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The Jarrow March

GUEST,The Jarrow March 04 Nov 12 - 09:24 PM
GUEST,999 04 Nov 12 - 09:26 PM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 04 Nov 12 - 09:54 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Nov 12 - 10:36 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Nov 12 - 11:17 PM
Allan Conn 05 Nov 12 - 02:08 AM
foggers 05 Nov 12 - 04:24 AM
Will Fly 05 Nov 12 - 04:25 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 05 Nov 12 - 04:27 AM
Leadfingers 05 Nov 12 - 04:54 AM
Richard Bridge 05 Nov 12 - 05:10 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Nov 12 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 05 Nov 12 - 05:49 AM
Owen Woodson 05 Nov 12 - 05:53 AM
Richard Bridge 05 Nov 12 - 06:01 AM
DMcG 05 Nov 12 - 06:09 AM
Owen Woodson 05 Nov 12 - 06:17 AM
Owen Woodson 05 Nov 12 - 06:20 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Nov 12 - 07:36 AM
Owen Woodson 05 Nov 12 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 05 Nov 12 - 08:10 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Nov 12 - 08:10 AM
Owen Woodson 05 Nov 12 - 08:25 AM
Dave Hanson 05 Nov 12 - 08:50 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Nov 12 - 08:57 AM
The Sandman 05 Nov 12 - 09:12 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Nov 12 - 09:29 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Nov 12 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 05 Nov 12 - 09:35 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 05 Nov 12 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 05 Nov 12 - 09:57 AM
Richard Bridge 05 Nov 12 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,999 05 Nov 12 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Jack Sprocket 05 Nov 12 - 12:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Nov 12 - 01:49 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 05 Nov 12 - 01:55 PM
henryclem 05 Nov 12 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,TA 05 Nov 12 - 03:08 PM
The Sandman 05 Nov 12 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,CS 05 Nov 12 - 04:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Nov 12 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,999 05 Nov 12 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,999 05 Nov 12 - 05:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Nov 12 - 07:52 PM
GUEST,999 05 Nov 12 - 08:16 PM
theleveller 06 Nov 12 - 03:01 AM
Dave Hanson 06 Nov 12 - 03:30 AM
GUEST,Mavis Enderby 06 Nov 12 - 03:51 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 06 Nov 12 - 04:22 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 06 Nov 12 - 05:20 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 06 Nov 12 - 05:28 AM
Mayet 06 Nov 12 - 07:56 AM
The Sandman 06 Nov 12 - 07:59 AM
The Sandman 06 Nov 12 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,999 06 Nov 12 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 06 Nov 12 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,999 06 Nov 12 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,999 06 Nov 12 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 06 Nov 12 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 06 Nov 12 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,999 06 Nov 12 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,999 06 Nov 12 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 06 Nov 12 - 10:21 AM
Bob the Postman 06 Nov 12 - 02:45 PM
Dave Hanson 06 Nov 12 - 02:54 PM
Jeri 06 Nov 12 - 05:57 PM
Jeri 06 Nov 12 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,999 06 Nov 12 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,CS 06 Nov 12 - 06:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Nov 12 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,999 06 Nov 12 - 09:13 PM
vectis 07 Nov 12 - 04:00 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 15 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,ada the cadre 16 Dec 15 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 16 Dec 15 - 07:05 PM
The Sandman 17 Dec 15 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,henryp 18 Dec 15 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,jimbainbridge 18 Dec 15 - 09:27 AM
GUEST 27 Jun 18 - 01:46 PM
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Subject: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits
From: GUEST,The Jarrow March
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 09:24 PM

"The marchers were supported by a bus which carried cooking equipment and ground sheets for when the march had to stop outside. Many of the men marched in army style, walking for 50 minutes before a ten-minute break, and they held blue and white banners. A harmonica band and frequent singing helped to keep morale of the marchers high. Sometimes, the local Member of Parliament, Ellen Wilkinson, marched with the group to give higher profile to the crusade."

Do any of you UK people know of this?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 09:26 PM

I started this thread, sorry for not saying. I'm Canadian.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 09:54 PM

I would imagine everybody who writes from England to Mudcat knows about The Jarrow Hunger March, how they were sneered at by Toty boys in University towns. How the sight of the marchers and the dignity of their bearing turned a few tory boys into KGB men.

All legengary stuff - the subject of a hit song The Geordie Lads written and performed by Alan Price (ex Animals keyboard player.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 10:36 PM

What Al said, although I cannot vouch for the KGB bit.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 11:17 PM

For info on this event, google ~~ wikipedia has quite an informative entry.

