BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:51 PM

"a whole population is being punished for supporting Hamas"...
.,,.,.
A population that elected them in a free election on a programme of pursuing precisely these policies, Stringsinger ~~ do not forget that, please?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:39 PM

Matt Gurney is full of propagandistic crap. bobad, you've got to do better than that.

The Palestinians live in an open air prison, harassed, controlled and abused by Israelis.

The idea that enough medicine will take care of a people after they've been bombed unmercifully is laughable. They still haven't recovered from Operation Cast Lead in which a whole population is being punished for supporting Hamas and now this insane
Pillar of Cloud Operation.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:22 PM

Keith, you have stated that I don't have enough information about Israel. Well here's some real information that you should read.

It's the occupation, stupid!

Here's another article you and MGM should read.


Partisan US creates a false equivalency

Where is the money for arms that Israel gets coming from? The American taxpayer.

6,000 Palestinians killed from Israeli agression.

3 Israeli citizens from Hamas rocket attacks.

In the meantime, Palestinian children are suffering from malnutrition.

That's equivalent to starvation.

I don't support the firing of rockets but I know a Zionist oppression reminiscent of
what Jews were subjected to at one time.

Not all Jews are Zionists.

Gilead Sharon is a little monster.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:06 PM

Quite, Keith ~~ but they are all saying that they haven't got any; can't get it in: and now Jim has come right out and said they need the weapons more ~~

"alternatives - to stock up with food, medicines and other essential goods, and dig in (in other words, to accept the reality of a tightening of the screws of an already debilitating siege); or to concentrate on bringing in the wherewithal to offer some sort of resistance"

"Guns before butter": now remind us all, Jim ~~ who said that?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:39 PM

"WHY CANNOT FOOD AND MEDICINES BE BROUGHT IN THRU WHATEVER ROUTE THE WEAPONS ARE ENTERING BY?"

Because they can get as much as they like delivered across the border with Israel, above ground, on big trucks, so why ever would they want to?
Likewise medical supplies.
Blaming mismangement in Gaza on Israel is just propaganda, and these knobs all lap it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 02:47 PM

Seems perfectly logical to me too.
There can be little doubt that Israel is the aggressor here - it has been trying to control the Palestinian economy for twenty years; the last half dozen or so with a full scale blockade.
Lately they have made moves to step up that blockade by working out just how far they dare go without bringing about widespread starvation (such is the stuff holocausts are made of)
If, as the Fox report claims, the passage of goods is a tenuous one, the Palestinians are left with a couple of alternatives - to stock up with food, medicines and other essential goods, and dig in (in other words, to accept the reality of a tightening of the screws of an already debilitating siege); or to concentrate on bringing in the wherewithal to offer some sort of resistance to the proposed Israeli possibly-genocidal aggression.
This latter becomes all the more urgent in light of the fact that the Israeli government is planning to go into partnership with real live knuckles-along-the-floor religious nutters (as if the present mob weren't neanderthal enough already)   
Now what would we do given that choice, I wonder....????
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:43 PM

WHY CANNOT FOOD AND MEDICINES BE BROUGHT IN THRU WHATEVER ROUTE THE WEAPONS ARE ENTERING BY?

Mike, have you ever considered the difference in logistic resources required for bringing in a thousand, say, of those rockets, as compared to food and medical supplies sufficient to have any significant effect on the dietary wellbeing or health of 1.7 million people?

I should have thought the answer would be quite obvious.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:31 PM

""5. At present, there is a shortage of some medical supplies in Gaza due to disagreements between Hamas and the PA, and budgetary difficulties of the Palestinian Authority."""

Budgetary difficulties like the infrastructure which is currently composed of chunks of concrete which used to be the administration of the Gaza strip.

Nothing to do, of course, with Israeli air strikes and shelling?

How facile your responses are!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:54 PM

"WHY CANNOT FOOD AND MEDICINES BE BROUGHT IN THRU WHATEVER ROUTE THE WEAPONS ARE ENTERING BY?"
Politics apparently no friend of Fox News, but:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/20/future-gaza-egypt-border-crossing-critical-point-conflict-between-israel-hamas/
It seems litle more than speculation that anything is getting through at present.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:07 AM

Don't be too hard on him MtheGM, he's obviously lost the plot.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:51 AM

Stringsinger ~~ I have made no 'appraisal' of any sort of the situation. As you say, I lack the information to attempt any such. All I have done is ask what seems to me a pertinent question, which everybody seems to be intent on avoiding answering ~~ a question which applies equally whether the Gazans are well-nourished or not. I repeat it again below -

The weapons are getting in somehow ~~ presumably via Egypt [a Sinai tunnel has been suggested]. If there is hunger and shortage of medicaments in the Gaza Strip, WHY CANNOT FOOD AND MEDICINES BE BROUGHT IN THRU WHATEVER ROUTE THE WEAPONS ARE ENTERING BY?

