BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)

Subject: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: mg
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 04:38 PM

To remember the fallen and the living.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 04:45 PM

It's November 11th in Canada. Remembrance Day, we call it.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 04:59 PM

Ptrick Lenihan, Royal Irish Artillary, Neuve Chapelle, 1915

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: mg
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 05:28 PM

Captain Jefferson Dotson, MIA 8/9/69

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 05:41 PM

Faur distant, faur distant, lies Foyers the brave
Nae tombstone memorial shall hallow his grave
For his bones they lie scattered on the rude soil o Spain
An young Jamie Foyers in battle wis slain

He's gane frae the shipyaird that stauns on the Clyde
His haimmer lies idle, his tools laid aside
Tae the wide Ebro river young Foyers has gane
Tae fight by the side o the people o Spain

Thair wisnae his equal at wark or at play
He wis strang in the Union till his dying day
He wis grand at the fitbaa, at the dance he wis braw
Young Jamie Foyers wis the flouer o thaim aa

He cam hame frae the shipyaird, took aff his warkin claes
O, A mind the time weill in the lang simmer's days
He said, "Thinknae lang, lassie, A'll come back again"
But young Jamie Foyers in battle was slain

In the fight for Belcite, he was aye tae the fore
An he focht at Gandesa till he couldnae fight more
For he lay owre his machine gun wi a bullet in his brain
An young Jamie Foyers in battle was slain

Faur distant, faur distant, lies Foyers the brave
Nae tombstone memorial shall hallow his grave
For his bones they lie scattered on the rude soil o Spain
An young Jamie Foyers in battle was slain

For all who have no marker

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: bobad
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 05:50 PM

Sgt Donald Paul Davies

Birth:         Oct. 5, 1948
Quebec, Canada
Death:         Jun. 29, 1969, Vietnam

United States Army Sergeant served with the Second Battalion, 34th Armored Regiment, 25ht Infantry Division. He was killed in action while serving in South Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: gnu
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 06:44 PM

Lest we forget.

I don't. Had many family serve in the wars. They told me... not to forget.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 09:13 PM

Click

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 09:18 PM

While we all likely have close relatives/friends who served in wars, I suspect one or two people come to mind on Nov. 11th.

For me:

RIP my late father who joined the Army WW1 and on route overseas was badly wounded in the Halifax Explosion (December 6, 1917).

RIP my former boss and close friend who died last fall. He served in the joint Canada-USA force (The Black Devils' Brigade) in Italy France and Holland in WW2.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 09:27 PM

All of those relatives I can remember at the moment, living and dead, with their times of service:

Peter Strunk, US Civil War; John O'Neil, Spanish-American War, Moro Rebellion, Indian Wars; Carl Strunk, WW1; Earl Doellman, WW2; Bob Doellman, WW2; Ralph Doellman, WW2; Don Doellman, WW2; Gene Mueller, WW2; John Mueller, WW2; Charles DeVilbis, Cold War; Anthony Doellman, Vietnam; Michael Doellman, Korea; Theodore Doellman, Vietnam; Jim Winking, Vietnam; Ken Rakers, Vietnam; Ralph Doellman, Bosnia; Joseph Doellman, Iraq/Afghanistan; Mark Doellman, Gulf I; William M. Lyons, WW2; Leo Weisgerber, WW2/Korea; Joseph Weisgerber, WW2; Al Weisgerber, WW2; Bernie Weisgerber, Vietnam; Michael Lyons, Vietnam; John Winking, Vietnam....

Friends:

Robert Slocum, Vietnam; Doug Ruff, Vietnam; Marty Schwindler, Vietnam; Vic Paul, Vietnam; 120 members of my NG unit, Vietnam....

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 09:56 PM

Long grey lines of marching men in squadrons passed me by..

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 01:41 AM

In the states Nov. 11, Armistice day, is no longer celebrated and little acknowledged, but I still celebrate it both for its meaning and for personal reasons. We now have, instead, a Monday holiday (we need those long week-ends) to honor, all veterans. Some of our Vets have are given something less than honor the rest of the year, and some are just beginning to get honored after nearly forty years of being reviled by a vocal minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: mg
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 01:46 AM

I say take advantage of the Monday off but continue to remember those on Nov 11 and never forget that day.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 02:02 AM

We have two minutes' silence at 11am here in UK. Some people don't agree and deliberately carry on chatting and making a nuisance of themselves in eg supermarkets. Makes me fume. The dead gave their lives so they might have freedom. If they aren't 'on board' they might at least respect the wishes of those of us who are. 2 mins isn't much to ask for all those lost lives is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Monique
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 02:36 AM

It's public holiday in France and there's a ceremony in every town. More about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: ragdall
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 03:23 AM

Canadians remember. November 11, there will be ceremonies in every town. The last school day before November 11, there will be ceremonies in schools.