I just have a dim memory of it, and of the Abdication crisis the same year, & Geo V's Silver Jubilee the previous year, and the Coronation of Geo Vi the year after which occurred on my 5th birthday. Not of course that I was altogether aware of all that was going on, but ours was a political household [my father had been a potential Labour candidate in the election a couple of years before I was born], and I remember loving the word 'Jubilee', and my mother explaining the Abdication in terms I could get. I just heard the name 'Jarrow', as I recall it, & it stuck with me.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Allan Conn
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 02:08 AM

"Do any of you UK people know of this?"

It is a noted event so most people will have heard the name; and many perhaps most will know the outline; though I can imagine only a minority will know the details. As per most historical events really.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: foggers
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 04:24 AM

My dad was a 15 year old lad in Easington (County Durham) in 1936 and he remembered very well both the Great Depression with its resultant effects (his own father lost his butchery business, and with that went their family house) and the Jarrow March. He used to tell us about seeing the Marchers as they passed through his area,where they were well received and supported by the local mining communities.

Ironically, whilst me dad himself was a lifelong old style Tory (preferring Ted Heath to Thatcher) his stories of poverty and resistance in the NE of England rather had the effect of turning my older sister and I towards leftist leanings.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 04:25 AM

Bruce - there's a good page here.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 04:27 AM

Here's a curio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exMh_dzvJsQ

I especially like the pronuniation of 'bairns'.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 04:54 AM

The late Charlie Hardy came South with The March I believe , and never went back - Wrote some damn fine songs and was a regular singer at any Folk Event round Harrow .


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 05:10 AM

I might, perhaps, point out that it is an enduring symbol to the whole of England of the disdain that the toffs had and still have for the rest.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 05:21 AM

Trust the Asinine Brige to milk the sufferings of the 1930s unemployed to feed his own idiotic bourgeois self-hating agenda.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 05:49 AM

Oh Mike! Do leave off. Richard thinks what he thinks - quite sincerely. It gets a tad simplistic and repetitive - but so's these messages with you kicking him up the bum.

well okay = more than a tad. but we're all old. we're entitled to be weird.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 05:53 AM

For your information, Mr MGbloodyM, the Jarrow march is an iconic episode in British labour history. One little mentioned detail of that episode is that, when the march went past the Reform Club in London - yes, that Reform Club where all the well bred upper class toffs hung out - some of the members went outisde and pelted the marchers with stale bread rolls!

If that doesn't put me in mind of Messrs Cameron, Osborne and Co, I don't know what will.

Fuck you.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 06:01 AM

There are lots of places I could go with your "self-hating" remark, Myer, but the OP raised the point of the Jarrow march, and that was the bloody point of it. Toffs with no idea but the working class left in hopeless unemployment and starving. If you don't understand that you are even more senile and bigoted and smug than I thought.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 06:09 AM

My wife's grandfather was one of the organisers and he left a lot of notes. They are not in her branch of the family but we can probably find out what his views were of any KGB links. However the waters are likely to be very murky when look at all the politics of the time


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 06:17 AM

Ok. I've calmed down. My apologies to everybody on this list - everbody that is except Michael Grosvenor Myer - for using the f word.

However, for anyone like me who was brought up in poor and difficult circumstances, the Jarrow march remains an important source of inspiration, and a very noble one at that.

In case MGM has forgotten those people, 207 of them, marched the 300 miles from Jarrow to London, in all kinds of atrocious weather, living off whatever local soup kitchens could muster, and sleeping more often than not in workhouse casual wards, to deliver a petition to the government. They weren't a bunch of upper class ill-bred parasites, and they weren't looking for handouts. They were looking for work. They were looking for paid employment. They were looking to the government to do something about the 70% unemployment which was then plaguing the town of Jarrow.

To GUEST,The Jarrow March. There is quite a lot on the Internet about the Jarrow march. See especially http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/jarrow_01.shtml , which also includes some hard copy references.