How about an answer? Someone? Please?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:42 AM

Hillary has brokered a temporary peace deal between Israel and Hamas. As long as Israel maintains its occupational status, there can never be peace.

Keith and MGM are totally misinformed in their appraisal of the situation. It would be great if they could personally spend some time in Gaza and see what's really going on instead of relying on AIPAC and Zionist propaganda. (Are these guys plants?)

Young children are sick and malnourished. Did any Mudcatters see pictures of the attack on Gaza? They speak volumes and shout down the idiotic propaganda from American media.

There is a false equivalency here when you compare Israeli casualties to those of Palestinians.

Hamas firing rockets into Israel is a futile attempt since it only hardens the heart of the reactionaries in Israel, maybe ensuring the reelection of Netanyahu.

It's time for the United Nations to step in and put peacekeepers on the ground of both Israel and Gaza, stop this insane bombing and attack Israeli excuses for being one of the most dangerous war mongers in the world. Israel is not liked throughout the countries of the world for its actions. The U.S. is making a foolhardy alliance with Israel, probably to placate the munitions industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:38 AM

"You're making more & more of a biased booby of yourself, Jim."
And you are making yourself more of a hypocrite
I have in no way defended the actions of either Egypt or Hamas - I have asked you to point out if this is not true - you have failed to respond, as you have on other points (having accused me of just that).
"He hit me as well sir, doesn't wash, neither does your somewhat infantile name -calling bluster.
This is a discussion on the actions of Israel in terrorising and murdering civilians, not on the behaviour of Muslim, or any religiously influenced countries - you want to discuss that, open a thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 07:53 AM

From my previous link:

"In any normal military conflict, Israel would be entirely within its rights to suspend all food shipments, all medical assistance, and all supplies of electricity and water to Gaza until Hamas surrendered, or at least ceased fire. But Israel won't do that. They know full well that Hamas wouldn't be deterred by the suffering of its civilian population. It never is. Even as Israel bombs Gaza, it shows more concern for the people living there than Hamas ever has."

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 07:20 AM

Forgive them for they do not know of what they speak:

While Hamas fires rockets, Israel delivers food and medicine

Either that or they are blinded by their hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 06:59 AM

And now answer Keith's equivalent and perfectly reasonable question as to why the sick don't get treatment in Egypt: tho I daresay we could all think of various possible answers to that one.

You're making more & more of a biased booby of yourself, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 06:55 AM

Exactly, Jim ~~ your link confirms that the weapons are coming in from the Sinai peninsula in Egypt. Just what I've speculated all along. So now tell me, Mr Cleverdick, if they are so starving [which they are not but let that pass to spare your evidently mind-mad-up defective intellect on the matter], then why isn't food coming in the same way? Why can't you bloody well answer that bit if you are such a Mr Knowall?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:44 AM

"Medical supplies were never restricted."
You continue to deny the evidence put forward - the delays by the Israelis have caused shortages, even deaths.
"The restrictions were only implemented two years after Israel left Gaza"
Restrictions were started ten years before the missiles started - it was pre-planed to manipulate the economy of Palestine - read what you have been given.
Not sure which is worse - a liar or a hypocrite.
NFO
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:21 AM

Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.
During, but not caused by the blockade.
Medical supplies were never restricted.

