel could keep it quiet if they said no restrictions and still restricted, you twat!?

That Vilnai quote was some SIX YEARS AGO when restrictions were still in force and made clear that even with the restrictions Israel would ensure sufficient food got through.

Hope that clears everything up Don dear.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 02:01 PM

Israel is continuing to oppress the Palestinians despite their acceptance of statehood.

The interesting attitude of the Zionist deniers is that it seems to be set in stone.
The information that they give is entirely erroneous and incorrect.

The latest from Netanyahu is to disregard a two-state solution.

Israel has never been an honest broker in negotiations with Palestinians. They only want to expand and take over Palestinian land.

The US is complicit and is building a military bunker under ground outside of Tel Aviv.
That should tell somebody something.

Here's some important and useful information. Juan Cole knows more about the process taking place in the Mid-East with Israel and Palestine than anyone else on Mudcat.
He's been studying it for decades.

Juan Cole

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 12:43 PM

""And Israel waants them to have as much as they want without any restriction,""

And you know that to be true because............?

Oh Yes! Because Israel says so. Except that the evidence (because Israel said so) is that Israel intended to "put Gaza on a diet". And that is collective punishment!

So which is it Keith? Are they lying now, or then.

Bearing in mind of course that there are more agencies claiming food shortages than not.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 12:29 PM

I can't believe that no-one has made this juxtaposition: -

UN recognition of Palestine

Israel's response

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 01:20 PM

"Nevertheless, it is a fact that Israel imposes no restriction on Gazan food and humanitarian imports,"

Yes it is Jim.
That Vilnai quote was years ago and was about ensuring there would always be enough food even when there were restrictions.

There is no longer an official list of banned items, so what is let through or stopped appears to depend entirely on what the prevailing mood of the Israelis.
Lie.
Israel has gone on record, no restriction on food or humanitarian supplies.
The aid agencies would soon make a noise if they reneged.

The Israelis are openly the aggressors in this conflict, and have been since day one.
No, they have not.

It is more than a little ludicrous to suggest that acts of aggression against civilians by a regime with nuclear capability would cease if only David would throw away his sling!

Yes actually.
Those slingshots are killing innocents and terrorising millions.
Israel does not commit acts of aggression against civilians, just on the slingshotters hiding behind them.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 11:08 AM

PS
Still not batting for them I see Mike
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 11:05 AM

"Nevertheless, it is a fact that Israel imposes no restriction on Gazan food and humanitarian imports,"
There is no longer an official list of banned items, so what is let through or stopped appears to depend entirely on what the prevailing mood of the Israelis.
What lists that do exist have been compiled by the UN and other organisations as having been prevented from crossing int Gaza at one time or another - not one of the apologists have responded to the fact that stopping or delaying medical equipment have been cited as causing deaths, but it seems the technique here is 'if a fact is inconvenient, ignore it'.
The claim that there is no restriction on food rings hollow with the proposal that inspired this thread - the intention to count calories in order to keep what is allowed through at subsistence level.
The Israelis are openly the aggressors in this conflict, and have been since day one.
"According to Benny Morris the Israelis were responsible for 24 massacres during the war.[1]Aryeh Yizthaki attests 10 major massacres with more than 50 victims each.[5]Palestinian researcher Salman Abu-Sitta records 33, half of them occurring during the civil war period[5] and Saleh Abdel Jawadhas listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians, where no threat was posed to Israeli soldiers, took place.[6]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_War
Any further doubts about who is the main aggressor can be seen by comparing the casualty figures - Israeli - Palestinian, military - civilian
As well as the atrocities mentioned (and denied without proof by the atrocity deniers and apologists here), attempting to prevent any goods for domestic, building or agricultural use entering Gaza is the supreme act of aggression aimed exclusively at the civilian population -
"You old hypocrite Jim!"
As you have already pointed out "No government answerable to its people could allow such terrorising of its civilians without striking back"
It is more than a little ludicrous to suggest that acts of aggression against civilians by a regime with nuclear capability would cease if only David would throw away his sling!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 10:13 AM

Nevertheless, it is a fact that Israel imposes no restriction on Gazan food and humanitarian imports, even though Gaza makes war with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:52 AM

What an utterly risible post. Is Bibi your uncle, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:56 AM

No Keith, not within Gazan control.

What they get is what Israel waants them to have.

Yes Don.
And Israel waants them to have as much as they want without any restriction, even though they make war on Israel and murder (literally murder) as many of its people as they can.