To Michael Grosvenor Myer, and all who think like him. Go hang your heads in shame.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 06:20 AM

DMcG. If you've got any papers relating the march, could I suggest that they should be in an archive somewhere? That's if you haven't done so already of course. Even better if they could also be put on the Internet.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 07:36 AM

"However the waters are likely to be very murky when look at all the politics of the time"
Aren't they always when it comes to workers protesting at the situation they find themselves in due to political incompetence indifference and corporate greed.
Many of the workers who marched from Jarrow to protest at not being able to feed their families were among those who fought in the trenches in 'The War to End All Wars'
The fact that they were treated with contempt the way they were by the Reform Club parasites deserves a mention - it certainly seems to have served to get the maggots scuttling out of the apple here.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 08:04 AM

As an indication of the contemporary relevance of episodes like Jarrow. I heard Melvyn Bragg recently, claiming that the survivors of the 1934 Gresford mining disaster had been docked for the last quarter of the shift on the day the disaster happened. This despite the fact that most of the survivors immediately went back underground to rescue their trapped mates.

At the time, I was inclined to dismiss this as an urban myth. Surely, even by the standards of the times, and the notorious cruelty of the coalowners, a bit more compassion would have been shown than that.

Recently however, I was talking to a welfare official from the National Union of Seamen about Somali pirates. He told me that immediately a British crew is taken hostage, their pay is terminated and they are not taken back on the payroll until they are freed and able to start working again. Thus, their dependents are left high and dry with only state benefits to keep them going through no fault of their own. What was that about welfare scroungers Mr Osborne?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 08:10 AM

I'd like to point out that The Jarrow March isn't Folklore - certainly not in the prissy Mudcat sense of the word anyway. It is, in fact, as shameful an episode in the recent class-ridden history of our most Hideous Isles as you could wish for. 76 years on and we are still a class-ridden shithole, getting shittier by the day as the present ill-elected government carries on the great Toff Tradition by dismantling the country bit by bit.

The Alan Price song is, alas, a ghastly example of the 1970's Folk Zeitgeist. It ended up becoming near-anthemised for the FA Cup final of 1974 - still, it could have been worse: Liverpool got Little Jimmy Osmond - but they also got the cup. Ho hum. Alan Price's earlier cover of Tommy Armstrong's Trimdon Grange Explosion is of a higher order entirely, packing it's brassy non-folky power-pop punch with a style and dignity that still sounds pretty cool today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id2zIWwBCUU


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 08:10 AM

I have said nothing in disrespect of the March to provoke Mr Woodson's abuse & obloquy. I feel, and have spoken, most respectfully of it; my family supported it at the time, and my father, I repeat, was an active member of the Labour Party working for the betterment of such conditions as provoked the March. My only adverse comment was in response to the selfrighteous Mr Asinine Bridge predictably extrapolating from it to present, and entirely different, circumstances, in order to keep class resentments well alive to feed his own crises of conscience at his own bourgeois prosperity, which, as even Al has hinted, are becoming increasingly tedious.

But then skill in comprehension or clarity of thought have never been things which Mr Woodson has been noted for. He may likewise copulate, or be copulated, or whevs, if so inclined.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 08:25 AM

MtheGM. What you said was insulting to the memory of the marchers, because you used that memory to get a cheap and wholly unwarranted jibe in at Richard Bridge. Some of us are getting pretty fed up at your peurile carping and sniggering at everything you disagree with; to say nothing of the terms of abuse you keep hurling at other Mudcatters.

As I have just pointed out, the experiences of the 1930s are still extremely relevant. Indeed they are probably more so now than at any time since the second world war. Eg., I for one never expected to see the re-emergence of, or a need for, food distribution centres in 21st Century. But then I never thought I'd live to see another government as unfair and callous and uncaring as this one.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 08:50 AM

MtheGM seems to draw attention to himself in this way because he believes that the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 08:57 AM

'to say nothing of the terms of abuse you keep hurling at other Mudcatters'....
.,,.
Apart fom a lapse some months ago, for which I have apologised, that is something I have sedulously avoided doing for, literally, years. Give me some citation, or define where some of my mild apostrophes such as 'scoundrel', 'bourgeois', &c can be classed as 'terms of abuse'; or have the honour and decency to withdraw this denunciation, please, Mr Woodson.

You, OTOH,charmingly address me above as 'Mr MGbloodyM', and exclaim 'fuck you', for which you apologise to all readers except, specifically, me. And then you accuse me of 'hurling abuse'.

