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No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?

DigiTrad:
NO MAN'S LAND
NO MAN'S LAND (3)
NOBODY'S MOGGY'S LAND (No Moggy's Land)
WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY


Related threads:
No man's land protest (276) (closed)
Lyr Req: No Man's Land (Eric Bogle) (46)
Lyr Req: Willie MacBride's Answer to Finbar Furey (11)
Greenfields of France parody... (34)
Alternative lyrics to 'Willie McBride -Flower (7)
Green Fields of France (48)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France Parody (14)
Lyr/Chords Req: Green Fields of France (Engli (26)
Lyr Req: Green fields of france PARODY (21)
Lyr/Chords Req: No Man's Land (15)
Lyr Req: Parody on Green Fields of France (26)
Lyr Req: Willy Mc Bride (41)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride (Parody) (6)
Lyr Req: The green fields of France (32)
(origins) Green Fields of France (10)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France^^^ (22)
Lyr Req: Willie Mc Bride's OTHER reply (2)
Lyr/Chords Req: green fields of france (4)
Lyr Req: no man's land parody (3)
Lyr Add: Willie McBride parody - new chorus (5)
Lyr Add: Not Willie McBride (7)
Lyr Add: The Green Fields of France (12)
Lyr Req: Parody of Willie McBride (21)
Lyr Req: Parody of Green Fields of France (5)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride / No Man's Land (5) (closed)
Chords for The Green Fields of France/No Mans (3)


bradfordian 09 Nov 12 - 08:37 AM
Elmore 09 Nov 12 - 08:52 AM
Dave Hanson 09 Nov 12 - 09:11 AM
Leadfingers 09 Nov 12 - 10:56 AM
Georgiansilver 09 Nov 12 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 09 Nov 12 - 11:55 AM
Elmore 09 Nov 12 - 12:21 PM
GUEST 09 Nov 12 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 09 Nov 12 - 12:59 PM
Elmore 09 Nov 12 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Jock 09 Nov 12 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Azoic 09 Nov 12 - 01:58 PM
GUEST 09 Nov 12 - 02:47 PM
Elmore 09 Nov 12 - 03:01 PM
michaelr 09 Nov 12 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,Peterr 09 Nov 12 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 09 Nov 12 - 07:12 PM
kendall 09 Nov 12 - 07:36 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 09 Nov 12 - 08:19 PM
Elmore 09 Nov 12 - 10:31 PM
kendall 10 Nov 12 - 06:15 AM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Nov 12 - 06:37 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 12 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 10 Nov 12 - 07:48 AM
Elmore 10 Nov 12 - 10:13 AM
kendall 10 Nov 12 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Grandad8 10 Nov 12 - 10:47 AM
Elmore 10 Nov 12 - 10:59 AM
Edthefolkie 10 Nov 12 - 12:42 PM
michaelr 10 Nov 12 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,Frug 10 Nov 12 - 08:02 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 11 Nov 12 - 06:03 AM
Leadfingers 11 Nov 12 - 06:34 AM
kendall 11 Nov 12 - 06:34 AM
kendall 11 Nov 12 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 11 Nov 12 - 08:15 AM
Elmore 11 Nov 12 - 09:49 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 12 - 10:46 AM
GUEST 11 Nov 12 - 11:37 AM
kendall 11 Nov 12 - 11:53 AM
Elmore 11 Nov 12 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 11 Nov 12 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 11 Nov 12 - 12:28 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 12 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 11 Nov 12 - 01:03 PM
Elmore 11 Nov 12 - 01:29 PM
Elmore 11 Nov 12 - 01:55 PM
kendall 11 Nov 12 - 02:28 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 12 - 02:34 PM
Elmore 11 Nov 12 - 03:13 PM
oldhippie 11 Nov 12 - 08:51 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 12 Nov 12 - 04:50 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Nov 12 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 12 Nov 12 - 06:33 AM
kendall 12 Nov 12 - 06:46 AM
GUEST 12 Nov 12 - 08:17 AM
johncharles 12 Nov 12 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 12 Nov 12 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 12 Nov 12 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,Grandad8 12 Nov 12 - 10:01 AM
kendall 12 Nov 12 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 12 Nov 12 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 12 Nov 12 - 10:56 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Nov 12 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 12 Nov 12 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 12 Nov 12 - 11:43 AM
johncharles 12 Nov 12 - 12:36 PM
Allan Conn 12 Nov 12 - 06:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Nov 12 - 09:53 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 13 Nov 12 - 06:00 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Nov 12 - 07:08 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 13 Nov 12 - 08:21 AM
kendall 13 Nov 12 - 09:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Nov 12 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 13 Nov 12 - 10:58 AM
kendall 13 Nov 12 - 11:02 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 13 Nov 12 - 11:13 AM
GUEST 13 Nov 12 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 13 Nov 12 - 11:25 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Nov 12 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,anonymous 13 Nov 12 - 11:38 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Nov 12 - 12:08 PM
Elmore 13 Nov 12 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,Warren Fahey 13 Nov 12 - 04:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Nov 12 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 13 Nov 12 - 06:46 PM
Elmore 13 Nov 12 - 07:15 PM
bradfordian 03 Nov 16 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,DeanofRochester 04 Nov 16 - 04:08 AM
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Subject: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: bradfordian
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 08:37 AM

I came across a RAP version of this song a few years back but having done a search, it's not turning up here. I can't quite put my finger on it just now, maybe it came from elsewhere.
Can anyone point me to it please?


brad


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: Elmore
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 08:52 AM

What a dreadful thought. Sorry.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 09:11 AM

Didn't you mean c rap version ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 10:56 AM

The Folk Process is one thing , but a Rap version of Bogles song is sacrilege !


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 11:00 AM

An RIP version maybe but never rap....... defo sacrilege!


