BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:08 AM

""Yes, there are many and terrible deaths of innocents in Gaza.
Israel is targeting missiles and missilemen.
Israel gains nothing by killing civilians. Each death harms them.
They have every incentive to avoid killing civilians.
The militants have a propaganda victory every time a civilian is killed.
They have every incentive to fake them, exaggerate them, and to put children in harms way.
Be critical and suspicious of what BOTH sides say.
You gullible people swallow everything the Jihadists claim without question.""

1. Israel obviously doesn't give a shit about dead Palestinian civilians, even according to their Deputy Prime Minister.

2. Israel has not, for many years, given a shit for World opinion.

3. You gullible people swallow everything the Israelis claim without question. We repeatedly dispute both sides arguments and freely admit both are at fault.

So your last sentence in its entirety is A DAMN LIE!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:01 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger - PM
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:05 PM

Keith, maybe you better take a look at this.

Flatten Gaza/Gilad Sharon

All you need to do is see pictures of the latest "Pillar of Cloud Operation" and then tell me
that the fraudulent UN Watcher data is correct.

This is genocide.""

Damn right String.

The comments from Sharon and even more those of the Deputy Prime Minister are worthy of the worst of this planet's historical tyrants (avoiding the most obvious comparison).

These two are monsters without conscience.

Keith and Bobad, your assertions about Israel's honourable intent are seriously off beam.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:45 AM

""Perhaps Israel should stop providing shelters and anti-missiles to make their job easier.
Perhaps they should just line up at the border to allow themselves to be executed.""

I won't bother to dignify that nonsensical, emotional crap with a response.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:41 AM

""I could be wrong about bomb casings.""

Indeed you could, and you are.

And not only about the casings.

You state categorically that the purpose of the bombs was destruction, not killing.

Now, what exactly do you think happens within the blast radius of a 2000 lb high explosive bomb?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:19 AM

A good source for links to ongoing events in Palestine:

https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Ifor
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:41 AM

The military air and sea attack on Gaza [ itself a city of refugees and the children and grandchildren of refugees ] is a disgusting international war crime.

For six years its population of 1.6 millon has been beseiged by Istrael...a state armed and backed by the USA and the UK.

The economic blockade has meant that Israel has controlled in a most brutal way the movement of Palestinians, food, water, medicines and other basic essentials.

Four years ago Israel launched a savage attack on the city which killed 1400, mainly civilans and including over 300 Palestinian children. Nothing was safe from its savagery...schools, colleges, hospitals, clinics , apartment blocks, houses and a United Nations shelter were all blown up or attacked. Whole family groups were murdered by Israeli soldiers.

We are now seeing the latest round of the ongoing suffering of the Palestinian people.Once again Israeli fanatics are murdering at will ...babies, children ,teenagers.It does not Seem to matter to them.

The response of Obama in America and Hague and Cameron in the UK has been shameful.

Join the mass protest in central London next saturday which wll call for a halt to the atack and an end to the economic and military blockade of Gaza.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:23 AM

Friendly warning, Jim. You are making a manifest fool of yourself again. Any more of that and you shall not go to the ball!

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:18 AM

No.
I am saying that the Israeli info would be immediately seen to be a lie by those on the ground if not true.
It would not be repeated by the aid organisations if not true.
That gives me reason to believe it.

Hamas has every incentive to exaggerate civilian casualties and minimise its own.
It did just that last time.
That gives me good reason to doubt.

No gullible dupe me!

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:12 AM

So what you are sayng is that you can only rely on information (from the same source) that suits your own particular prejudice
Sorry - I'll try to remember that!
Really must go - busy day!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:53 AM

The info was originally from an Israeli Government report, and picked up by the Aid and Relief sites.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/HumanitarianAid/Palestinians/Humanitarian_situation_Gaza_18-Nov-2012.htm


Before you sneer, Israel would not be so stupid as to humiliate itself with a lie that would be immediately obvious to every aid worker and journalist in Gaza.