And, why do Gazans want to be treated by the Jews they hate so much?
Why not get treatment in Egypt?

and you and your dummy have consistently ignored, the blockade was facilitated ten years before the bombardment began

You suggest the so-called blockade is the cause of the attacks, but it is actually a consequence. The restrictions were only implemented two years after Israel left Gaza, when it was clear that instead of building a "Singapore of the Middle East", Hamas was interested in importing stockpiles of weapons from places like Iran

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:04 AM

Some more "lies" from Amnesty
Jim Carroll

Health
Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.
Following the Israeli closure of crossings, people with medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza have been required to apply for permits to leave the territory to receive treatment in either foreign hospitals or Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.
The Israeli authorities frequently delay or refuse these permits; some Gazans have died while waiting to obtain permits to leave the territory for medical treatment elsewhere.
World Health Organization (WHO) trucks of medical equipment bound for Gazan hospitals have repeatedly been turned away, without explanation, by Israeli border officials.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:58 AM

"But how are the weapons getting in, when the food & stuff can't"
The question was answered long ago in one of the links provided - but one more time.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/21/gaza-tunnels-smuggling/1718265/
As I pointed out - and you and your dummy have consistently ignored, the blockade was facilitated ten years before the bombardment began - in retaliation. What has cement, corrugated sheeting and farming equipment (not to mention all the other goods spitefully put on the banned list) got to do with weaponry?
The list was compiled to inconvenience, humiliate and control - we know all about how that works. What next - yellow stars?

"Israel is not blocking entrance of medical supplies into Gaza"
http://www.map-uk.org/files/1050_j3475_map_junedon_a4_4pp_lift_(2).pdf

http://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gazas-children-falling-behind-effect-blockade-child-health

"Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, Israel's continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law."
Amnesty International
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 02:13 AM

I am sure you are right about the hundreds of tons of ordnance being imported.
I thought this was the most likely explanation for the shortage of medical supplies, even though everyone knew this was coming.

"4. Israel is not blocking entrance of medical supplies into Gaza. Requests submitted by the international community are answered within 24-72 hours of submission, almost always positively, and Israel has opened the Kerem Shalom passage for transit of medical materials and other goods, despite the danger to personnel at the crossing.

5. At present, there is a shortage of some medical supplies in Gaza due to disagreements between Hamas and the PA, and budgetary difficulties of the Palestinian Authority."

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:20 AM

That wasn't quite 'the answer' to my question Keith: which, yet again, was - How are the weapons getting in, & why can't they get all their other supplies in that way & so become independent of what crossings the Israelis open?

It is presumably over the Egyptian border, which runs quite a long way alongside the Gaza Strip. But why haven't they been bringing everything in that way all along? And how have the Israelis managed to maintain a blockade when that entry was always available anyhow?

An answer to that one? ~~~ please!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:58 PM

""So you acknowledge that HAMAS is guilty of war crimes, in siting weapons in civilian homes, hospitals, and schools?""

No you fool, you can't even manage one sentence without putting words into an opponent's mouth.

I said "I deplore the firing of rockets into Israel by Hamas, just as I deplore the entirely disproportionate response by Israel".

I did not, as you wrongly state, admit anything at all about the siting of those rocket firing points, because I have only the word of the Israeli propaganda machine and a few blinkered, biased, Israeli apologists here on which to base any such admission, and frankly mate you wouldn't get that quality of evidence admitted in any court in Britain.

As for your other points, if you want to go back in history that's OK by me.

Let's do that!

Let's give the Jews a home in Egypt where they started out, and see how that pans out.

My point is that we have a siyuation to deal with here and now, and Ancient History ain't much help.

People are dying now, and that Canadian medic wasn't talking about a weekend fixing up anything BUT CIVILIANS.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:51 PM

At last, the answer to the question I've been asking all along - "Why was Hamas firing rockets into Israel"

From a Palestinian ambassador: "Hamas gets a great deal of economic and political benefit from the terrible destruction because of the large donations that will come from the world and the political image of the organization that stands on the front line against Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:14 PM

Palestinian ambassador tells Israeli counterpart: Hamas must go

"The Hamas offices that were destroyed are not important. The real offices are the mosques, which are connected to a widespread network of tunnels. Everything happens underground," the Palestinian ambassador said. "Hamas has no regrets over the destruction in Gaza. On the contrary. Hamas gets a great deal of economic and political benefit from the terrible destruction because of the large donations that will come from the world and the political image of the organization that stands on the front line against Israel."

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/diplomania/palestinian-ambassador-tells-israeli-counterpart-hamas-must-go.premium-1.479644

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 05:22 PM

The answer is here.

MFA      Humanitarian Aid      Aid to Palestinians      The humanitarian situation in Gaza 18-Nov-2012


   
The humanitarian situation in Gaza

18 Nov 2012
Israel is making a major effort to maintain the fabric of civilian life in Gaza, despite the situation of current hostilities.
   