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 11:55 AM

It's the other way round actually - the thoughts that a music as wonderful & life-affirming as Hip-Hop could be any way sullied by such godawful mawkish tripe as No Man's Land is too much for me to bear. I was going to keep this to myself but seeing the usual Mudcat bigoted idiocy trotted out here I thought I'd try & redress the balance.

Tonight I'll be wearing my poppy with pride, and I'll be singing My Boy Jack & Banks of Sicilly - two songs which acknowledge the humanity of war as grim necessity without disrepecting those heroes who made the ultimate sacrifice, as No Man's Land does. It may have happened again, and again, but their deaths were not in vain.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: Elmore
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 12:21 PM

BALDERDASH.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 12:57 PM

'but their deaths were not in vain'.
So, what exactly was achieved by the millions killed in that war Blandiver? Just asking!


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 12:59 PM

Sorry, Elmore - but there's a lovely big vibrant world outside of the Folk Box, it's full of great pop, classical & traditional music & lovingly realistic world views that revere the those heroes brave enough to fight & die for what they believed in without having some revisionist peacenik pissing on their graves.

Still, could have been worse, eh? At least it wasn't The Band Played Waltzing Matilda...


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: Elmore
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 01:52 PM

Blandiver: Based on our disagreement over one song, you're making unwarranted assumptions about the lack of diversity in my musical taste and knowledge. I'm 71 years old and currently taking courses in the works and lives of Robert and Clara Schumann, and operas based on the plays of Shakespeare. In my time I've seen artists as diverse as Billie Holiday , Isaac Stern, Charles Aznavour, and Ravi Shankar in concert. So take your condescending remarks about"a lovely big vibrant world outside of the Folk Box, and stuff them up the hole in your culture.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: GUEST,Jock
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 01:58 PM

>>So, what exactly was achieved by the millions killed in that war

Speculation is an inexact science but the forces that shaped Nazism would still have existed in a victorious Germany. With an improved polity and better economics, there would ultimately have been another world war, but with a far higher chance of going the other way.

I'm old enough to have known many who fought on the Western Front, but for what it's worth, they widely agreed that they had done something worthwhile.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: GUEST,Azoic
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 01:58 PM

If you are open to suggestion,please try auditioning June Tabor's reading of this epic.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 02:47 PM

Well, whoever is doing it, go back to the source; Eric Bogle. The various versions based on the Furey's butchering of the song are all over the internet, and bear little resemblance to the words written by Bogle. You'll be surprised just how wrong it is.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: Elmore
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 03:01 PM

A lesser known, but excellent version, with the original lyrics is done by Priscilla Herdman on one of her earlier albums. Still, nothing beats hearing Eric perform it in person, which I was lucky to do on one of his final North American tours. A charming man, and a talented singer and writer.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 03:18 PM

...disrepecting those heroes who made the ultimate sacrifice, as No Man's Land does

Just how does it do that?


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride
From: GUEST,Peterr
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 05:10 PM

I wonder if Baldiver and I are thinking of the same song? Or indeed if he/she has tried to sing 'The band played 'Waltzing Matilda' without choking up? I know I can't.
Is the 'Banks of Sicily' referred to the Hamish Henderson song? It's great but in my opinion of a very different sentiment (as in genre rather than sentmental)


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 07:12 PM

you're making unwarranted assumptions about the lack of diversity in my musical taste and knowledge

No - I'm making assumptions based on your BALDERDASH post.

Is the 'Banks of Sicily' referred to the Hamish Henderson song? It's great but in my opinion of a very different sentiment (as in genre rather than sentmental)

My point exactly, BOS doesn't preach, just paints a wee vignette of wartime experience - by one who actually experienced it. There's no message here, or heavy handed moral bullying. I didn't sing it tonight anyway - I didn't feel I could get through it without choking, so I went for The Long Peggin' Awl instead.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 07:36 PM

Anyone who trashes Eric Bogle within my hearing could end up wearing his instrument.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 08:19 PM

What was I saying about heavy handed moral bullying????


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Elmore
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 10:31 PM

Blandiver: Given your hostile attitude, it's impossible to take you seriously, so I won't waste my time responding to you again. Good night, and good luck.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 06:15 AM

Old proverb, "If you know the dog bites..."


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 06:37 AM

Here's a German version, by Hannes Wader - "Es ist an der Zeit" Perhaps Blandiver might think this also disrespects "those heroes who made the ultimate sacrifice". I don't think it does, in English or German. Quite the reverse.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 06:59 AM

Cat among the pigeons
A song about a song rather than a war
Jim Carroll

Willie Macbride You Bastard You
Crawford Howard (adapted by Fintan Vallely

Oh, youse know that big long song about Willie MacBride,
Well, to tell yis the god's truth, it turns me inside,
You'll hear it on the Shankhill, you'll hear't on the Falls,
And mostly from people who can't sing at all,
You go out to the pub on a Saturday night,
For a pint and the crack, a-and things are all right
'Till some boy with his shirt out
Slumps down by your side —and says:
"Zing-zzz z'wunn zbouzz Wllee Mmm-Bride,"

Ah, you say you don't know it (but this will not do)
For his plan all along has been to sing it to you.
He knocks over your drink, and takes off in a key
That wasn't constructed for Pava-Rotti;
And with the lines grinding on, Oh, the horror gets worse,
As it slowly sinks in—that he knows every verse.
With his arm round your shoulder, by now he's your friend—and
He's determined to sing this damn thing to the end.

CHORUS:
Did he sing the song badly?
Did they gulp their pints madly?
Did we all fall asleep before we'd finished our round?
Did the barstaff cry, "Last drinks" to stir us?
Did the punters cry, "Thank God it's o-o-o-ver"?