The fact that you are unable to believe the truth shows that your judgement of Israel is false.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:50 AM

"All those casualty reports are sourced from Hamas."
Now why did I know you were going to say that!!!

http://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/ongoing-israeli-offensive-gaza-palestinian-civilian-deaths-0

Have a nice day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:30 AM

UN Watcher got his info. from this Humanitarian Information site.
http://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/humanitarian-situation-gaza-18-nov-2012?utm_source=feedburner&utm_med

All those casualty reports are sourced from Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:18 AM

"I believe UN Watcher."
As he?she took the information straight from The Jerusalem Post, I have no doubt that you do, unbiased little chappie that you are!

"Reported by who Jim?"
Don't suppose for a second that you'll acknowledge any of these as anything but "lies", but plenty more to choose from - The Times, The Guardian, The BBC....

"In all, 87 Palestinians, including 50 civilians, have been killed in the six-day onslaught and 720 have been wounded."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57551631/israels-assault-on-palestinian-militants-in-gaza-takes-rising-toll-on-civilians/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CbsNewsTheEarlyShowParenting+(CBS+News%3A+The+Early+Show%3A+Parenting)

"In all, 87 Palestinians, including 50 civilians, have been killed in the six-day onslaught and 720 have been wounded."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/19/israel-gaza-conflict-2012-civilian-casualties_n_2157437.html

"Day Six of Israeli Attack on Gaza: Death toll rises to 115, over 900 injured; Media building targeted again; Cease-fire talks continue"
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/day-six-of-israeli-attack-on-gaza-death-toll-rises-to-115-over-900-injured-media-building-targeted-again-cease-fire-talks-continue.html

"In total, Sunday's air strikes on Gaza killed nine children ranging in age from one to 11, according to figures provided by al-Kidra."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/11/18/israel-widens-operation-in-gaza.html

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 02:31 AM

I believe UN Watcher.
It is not genocide.
Yes, there are many and terrible deaths of innocents in Gaza.
Israel is targeting missiles and missilemen.
Israel gains nothing by killing civilians. Each death harms them.
They have every incentive to avoid killing civilians.
The militants have a propaganda victory every time a civilian is killed.
They have every incentive to fake them, exaggerate them, and to put children in harms way.
Be critical and suspicious of what BOTH sides say.
You gullible people swallow everything the Jihadists claim without question.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:17 PM

Two can play at this game Stringsinger

Hamas: Kill Christians and Jews "to the last one"

"Allah, oh our Lord, vanquish Your enemies, enemies of the religion
[Islam] in all places.
Allah, strike the Jews and their sympathizers,
the Christians and their supporters,
the Communists and their adherents.
Allah, count them and kill them to the last one, and don't leave even one."

Kill Christians and Jews

This is genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:05 PM

Keith, maybe you better take a look at this.

Flatten Gaza/Gilad Sharon

All you need to do is see pictures of the latest "Pillar of Cloud Operation" and then tell me
that the fraudulent UN Watcher data is correct.

This is genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:34 PM

The last reported casualty Palestinian figures figures are somewhere between 60 and 84, again mostly non combatants
Reported by who Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:27 PM

Yes, well that ought to be a clinching post from UN Observer, which seems firmly based on actuality. But I don't expect it will stop the usual barrage of negative comments from Uno-Hoo & Yoozhal-Susp...

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,UN watcher
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:25 PM

The Humanitarian Situation in Gaza
November 18, 2012

Crossings
1. Israel is making a major effort to maintain the fabric of civilian life in Gaza, despite the situation of current hostilities. The IDF opened today the Kerem Shalom crossing for movement of food, medicine and other goods from Israel despite the ongoing rocket attacks on the Israeli population and previous attacks on the crossing.

2. The Erez crossing was open today, as on every other day of Operation Pillar of Defense. Seventy foreign journalists entered Gaza today by way of Erez. Twenty Gazans entered Israel for medical treatment, and twenty-three foreign nationals, representing NGOs who until now had been prevented by Hamas from leaving the Gaza Strip, departed.