   Transfer of patients from Gaza to Israel via the Erez crossing (Photo: COGAT)












Crossings

1. Israel is making a major effort to maintain the fabric of civilian life in Gaza, despite the situation of current hostilities. The IDF today (18 Nov) opened the Kerem Shalom crossing for movement of food, medicine and other goods from Israel despite the ongoing rocket attacks on the Israeli population and previous attacks on the crossing.



The Kerem Shalom crossing opened on Tuesday morning (20 Nov) to allow the transfer of 120 trucks of humanitarian aid. However, when it was targeted by rocket fire from Gaza, the IDF was forced to close the crossing to ensure the safety of all those working at the crossing and passing through it. Only 24 trucks of humanitarian aid managed to make it through the crossings prior to the rocket strikes.


Trucks waiting at Kerem Shalom crossing (Photo: IDF Spokesperson)

2. The Erez crossing was open today (18 Nov), as on every other day of Operation Pillar of Defense. Seventy foreign journalists entered Gaza today by way of Erez, 26 Gazans entered Israel for medical treatment, and 23 foreign nationals, representing NGOs who until now had been prevented by Hamas from leaving the Gaza Strip, departed.


Food and Housing Security

1. Gaza is not experiencing food scarcity. Israel is not blocking entrance of goods into Gaza, except for weaponry and dual-use materials. Construction materials can be imported to Gaza under the supervision of international organizations.

2. Israel is continuing the yearly supply of five million cubic meters (1,320,860,250 gallons) of water to Gaza, despite the rocket attacks on Israeli cities and towns.

3. UNRWA (UN Relief and Works Agency) reports (17 Nov 2012) that despite some displacement of families due to hostilities, "there hasn't been any need to provide emergency humanitarian assistance or to open UNRWA facilities as emergency shelters."


Medical Care

1. Between January-October 2012, approximately 14,500 patients and their accompanying chaperones entered Israel from Gaza for medical treatment. 99% of the medical requests by Palestinian residents of Gaza were approved by Israel.

2. The World Health Organization has reported a ten-day slowdown in referral process for Gaza patients due to disagreements between the Ramallah and Gaza Health Ministries.

3. Gaza hospitals are currently operating at 80% capacity (17 Nov), slightly higher than routine periods.

4. Israel is not blocking entrance of medical supplies into Gaza. Requests submitted by the international community are answered within 24-72 hours of submission, almost always positively, and Israel has opened the Kerem Shalom passage for transit of medical materials and other goods, despite the danger to personnel at the crossing.

5. At present, there is a shortage of some medical supplies in Gaza due to disagreements between Hamas and the PA, and budgetary difficulties of the Palestinian Authority.

6. UNRWA reports that all of its 21 health centers are open and functioning. Of UNRWA's 12,000 staff members in Gaza, only one person has sustained injuries in the hostilities, and those are minor.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/HumanitarianAid/Palestinians/Humanitarian_situation_Gaza_18-Nov-2012.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:40 PM

But how are the weapons getting in, when the food & stuff can't? Stop havering, please, & answer that simple question.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:35 PM

"Why has nobody responded to the entirely accurate statement that Gaza is not under sufficient siege or blockade as to prevent food & medical supplies entering"
Possibly for the same reason that nobody has responded to the fact (from reliable sources such as the U.N., the World Health Organisation, and Amnesty International) that it has been reported that there is malnutrition among %10 of Palestinian children.
I try to comment on what I am sure about - your "entirely accurate" statement" runs counter to many other equally "entirely accurate" statements. I have chosen not to comment because, while I tend to have an opinion, I choose not to give it here because I simply don't know for certain.
On the other hand, why have the supporters of Israel not commented on the morality of one people taking control of another people by establishing a blockade in the first place.
You have been given the information that the rocket bombardment was in retaliation to the blockade, which was started 10 years earlier.
The constant claim by pro Israeli supporters is that a cease fire depends on the cessation of the rockets; a Palestinian condition for that cessation is the easing of the blockade - last night's air-raid on Gaza was the worst yet - making who the aggressors?
In the end the allowing through of "food parcels and medical supplies" is a meaningless gesture The blockade stops essential building materials and farming materials getting through, so preventing the rebuilding of homes destroyed by the Israelis, and also preventing the Palestinians from feeding and financing themslves - "we've cut your legs off, but we'll let you have some crutches".
It is the tried and proven ghetto mentality of "isolate and control" as the people putting it into practice here should well know.
I don't belittle the olive groves - I think that with the chemical warfare, mass murder of refugees, blockade, Berlin Wall, destruction of homes, constant humiliation, malnutrition..... things have gone well beyond that.
"How about you putting your bat for the Arabs & Muslims down for a second"
As I said, I choose to comment on the effect on civilians - show where that is not the case.
Am I to gather that you believe they deserve all they get.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:48 PM

the continual mass murder of civilians,
There is no murder that I am aware of.
(attempted murder of the bus passengers today)
Keith's continued denial of published figures of the killing of women and children