They are lucky to have such a forgiving neighbor.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 07:56 PM

Michael, please do not equate any exchanges I have with Guffers with anything even remotely sensible that I ever try to say or do. Do permit me at least a little latitude in the matter of occasionally being egregiously stupid if I want to be. Wibble.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 07:23 PM

""Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 01:34 PM

So, how does Israel control what Egypt chooses to do?

Don, you still post as if there was some restriction on food and humanitarian supplies from Israel.
There is not.
It can and does all come in above ground, by the truckload, as much as they want.""

No Keith, not within Gazan control.

What they get is what Israel waants them to have.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 01:34 PM

So, how does Israel control what Egypt chooses to do?

Don, you still post as if there was some restriction on food and humanitarian supplies from Israel.
There is not.
It can and does all come in above ground, by the truckload, as much as they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:36 PM

Not that I lied ~~ I meant it at the time; but, like you said

"You can check-out any time you like, But you can never leave!"

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:33 PM

Steve ~~ cf your own last post on 'Alternative Science'!

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:21 PM

Nice one, Michael. Are you trying to prove that this thread is Hotel California?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:09 PM

Don ~~ You have missed my last post, 0622 am. You will find I have changed my position, thanks to Lox's link & your extracts from it. I know I said there that I would now stay off this thread & post no more; but this message an exception to that as it seems you have missed it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 11:56 AM

""where is it getting in? And EVEN YETTER AGAIN, why can't food & medicines & other essentials not come in the same way? ~~ which all you pillox are maintaining they are not, when they demonstrably are at that.""

Mike, once again, can you not see the difference, logistically, between bringing in say a thousand rockets, and bringing in the food and supplies required for 1.7 million people?

Effectively the weight of supplies would be of the order of bringing in one rocket per head of those 1.7 million.

Totally unrealistic.

Besides, if Israel is entitled to arm itself in its own defence, why should Gaza be prevented from doing likewise? Absent Israeli aggression, they would not be needing to use them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 11:48 AM

""How does Israel control what Egypt allows?""

Had you removed your head from its normal repository and followed the link I posted you would have learned something.

The Israeli built fence controls the whole land border of Gaza and on the Egyptian side consists of a steel and concrete wall.

Entry into the Gaza Strip by land is through five crossing points: the northern Erez Crossing into Israel, the southern Rafah Crossing into Egypt, and the eastern Karni Crossing used only for cargo. Other cargo crossing points are the Kerem Shalom Crossing on the border with Egypt and the Sufa Crossing farther north.

On 22 January 2008 after Israel imposed a total closure on all crossings to the Gaza Strip, a group of Hamas demonstrators attempted to force open the door of the Rafah Crossing. They were beaten back by Egyptian police and gunfire erupted. That same night Hamas militants set off 15 explosive charges, demolishing a 200-metre length of the metal border wall. After the resulting Breach of the Gaza-Egypt border, many thousands of Palestinians, with estimates ranging from 200,000 to 700,000, crossed into Egypt to buy goods. Palestinians were seen purchasing food, fuel, cigarettes, shoes, furniture, car parts, and generators.

No mention of them trying to obtain anything dangerous, unless they planned to use the generators to give the Israelis electric shocks.

And perhaps you can explain, Keith, how the Israelis managed to close that border they don't control, hhmmmmnnn?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 08:07 AM

Understanding, reconciliation, started in Northern Ireland with a listening process. People from different factions in the same neighbourhoods were brought to local halls to hear each other's stories. The challenge was not to argue, but to listen to each other's accounts of suffering, grief, humiliation, and to just listen. Some people in Israel and Gaza are already doing the same thing, strangely, united by shared suffering resulting from their two leaderships.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 07:33 AM

Not to mention throwing it's political opponents off of roof tops but I guess that's acceptable because they were "democratically" elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:33 AM

As soon as Hamas got power, it killed or incarcerated all opposition that did not flee, abolished elections and embarked on an endless war.
I called it a tyranny.
It is the brutal, old style Arab regime that the people have been fighting so hard to get rid of across the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:22 AM

There are two threads ongoing on Israel, the 'arseholes' one and the 'Vilnai.. Shoah' one. I am posting this on both.

I have previously posted on both in defence of Israeli policy in Gaza, which has led some, understandably, to question the wholeheartedness of the rejection I have long professed of any identification with present-day Israel, a vast disappointment to many like me in my generation of Jews and its successors. I still feel that the Israeli position on the Gaza situation is understandable in the circumstances, and maintain my mystification as to how weapons but not food can get in.