I fear, Mr Woodson, that you do not receive a pass mark in rationality or moderation. In fact, to hurl as much abuse as I generally do, I consider you a most foolish and misguided young fellow.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:12 AM

My father who was an active communist in the 1930s ,and was sentenced to hard labour in prison for making a speech about king edward the eighth, told me about the Jarrow march, and his comments were much the same as Owen Woodson.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:29 AM

Moreover, Mr OW; I would remind you that you once attempted to send me [what I took to be] an abusive PM; to which I replied that I had deleted it unread as I had no intention of engaging in correspondence with you. I repeat that here, and shall refrain from reading, let alone replying to, any further posts you may address to me; so you might as well spare yourself the effort unless you want to grandstand to such as make brilliant comments like that oh-so-original insight from DaveH above. As Jane Austen put it in re Elinor Dashwood's attitude to her suitor's foolish brother, I do not think you deserve the compliment of rational opposition.

Kind regards

~M~


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:31 AM

...or is that hurling terms of abuse?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:35 AM

I've never liked the Trimdon Grange song. Wth its funereal pace and expectation of us all to be sad about people we didn't know - i reckon its sent more folk club audiences scuttling off to the bog than Ansells bitter did in its hay day.

Whereas the Alan Price geordie Boy got people talking about Jarrow. Credit where its due. Price seemed an arrogant prick when I went to see him in concert. But the song communicated. when its lost the zeitgeist, the spirit to move - I reckon songs have lost the right to be called folksongs. they are for those careful curators of the folk tradition. folk museum pieces perhaps.

i might be wrong - but i seem to reckon there was a mining museum near Trimdon - and they don't even know about the song there.   I seem to recall asking them.

mind you - they don't have any mention of Sam Larner or Peter Bellamy in the fishing museum in Yarmouth. Or even a tea towel with the Rufford park poachers at Rufford park.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:46 AM

Leadfinger - re Charlie Hardy. I don't think he came down with the Jarrow marchers. IIRC he told me he was already in London before the march (he first took a job as a barman "with lots of experience", although he'd never even been in a pub before!). I think he said (though this was a long time ago so I might be misremembering) that he went to see (and possibly sing for) the marchers when they were just North of London. Mike Sparks would probably know the details better.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:57 AM

Or even a tea towel with the Rufford park poachers at Rufford park.

A gap in market, eh? Go for it - I'd certainly buy one, even if only a couple of verses of the song are traditional...

Tommy Armstrong is well remembered outside of the Folk Scene, happily. His name graced (graces??) a council building in Stanley and his grave in Tanfield Village is a place of remembrance & pilgrimage for those who see in his songs the sort of direct relevance to life one rarely finds in folk circles. Armstrong was a well versed traditional song-maker - a cunning craftsmen & local eccentric whose songs are masterpieces of his vernacular craft.

What I love about the Price version is that it's devoid of Folksy mawkishness. Armstrong wrote the song for his people. When you see the names he mentions in the song turn up on a roll of the victims then it begins to make sense, especially to those of us who grew up in the coalfields of the North East where such disasters aren't exactly uncommon. Had not my own grandfather been invalided out of the pits at the age of 12 (as oppose to killed outright) chances are I wouldn't be here to ponder such things...

Trimdon Victims, February 1882


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 10:03 AM

Myer - if you do not see the relevance of the Jarrow march to today you are even more senile and bigoted and smug than I thought.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 11:19 AM

Thanks to you all for your input about the March and various links to the history of it. My choice of Folklore in the thread title was unfortunate and certainly not intended to belittle it. My grandfather was a coal miner in the late 1800s and I'm sure he'd have been with the marchers had he still been living in England at that time.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 12:39 PM

Al, the Trimdon Grange tune as commonly sung now was I believe a revival composition- by Anne Briggs I think. I understand it was originally sung to a brass- bandy sort of march tune which may also have been one of the more muscular hymns, and sung to the tune I have in mind (which I can't remember if it is the original one, or just something I've gathered and thought would fit) doesn't sound half so snivelling. U.N. Ma Colle did a similar groanifying job on Poor Cotton Weaver.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 01:49 PM

"present, and entirely different, circumstances"

Present circumstances are different, as is always the case - but "entirely different" is going far too far. We are in the middle of a depression comparable in many ways to the depression of the Thirties - with probably less prospect of coming out of it than back then. "The poor" may be less subject to total destitution, so far at least - but the rich are even richer. And the same people are in charge.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 01:55 PM

The tune originally specified was Go And Leave Me If You Wish It. You can see a copy of a sheet of the song at the Farne archive: Trimdon Grange Explosion, where that tune is specified.

The tunes used for it were posted in the thread: Lyr Add: Trimdon Grange Explosion (see links in the post by Alan of Australia and the following post by Gary Gillard)


Mick


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: henryclem
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 02:20 PM

One of the more fascinating (or disgraceful) aspects of the Jarrow story is the reason behind so many men of the town being unemployed. Imports of steel from Germany, heavily subsidised by the Nazis !