I have not denied the figures.
The deaths are easily confirmed.
I do suspect that the civilian deaths will prove to have been exaggerated again.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:30 PM

It should be called to everyone's attention that at one time Palestinians and Israelis worked well and peaceably together to produce Joffa oranges, a great culinary specialty. The element that got in the way with this collaboration was the advent of Zionism, a growing intolerant movement that denigrated outsiders.

I'm not attempting to defend Islamic violence here but to point out that
"Pillar of Cloud Operation" or "Cast Lead" was totally insane as an antidote to any lasting peace.

I will go further by saying it is my contention that "religion" is at the bottom of this problem on both sides. If you want me to qualify that by saying "fundamentalist religion", I think that's not easy to do. Israel is becoming a theocracy more and more.

There are Jews in Israel today who decry and protest what Netanyahu, Lieberman and Sharon are saying and doing. You can read about them in Ha'aretz but they will not be covered in U.S. pro-AIPAC media. Check out Uri Avnery and the peace organization,
"Gush Shalom".

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:18 PM

'Perhaps you'd like to comment on Keith's "it's all lies" stance here - or not?
You both have the reported figures.'
.,,.,.
Sorry, Jim ~~ genuinely missed this, so taken was I with your 'batting' metaphor.

No, I don't think it's all lies. My present position, though you persist in disbelieving it, is that anything said to the detriment of Israel is probably true ~~ except that the Gaza situation is not so simple as so many others [see below] ~~ like olive-groves &c, which you persist for some reason as regarding as a minor, even frivolous, example but seems to me obviously key ~~ this depriving of hardworking people of their means to livelihood because some who have attacked Israel might have hidden there, is particularly & peculiarly indefensible, imo.

You accuse me of not answering key points. I accuse you of the same right back ~~ Why has nobody responded to the entirely accurate statement that Gaza is not under sufficient siege or blockade as to prevent food & medical supplies entering, because it shares a border with Egypt, thru which it has presumably imported its missiles, now long-range enuf for attacking Tel Aviv & Jerusalem. Otherwise how did they get those in, eh smartarse? Did the Israelis not notice those going in, hidden among the food parcels or something? So why can't they bring in some humanitarian supplies and sustenance which the Israelis are supposed to be depriving them of by their blockade that way also?

How about you putting your bat for the Arabs & Muslims down for a second, and finding some answer to that one? Please...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:02 PM

Sorry Mike - your destruction of olive groves, as serious as it may have been, pales into insignificance beside the continual mass murder of civilians, which is the subject in hand here and which is what I have chosen to comment on.
Your praising with faint (or non-existent) damns what Israel has become says everything that needs to be said as far as I'm concerned.
I asked your opinion of Keith's continued denial of published figures of the killing of women and children - I got no reply, nor did I expect one - won't waste my typing finger again.
Going by his somewhat clumsy dismissal of all the facts that do not fit his 'grand plan', coupled with his obvious dishonesty, Keith has the excuse of 'having all the lights on with nobody at home'; there was a time I put you higher up the food chain.
If I want advice on not "making a fool of myself" I'm pretty sure I could do better elsewhere.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:47 PM

Jim: I am honestly not 'solidly batting' for them; merely trying to get the history of what happened before and just after the Independence of 1948 accurately fixed in the minds of some who really are misrepresenting it, confusing the cause & effect of the refugee situation, &c; and also trying to get a see-both-sides perspective on the Gaza situation which is by no means as cut'n'dried in either direction as some are urging. I yield to no-one, as I have said many times above on this thread and many others [see the 'arseholes' thread too], in my disappointment at the betrayal that has taken place over the last couple of decades of all that we hoped for, & my hatred of the present entity that has resulted thence. I will continue to 'bat' for the just memory of Ben Gurion & Golda Meir ~~ why shouldn't I? ~ but I leave the wicket and refuse to bat on for Begin, Netanyahu, & all that vile lot, who have come along and ploughed up the pitch to make it impossible for me to go on batting. Belief that the establishment of Israel in 1948 promised at the time to be beneficial to the world is not incompatible with the recognition that, alas, that was not the way it turned out. Nor does that latter realisation conflict with the recognition that most of the other states in the region are no great shakes either, and some [try the blasphemer-beheading·thieves-hand-amputating·adultress-publicly-barebottom-caning Saudi for size], a whole bloody lot worse.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:42 PM