But I shall no longer pursue this attitude; nor will I contribute any further to, or even open again, either of these threads.

This decision follows my horror at reading Lox's link on one of the threads to the members of the IDF's accounts of their colleagues' behaviour in carrying out searches, which consisted largely of maltreatment of the occupants of houses chosen to be searched. These activities were, I shame to say, learnt from the behaviour of British troops occupying Palestine under the Mandate. I have related before, on another thread, the stories my family learned from an Israeli friend who stayed as a houseguest with us in the late 40s, soon after Israel's Independence, of her friend's having experience a search by British soldiers, which consisted, with their sergeant's consent & encouragement, of nothing but shitting on the floor and then using the family's personal clothing to wipe their bums. And these, I repeat, were British soldiers, oh the shame! It seems the way soldiers go on in such situations

But, be that as it may, I still cannot countenance the tales in Lox's link of Israeli soldiers going on in any such fashion, mistreating innocent occupants of houses they have chosen to search, destroying things, and so on, whoever or wherever their predecessors in such conduct might have been.

So, I repeat, I leave this thread and its companion: with my curse on what Israel has become as my final words.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:52 AM

Which "dictator" is that Keith? The democratically elected Hamas party?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:53 AM

You old hypocrite Jim!
Sanctions against a tyrannical regime are OK, unless it is Hamas, right?
Remember this conversation?
Me.
"Those poor people need essential supplies.
The IRC (International Red Cross) is begging for an opportunity to get stuff in.
What would be the point of your "trade embargo" Jim?
How would that stop the daily massacres?"

You.
"Those poor people need essential supplies."
These people need to be stopped getting killed first and foremost - a proven method of dealing with dictators is not to call them facile names but to threaten their economy and their power base."

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:31 AM

They targetted another apartment block being used as a headquarters for the press - no Hamas there
From "Russia Today"
The Al-Sharouk compound, which houses many media offices in Gaza, has been targeted once again in an Israeli airstrike. Islamic Jihad says one of its top leaders was killed in the attack.
A pillar of smoke was seen billowing from the 10-story building as fire engines and ambulances rushed to the scene. Islamic Jihad says one of its top militant leaders, Ramiz Harb was killed in the strike on Monday. Harb is a leading figure Islamic Jihad's militant wing, the Al Quds Brigades. The IDF described Harb as a chief propagandist for the mlitant group.
The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) confirmed via Twitter that four Islamic Jihad operatives who were hiding in a media building were the intended target of the attack on Monday. Several people are also reported to be wounded.

"The senior PIJ [Palestinian Islamic Jihad] cadre was operating in a media building. They were't [sic] there to be interviewed. They were using reporters as human shields," the IDF tweeted.
"We targeted only the 2nd floor, which is where the senior terrorists were. The rest of the building was unharmed. Direct hit confirmed," they continued.
Apart from Harb, Baha Abu al-Ata Tissir, the commander of Islamic Jihad's Gaza City Brigade, and senior operatives Mahmoud Mahmed Jabari and Halil Batini were believed to be in the building at the time of the attack. It is currently unknown if the other three men died in the attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:13 AM

"If Israel does not restrict food supplies, it is not preventing anyone in Gaza eating."
WHAT BIT OF "IN PREVENTING THE PALESTINIANS FROM GROWING THEIR OWN FOOD TO EITHER SELL OR TO FEED THEMSELVES THE ISRAELIS ARE DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR MALNUTRITION AMONG %10 OF PALESTINIAN CHILDREN" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
The situation in Gaza caused by the blockade has been reported by the organisations working there and by the press has been reported and has been put up on this thread ad nauseum - you have the facts and you have the evidence for those facts - just as you have the facts for the massacres
The fact that you continue to distort every single issue that is raised with you and that you misrepresent the arguments of everybody who raises them, is proof of your dishonest fanaticism - "lying bastard" just about sums it up.
"the deliberate destruction of built up areas.... Only those built up areas where Hamas fights from."
If this is your argument, then you are contradicting your earlier claim that you do not support the killing of hostages, as you haveclaimed they are.
The Israeli bombardment has targetted domestic blocks - their first victim this time was an apartment block, killing 11 civilians including four children
http://forward.com/articles/166300/four-kids-dead-as-israel-strike-hits-gaza-apartmen/?p=all
They targetted another apartment block being used as a headquarters for the press - no Hamas there
26 children were killed and 400 were injured - according to he United Nations "lies".
http://article.wn.com/view/2012/11/22/Children_suffering_devastating_impact_of_Gaza_crisis_a_UN_ri/
The Israelis have no idea where Hamas is - part of their stated mission is to find them, yet from the outset they have targetted buildings occupied by civilians.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 04:36 PM

If Israel does not restrict food supplies, it is not preventing anyone in Gaza eating.
Malnutrition is caused by poverty.
Hamas prefers to fund Jew killing than keeping its people healthy.
It's fighters never go short of missiles do they!
Please give an up to date quote blaming Israel.