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,TA
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 03:08 PM

There's a nice sculpture depicting a group of Crusaders outside of Morrisons in the Viking Centre in Jarrow. Pub names also remember the March. The govt. of the day didn't give them the time of day when they reached no.10 but it's a testement to the hardships the marchers and their families endured that their efforts are remembered today.
Tommy Armstrong was born in Wood Street, Shotley Bridge and liked a pint by all accounts.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 03:44 PM

the original tune to T GRANGE Ex was the march tune, the other tune[go and leave me, which i happen to like as well was used by lou killen, and is not the original


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 04:26 PM

I'm unsure why there's a 'folklore' prefix remaining on this thread as the mods are usually so diligent about correcting such misattributions. I believe the Jarrow march was a real historical event, not some folk tale :)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 04:48 PM

"Folklore" includes real events which are popularly remembered in this way. In fact that kind of popular memory is literally what the word means.

It was good that the Jarrow March was included in the iconic Olympic opening ceremony.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 05:52 PM

"I'm unsure why there's a 'folklore' prefix remaining on this thread as the mods are usually so diligent about correcting such misattributions."


'Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 11:19 AM

Thanks to you all for your input about the March and various links to the history of it. My choice of Folklore in the thread title was unfortunate and certainly not intended to belittle it. My grandfather was a coal miner in the late 1800s and I'm sure he'd have been with the marchers had he still been living in England at that time.'


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 05:54 PM

CS, go to the 'Create a new thread' and tell me what YOU would have entitled it, svp.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 07:52 PM

Since the question asked was whether people in Britain still remember the Jarrow March, which happened before they were born?" it actually was about whether it is part of our folklore here, so the term was perfectly correct.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 08:16 PM

Thank you, McG of H.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 03:01 AM

If not part of folklore, certainly a well-documented part of history. Not sure where the two overlap.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 03:30 AM

Do Canadians know about The Heights of Abraham ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Mavis Enderby
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 03:51 AM

There was an ill-considered idea to invoke the Jarrow March as part of protests over fuel prices in 2000: Link

Without wishing to wade in to the arguments above I'd say the conditions of hardship and hunger mentioned in the article are more relevant today than in 2000.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 04:22 AM

Re The heights of Abraham

Several Canadians have visited The heights of Abraham tourist spot in Matlock.

The less famous one involving General Woolf probably has ben dropped from the curriculum. Like a lot ofthese British military victories, we probably won something not worth having. We're not there now. I bet they haven't got a kiddies playground.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 05:20 AM

Not sure where the two overlap.

On Mudcat it appears to be in some hinterland of mawkish nostalgia when even the sufferings of the past become a cause of a cosy feel-good sentimental glow. So Folklore = Lore o' the Folkies. I've lost count of the times I've opened up threads here with a genuine Folklore prefix only to have it pulled by some cretinous moderator secretly empowered to strike out anything that offends their prissy sensibilities.

One is reminded of those Horrible History books - only a matter of time (well a few gundred years anyway) before they do one on The Nasty Nazis or the Terrible Tories. I wonder, is the Holocaust Folklore too?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 05:28 AM

Why wait a few hundred years....The Malodorous Maggie, The Bastard Blair,...The Tossers in Number Ten,

sounds like a winner to me!

Can't see the Nazis getting into that matey company.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Mayet
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 07:56 AM

The Jarrow March is VERY much a UK icon and part of our popular culture although that prompts the question why? as it was preceded by other equally important marches*

Hunger marches to London had previously taken place in 1922–23, 1929 and 1930
"With unemployment at 2,750,000, the 1932 National Unemployed Workers' Movement organised "Great National Hunger March against the Means Test" included about 3,000 people in eighteen contingents of marchers, mainly from economically depressed areas such as the South Wales Valleys, Scotland and the North of England designed to meet up in Hyde Park in London. A petition containing a million signatures demanding the abolition of the means test and the 1931 Anomalies Act was intended to be presented to Parliament after a rally in the park