DonT,

"All of this with no monitors, few stethoscopes, one ultrasound machine. "

Well, if they brought in those supplies instead of rockets and missiles, they would have them, wouldn't they?




And why isn't it EGYPT's fault? THEY have a border with Gaza, too- yet the Palestinians can only use the Israeli border???

Are you saying that the Palestinians are idiots, or that the Egyptians allow even less through- AND YOU KEEP QUIET about that?

YES, I call you bigoted.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:18 PM

DonT,

"
And you have the goddam nerve to call me bigotted.
"

I call it honesty, not nerve.

I judge you by your posts, and the fact that you attack people rather than the facts they present. You apply one set of standards to Israel, and a different one to Hamas- this is bigotry.

When you have one set of standards for both, and debate the facts rather than make personal attacks on those you disagree with, I will no longer state that you are being a bigot- Until then, you will be what you show yourself to be by your own words.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:04 PM

"Friendly warning, Jim. You are making a manifest fool of yourself again. Any more of that and you shall not go to the ball!"
Friendly warning back
Once again your hypocrisy is showing - you are paying lip service to objecting at what Israel has become while stolidly batting for them.
Perhaps you'd like to comment on Keith's "it's all lies" stance here - or not?
You both have the reported figures.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:43 AM

And remember that the Arab 'refugees' were not expelled by the Israelis, but told to get out of the way for the time being in 1948 to give the invading Muslim-nation forces who invaded with the purpose of destroying the new state which the United Nations had authorised; but as they failed the departed Palestinians had nowhere to come back to, which was the fault of the Egyptians, Lebanese, Syrians et al, not of the Israelis.

~M~

[cross-ref to my simultaneous post on the 'Israeli Leaders Arseholes' thread]

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:20 PM

DonT,

So you acknowledge that HAMAS is guilty of war crimes, in siting weapons in civilian homes, hospitals, and schools?

Have you thought about calling for THEM to stop?

I see ONLY criticism of Israel until we ask, then you say that you object to both sides. When you start mentioning the facts that the Palestinians are treated far better by the Israelis than they were by the Jordanians ( from 1948 to 1967) and that Egypt has a border with Gaza, and if Gazan's are starving it is equally EGYPT'S fault, you might be considered less of a bigot.



And why should the border for the two state solution NOT be the last one accepted by the Arabs, from 1924 or so? The 77% of the Mandate territory the Arabs were given was in proportion to the ENTIRE Moslem population- and JEWS were forbidden to settle in the Arab portion.

And why should the Palestinians get any land or compensation for their 640,000 refugees from the formation of Israel when the 820,000 Jews who were driven from Arab nations got nothing?

Look at the number of Arab Moslems who stayed in Israel, and the number of Jews allowed to remain in Arab nations- WHO WOULD YOU SAY conducted the ethnic cleansing?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:42 PM

We do know that civilians have been killed and wounded Don.
Inevitable when Hamas illegally sites its weapons and fighters among them.
Why does Gaza have thousands of missiles but no medicines?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:12 PM

Particular attention to the report of the Canadian medic, who was in Gaza by chance, and spent the weekend in Shifa Hospital ER.

What axe would he have to grind by lying?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:05 PM

I very rarely do cut 'n paste, but this strikes me as being the only way to put it under the noses of those who don't follow links to anything that might disturb their smug certainties. So here goes.

- snip - ""Four of the deaths occurred as a result of Israeli military firing artillery shells on youngsters playing soccer. Moreover, 52 civilians had been wounded, of which six were women and 12 were children. (Since we began composing this text, the Palestinian death toll has risen, and continues to rise.)