Food and Housing Security
1. Gaza is not experiencing food scarcity. Israel is not blocking entrance of goods into Gaza, except for weaponry and dual-use materials. Construction materials can be imported to Gaza under the supervision of international organizations.

2. Israel is continuing the yearly supply of five million cubic meters (1,320,860,250 gallons) of water to Gaza, despite the rocket attacks on Israeli cities and towns.

3. UNRWA (UN Relief and Works Agency) reports (17.11.12) that despite some displacement of families due to hostilities, "there hasn't been any need to provide emergency humanitarian assistance or to open UNRWA facilities as emergency shelters."

Medical Care
1. Between January – October 2012, approximately 14,500 patients and their accompanying chaperones entered Israel from Gaza for medical treatment. 99% of the medical requests by Palestinian residents of Gaza were approved by Israel.

2. The World Health Organization has reported a ten-day slowdown in referral process for Gaza patients due to disagreements between the Ramallah and Gaza Health Ministries.

3. Gaza hospitals are currently operating at 80% capacity (17.11), slightly higher than routine periods.

4. Israel is not blocking entrance of medical supplies into Gaza. Requests submitted by the international community are answered within 24-72 hours of submission, almost always positively, and Israel has opened the Kerem Shalom passage for transit of medical materials and other goods, despite the danger to personnel at the crossing.

5. At present, there is a shortage of some medical supplies in Gaza due to disagreements between Hamas and the PA, and budgetary difficulties of the Palestinian Authority.

6. UNRWA reports that all of its 21 health centers are open and functioning. Of UNRWA's 12,000 staff members in Gaza, only one person has sustained injuries in the hostilities, and those are minor.

Electricity
1. Israel is supplying 125 megawatts of electricity to the Gaza Strip from the power station in Ashkelon despite the rocket attacks on Israel's population, and on Ashkelon itself.

2. Gaza continues to suffer from power outages due to a deliberate policy of Hamas, which opposes import of fuel from Israel. As a result, the Gaza power station is operating at 20% capacity.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 01:47 PM

There is no question whatsoever that the bombing campaigns by both the British and Germans was largely directed to terrorising the civilian population. The hundreds of thousands killed were not accidental victims or "collateral damage" - they werte the intended targete.

"Allied air bosses have made the long awaited decision to adopt deliberate terror bombing of great German population centres as a ruthless expedient to hasten Hitler's doom." From an Associated Press correspondent's cable following a press conference following the Dresden raid in February 1945

"It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed...." From a telegram sent by Winston Churchill to military Chiefs of Staff on March 28th 1945.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 12:20 PM

"The blood of every one of the Palestinian casualties is squarely on the hands of Hamas.
The feller wot pulls the trigger is responsible for the killing despite the claims of "nuffin to do wiv me guv"
It is the Israelis who are slaughtering men women and children at preset (take a peep at the television tonight - quicker than starving them to death I suppose!
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the politics, there can be no excuse for the slaughter of children - you obviously don't agree
"Not sure how accurate this statement is..."
Then prove its inaccuracy
As I (no - Keith) rightly said - "No government answerable to its people could allow such terrorising of its civilians without striking back" or are you also claiming that 10% of malnutrition among Palestinian children either isn't happening or should be ignored?
The first person I ever heard describe the Israeli regime as "fascist" was a Mancunian Jew who had lost many of her relatives to the Holocaust. I thought she was overstating her case - it seems I was wrong.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:25 AM

The process of blockading Gaza began in 1991; rockets attacks into Israel as retaliation didn't begin until 2001 – 10 years later.


Not sure how accurate this statement is...


BTW, WHY is Israel so bad, when the EGYPTIAN border is right there? Do Palestinians prefer Kosher food? They have NO problem getting arms and missiles in- WHY would they be starving UNLESS they wanted to KILL JEWS more than to FEED THEIR CHILDREN???

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:21 AM

The blood of every one of the Palestinian casualties is squarely on the hands of Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:17 AM

The last reported casualty Palestinian figures figures are somewhere between 60 and 84, again mostly non combatants
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:12 AM

Interesting to see the usual suspects describing themselves as middle-of-the-road while taking their usual position on the extreme right.