You slip out to the jacks for a quart'r of an hour,
Kill time at the TV set out in the Bar,
And then you sneak back thinking he might have tired,
But he's still choking on gas, tangled up in barbed wire;
And for ten minutes more he continues this rant
Again, and again, and again till you can't
Care that he's up to his oxters in gutters in trench—es, or give
Two tupp'ny damns where the red poppies dance.
CHORUS

Oh, Willie MacBride why the hell did you die?
The trouble you'd have saved if you'd come back alive.
If you'd got a good job, or signed on the b'roo—
We wouldn't have to endure this ould mush about you.
Aye but maybe it's better for you that you're dead
With the green fields of France piled up over your head;
For the trouble you've caused us since that day you died,
Oh, rusty shrapnel's too good for you, Willie MacBride.
CHORUS

And you—Eric Bogle, just what was your game?
White crosses mark out the road to your fame.
Could you not guess the Fureys might drive us insane?
Can you not call them off?—Jasus, we're not to blame!
And why d'you complain about shellfire and smoke?
Sure with PA and cig'rettes, the pubs are no joke.
Where we drink to his mem'ry each weekend we're broke
Makin' Willie Mac Bride's fans consumptive ould soaks.
CHORUS


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 07:48 AM

I'm not hostile; not yet do I bite. It is not me screaming BALDERDASH in upper case, nor dismissing one of the most vibrant manifestations of Popular Traditional Music as 'crap'; neither do I threaten violence to those of a different opinion. All I'm doing is expressing an alternative view born of certain experience of having lost friends / family in various wars down the years.

When I was fifteen I knew a chap who'd lost both legs at Dunkirk when he was only fifteen himself, having lied about his age to join up. That was in 1976 - he would have been 51 when I knew him - same age I am now. We used to sit in the graveyard smoking together, looking out over the gravestones, across the pitheaps, pitheads and rolling farmland - the contented old soldier and the idealistic young hippy with his dulcimer. But I knew that I owed my every freedom to heroes like him whose bravery I still cannot conceive of and will be eternally grateful for.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Elmore
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 10:13 AM

peace


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 10:45 AM

Actually, if I am not on Prednisone I wouldn't really assault anyone for having poor taste in music; I would simply walk away.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Grandad8
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 10:47 AM

So is there a rap version of the song?


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Elmore
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 10:59 AM

Found a rap called No Man's Land on Youtube, but it was not the Eric Bogle song.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 12:42 PM

OK, so Sean's got a blind spot about "Matilda" and "No Man's Land". Big blooming deal. And I'm somewhat confused - is Eric Bogle a revisionist who pisses on graves then? Do me a favour, old cock.

Most of us have relatives who served, were wounded or died in the Great and other wars. My great uncle was shell shocked and I only remember him as a poor old trembling wreck. Many old soldiers echoed Eric Bogle's sentiments. I give you the late Harry Patch - "Too many died. War isn't worth one life. War was the calculated and condoned slaughter of human beings". Not unadjacent to "And the young people say - What are they marching for? And I ask myself the same question".

I also, maybe unfairly, give you Rudyard Kipling. "My Boy Jack" was written by a man who is supposed to have pulled strings with Lord Roberts to get his half blind son an army commission - with the inevitable result.

"Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?"

Cor, what a revisionist.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 06:01 PM

Blandiver: I'd still like you to explain disrespecting those heroes who made the ultimate sacrifice, as No Man's Land does

Just how does it do that?


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Frug
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 08:02 PM

If anyone finds this please let me know as I'd love to hear it. As to those who condemn it without a hearing well come on lighten up. Rap is a very significant musical development and performance style , maybe Willie would have enjoyed it too!

If you listen to original rap lyrics there is a lot of protest, social comment and documentary in there much like folk music.. of course there is crap too just like there is beaucoup de crap in folk music .. Don't condemn it out of hand otherwise you condemn yourselves


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 06:03 AM

I wouldn't really assault anyone for having poor taste in music

Why are Folkies so damn righteous? I blame the legacy of prescriptive moralising that typified the early revival and the religiosity of the Folk Orthodoxy thereafter. No Man's Land is a classic example of such righteousness. I've often toyed with writing a song in which the ghost of Private William McBride answers Eric Bogle's mawkish tripe - I think it would be quite short: Feck off, hippy - go sing about something you actually know about.

This is why I love Traditional Song - no one's preaching at you, just telling it like it is. But right from an early age I'd be going into folk clubs, weeping to The Plains of Waterloo and sitting in grim disbelief when it would be followed in the next breath by The Band Played Waltzing Matilda as if they were somehow related. I guess I never did have the Folk Gene...


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 06:34 AM

Blandiver - You are entitled to your opinion but you devaalue that opinion when you say No Mans Land is mawkish AND preaching , then start preaching yourself about music !


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 06:34 AM

It's been my experience that folkies have a much higher than average IQ than most others.
To me, rap is not only not music, it is an annoying, unnecessary noise.Repititous, boring and juvenile.

If you like rap, rock,elevator music etc. thats your problem. This site is clearly dedicated to folk and blues.It is YOU who is in the wrong sand box. To come in here and think you are going to trash our music without feedback is like a child telling us what to read.We will always prefer War & Peace to Batman comics.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 06:45 AM

I'm still on prednisone.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 08:15 AM

then start preaching yourself about music !

Hey - I don't preach. I urge & inform. There is a not-so subtle difference. Especially in the light of Kendal's hilarious claims regarding the Folk IQ.

To come in here and think you are going to trash our music..

Steady on there, Kendal - I am a life-long lover of Traditional Folk Song & Ballad; I live it and I breathe it, and I come here to celebrate that fact by digging over the mulch & minutiae with those of a similar cast o' mind. To this end I've been seduced into the Folk Scene as pretty much the only place where I can go to sing & listen to such music with a bunch of hearty rogues, ne'erdowells & curmudgeonly old farts (all of whom I love dearly) to get pissed, smoke fags* & roar along with 1000's or more in part Seance, part Holy Communion and part Fellowship with all men, and women, who sing.