This Government of Canada site helps us to remember.

I Remember - Veterans' Week

A Day of Remembrance

rags

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Dead Horse
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 06:25 AM

Stolen from a man I am proud to call a mate.

So you think you have forgotten??

"Now just you sit down, soldier", said the doctor unto me,
"look into your deepest thoughts, and tell me what you see."
"I'll tell you, sir" the soldier said, "of all the hell I've seen",
Of houses burning in the streets, and grass that once was green,
Of lines of dannet wire, that would not let them pass,
Of bricks and bottles flying, and clouds of C.S. gas.
Of a wounded comrade lying on a glass strewn Belfast Street,
Of a Marvel Milk tin nail bomb, exploding at his feet,
Of a petrol bomb that hit a man, and changed him to a pyre,
Of all the lads that stood around, but could not quench the fire."
"Ah well, my lad," the doctor said, "that's all just part of life,
Have two weeks leave, try to rest, enjoy time with your wife."


"Now just you sit down, my son" said the Padre in a word,
"Listen to your deepest thoughts, and tell me what you heard."
"I'll tell you sir," the soldier said, "of all the things I hear,
Of loud explosions in the air, and children's screams of fear.
Of breaking glass and crackling flames and rioter's obscene voice,
Of orders bellowed in the night to soldiers with no choice,
Of cheering Orange marchers, alive with so much fun,
Of the measured, deadly, thunder of the ancient Thompson gun.
Of the laughing, cheerful banter of the comrades who are dead,
Of the fading sobs of my best friend as I held his dying head."
"Ah well, my lad" the Padre said, "this all sounds rather odd,
I'm sure that things will be put right once we have prayed to god."


"Now just you sit down, Lance Corporal," said good old Colonel Beal,
"Lay your hands across your thoughts, and tell me how you feel."
"I'll tell you sir," the corporal said "exactly how I've felt,
I've told the others what has passed, and what I've seen, and smelt.
Of throwing up in bloody streets until my guts are sore,
Of seeing death and carnage 'til I cant take any more,
Of feeling so damned helpless when others take a chance,
Of feeling so embarrassed when my driver **** his pants.
Of feeling that I want to die like friends that went before,
Of feeling that I must join them at great Valhalla's Door."
"Ah well, my lad," the Colonel said "I'll tell you what to do,
Forget the past, just leave your gear, your soldiering days are through"

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 08:01 AM

Private Ulick Jennings, D Company, 2nd Battalion, Highland Light Infantry (City of Glasgow Regimnet).

KIA near Cheux, Normandy, 26 June 1944, aged 26.

One of my Dad's brothers, who I didn't get to meet. RIP.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:10 AM

You might get Monday off in the US, but it's not Veterans Day.

Although originally scheduled for celebration on November 11 of every year, starting in 1971 in accordance with the Uniform Monday Holiday Act, Veterans Day was moved to the fourth Monday of October. In 1978, it was moved back to its original celebration on November 11.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:48 AM

Walt Whitman, from "As Toilsome I Wander'd Virginia's Woods" (1866):



Long, long I muse, then on my way go wandering,
Many a changeful season to follow, and many a scene of life,
Yet at times through changeful season and scene, abrupt, alone,
                                        or in the crowded street,               
Comes before me the unknown soldier's grave, comes the inscription
                                        rude in Virginia's woods,
"Bold, cautious, true, and my loving comrade."

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:50 AM

In college I had a music appreciation class from a professor who was also an old family friend. There aren't many lectures I remember from those days, but the one that sent shivers up my spine was the time he talked about La Valse by Ravel, and talked about how he visualized it as the ghosts of soldiers standing around the walls of a ballroom, watching society pick up the pieces and return to a life after war. I don't know if Ravel or anyone else saw it exactly that way, but I always remember that description when I listen to it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 10:12 AM

The point of Armistice Day is to turn militarism into a religion. Hence any attempt to stand up at one of those commemorations and make a stand against a current war is seen as sacrilege.