Articles that do report on the killings overwhelmingly focus on the killing of Palestinian security personnel. For example, an Associated Press article published in the CBC world news on November 13, entitled 'Israel mulls resuming targeted killings of Gaza militants,' mentions absolutely nothing of civilian deaths and injuries. It portrays the killings as 'targeted assassinations.' The fact that casualties have overwhelmingly been civilians indicates that Israel is not so much engaged in "targeted" killings, as in "collective" killings, thus once again committing the crime of collective punishment.

Another AP item on CBC news from November 12 reads 'Gaza rocket fire raises pressure on Israel government.' It features a photo of an Israeli woman gazing on a hole in her living room ceiling. Again, no images, nor mention of the numerous bleeding casualties or corpses in Gaza. Along the same lines, a BBC headline on November 12 reads 'Israel hit by fresh volley of rockets from Gaza.' Similar trends can be illustrated for European mainstream papers.

News items overwhelmingly focus on the rockets that have been fired from Gaza, none of which have caused human casualties. What is not in focus are the shellings and bombardments on Gaza, which have resulted in numerous severe and fatal casualties. It doesn't take an expert in media science to understand that what we are facing is at best shoddy and skewed reporting, and at worst willfully dishonest manipulation of the readership."" - snip -


-snip - ""An extract of a report sent by a Canadian medic who happened to be in Gaza and helped out in Shifa hospital ER over the weekend says: "the wounded were all civilians with multiple puncture wounds from shrapnel: brain injuries, neck injuries, hemo-pneumo thorax, pericardial tamponade, splenic rupture, intestinal perforations, slatted limbs, traumatic amputations.

All of this with no monitors, few stethoscopes, one ultrasound machine. …. Many people with serious but non life threatening injuries were sent home to be re-assessed in the morning due to the sheer volume of casualties. The penetrating shrapnel injuries were spooky. Tiny wounds with massive internal injuries. …

There was very little morphine for analgesia."

Apparently such scenes are not newsworthy for the New York Times, the CBC, or the BBC.

Bias and dishonesty with respect to the oppression of Palestinians is nothing new in Western media and has been widely documented. Nevertheless, Israel continues its crimes against humanity with full acquiescence and financial, military and moral support from our governments, the U.S., Canada and the EU.

Netanyahu is currently garnering Western diplomatic support for additional operations in Gaza, which makes us worry that another Cast Lead may be on the horizon. In fact, the very recent events are confirming such an escalation has already begun, as today's death-count climbs.

The lack of widespread public outrage at these crimes is a direct consequence of the systematic way in which the facts are withheld and/or of the skewed way these crimes are portrayed.

We wish to express our outrage at the reprehensible media coverage of these acts in the mainstream (corporate) media.

We call on journalists around the world working for corporate media outlets to refuse to be instruments of this systematic policy of disguise. We call on citizens to inform themselves through independent media, and to voice their conscience by whichever means is accessible to them.

Hagit Borer, U.K.
Antoine Bustros, Canada
Noam Chomsky, U.S.
David Heap, Canada
Stephanie Kelly, Canada
Máire Noonan, Canada
Philippe Prévost, France
Verena Stresing, France
Laurie Tuller, France"" - snip -

And those signatories don't look like a who's who of bigotted Palestinian apologists to me.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 02:45 PM

""Don T saying "We repeatedly dispute both sides arguments and freely admit both are at fault." as something other than a malicious lie to support his blatant bigotry.""

Almost every post I have made on this subject, both here and on other threads, has been a direct rebuttal of some one eyed blinkered assertion that Israel has never harmed anyone and all Gaza's Palestinian citizens are de facto terrorists. and all through I have had to repeat for the benefit of those same one eyed, blinkered Israeli apologists that I do in fact deplore the actions of those firing the rockets,.....just as much as I deplore the disproportionate and indiscriminate response.

And you have the goddam nerve to call me bigotted.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 10:26 AM

"Israel gains nothing by killing civilians. Each death harms them.
They have every incentive to avoid killing civilians."

That is generally true in all wars - but it doesn't stop it happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 09:32 AM

"Obviously, Hamas has banked on the idea that a lie can reach halfway around the world before the truth can catch up to it,"

Amply illustrated here at the Mudcat Café.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 09:19 AM

Kuhlood Badawi, an information and media coordinator for OCHA, the UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, posted a link to the picture of a young girl covered in blood being carried by her father, along with the tweet: "Palestine is bleeding. Another child killed by #Israel... Another father carrying his child to a Grave in #Gaza."