What agricultural equipment is banned, apart from those fertilisers that can be used to make explosives (and only those)?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 03:05 PM

"Found in all countries and most towns."
The UN and Amnesty have both linked this directly to the blockade so you continue to call them liars.
Israel's determination to control food supplies into Gaza is made obvious by their policy of measuring the necessary calorific intake of food to avoid starvation - another fabrication, no doubt!
Israel's wall and it's inclusion of agricultural equipment on their banned list has prevented farmers from farming their land in order to make a living by selling their produce = high prices = shortages = malnutrition.
Even if that equipment were to be removed from the banned list, it has been there long enough to have caused long-term, probably permanent damage to the most vulnerable Palestinians - the poor and the young, so your claim that it is no longer on the list, even if you had produced irrefutable evidenc that it had, is totally immaterial - the damage has been long done.
"chemical warfare "
Not a lie - a fact, as horrific pictures of women and children with appalling burns have been put up for you graphically show.
Whatever the purpose of white phosphorus may have been, if it is used over built-up ares it is bound to cause injuries.
Israel was warned against its use, yet it still continued to use it.
If someone were to take up a baseball bat and smash a person over the head with it, that bat becomes an offensive, even lethal weapon.
White phosphorus = a chemical weapon when used against human beings.

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/iopt0309webwcover.pdf

The Israeli regime = murderous thugs that wage war on civilians
That's enough for you to digest in one sitting; more to come.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 02:43 PM

you've already been given the facts of Egypt's desire not to rock the boat - read it again.
Jim Carroll
/../.,/
So why are they letting all that weaponry in, probably via Sinai Tunnel? Or, if they are not,

YET AGAIN

where is it getting in? And EVEN YETTER AGAIN, why can't food & medicines & other essentials not come in the same way? ~~ which all you pillox are maintaining they are not, when they demonstrably are at that.

Keith has probably already given us the answer to that anyhow: they are getting in with Israeli consent by allowed trans-border routes, despite the rockets:

for saying which I expect Jim-the-Fool will accuse me yet again of blowing H&C about my detestation of what Israel has degenerated to. I have finally decided that, for all his calls for truces &c, he is just not intelligent enuf to be worth my while bothering with. Don't reply or address me again please, Jim. I hereby vow & swear never again to read any post from stupid you, even ones about ploughboys or jolly tars above the line. Adieu!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 10:30 AM

Shatila - Sabra
There has never been any doubt about the Israeli implication in these massacres, except in the apologist minds of pervs like yourself who insist in defending their part in them – the only evidence you have ever offered is "the Israelis said they didn't do it"
"and it was 30 years ago!"
So what – are you suggesting there should be a moratorium on war crimes?
Simon Wiesenthal retired from (rightly) hunting Nazis in 2003, nearly 60years after the end of the war – should he have taken up gardening instead?
These massacres are no different from the crimes that Wiesenthal was seeking to bring justice to, other than in the numbers of victims, and I have no doubt that many of the criminals the Wiesenthal organisation brought to justice were guilty of far less murders than the thousands that died at Sabra and Shatila at the hands of the Israelis and their thuggish gofers.
The fact that you have to hide behind the length of time the Israeli regime has managed to evade justice is typical of the distortions you have sunk to to defend war criminals
More later as you seem to be incapable of handling anything more than the size of soundbites.
"How does Israel control what Egypt allows?"
Politics - you've already been given the facts of Egypt's desire not to rock the boat - read it again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 09:30 AM

Would not a "stranglehold" prevent the influx of thousands of missiles, and of all those hundreds of rounds fired in celebration of the Tel Aviv bus bomb announced to celebrating crowds by mosque tannoys?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 09:26 AM

How does Israel control what Egypt allows?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 08:29 AM

It would seem to make the point that Israel controls ingress and egress of goods to and from Gaza - even into Egypt. A stranglehold is still a stranglehold even if it is somewhat eased so that the victim does not immediately die.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:49 AM

destroying as it does, Keith's arguments re Israeli control of Gaza.
Which Don?
I see no contradiction to anything I have posted.