The dead gave their lives so they might have freedom,

Some did. Others died (or more often killed) to enslave others. The job description for a soldier says you don't ask which it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 10:36 AM

No Jack.
We call it Remembrance, and that is what it is.
Your name, Armistice, commemorates the end of a war.
It WOULD be sacrilege to use either for any political or anti-war or pro-war stand.

Neither is about soldiers who "died (or more often killed) to enslave others."

Former Axis countries mourn in their own ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cookie
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 11:31 AM

Come on Jack, it's not about anti-war protests (although many of us who will be at their local war memorial on Sunday morning do abhor all wars, including current conflicts), it's about remembering the sacrifice made by millions of servicemen and women, and civilians, during those wars. It's all we have to give them, and Remembrance should be held sacred by everyone, a debt of gratitude owed to those who went through horrors we can only imagine, and a demonstration of our respect for them.

Anti-war protest is fine - in its rightful place. Anyone with half a brain and a trace of sensitivity can understand that a Remembrance Day ceremony isn't its rightful place.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 11:34 AM

That may be the reason some people behave disrespectfully during the Silence - perhaps they think it is glorifying War. But it is actually to honour and remember those who died, and I for one think good manners alone require that those who don't agree could quite easily go on shopping quietly and not disturb the thoughts and reflections of the rest of us. I once spoke (quite politely) to a very noisy woman and her teenage daughter afterwards, and got an absolute mouthful in return.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 11:38 AM

Some people have no class.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 11:41 AM

I celebrate Armistice Day, the end of war, rather than Veteran's Day, which is what I think it's called here, which to me rather honors those who served. The fallen in particular are remembered in May on Memorial Day, as I understand these things.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cookie
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 11:54 AM

Mrrzy, here in the UK, we hold our Remembrance ceremonies for the fallen in all wars on the Sunday before 11/11, or on 11/11 if it falls on a Sunday (as it does this year). We also have a 2 minute silence on 11/11 whatever the day. We don't call it Armistice Day any more, I guess because it's not specific to WW1 but is to remember the fallen in all wars. Something of a cultural difference between our nations, but the sentiments are the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 11:57 AM

My poor old dad used to stand at the memorial in the village where he retired, with tears running down his face, as he remembered his mates from the RAF who died. Anyone disturbing such a moving moment has no feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,gabe
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 12:06 PM

Frederick R. Nelson
Royal Canadian Regiment
Killed at the Battle of Ortona, Italy at the age of 18 Dec. 27, 1943
Rest in Peace Freddy

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: selby
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 12:30 PM

A great uncle served as a Dragoon in the British army before WW1,on demob he went to Canada, to work for Westinghouse. At the outbreak of war he Joined Princess's Pats (PPCLI), at that time a private army, he was sent to France and subsequently KIA. His Family back in England every year at this time, for a long time, used to receive a envelope with a Maple leaf in from who they never knew. Makes me feel humble.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 04:57 AM

I haven't mentioned that 11th November is also our Wedding Anniversary. No excuse for my husband to 'forget' it on Remembrance Day!

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 05:19 AM

Relatives:

Pte Norman Fowler Wilson, 16th Bn, Manchester Regt.
kia 1-7-1916 (Somme)

Pte Frank Wadsworth Hewkin, 1st Bn, Manchester Regt.
died of disease, 12-6-1943 (Thailand)

Dad's mate and comrade:

Sgt George Henry Beresford, 23rd Hussars
kia 4-8-1944 (Normandy)


Never forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 05:23 AM

For all the fallen, of all the wars, and on whichever side they fought, we will remember. We MUST remember, for the day that we forget is the day that we make it possible for it to happen again.

We are, I think, improving (slightly) and I have some hope that one day we will find war unthinkable.

Meanwhile we can only remember and hope.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 09:35 AM

Well said Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 09:54 AM

Ditto that, Don and Eliza.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 12:31 PM

We've been remembering officially since at least 1868 in the United States, when Decoration Day (now Memorial Day) was first proclaimed.

Since then, let's see....

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 06:00 PM

This is not his full record of service.

Thanks Dad.

Thanks Uncle Chic.