The downside to this Traddy Glory is that every now and then someone feels compelled to sing No Man's Land (or something very like it), and everyone else feels compelled to weep along with the noxious sentimentality of the thing. Sometimes, you can't always run for the bar; sometimes, you're trapped, and so must listen. It's one of the real hazzards of Folk Clubs - being preached at in the assumption that just by being there you're going to agree with such mawkish mush. Not me. I'm not one of the converted to be preached at - and I never will be. If I want a song about soldiers I'll sing Bellamy's setting of Kipling's Ford o' Kabul River or Tommy or something suitably Traditional like The Fox Jumps Over the Parson's Gate or the aforemention Plains of Waterloo.

We will always prefer War & Peace to Batman comics.

Which reminds me, did you know the working title of War and Peace was War - What is it Good For? This charming piece of trivia inspired the Edwin Starr classic of the same name. Me - I think I'd prefer the Batman comics.

* Though I gave uop smoking 12 years ago, and cigarettes in public houses are a thing of our remote past, in my heart the ideal singaround is always conducted through a fug of beer stench and thick delicious fag smoke.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Elmore
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 09:49 AM

Blandiver: I thought I was through with you, but I can't help myself because you remind me so much of someone in my family who is intelligent, successful and charming, but , on occasion, a pain in the ass.In your first entry you revealed the forty pound chip on your shoulder, and have continued to do so in subsequent rants. Okay. As far as I'm concerned, You've won the argument you initiated. In the process you've made many of us angry and upset. Feel better now? Perhaps that was your goal.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 10:46 AM

"Hey - I don't preach. I urge & inform"
Arrogant crap.
No you don't - you only tear down the work of others without offering anything in its place.
You despise collectors, yet there isn't a traditional song (which you claim to love) that hasn't come to you in one form or another other than through the hands of a collector
You deride researchers, yet you offer no sign that you have done any research yourself - easier to tear down something somebody else has constructed rather than produce something by your own efforts.
You ridicule folkies, yet your own output is 'folkie at it's most has -beenish, rather reminiscent of the bunch of ageing punks that used to hand round Chealsea's Kings Road on the corner of Royal Avenue up to a dozen years ago - they maybe still there if they haven't joined Monty Python's Norwegian Blue.
You even belittle the efforts of the thousands of youngsters coming to traditional music here in Ireland for the first time, who have ascertained that that music will survive for at least another couple of generations.
You seem to by trying to make a name for yourself by telling us how bad everybody else is rather than cleaning up your own act.
Whichever of your numerous identities you adopt on this forum, your contempt for others gives you away each time.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 11:37 AM

Strange how one question "Is their a rap song?" can lead to so much hatred, no wonder in the world we all live in people can't answer yes or no. No wonder wars start and the innocent suffer. In this case we who wait for the answer to "Is there a rap song" must witness two people arguing about stuff that has no bearing on the question.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 11:53 AM

I don't hate anyone.Can you imagine what would happen if one of us went to a Rave and started singing Lord Randall?
My point is, there is a place for everthing, and this aint the place for rap, rock or any other non music crap.
Like smoking, if you must pollute the air, take it outside.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Elmore
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 12:20 PM

Guest: I suggest you look more closely at this thread and the initial entry by the person who turned the thread into a quarrel. It was mean-spirited and hostile. By inference it was an attack on an artist whom many of us love, and is impossible to go unchallenged. Once again, I believe it was a deliberate attempt to agitate many of our members. It worked. Much earlier I stated tha a rap version of the song in question was a terrible idea. I stand by that , but it doesn't mean that I'm attacking an entire genre, or the people who are part of it. If I could type, I'd continue this harangue.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 12:20 PM

You despise collectors / You deride researchers,

You misunderstand my position. I'm all too aware of the debt we owe to the collectors, just as as I'm all too aware of the gulf of class condscension that informs the Revival in general and the concept of 'Folk' and 'Folkore' as a whole. Even unto this day the general demographic of Folk is middle-class and has little to do with the working-class men & women who made & sang these songs* in the first place.

yet you offer no sign that you have done any research yourself

My opinions are based on a life time of empirical research; I'm not making this stuff up. As a kid we were 'told' that The Blackleg Miner was a traditional song from out local villages of Seghill andf Seaton Delaval despite the fact that the only people who said this were our middle-clas teachers and no one had ever heard of it. Now it seems A L Lloyd wrote himself based on an American song. I grew up with music in a working-class context - everything from Kipling to stories of Paul Robeson, Northumbrian pipes, Krautrock, punk etc etc. The only people doing 'Folk', with significant exception, were middle-class revisionists.

easier to tear down something somebody else has constructed rather than produce something by your own efforts.

There's nothing to construct; the Folk Scene is there, I'm just being honest about it - telling it like it is, not tearing it down. I believe Harker's Fakesong, Bob Pegg's Folk (and Rites & Riots, and Boyes' Imagined Village have done the same thing.

You ridicule folkies

With some good reason - but not without masses of respect...

yet your own output is 'folkie at it's most has -beenish,

I just do what I do, Jim - there's nothing deliberate about it one way or the other, althoughy I'm proud that whilst I've never been played on Radio Two, I've been featured three times over the years on Radio Three.

You even belittle the efforts of the thousands of youngsters coming to traditional music here in Ireland for the first time, who have ascertained that that music will survive for at least another couple of generations.

Not so. I might be wary of it - I might not even like it - but certainly I don't belittle it. I love the old players & the old music (Seamus Ennis, Felix Doran et al) but to my ears there a big difference between that & what people are doing today. Disparity - or just personal taste.

Whichever of your numerous identities you adopt on this forum

I want to change my name officially, but Joe Offer in his infinite wisdom won't let me. I make no secret of who I am.

your contempt for others gives you away each time.

I have no contempt for anyone - neither have I expressed any - not even to you with your overblown & deeply personal attempts at character assassination, such as this one.

Nice one, Jim!

   
* By which I mean Traditional songs & lore, and the Idioms thereof.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 12:28 PM

Once again, I believe it was a deliberate attempt to agitate many of our members.

I'm sorry if it upsets your fundamentalist leanings, but all I was doing, and am doing, is expressing my opinion about A SONG. This is my right and entitlement. I've also explained why I hold those opinions about that song. I am not trying to agitate anyone and only entered this thread in response to a series of petty statements deriding Hip-Hop.