The picture, it emerged, was published in 2006 by Reuters and was of a Palestinian girl who died in an accident unrelated to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,UN watcher
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 09:11 AM

Hamas has posted photographs from other conflicts on social media in recent days, claiming they are victims of Israeli actions in Gaza.

On Thursday, the Izzadin Kassam tweeted a photograph of a weeping father with his dead, bloody child in his arms, while doctors look on.

Soon after, Twitter followers pointed out that the photo was taken at the Dar al-Shifa Hospital in Aleppo, Syria, and originally came from a slideshow on The Guardian website.

Izzadin Kassam deleted the tweet, but it was immortalized in screencaps posted on Facebook and Twitter.

On Saturday, pro-Palestinian activists co-opted another photograph, this time of an injured infant held by a rescue worker.

A Twitter user named ProSyriana wrote "even this young injured Palestinian child doesn't seem surprised or scared, used to Israeli terrorism."

However, Facebook and Twitter users identified the photo as one previously posted by Avital Leibovitch, the IDF spokeswoman to the international media, of a baby wounded by a Hamas rocket attack.

A graphic shared dozens of times on Facebook also said that the rescue worker's reflective vest said "Kiryat Malachi" on it.

"It's quite egregious," Jewish Agency director of new media Avi Mayer said of the two incidents. "One can expect little else from an organization that prides itself on lies. Deception is [Hamas's] way of life."

Mayer said such false captions on photos are not a new phenomenon and did not come as a surprise to social media experts, explaining that the truth is the best way to combat lies.

"Other pro-Israel social media users did an excellent job," he stated.

"Using online research tools to dig into history and reveal the truth is very effective."

"Obviously, Hamas has banked on the idea that a lie can reach halfway around the world before the truth can catch up to it," Natalie Menaged, director of education for Hasbara Fellowships, said.

Menaged said image search tools have made it easy to verify a picture's authenticity in minutes, and many individuals have taken it upon themselves to do so and indentify false reports.

"While we have to be vigilant about anti-Israel propaganda online, it's even more important for us to spread trustful information.

In particular, we should focus on spreading personal stories, photos and pictures of Israelis under fire," she added.

Mayer said that CNN's Anderson Cooper recently apologized for using footage in which a person who appeared to be dead was "not quite as dead a few moments later," the Jewish Agency representative quipped.

"It's commendable when news organizations are able to correct early impressions," Mayer said, adding that he hopes others will follow suit.

"Truth is often the first casualty in those situations," Mayer explained, "and it's our responsibility to bring it back to life. I'm proud to be part of that effort."

-Jerusalem Post

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:37 AM

1. Israel obviously doesn't give a shit about dead Palestinian civilians, even according to their Deputy Prime Minister.

This from Israel's Deputy Minister For Foreign Affairs.
(Guardian)
In the face of this undeniable truth, the usual accusation is that Israel is responding with "disproportionate force" or carrying out "collective punishment". I urge all who make this accusation to consider that Israel has successfully targeted in excess of 1,300 weapons caches, rocket launchers and other elements of Hamas's terrorist infrastructure. Yet despite this, the number of Palestinian casualties remains around one for every 13 strikes, the majority killed being active members of Hamas and combatants.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:14 AM

"The economic blockade has meant that Israel has controlled in a most brutal way the movement of Palestinians, food, water, medicines and other basic essentials."


This is obviously from a bigot who hates Israel. LOOKING AT A MAP ( Which seems beyond many here) THERE IS A BORDER WITH EGYPT. Since the Palestinians can bring in ( large) missiles, the Israelis OBVIOUSLY do not control any more than their own border.

When I see the condemnation of Egypt for it's "most brutal way " of controlling "the movement of Palestinians, food, water, medicines and other basic essentials." I will consider someone like Don T saying "We repeatedly dispute both sides arguments and freely admit both are at fault." as something other than a malicious lie to support his blatant bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:49 AM

1. Israel obviously doesn't give a shit about dead Palestinian civilians, even according to their Deputy Prime Minister.

Yes it does, even according to him.

2. Israel has not, for many years, given a shit for World opinion.
Yes it does. It relies on Western support.

3. You gullible people swallow everything the Israelis claim without question. We repeatedly dispute both sides arguments and freely admit both are at fault.

I have never accepted anything without good reason.

So your last sentence in its entirety is A DAMN LIE!
No.