Fine lads.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 06:10 PM

A good show on right now on KMUN Astoria just google it..coast radio.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 06:13 PM

Have my poppy attached to my coat ready for the big church service and the Silence tomorrow. When we sing 'Oh Valiant Hearts' I choke up, it's such a moving hymn.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 07:48 PM

Arthur C. Brooks, Sr. Chief Bosun,Ret., US Navy, 1918-1938, 1941-1945.
Arthur C. Brooks, Jr. Lt. Col. US Army,Ret., 1939-1963.
Arthur C. Brooks, III Lt. Col. US Army and Army Reserve,Ret., 1968-1993.
Caitlin Brooks, US Army National Guard, 1994-2000.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Rog Peek
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 08:20 AM

My father Sgt. Edwin Peek (1920-2005) served in the Rifle Brigade 1939-1946.

His brother Sidney Peek (1918-1940) killed with his wife Lilian in the bombing in London while on leave.

Also his brother Robert Peek (c.1917-c.1995) served 1939-1946.

Uncle Hubert Drum (c.1920-c.1975) served in USAF ?-1946.

Step-grandfather Frederick (Harry) Ruffle (1905-c.1983) served in the Royal Artillery 1939-1946, evacuated from Dunkirk in 1940.

Great Uncle John Clements (1897-c.1978) served in 1st Royal Regt. of Artillery 1915-1917. Wounded at Ypres in August 1917 discharged January 1918 with a life-long disability.

Still remembered, especially today.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 11:04 AM

L/Bdr Hawley John Thompson (Jack) invalided out of the Royal Artillery with a smashed hip (which plagued him till his death in 2009), promptly joined the Home Guard and served until V.E.Day.

His brothers Tim and Phil volunteered in Sept 39 and served for the duration, being demobbed in 1946.

Tim was in the first unit to enter Bergen Belsen concentration camp.
Phil was a "D Day Dodger", who fought in Libya, Sicily, Italy and France.

Tim died in 2005, Phil still lives in Nottingham.

They were Irish and could have gone back home or remained as neutrals.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 03:21 PM

My poem "Remember Them?" - http://www.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse/blog/456274222

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 07:03 PM

Best song for the day..written 1809

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUg2X9995ZI

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 10:35 PM

I called my brother and wished him a happy veteran's day and he reciprocated. We both admitted that there were times as we were becoming veterans when we weren't sure we'd make it.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Songwronger
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:29 AM

Eleventh hour, eleventh day, eleventh month.

11 is the most powerful occultic number. WWI could have been ended sooner, but the people running it delayed the ending until 111111. Such bullshit. Veteran's day needs to be celebrated, by why celebrate an occultic holiday? All the speeches made today, with the word "sacrifice" used over and over--that's what the elites' wars are, human sacrifice. Don't buy into their occultic bullshit. Quit volunteering for their human sacrifice industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 03:20 AM

"Quit volunteering for their human sacrifice industry."
My first experience at recording people talking of their experiences was when I was asked by a friend to help interview his grandfather, a retired Liverpool docker, then well into his 80s who, as little more than a boy, had lied about his age and enlisted to fight in WW1.
I was rather nervous of making a half-decent job of it, but within ten minutes of starting, the old man, Tommy, forgot we were there and for two days relived his time in France onto our tape recorder - it remains in my memory as one of the most moving experiences of my life.
On several occasions over the week-end Tommy burst into tears, the most memorable for me being his talking about the 'deserters'.
At one stage, when the fighting was at its most fierce, young men, little more than children of Tommy's own age, were turning and walking away, not to desert, but simply to get away from the noise.
They got to the nearest road or flat piece of ground and simply walked away, making no effort to hide or escape and were easily picked up by the military police, taken to base, routinely tried as deserters, sentenced to death and locked up awaiting execution.
If there was a 'push' on, prisoners awaiting death were taken out of the jail and placed in the front line. When the fighting subsided, presuming they survived, they were returned to their cell and eventually executed.
Tommy burst into tears when he told us "one minute you would be fighting next to someone young enough to have been in the same class as you at school, the next minute you were reading a notice on the wall saying that he had been shot by a firing squad probably made up of boys of the same age".      
Yes, we should remember - the butchery of a generation in "the war to end all wars"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cookie
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 05:03 AM

Excellent post Jim. A perfect illustration of why we have Remembrance, and the importance of keeping Remembrance alive.
IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 05:10 AM