Go look closely yourself - it's all there in black & white! So please, kindly keep your nastiness to yourself.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 12:36 PM

Once again you dole out denials which in no way justify, or even explain your arrogantly destructive approach on virtually every thread you pontificate on.
I think the pits was your out-of-hand dismissal of the music the kids are playing here at present - you show not indication that you are aware of what is going here - but then again, you don't bother qualifying any of the stones you throw.
Your continuing dismissal of folkies is little more than self-flagellation as your work personifies a folkiness that has long been abandoned by the revival.
As for my "deeply personal attempts at character assassination," - I suggest you try to work out the effect your own sneery snide has on those who do the work rather than pontificate.
It's interesting to see that your unpleasant and constant sniping has drawn some response from others - personally I'd written you off as an armchair tosser.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 01:03 PM

Is that the same arm chair tosser you were wanting to swap notes with a few weeks back? What the hell are you on, man?


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Elmore
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 01:29 PM

Blabdiver: My empirical evidence demonstrates that we agree that the rap version of THE SONG would be dreadful. As for my nastiness, I leave it to others to decide who's the king of nasty in this thread.How can we miss you if you won't go away?


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Elmore
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 01:55 PM

Sorry for the above typo. I meant to address Blandiver, not Blabdiver. (honest)


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 02:28 PM

Name calling lowers the thread even further.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 02:34 PM

"What the hell are you on, man?"
Somebody else who can't take what he dishes out regularly and at great length - nothing new there either
I'm off
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Elmore
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 03:13 PM

Damn. I declared myself out of this thread, then jumped back in. Sorry if I've offended anyone. This only happens to me when somebody takes a shot at a peformer that I admire. Oh, well. 30 years of therapy down the drain. Guess I'll go for a drink.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: oldhippie
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 08:51 PM

Perhaps the confusion is due to a rap artist named Willie McBride, who can be found on soundcloud. But he does not perform the Eric Bogle song.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 04:50 AM

Somebody else who can't take what he dishes out regularly and at great length

Whatever I may question here, be it No Man's Land or the religiosity of the Folk Movement as a whole, I never attack anyone personally. As we've seen on this thread people have been quick to take offence, which you've used as an opportunity NOT to defend the subject in question (about which you made your own feelings clear on in your Cat Among the Pigeons post of 10 Nov 12 - 06:59 AM), but to launch an entirely unprovoked and wildy inaccurate personal assault on me.

I so not dish it out. If you (or anyone else) takes personal offence at what I write here, then I suggest you actually bother to read it before flying off the handle with a barrage of petty insults and entirely false assusations (themselves based on half-remembered misinterprations of things I said years ago). Here's a novel idea, Jim - why not try actually discussing the issue at hand for a change? Could be interesting. But no - I guess even your response to this will be along the usual you-are-a-twat-and-an-armchair-tosser-who-demolishes-rather-than-builds-and-your-so-called-music-is-shit-because-I-was-once-a-member-of-the-critics-club-now-I'm-out-of-here-so-don't-even-bother-replying lines.

Oh, and my earlier comment Hey - I don't preach. I urge & inform. was meant in jest. I'm sorry I didn't make this clear enough by inserting a smiley face.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 05:22 AM

"I never attack anyone personall"
By sweeping aside without qualification academics, folkies, collectors children playing Irish music.... whoever, you dismiss whatever work they might have done on their subjecy out of hand, and the snidey, sneery, pompously verbose way you do just that is as personal as it gets.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 06:33 AM

you dismiss whatever work they might have done on their subjecy out of hand

A slight overreaction here, Jim. I have never dismissed anything out of hand, just pointed out (from time to time) that class-condescension & patronisation are inherent in the underlying assumptions of The Folk Revival as a whole. It's there for all to see - an essentially bourgeois / academic movement founded on the appropriation & subsequent taxidermy & taxonomy of working-class art which is anathema to the nature of the art itself - much less to the culture that gave rise to it.

Tradition = John England singing The Seeds of Love as he goes about his daily duties.
Revival = Cecil Sharp collecting The Seeds of Love, making a parlour piano arrangement to perform to his posh mates that self same evening.

So what? I've read the books, I've research in the libraries, I've collected in the field, and I've even attended & performed at academic conferences. The best academics, like the best Folkies, are all too aware of this state of affairs and the ethical complexities arising therefrom. Indeed - they revell in it.

*

And if I find the idea of state-sponsored prescribed folk correctness anathema to the root cause & innate radicalism of working-class musical creativity, then please forgive my enthusiasm for a music defined primarily by social context than aforementioned stare sponsored folk correctness. The working-class will always have their music - just it might not seem that way (or be of any interest to) folkies, which is what partly moved me to join in with this thread in the first place, reacting to the usual folk-righteous dismissal of one of the most significant & dynamic traditions of popular music making ever to emerge: greater than Folk, greater than the Blues, yet implicity a product of both infused with the inspirations of German electronica in general (and the genius of Kraftwerk in particular).

I first became aware of Hip-Hop in 1980 when a friend came back from New York laden down with 12" mixes of a music that really made me sit up and listen. 32 years on, I'm still listening to Hip-Hop and 'Rap Music' in a state of reverential awe - always amazed at the inventive vernacular genius manifest in wondrous diversity on both sides of the Atlantic, even in Japan and France. Nothing Folk has to offer comes close to this vibrancy, except, of course, the primal numinescence of this thing we call The Tradition.

So - let's talk, eh, old man? But if all you're going to offer is another barrage of Feck! Arse! Girls! then perhaps best not bother.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 06:46 AM

Everyone is entitled to my opinion. (David Brinkley)


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 08:17 AM

will you guys never learn - dont feed the Troll!