Wiki goes on to describe it

The first contingent of marchers left Glasgow on 26 September, and the marchers were greeted by a crowd of about 100,000 upon their arrival at Hyde Park on 27 October 1932.The marchers had not received much in the way of media publicity on their way to London, but having reached the capital, "...they met an almost blanket condemnation as a threat to public order, verging upon the hysterical in the case of some of the more conservative press". Stanley Baldwin's government used force to stop the petition reaching parliament, with it being confiscated by the police.
Fearing disorder, the police deployment was Britain's most extensive public order precaution since 1848 and Lord Trenchard, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner mobilised a total police force of 70,000 against the marchers and their supporters. Serious violence erupted in and around the park, with mounted police being used to disperse the demonstrators, and across central London in the days to come with 75 people being badly injured. Home Secretary Sir John Gilmour was questioned about the ongoing disturbances in the House of Commons"

And this should be celebrated at least equally with the Jarrow march as -

"THE MARCH LED DIRECTLY TO THE FORMATION OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES. ITS FOUNDER, RONALD KIDD, SET UP THE COUNCIL AS HE WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THE USE OF AGENT PROVOCATEURS BY THE POLICE TO INCITE VIOLENCE DURING AND AFTER THE 1932 MARCHES."

* It has been argued that it was because no Communists were allowed to participate

I don't know whether this   is still available


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 07:59 AM

well, agent provacateurs are still at it from the police force ,example the corrib gas protest


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 08:02 AM

Latest:

    11:12 Brooks heading_

British undercover police officer allowed to join Dublin protests

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A UK police officer was allowed to go undercover and take part in environmental protests in Dublin under an agreement between the Republic and Britain.

Mark Kennedy is currently at the centre of a major row in Britain as a result of his double life as a green activist and a member of the national public order intelligence unit with the Metropolitan police.

It was revealed last week that Mr Kennedy was involved in protests over the Corrib gas pipeline in north Mayo and was also said to have taken part in other demonstrations against the use of Shannon airport by US military aircraft and the May Day clashes in Dublin in 2004.

Garda officers confirmed last night that they had been alerted in advance by British police that he wanted to take part in the demonstrations here to bolster his 'eco warrior' status.

They said his participation was in accordance with agreed protocols but he did not work for gardai while based in this country and did not have any communication with the force about his activities.

Gardai said his participation was accepted, provided he did not break the law.

Officers pointed out that in the recent past the FBI agent David Rupert had been allowed to operate here while he was infiltrating dissident terrorist organisation the Real IRA and his subsequent evidence to the Special Criminal Court played a key part in securing the conviction of renegade boss Michael McKevitt, who was sentenced to 20 years imprisonment for directing an illegal organisation.

Mr Kennedy, whose wife and two children live in Kilbrin, near Kanturk, Co Cork, was known to protesters here and in Britain as Mark Stone and was nicknamed 'Flash'.

Garda chiefs are currently preparing a report on his activities here for new Justice Minister Brendan Smith.

The report was sought by former minister Dermot Ahern, who said that if Mr Kennedy had been active here, he would have been subject to Irish law, like any other person.

Mr Ahern appealed to anyone with information that suggested Mr Kennedy had broken the law to approach gardai.

The Department of Foreign Affairs has also been in touch with the British Embassy to seek clarification about his role in demonstrations here.

In March 2006, Mr Kennedy spent several days in north Mayo and offered advice on at a Shell-to-Sea protest workshop.

He also paid a visit to the home of Rossport Five member Willie Corduff with a group of British and Icelandic activists, who had arrived in the area to support the Corrib campaign.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/british-undercover-police-officer-allowed-to-join-dublin-protests-15063307.html#ixzz2BRmxhf5d


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 08:17 AM

"Do Canadians know about The Heights of Abraham ?

Dave H"

Plains of Abraham do you mean?

##############################################

What I was trying to explain--obviously without success--is that when one begins a thread there is NO suitable subject heading under which to put this type of question.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 08:34 AM

Easy - you just open a thread called 'The Jarrow March'. No prefix. It says it all. Not Folklore. Not some cosy romanticised version of history for folksy songwriters to muse over, for this is real life, part of the Social History of the British Working Classes whose lot it is to be shit on from on high by the Toffs 'n' Tories who feel their superiority is granted from on high.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 08:53 AM

Thank you, Blandiver, I wasn't aware that was an option. I'll know for the future.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 08:59 AM

I have written a moderator requesting a thread title change.

Thanks all for your assistance.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 09:00 AM

Before Wplfe got to the Plains of Abraham, he and his men had to climb the Heights of Abraham. This and his journey up the St Lawrence are the bits us English schoolboys used to get taught - in the days before school was all multicultural studies and condoms on bananas.