The war did not end wars as they hoped, but it prevented Germany's first attempt to enslave Europe.
It is right to remember the cost to the Tommies to whom the task fell, as told by Jim's own Tommy.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 06:09 AM

All War is atrocious and horrific. But when a threat of invasion occurs, what should one do? Get out the white flag? Our vicar gave a very good sermon yesterday about the carnage and the tragedy of it all, and more importantly the need for much more effort towards achieving world peace. He felt (and so did I) that Remembrance Day is held for two reasons. One, to ensure the Dead are not forgotten as our lives go on in peace and freedom, and two, to keep the horror of it alive in our minds, ensuring that every effort be made to prevent a repeat of the same. No-one is glorifying War on 11th Nov. On the contrary, its horrors are before us today in many parts of the world. The Day is to strengthen our resolve to work for and maintain Peace. Surely no-one could object to that?

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 06:59 AM

The point of Armistice Day is to turn militarism into a religion. Hence any attempt to stand up at one of those commemorations and make a stand against a current war is seen as sacrilege.

The dead gave their lives so they might have freedom,

Some did. Others died (or more often killed) to enslave others. The job description for a soldier says you don't ask which it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 07:26 AM

Apologies: I hit send prematurely there. I won't bother reposting Jacks comments again but this is what I wanted to add.

I have really mixed feelings about all this. I'm no pacifist and the thought of turning the other cheek puts me right off Jesus. People who join armies and navies sign up for all sorts of reasons. I suppose patriotism for the country that you happened to be born in is one such, but I doubt whether most of the young men and women who join up understand intimately the politics of the wars they get caught up in. It's a cliché, but the first casualty of any war is the truth, and that works for all sides involved. Am I glad that they fight for this country? Well, I'm not proud of the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns, and a good few others, but what I do know is that, thanks to the defeat of fascism and the political reaction in Europe that ensued, and in spite of everything else that went wrong, I never got called up to fight in a war and neither did my son. If someone asked me to buy a poppy I'd buy it but I won't wear it because I don't want to be associated with the horrid militarism of the remembrance events. If you wear your medals with pride you are saying that you're proud that we won the war and of your part in that. Winning a war means we kill more of them than they killed of ours. Everybody who gets killed leaves many grieving people behind with shattered lives. And I don't forget civilians in that. Innocent civilian deaths in Iraq outnumbered armed forces deaths hundreds of times over, yet it's the military medals that are on show at remembrance events. I think we should be a bit more humble than that. We can still be humble about it whilst still celebrating the bravery and sacrifice of our armed forces. I'd be a lot happier if I saw loads of poppies but not a medal in sight. And the last thing I want to hear is a marching band playing Rule Britannia. Jack mentions religion. All our remembrance events are absolutely up to their eyeballs in religion, from crucifixes and vacuous bishops' eulogies to hymn-singing. That strikes a completely wrong note with me. When the Beeb focuses on the bereaved sister of a young man killed this year in Afghanistan, bringing the whole thing down to human scale, that's when remembrance is at its best for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 07:27 AM

Jack's. Grrr

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 07:52 AM

Steve, the only part of your comment I would take issue with is the bit about medals.

Most of those medals (apart from campaign medals which simply say "I was there") were awarded to those whose actions saved the lives of their comrades, not to those who killed the most enemy.

Generally, knocking out a machine gun position involved two or three enemy deaths.

If medals were awarded on kill rate, all bomber crews would have the VC.

I can see no reason why wearing those awards with pride should not engender admiration in the observer, not disapproval.

You have, I think, missed the point that I made earlier. No matter the intention of the originators of Armistice Day, it is now referred to as Remembrance Sunday because it is now a remembrance of the fallen on whichever side they fought and in whichever conflict.