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: johncharles
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 08:45 AM

I have searched the web and been unable to find a rap version of Willie Mcbride. No one else seems to have found it . Therefore the answer to the initial enquiry is to look elsewhere.
As to the merits of Willie Mcbride as a song, this is a value judgement with mawkish at one end of the continuum and a meaningful and moving anti-war song at the other; find your own position on the line.
Historians are still debating whether soldiers died in vain 100 years after the event so I doubt we will resolve that one here. This debate is also current in terms of the worth of soldiers fighting a war in Afghanistan.
John


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:01 AM

A Troll in Mudcat-speak is simply someone who dares suggest that a difference of opinion is a worthy thing - certainly worthy of discussion and civilised argument - but instead all they manage is to raise the righteous ire of the mob & their righteous agitators with accusations of being 'Hostile' and a 'Tosser!' etc. etc. I'm still optimistic enough think of Mudcat as a civilised & erudite forum where such debate is possible - just as long as Jim Carroll stays off the Windolene.

The only true Trolls around here are the faceless GUESTS who post such unthinking sloganeering as don't feed the troll with the purpose of causing bother. Sorry for feeding him, but I'm also optimistic enough to believe there's a least a shread of humanity worth fighting for around here...

What do you, reckon, Elmore???


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:24 AM

Historians are still debating whether soldiers died in vain 100 years after the event so I doubt we will resolve that one here.

My point is that whatever the benefits of hindsight, one should respect the fact that countless ordinary soldiers such as Private Willie McBride have made the ultimate sacrifice in good faith, and are thus worthy of greater respect than the song is suggesting. War is a human reality - it's not nice, nor yet is it desirable, but we will always need heroes like Willie McBride whose courage in the face of such an overwhelming hell I cannot even begin conceive of, much less dare to comment on other than with absolute respect.

I am not, nor yet will I ever be, a pacifist. And whilst back in the 80s I actively marched & supported CND in fear of my country becoming an unsinkable air-craft carrier for the Yanks, I nevertheless regard PEACE as much as a middle-class myth as FOLK. Indeed, the last time I inspired as much mobbish righteousness as this is when I dared to wear a Red Poppy at a Storytelling event...   

Songs such as My Boy Jack, Banks of Sicily and Ford o' Kabul River resonate with the respect and honour of human experience that is entirely lost in the mawkish agenda of songs like No Man's Land. I know in saying so I'm paraphrasing what I've already said, but having been accused of being an agitating hostile nasty old tosser-cum-troll-fol-de-rol for saying it, I feel it bears repeating in the hope people might have settled down by now.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Grandad8
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 10:01 AM

Perhaps in one or two hundred years popular songs we hear now will become folk songs because of what I have quoted below collected from various sources. Imagine then in a pub a grand gentleman of 90 saying "let me sing you a folk song passed down to me its called "Yesterday" or how about a song called "Stan" (Eminem)

A hundred years before the new millennium when there were no mechanical recording devices a singer would sing the song and if it meant something to the listener it would be remembered.
'Handed down from generation to generation are the songs of the people; some of these songs have a history of which the true origin will never be found.
Twenty years before the new millennium the general opinion was that to qualify as a folksong it must have spent part of its life out of print and in the mouths of singers. This is of course a definition to which no two folksong enthusiasts would agree making it difficult to lay down a firm set of rules saying whether a song is a folksong.
'We cannot shut our eyes', wrote a Dorset collector of songs. 'To the fact that the old traditional songs are fast dying out. Boys educated at a National School think it almost beneath their dignity to sing the ungrammatical, unrhythmical and unpoetical songs in which their fathers and forefathers delighted.' Another collector had the same fears when he wrote. 'The old traditional songs are fast dying out, never to be recalled. They are now seldom or never sung, but rather remembered, by old people.' The greatest collector of folksongs Cecil Sharp declared that 'the last generation of folk singers must have been born not later than sixty or seventy years ago - say 1840.'
Collectors of songs thought that they had heard the swan song in the pre-1914 era but they were wrong. 1960 saw a great folksong song revival.
Labourers, milkmaids, people in service would sing the songs because for them they were too an escape from the harsh realities of life. They treated the songs as an escape into nostalgia and for Heather she experienced the same feelings, the songs were a powerful communication from the past. (Quotes collected from various sources)


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 10:16 AM

Willy McBride points out the stupidity of war.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 10:49 AM

Collectors of songs thought that they had heard the swan song in the pre-1914 era but they were wrong. 1960 saw a great folksong song revival.

This isn't strictly true. What the collectors were interested in was the tail-end of a vibrant culture of working-class song making in a particular idiom (which, as Sam Lee & others have demonstated, isn't quite dead yet!) - whereas the Great Folksong Revival (which began somewhat earlier than 1960) is something very different indeed. This is why there is a very clear demarkation between 'Traditional Singers and 'Revival Singers', though there is a persistent conceit amongst certain members of the latter that what they are doing is 'Continuing The Tradition', but nothing could be further from the truth.

This isn't to devalue what the Revival has done, and is continuing to do, just to say that one thing it most certainly ISN'T doing is continuing the tradition. Indeed, one might argue that The Revival has done much to obfuscate the vibrancy of Traditional Folk Song by an over association with other musical idioms (singer-songwriter / MOR pop / rock derivations etc.) in the name of Folk. Though no purist - I'd say myself that the only way to experience the pure beauty of a Traditional Folk Song is to listen to a Traditional Singer singing it.

Songs like Yesterday & Stan are products of respective traditions of working-class song-making every bit as vital as that which gave us 'Folk Songs'. Both of these songs and the people who made them have inspired & redefined the traditions that gave rise to them. Both were masters of their respective arts who raised the bar for successive artists to rise to. In rock this lead to all sorts of developments (where would the glories of Prog be without The Beatles??) and in Hip-Hop you can hear how Eminem's edgy storytelling & exacting use of language & sampling have inspired dozens of artists who followed him, both great & small. Kanye West is an obvious example, but I've heard virtuoso street rappers in London, Manchester and Liverpool who have seized upon Eminem's vibrant style and taken it even highter - and I'm talking kids as young as 12 here.