"I commend to any would-be future poster on this site this morning's article on The Times"
I read The Times report with interest – if it is to be believed it helps to underline the fact that you couldn't squeeze a credit card between the bigotry and ruthlessness of the two regimes.
Unfortunately it doesn't quite tie up with many of the facts surrounding the present conflict.

History of present violence:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/11/who-started-the-israel-gaza-conflict/265374/

Nor does it mention what has to be the overlying cause of the conflict – the long-term blockade of goods essential for the day-to-day existence of the Palestinians, and the proposal to escalate that action by calculating just how far can the 'forbidden goods' .   

"Gaza is not occupied or starved."
The repetition of this piece of nonsense only serves to show it for the piece of distortion it is – Palestine is being deprived of the right to feed itself and the Israelis are in the process of measuring exactly how far they are able to go without causing mass starvation.
The process of blockading Gaza began in 1991; rockets attacks into Israel as retaliation didn't begin until 2001 – 10 years later.
http://www.myaguarnieri.com/2011/07/when-did-the-israeli-blockade-of-gaza-begin/

Rockets will stop when blockade is lifted
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/18/gaza-hamas-israel-demands/1712561/

The Palestinian authorities would be insane to give in to Israeli demands now without first achieving an end to the blockade and to the expansionist policy of a government which has chosen as a running-mate in the forthcoming election, a party which believes itself to have a millennium-old god-given right to all the territory in dispute.
Among the first victims of the present violence was a tenement block – 22 dead, mostly women and children. The first reported Palestinian casualty figure was 43 dead, 382 injured (245 adults, 137 children).
So far – 3 Israeli dead.
The Israelis also attacked 2 dwellings being used by the press - getting rid of the witnesses so they can give a repeat performance of Shatila and Sabra.
As somebody rightly puts it
"No government answerable to its people could allow such terrorising of its civilians without striking back
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:34 AM

The side that does so(stop) will gain immensely.

If Hamas stops, both sides will gain immensely.
If Israel stops, Hamas can just launch its Jew killing missiles with impunity.
Perhaps Israel should stop providing shelters and anti-missiles to make their job easier.
Perhaps they should just line up at the border to allow themselves to be executed.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:21 AM

I could be wrong about bomb casings.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:56 AM

Transferred from the other thread which was started for a different purpose.

I have no sympathy whatever for the intransigence displayed on both sides.

I just hate and despise the "Israel is in the right, can do no wrong and must not be criticised for any action, however disproportionate" blether we get whenever this subject comes up, from the hard wired little Israeli apologist cadre.

If we can't recognise that BOTH ARE EQUALLY GUILTY of crimes against humanity, how in hell can we expect them tpo realise and come to their senses.

SOMEBODY has to STOP!

The side that does so will gain immensely.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:56 AM

were explosive or incendiary with no added shrapnel.
Just the case, and as thin as possible to allow more HE for maximum blast.
No nails or ball bearings added.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:48 AM

Damn. Didn't finish.

The bombs that caused those scars were also HE, with highly fragmentable steel casings.

They didn't only scar buildings.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:44 AM

""The bombs were HE and incendiary, not anti-personnel.""

I'd really love to hear your explanation of the thousands of shrapnel scarred buildings In London, Liverpool, Coventry,........

Need I go on?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:42 AM

I commend to any would-be future poster on this site this morning's article on The Times op-ed page by Amir Taheri ['an Iranian-born ... author based in Europe' - wiki; well-known authority on the politics of the region], analysing the fissiparous nature of the various Hamas factions in Gaza, & those in the Arab world in general, in the context of the present situation there. Essential reading, I should say, to qualify anyone to make informed contribution to this thread.

~M~

NB Mr Taheri's origin & antecedents, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 01:49 AM

I agree your last sentence, but not the first.
The bombs were HE and incendiary, not anti-personnel.
The people received enough warning to take shelter in plenty of time.
The effects of the fire storm were not predicted.