That apart, I agree with you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 08:08 AM

"I have really mixed feelings about all this."
Me too.
Tommy Kenny, the man we recorded summed it up for me when we asked him about 'heros'
He said, "there we no heroes in the trenches, just dockers and bricklayers and plasterers and plumbers and electricians... with guns, killing dockers and bricklayers and plasterers..... just like ourselves, and if we didn't we'd end up standing facing the firing squad next to the fellers who walked away"
He said "you learned to steer clear of the nutters who talked about king and country and freedom - those buggers'd get you killed".
My father went off to fight fascism - in 1937. He spent nearly two years in a Spanish hospital and prison and when he came home he was awarded with a police record as "a premature anti-fascist", was excommunicated from his religion and was blacklisted from his work, forcing him to leave home an become a navvy with McAlpines - he never really worked out "the war against fascism".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cookie
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 08:10 AM

Steve, you have a right to express your views precisely because people went to war and won. Had they lost, in particular WW2, it's very likely you would not have the freedom to hold or express those views. Please don't insult those who fought those wars for the freedoms you enjoy by sneering at their decorations. Their medals were won facing horrors and privations people like you and I can only guess about, and many - perhaps most - returned with invisible wounds that only they know, and that stay(ed) with them for the rest of their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:18 AM

That is utterly unfair. There was no hint of sneering, let alone the enjoyment of sneering, anywhere in what I posted. And your preaching at me about my freedoms is also unnecessary. I pointed out that the people who defeated German fascism meant that neither I nor my son ever had to be called up to fight. Most people reading my comment would interpret that as an expression of gratitude, which is exactly what it was intended as.

I take Don's point about medals, though nowhere did I insinuate that medals were somehow awarded on kill rate. However, whatever actions they were awarded for, they are still redolent of the militarism that I personally wish played a far smaller part in the ceremonials. I sometimes look at the vast arrays of gongs sported by royalty at these events and wonder exactly how they came by them. We all owe gratitude to those who defended our freedom. That lot owe a whole extra layer of gratitude to the poor bloody fighting men and women who keep them in the manner to which they are so undeservedly accustomed. As I say, mixed feelings. I'll still buy a poppy and I always observe the silence.

Celebrating militarism, which is what these occasions frequently do, especially when it is tied to religion, will help to glorify and perpetuate it. You don't have to be a pacifist to express the opinion that we would a be a damn sight better off in a world which had a lot less militarism.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:24 AM

"let alone the enjoyment of sneering"

Oops, that didn't belong.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:26 AM

I was a reservist and never had to face the horror called war. A professor (retired Royal Marine) who taught a course called The History of Human Conflict would put a poster on his door every year at this time. It showed a soldier, nationality unrecognizable, and on the poster was a single red poppy.

I am always glad when November 11 becomes November 12 because Remembrance Day affects me on many levels and in many ways, not all comfortable or easy to live with, because I share the views of every poster to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:40 AM

Stories of Love and Loss.
Desert war cemetery.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20265393

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:45 AM

Yep, put the "human" back into it. Massive military parades with marching bands, bishops leading mass praying and a bunch of royals and politicians (often of the war-mongering type themselves) laying wreaths all take the humanity out. When you take out the humanity you make war far easier to wage again. That's my point. Sometimes a focus on the small things, like your one soldier and a single poppy, or Jim's man in the trenches, or the young sister of the soldier killed in Helmand, speak far more to me about sacrifice and bravery than any of that grandeur.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:48 AM

"speaks" I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 10:04 AM

Massive military parades with marching bands, bishops leading mass praying and a bunch of royals and ...

We do not have massive military parades.
We have small numbers of serving men and women leading a massive parade of veterans and families.
The bands make the marching easier.
The Queen has a much loved grandson serving in a combat role in Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 10:12 AM

I sometimes look at the vast arrays of gongs sported by royalty at these events and wonder exactly how they came by them.
Duke of Edinburgh.


British Commonwealth 1937 King George VI Coronation Medal[W 8]
United Kingdom 1945 1939–1945 Star[W 8]
United Kingdom 1945 Atlantic Star[W 8]
United Kingdom 1945 Africa Star[W 8]
United Kingdom 1945 Burma Star, with Pacific clasp[W 8]
United Kingdom 1945 Italy Star[W 8]
United Kingdom 1945 1939-45 War Medal, with Mentioned in Despatches oak leaf[W 8]
British Commonwealth 2 June 1953 Queen Elizabeth II Coronation Medal[W 8]
Commonwealth realms 1977 Queen Elizabeth II Silver Jubilee Medal[W 8]
Canada 1982 Canadian Forces Decoration, with Four Bars[W 8] CD[9] [10]
New Zealand 1990 New Zealand 1990 Commemoration Medal[W 8]
Commonwealth realms 2002 Queen Elizabeth II Golden Jubilee Medal[W 8]
Saskatchewan 2005 Commemorative Medal for the Centennial of Saskatchewan

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Raedwulf
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 10:51 AM