When he actually got to the Plains of Abraham - it was just routine another victory for the British army. They were a bit like the German football team nowadays - they won everything.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 09:23 AM

On our travels we occaisionally pass a motorway sign for The Heights of Abraham. What is it? Where is it? Is it worth a visit? Of course I could Google this info, but one thing I love about Mudcat is the human element...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 09:23 AM

The Battle of Quebec is still taught in schools, although it's on occasion given slightly different spins in different places. People wanting a good overview may wish to visit this Gov of Canada site.

I went there as a youth but I expect I'd get much more from a visit today.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 09:38 AM

LOLOL. My apologies. I see there is a place named that in England. There are heights that had to be scaled in the Battle of Quebec which took place on the Plains of Abraham at Quebec City. The Heights to which some of us are referring are in Derbyshire. Mea culpa. One people divided by a common language.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 10:21 AM

The English probably called their Derbyshire place after the Canadian one. Matlock bath is a sort of popular spa resort. It became popular at the height of Victorian triumphalism. The Heights are situated at the top of very high cliffs overlooking the River Derwent.You reach the Heights by cable car.

I haven't been because Denise is scared of heights. The views are said to be from the top of the cliffs and the cable car absolutely stunning over Derbyshire. Apparently its worth a visit - particularly if you've got kids. Theres a little fairground, a nice restaurant, a shop.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 02:45 PM

Many Canadians have heard of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham and some of them might remember that plucky British tars scaled the cliffs to prepare the way for the soldiers. A closer historical parallel to the Jarrow march would be the On To Ottawa Trek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-to-Ottawa_Trek ), culminating in the Regina Police Riot. This episode is much less famous than the Plains of Abraham set-to, although it is regularly included in catalogues of Canadian infamy along with the extinction of the Beothuk, the internment of Japanese Canadians, the head tax on Chinese immigrants, the Komagatu Maru incident, the High Arctic resettlement project, and so forth.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 02:54 PM

My point was, why was a Canadian asking if we British are aware of our own history ? so I wondered if he knew his own.

We know about Jarrow, it's still in living memory, a daft question IMHO

Dave H


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Subject: RE: I have to ask the Brits-The Jarrow March
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 05:57 PM

I think 999 just wanted to hear your tales about it. Folklore. Although it seems that if there's nothing important to argue about, micro-managing thread titles will keep a few of you occupied.

Just because YOU all know about it doesn't mean anyone else does. I hadn't heard of it until I hear a song by Cockersdale. If people know, they wouldn't ask you in a thread.

I change the thread title to remove "Folklore: I have to ask the Brits" because 999 asked me. I think it's valid, but I understand his not wanting to continue to upset the sensitive.


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Subject: RE: The Jarrow March
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 06:03 PM

Also... I don't know about Canadians, but they don't teach much British history in the U.S.-- if you were to ask the average American what the Jarrow March was, they'd likely ask if it were a dance step. I'm not being facetious.


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Subject: RE: The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 06:09 PM

Thank you very much, Jeri.


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Subject: RE: The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 06:15 PM

"micro-managing thread titles will keep a few of you occupied."

The reason I was perplexed Jeri, is that the Mods are usually so assiduous in removing the Folklore prefix from thread titles the US mods don't see it suited too, see Blandivers post in relation to that.

Arguably of course, and indeed as you essentially reason, non-US history IS as good as "Folklore" from the perspective of over there anyway..


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Subject: RE: The Jarrow March
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 06:24 PM

Interesting drift - if a sentry had given the alarm, as the British were climbing the Heights of Abraham, and the vulnerable climbers had been wiped out, the consequences for subsequent history could have been dramatic.

Arguably there might have been no American Revolution, and no French Revolution...


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Subject: RE: The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 09:13 PM

That's good thinking, Kevin.

Don't know whether you're aware--although I think you likely are--but the guys who climbed that Height numbered but two dozen. It was an element of surprise, much as was the one by the First Special Service Force in Italy at La Difensa (Hill 960), 1944. Far outnumbered by those they attacked, "SURPRISE" is certainly a force multiplier.


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Subject: RE: The Jarrow March
From: vectis
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 04:00 PM

My mother had recently moved to England from her home in Ireland to escape from the poverty at home.

Her weekly earnings paid her rent and, as a waitress, she depended on her tips for food, fuel etc so she was one of the urban poor.

When the Jarrow Marchers arrived she said that she and hundreds of others who saw them cried for them because no-one in London had seen such extreme poverty.

Their clothes were threadbare and ragged and most had no shoes or boots that had proper soles in them. All were skinny and looked ill.