Of course it was a human catastrophe and people died in thousands, but the aim was destruction not death

The aim of Hamas bombs is death not destruction, or they would be just HE without the nails and ball-bearings.
They are launched only to kill and terrorise Jews, in furtherance of they covenant to kill Jews everywhere.

You are in denial about Hamas.
You make excuses.
They do not mean what they say.
Yes they do, and their actions bear it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:59 PM

You're suggesting that carpet bombing in the war was not directly intended to kill noncombatants in enormous numbers, Keith?

It was a horrible thing in a horrible war. Horrible things happen in all horrible wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 02:03 PM

The document(Hamas Covenant) also quotes Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews, without distinction of whether they are in Israel or elsewhere.[26] It presents the Arab-Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam, adding that the only way to engage in this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of jihad, until victory or martyrdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 01:47 PM

This is from Wiki, but is widely reported.
In a public address broadcast on Hamas's Al-Aqsa TV channel on 5 November 2010 (as translated by MEMRI) al-Zahar appeared to justify the persecution of Jews down the ages and to promise that the Jews were destined to be annihilated. Al-Zahar stated that "We are no weaker or less honorable than the peoples that expelled and annihilated the Jews. The day we expel them is drawing near... We extended our hands to feed these hungry dogs and wild beasts, and they devoured our fingers. We have learned the lesson – there is no place for you among us, and you have no future among the nations of the world. You are headed to annihilation." [5]

[edit] Incitement controversyDuring the 2008-2009 Gaza War in which it is estimated that 1,200 or more Palestinians (of whom 412 were children and a hundred were women) and 13 Israelis died,[6] al-Zahar, during a television broadcast, was reported to have said that the Israelis "have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine... They have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people."[7] This remark was widely reported as advocating the "murder" of Jewish children worldwide

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 01:39 PM

McG, the bombs dropped on Germany, and the munitions being used against the rockets, are not anti-personnel.
The former were explosive or incendiary with no added shrapnel.

Hamas' rockets carry nails and ball-bearings instead of extra explosive.
They are just for killing Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 01:31 PM

Stringsinger, there is no expansion of settlements in Gaza; the settlers were forced out by IDF.
There is no appropriation of land.
The reaction of Israel to the firing of rockets is highly disproportional to what Hamas is doing even as Hamas actions are inexcusable but understandable.
Not understandable by me.
If they stopped doing it, all this would never happen.

"Disproportionate" ?
The current operation is not intended as some kind of punishment.
It is only intended to stop the rockets.
It has not been disproportionate enough to stop them yet, but at least they are reduced.

McG, do you deny that at least some Jihadists are committed to the extermination of Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:45 PM

Actually this is not what I said:

"Actually I disagree with Stringsinger where he/she suggests that those firing rockets from Gaza are doing something that is ever going to "stop the settlements, the appropriation of land, the control of checkpoints, the military abuse".

What I said was that whether Hamas fires rockets or not, this is irrelevant to the hegemonic designs of Israel and the evidence now is the Pillar Of Cloud Operation and the expansion of settlements.

"Mufti Muhammad Hussein, presented the killing of Jews by Muslims as a religious Islamic goal."

OK, here's the problem with that. We have preachers in the US who want to burn the Koran but this doesn't reflect the view of the entire population. Same is true with Israel and Palestinians.

Keith, the Pillar of Cloud assault defies international law. It's immoral and dangerous,making Israel the leading danger to world peace in the eyes of the rest of the world, US excluded.

Netanyahu is a right-wing propagandist who is the Mitt Romney of Israel except that he is somewhat popular there among Jewish hot heads. Hamas is also a reactionary organization and like Netanyahu was elected democratically.

Firing rockets into Israel should never be excused but the retaliatory reaction of Israel is highly out of proportion to what has taken place.

Actually, Israel and Palestinians are sometimes represented by crazies on both sides.