[i]I sometimes look at the vast arrays of gongs sported by royalty at these events and wonder exactly how they came by them.[/i]

As Keith shows without actually saying, a large percentage of medals on the chests of most veterans are campaign medals, not combat medals. You were there, you were part of it, even if you never heard a shell or ducked a bullet.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: mg
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 10:57 AM

I am very sad that despite the fact that I requested that this be moderated it apparently was not. There was a nonmoderated thread for some very valid sentiments and arguments to be placed on. But sad that for one day a year...and I don't care that much for Memorial Day,we can't just say it is very sad that my brother/uncle/sister/enemy died.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:17 AM

Well I'm sorry but adding "please moderate" in brackets and then not explaining what you meant in your opening post is hardly going to end up having the effect you wanted. I can't be alone in not having known what you intended. In any case, you post at your own risk here (as I know full well!) and threads, well, tend to just go with the flow and you can't usually expect special moderatorial control, I suppose (unless you know something I don't know). I'm not aware that disrepect towards the fallen has been shown here, at least. Quite the opposite, I should say.

And Keith, you make my point quite well, actually. Half those listed medals of that cheeky Greek were not obtained via wartime exploits. I won't delve into what exactly he did for the other half apart from his being there.

My point about the wearing of medals by large numbers of veterans on parade is that they symbolically impede the sense of humility we should experience over our failure to settle differences in a peaceful way. If we never see war as an abject failure we'll never stop having wars. We should honour the bravery of all our armed forces and we should never forget those who made the ultimate sacrifice (including innocent civilians). The poppy is a wonderful and appropriate symbol for both.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cookie
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:53 AM

Well Steve, it's another example of beauty being in the eye of the beholder - I personally regard the marching ranks, and their proudly-worn decorations, as a perfect reminder of the futility of war. And I certainly would never begrudge those who march the opportunity to wear their medals as a reminder to us all of what they had to do, what they had to bear, and the sheer bloody stupid waste of it. Without the medals, they're just a bunch of blokes marching, with the medals they make an eloquent statement to those of us who never served in wartime that we should do everything in our power to prevent it happening in the future.

But, as I said, it's down to individual perception, and yours and mine clearly differ - I guess we have to agree to leave it that way as neither of us is likely to persuade the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:33 PM

To me, "Remembrance Day" is an opportunity for me to join with others to personally reflect and remember those I know, and all others who suffered - on all sides of conflicts. It does not matter to me what uniform they wore (or under what flag they did so), or if they wore any uniform at all. It is sad that so many had to suffer so much in conflicts throughout history, and it could have not worked out differently. IMO, it seems fitting to remain silent for a minute each year and reflect. However, I recognize that, like with any matter, all do not agree with that, and , since it is personal matter, that does not matter to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:00 PM

""And Keith, you make my point quite well, actually. Half those listed medals of that cheeky Greek were not obtained via wartime exploits. I won't delve into what exactly he did for the other half apart from his being there.""

Six months convoy escort in the Indian Ocean
1940 transferred to the Mediterranean fleet.
1941 Battle of Cape Matapan - Mentioned in dispatches, and the Battle of Crete.
1942 North Sea convoys and later naval support of the invasion of Sicily
1944 transferred to the Pacific fleet 27th Destroyer Flotilla.
1945 Present in Tokyo Bay at the Japanese surrender.

Seems he was in the thick of it throughout!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:09 PM

I have no wish either to deny or begrudge anyone's right to do what they like. I expressed my opinion as to what those spectacles convey to me.

And, in deference to the thread originator, I won't take on the royalists - for now! :-)

I've mentioned innocent civilian casualties a couple of times so I'll just mention them again with no particular point in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Megan L
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:42 PM

On Saturday 16 March 1940, at least fourteen German bombers attacked Scapa Flow, the aerodrome at Hatston and other targets. Also attacked was the small group of houses at the Brig O' Waithe, Stenness. Twenty-two high explosive bombs fell around the houses, one of which suffered a direct hit. James Isbister was killed by a piece of shrapnel, his wife and baby were uninjured. He had the sad distinction of being the first civilian casualty of World War 2.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:01 PM

The first *British* civilian casualty.

Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (please moderate)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:13 PM

".....for decades these men went to war to protect the nation that denied them the most basic of human rights..."


Australia's Aboriginal Soldiers - Now finally getting recognition