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Subject: RE: The Jarrow March
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 05:11 PM

and we're heading back to those conditions, at a rate of knots and getting faster


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Subject: RE: The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,ada the cadre
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 07:51 AM

The Jarrow March was not the first or the only Hunger March in the UK & Hunger Marches also happened in other countries. Most were organised by the National Unemployed Workers Movement, Jarrow was unusual in gaining official Labour party support, thanks to "Red Ellen" Wilkinson MP and is therefore much better recorded. There were at least 4 National Hunger Marches during the 1930s. The NE contingent of the second National Hunger March set off for London on February 1st 1934. There are photos and first person accounts (John Longstaffe) that show music on that march drums and harmonicas. Not sure about pipes or squeezeboxes. The songs were often American ones from the Wobblies, "Pie in the Sky", Alleluia, I'm a bum." A particular favourite was
Mary had a little lamb, its fleece was white as snow,
Shouting out the battle-cry of freedom
And everywhere that Mary went the lamb was sure to go,
Shouting out the battle-cry of freedom.
Hurrah for Mary, Hurrah for the lamb.
Hurrah for the bolshie boys who don't give a damn,
And everywhere that Mary went the lamb was sure to go,
Shouting out the battle-cry of freedom.
On 17th-18th February they passed through Cambridge. I think this is what others on the thread are remembering when they talk about the responses of the students, which were mixed, most then as now probably avoided politics, many were right wing, but the student Socialist Society raised £120 for the marchers & met them outside Cambridge for the final march in. The left wing students who were there on that day have since recorded it in many places. One of the earliest is the chapter on Cambridge Socialism 1933-36 in John Cornford: A Memoir, first published in 1938. In it a group of Cornford's contemporaries recall, as if from a great distance, something that happened long ago.
'Going through town, shouting "Down with the Means Test" you would see some student you knew slightly staring, a little frightened, at the broken boots and old mackintoshes. The phrases about the power of the workers and the right to a better life suddenly meant something concrete and real.'
The next day their leader Wilf Jobling of Blaydon gave a speech that made an enormous impression on the students who heard it. One of them, Margot Heinemann said later, "It was the first time I had a feeling of being part of the working class movement, and that the working classes were not people you led but were the strength, the power that was going to bring socialism about. The exploited themselves- Sklaven werden dich befreien- the slaves will set you free, the Brecht song says."
Some of the Cambridge Communist students did indeed later work for the Comintern. Others joined the International Brigades in the Spanish Civil War where both John Cornford and Wilf Jobling were killed. Cornford died at Lopera on 28th December 1936 , the day after his 21st birthday. Wilf Jobling in February 1937 in Jarama, he was 27.


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Subject: RE: The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 07:05 PM

Ada- it was great to read such a reasoned argument about exactly what the Jarrow March was about and to hear that someone else has read (Red) Ellen Wilkinson's book on the subject.
It may be that such marches were the first time that inhabitants of the southern parts of England became aware of just exactly what effect the decisions of their elected Government were having on the people of the north -and Scotland and Wales- it was a long way away then (and maybe still is?) and easily ignored.
    The people of Cambridge, Northamptonshire and many other places south of Jarrow where the marchers stopped were no less than generous and many were totally appalled by the condition of the marchers, and the sheer desperation which drove them.
   It's difficult to appreciate that in our enlightened times (that was sarcasm by the way) but it's little wonder that so many in the 'regions' of UK are still so embittered about the posh boys who still run the country- for f... sake, surely we should know better by now?


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Subject: RE: The Jarrow March
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 05:09 PM

RE


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Subject: RE: The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 09:18 AM

The gap continues to grow. BBC News reports today;

The richest households in Britain are getting rich quickly, while the wealth of the poorest is growing much more slowly, figures show.
In the two years to June 2014, the wealthiest 10% of households got 21% richer than in the preceding two years, according to the Office for National Statistics.
However, the wealth of the poorest households increased by just 7% over the same period. Those in the middle got 17% richer.
The ONS noted that "the disparity in the change was large".


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Subject: RE: The Jarrow March
From: GUEST,jimbainbridge
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 09:27 AM

I've always liked the verse in one of Mike Waterson's songs......

The buggers up in Parliament they don't know bugger all
The rich are getting richer and the poor go to the wall
But on the fifth day of November, as you light his funeral pall
Remember Guy Fawkes the hero, who might have changed it all'


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Subject: RE: The Jarrow March
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 01:46 PM


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