This music - Popular Music - is truly living & vibrant vernacular tradition; wheras Folk is a revived idiomatic hobby that operates at several very significant cultural & social removes from The Tradition that it supposedly revives. Maybe that accounts for its curmudgeonly passions and fundamentalist religiosity? Who knows? But don't get me wrong I've been a Folkie since the age of 11, and 40 years on I'm a Folkie still; I only feel the need to add such qualifications least one of my accusers comes along howling about me belittling 'their kind of music' rather than just trying to keep things in perspective.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 10:56 AM

Willy McBride points out the stupidity of war.

The songs makes that assumption for sure; for Pte. W. McBride (and millions like him down the aeons of human history fighting to defend heath & home) it wasn't stupid in the slightest. This is why I hate the song & its sentiments, because it assumes a position of idealistic moral correctness which has nothing to do with the real world in which war is a grim necessity to which we owe our present freedoms.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:00 AM

There are interesting disagreements, and there are tantrums. Tantrums are a waste of energy and time.
................
I make no secret of who I am.

So post in your own name, and stick to it. Or don't...


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:38 AM

Tantrums, McGrath?

And who I am has nothing to do with my name. On Mudcat, I've had a few over the years, but most people here go by assumed names - so why just stick to the one?

That said... Jack Blandiver is a name I chose back in summer & I've been consistent with it ever since, though I dropped the Mudcatter Formerly Known As Suibhne O'Piobaireachd early on. Although I emailed Joe Offer in good faith back in June, he refuses to change it, or even acknowledge my request. I'm not too bothered about the weird laws, hierachies and attendant sycophancies that go on around here; Mudcat is a great place for a blether with the rank & file and a fine resource and good place to just lurk, soaking up the wit & wisdom. So until Pope Joe honours my request, I'm happy being GUEST Blandiver.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:43 AM

To the OP of this thread...

I'm so sorry about all of this, Barry. I bet you wish you'd never bothered, eh? If that rap version of No Man's Land ever does turn up, you will be sure to let us know, won't you? Hell, I'm even thinking of recording it myself...


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: johncharles
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:36 PM

Many made the sacrifice in good faith, many realised they had been sold the old lie, dulce et decorum est pro patria mori, and some who were pushed beyond their limit were shot by their own side for "cowardice".
john


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 06:36 PM

"war is a grim necessity to which we owe our present freedoms." But the song is specifically about WWI. I think many people, and not just Bogle and a few idealists, would struggle to understand why the said war was a necessity? As well as WWI it also evokes Flodden. Bogle showing his Scottish Borders roots. Flodden was another completely unnecessary conflict. Germany wasn't threatening British freedom in the run up to WWI and likewise England wasn't directly threatening Scottish freedom in the run up to Flodden. I take it you are not suggesting all war is necessary?


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:53 PM

Tantrums? Precisely. And the trouble is, tantrums lead to tantrums. Which I suppose is often the intention.
........................................

Bogle's song in no way "disrespects" the soldiers who lie beneath the "countless white crosses", and who really did believe that this was, in the words of a book by HG Wells written in 1914, "The War That Will End War". Tragically it turned out that this was not only wrong but the reverse of the truth. It was the war that provided the mainspring of wars of one sort and another that are still continuing today after nearly a century. But recognising that in no way "disrespects" those who died in that belief or that hope. On either side.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 06:00 AM

But recognising that in no way "disrespects" those who died in that belief or that hope.

I disagree. It's both disrepectful and patronising to address historical hindsight and hippy revisionism to a casualty of an admittedly unpleasant circumstance, but one who nevertheless gave his life in very good faith. War to end wars? Very nearly, if one views the events of the first half of the 20th century as a continuity culminating in the development of the atomic bomb, which has kept the international 'peace' for nigh-on 70 years.

I take it you are not suggesting all war is necessary?

War is integral to human nature & culture, as might be demonstrated by a grance through the history books and a casual analysis of the actual nature of aforementioned 20th / 21st Century 'peace' - and a consideration of the price we've had to pay for it. That said, I shudder to think how things might have been if a) Nazi Germany had developed the bomb first or b) if it hadn't been developed at all.

I must admit, I'm torn on this one. Part of me is still the old green-punk anarcho-peacenik who once marched to Sun Ra's anthemic hip-hop inspired Nuclear War, yet part remains the cynical realist for whom The Groundhogs' folk-acoustic blues Thank Christ For the Bomb still rings true to this day. Would that things were ever so simple, eh?

Mostly though, my gripe is with folkies dissing Hip-Hop, which is of infinitely greater musical, artistic, human, cultural, historical & commercial relevance than Folk will ever be. It's also about having had to put up with being preached at by these two Eric Bogle songs for the last nigh on 40 years when all I ever wanted in a folk club was to drink beer, smoke fags and bask in the hearty glow of a bunch of revivalist traddies singing Traditional Folk Songs & Ballads. The Medium is the Message. I have the same gripe with a good number of such songs actually - and artists - but this is neither the time nor the place.   

It's also not a tantrum, just a bit blether to pass a cheery half-hour's procrastination over more pressing matters to which I must now, alas, address myself as my deadline looms...


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 07:08 AM

While the song is evoked by "Willie McBride" - it's not really addressed to him. It's about a man generations later talking to himself, sharing the kind of thoughts that are inescapable for most of us when we go to visit one of the amazing war cemetaries in Flanders and around. You walk around among the rows of gravestones and look at the names and try to make some sense of it all.

There's no "hippy revisionism" in it. (The idea of Eric Bogle as a hippy is indeed bizarre...) You know that if you'd been there then you'd probably have joined up and shared the hope that it would somehow make things better - and likely enough it would be you lying there now.

The belief that this was to be "The War that will End War", so widely and generously and hopefully held at the time, turned out to be a cruel illusion. Even those few people who still see it as a justified war, "a cruel necessity" would mostly share this judgement, I would suggest.