The problem is that the US has hegemonic designs and this is why they are supporting Israel over the Palestinians. Israel and the US are leading military exponents. BTW
the Caterpillar tractors that are tearing down Palestinian homes are made in the USA.

The reaction of Israel to the firing of rockets is highly disproportional to what Hamas is doing even as Hamas actions are inexcusable but understandable. There is a provision in the UN law that says an invaded country has the right to protect itself. Israel is acting highly out of proportion. Hamas is not.

The solution is not being brought about by American foreign policy who sides with Israeli aggression and expansion. The Palestinian's plight is virtually ignored by American media.

There is never a decent justification for killing in war which is my view.
This is a topic for another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:22 AM

It would be impossible to get more genocidal than in some parts of the Old Testament. But to use that as evidence that all Jews (or Christians) werre dedicated to wiping out members of other religions would be to distort the truth.

Demonising the people you see as the enemy should never be the way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 08:05 AM

"Last week, the principal Palestinian Authority religious leader, the Mufti Muhammad Hussein, presented the killing of Jews by Muslims as a religious Islamic goal. At an event celebrating the 47th anniversary of the founding of Fatah, he cited the Hadith (Islamic tradition attributed to Muhammad) saying that the Hour of Resurrection will not come until Muslims fight the Jews and kill them:

    "The Hour [of Resurrection] will not come until you fight the Jews.
    The Jew will hide behind stones or trees.
    Then the stones or trees will call:
    'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'"

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/itamar-marcus-and-nan-jacques-zilberdik/palestinian-mufti-muslims-destiny-is-to-kill-jews/

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:57 AM

In any kind of armed conflict there is the intention of killing people on the other side, and for Hamas these will be Israelis, as for the IDF it means killing Palestinians. But that is a very different matter from intending to kill "all Jews", or "all Palestinians" - and that is the claim which you made.

Did the Allies really intend to kill "all Germans" in World War II? Did the Zionists who blew up the David Hotel really have an ambition of kiling all British people?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:30 AM

When are you going to admit that there is no moral or legal justification for the actions of Israel over a twelve year period.

Because I have yet to be convinced Don.
Give some specific deed that is unequivocally immoral or illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:26 AM

I do not concur with your claim that Hamas was elected for the express purpose of firing rockets.

That is more absurd than anything I have said, or or even dreamed of saying.

That is something else you are ignorant of then Don.
Like your belief that Israel restricts food into Gaza.
Hamas made it very clear to the Gazan people they they would attack and make war aginst Israel.

McG, you do not believe that Hamas wants to kill Jews.
I hope you do not deny that other Jihadists openly advocate exactly that.
Hamas' missiles are just Jew killers.
That is all they do, and all they are intended to do.
It does not matter if a few Arabs are also killed by them as long as more Jews die.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 05:57 AM

""There is no moral or legal justification for the indiscriminate attacks on ordinary Jewish and Arab families by Hamas.""

When are you going to admit that there is no moral or legal justification for the actions of Israel over a twelve year period.

Neither side is free of guilt, and the sooner the West stops supporting Israel's unruly teenager act, the better.

This cannot be sorted out with guns, and the West should by now be stepping in and slapping both sides down till they get round a table and TALK.

Instead, the Israelis peep out from behind the skirts of big Uncle Sam and say "Yah Boo, you can't tell me what to do, 'cos my uncle will bash you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 05:46 AM

""Do you honestly believe that there in Gaza the population in general, who elected Hamas for the express purpose of firing these missiles into Israel. now wish they would stop it; or would not vote for them again if they went back for re-election?""

Do you really believe that the ordinary non involved men, women and children of Gaza are all terrorists, while the killers of the Israeli IDF are all knights in shining armour, fighting evil.
It had never occurred to me that you could be that naive.

I do not concur with your claim that Hamas was elected for the express purpose of firing rockets.

That is more absurd than anything I have said, or or even dreamed of saying.

The vast majority of Gazans would just like Israel to piss off and mind its own turnip patch, so that they could come out of the rubble and start to rebuild their homes which have been indiscriminately flattened by air strikes.

Israel is, however, on the verge of making every Palestinian an implacable enemy IMHO, and they will pay dearly and come out at the other end as a genocidal pariah.

I note that you didn't have the good grace to acknowledge my response to your other absurd accusation.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 04:33 AM

DonAnd Israel does, violently and without concern for the people of Gaza.
Suggest non violent alternatives.
Negotiation has failed (often)

I do not believe propaganda of either side.
I have only used established fact in argument, or shown that events are disputed.
Do not deny that without an example.
I have frequently commented on the gullibility of the anti Israel brigade who believe everything claimed by Israel's enemies.

I accept that Gazans are terrified too, but only when Israel finally strikes back, and only if Hamas launches or stores missiles next to their house.

The Maqui only attacked military targets.
Gaza is not occupied or starved.
There is no moral or legal justification for the indiscriminate attacks on ordinary Jewish and Arab families by Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 02:02 AM

Don: Your reply re my animadversions of your claims re a 'minority' is absurd. The actual fighting army in any conflict, the people priming and organising the firing of the weapons and then doing it, is always the minority. Of course it is. But, in a war situation, they can only succeed if they have the support of the population as a whole, or of the vast majority thereof. Do you honestly believe that there in Gaza the population in general, who elected Hamas for the express purpose of firing these missiles into Israel. now wish they would stop it; or would not vote for them again if they went back for re-election? Oh, come on! They might not like all the consequences of their choice and their government's subsequent and present activities, but that is another thing.

I do not disagree with many of the points you are making. But your claim that only a 'minority' is involved in actually shooting the bloody rockets, and represent only themselves in doing so, is manifestly absurd. You really should give this point more consideration, and not reply so absurdly again. You are only undermining your own more valid points by such emotive use of the word. I repeat: you are not a fool; but your use in this tendentious sense of 'minority' is certainly foolish.

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 08:52 PM

"This loaded word 'minority' wants its hash settled.

Criminals are a *minority* of society: so what does Don T think we should do? Abolish the police and let them get on with it because thy are just a *minority*?

It was a *minority* who destroyed the twin Towers on 9/11; I mean - count them: 4 - two for each tower. So that's all right, eh, Don? How much smaller a *minority* could you have?

Even if it was a *minority* firing rockets from Gaza [which it isn't; it's the elected govt as Keith so rightly points out], would that mean the resultant missiles didn't matter? Only a *minority* firing them, so let 'em come?"

I needed to think about this before answering, but here goes Mike.

There have been combined rocket and mortar attacks (according to Wiki) totalling 12,791 in the twelve years 2001 to 2012, which is a yearly total of 1066 to the nearest whole rocket.

Even if it took ten men per rocket, and assuming that it is a trained and established group doing the firing, that amounts to 10,660 men involved, which, I am fairly certain will be a serious over estimate of the real number.

I am sure Mike that you will have to agree that, even adding in the whole of the Hamas government, who order or at least condone these acts, we still have a tiny minority of the 1.7 million population, less than one percent.

It beggars belief that Israeli air strikes haven't killed large numbers of innocent civilians, just based on the law of averages, and it is no excuse to say that militants were using them as shields.

Unless they are caught red handed prepping rockets or manning mortars, a pilot cannot possibly be sure who he is shooting, and Israeli commanders have stated that they consider civilian police to be combatants, though how they justify the large number of dead women and children..........? But of course they simply dispute and deny any figures other than the ones produced by their own side, which by reason of distance are least likely to be accurate.

Lastly "Criminals are a *minority* of society: so what does Don T think we should do? Abolish the police and let them get on with it because thy are just a *minority*?"

NO! But I wouldn't indiscriminately arrest large numbers of the innocent majority, just because I could, either. That comment, with respect, is unworthy of a man of your intelligence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 08:23 PM

Actually, Netanyahu and the Israeli people are at odds... ight of fact, Netanyahu is out of touch with 99.999% of the planet...

If he sucks US into a war then it's our bad... He has all but telegraphed that that is 100% about what he is trying to do...

B~