But it just didn't end wars, it gave birth to wars. The Second World War, the Russian Revolution, the splintering of the empires in Europe and the Middle East, the Balfour Declaration and its consequences... No doubt there would have been wars since then - but the wars we have had have very largely had their root in the events of 1914-1918. That was the history that was chosen. One in which we can indeed
"shudder to think how things might have been if ... Nazi Germany had developed the bomb first".

And maybe mourn for a world in which there never was a Nazi Germany, never was a Holocaust and a Second World War... and in which those heartbreaking war graves across Northern France and Belgium, and Great War memorials in every town and village never needed to come into being.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 08:21 AM

I hear what you're saying - and with no little sympathy believe you me - but sadly there's a world of difference between what is & what ought to be. As an old mate of mine once said the only way humanity will ever stop fighting among themselves is when an Extra Terrestrial intelligence shows up either to enslave us, enlighten us, or give us a common enemy on which to focus our aggressions. Meanwhile, the worst, I fear, is yet to come. I keep watching the skies in hope...


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 09:43 AM

I repeaT, WAR IS THE ULTIMATE FAILURE.
Damn few wars are about freedom.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 10:36 AM

I don't think it's aggression that drives us to fight wars, most of the time. I doubt if it would have been aggression that would have driven Willie McBride and the others to their deaths, any more than it is for those fighting in Afghanistan. On either side.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 10:58 AM

A fragment of a piece I was working on earlier which in the light of the present discussion I've called Nullius Ager (No Man's Land)...

http://soundcloud.com/sedayne/nulliusager


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 11:02 AM

War is usually about territory or resources.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 11:13 AM

All human life is about territory and resources.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 11:14 AM

Surely Nullius Terra would be No Man's Land, Nullius Ager is No Man's Farm.
John


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 11:25 AM

Blame Google Translate!

I thought Ager was Farm, but then I thought of Kipling's The Land, which is essentially about a farm - and the M R James story A Warning to the Curious which features one Willian Ager. No Man's Land was farmland that became farmland once more; and much of our own farmland is reverting to wilderness - the once fecund corn fields in which I romped in as a child have lain untouched for decades & their once proud hedgerows are all dead.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 11:25 AM

Not really - "fundus" would be a more normal normal Latin word for farm; ager is more "territory" or maybe better "field" - as in battlefield as well as field on a farm.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,anonymous
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 11:38 AM

"War is integral to human nature & culture"

Blandiver, I suggest reading this article by Paul K Chappell, a wonderful speaker and veteran of the Iraq war.
Humans are not naturally violent towards each other.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 12:08 PM

"Terra Nullius" would be the term for territory that belonged to no one in the sense that it was, for example an unoccupied desert island. It was term grotesquely applied by the newcomers to Australia in the 18th century.

The Great War sense of No Man's Land for devastated ground in between two opposing armies is however a different one. I wouldn't think there was anything really analogous in Roman warfare. "Nullius ager", or perhaps "ager nullius" would seem an excellent choice.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Elmore
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 12:57 PM

The tone of this thread has improved a bit since last I looked at. It's much better since I participated in it. My latin is quite rusty, I'm afraid. Later.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Warren Fahey
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 04:33 PM

As Eric Bogle's record label for well over 30 years (we must be the folk industry's longest marriage going from my earlier label, Larrikin, to my current folly, Rouseabout Records)I found this topic irresistible. There's been a long history of parodies of Eric's main songs, especially No Man's Land and Matilda...... one even used Matilda for a song about a racehorse. Did you know REM recorded it and, for a time, were considering releasing it (Eric had already planned on how he'd spend the dosh). EVERYTHING is fair game in songwriting. Bring them on - the good, the bad and the really ugly. It's the process.
PS: I hadn't heard my mate Fintan Vallely's adaption but it's a corker.
PS2. Eric tells me he is working on a new album for 2013 release - rust never sleeps...... ?


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 06:03 PM

I suspect this might be the source of the misunderstanding that gave rise to this thread B.o.B - No Mans Land
..................................

I don't think that rap/hiphop, call it what you may, could be a musical approach that really fits with the meditative mood that underlies Bogle's song, and that is so appropriate to its story. (Not always reflected in the way it gets sung either.) Rap/hiphop is too declamatory. Too like a certain style of preaching, you could say.

Rap/hiphop is essentially one aspect of folk music. It's right to be aware of its strengths. But we shouldn't trap ourselves into seing just one part of the folk spectrum as uniquely significant, whatever part that might be.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 06:46 PM

There's a lot of really chilled understated hip-hop out there. I'd dispute it being 'folk' as such (no more than I'd call any other pop music genre Folk - apart from Folk that is!) though Japan's Dragon Ash certainly weave in some acoustic-folky textures which aid the reflective nature of their joints. Try this for starters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4-2vml9I9E

In translation:

Grass and trees become green, flowers colorfully bloom.
Seasons come by again. A comfortable spring day,
With out anything to do I think by myself
in the tree lined street.
The days go by without any break.
I am struggling to manage myself here.
Sometimes, let's live a life
Without thinking so deeply.
Morning comes, the sun rises again.
Outside the window the south wind
blows the pain in my heart.
Shall the tears I shed in the past days
be pulled into my unconsciousness.
what is important is the light,
I'd like to stay here a bit more.

WE GO EVERY DAY, let's go with laughter
To the direction of the shining light
heading into the open future ahead.
WE GO EVERY DAY, let's go with laughter
Like pouring water into a vase
my wishes please be granted.


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: Elmore
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 07:15 PM

Attn Warren Fahey: Thanks for the information on Eric's new album. I'm really looking forward to it. Perhaps he could include a rap song. He's written several hilarious songs over the years. Also, I wish he'd reconsider his decision to stop touring. After all, Leonard Cohen is 78, and is according to the Portland Oregonian, "at the peak of his career."


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: bradfordian
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 03:52 PM

Ok, found it(not that I've been looking very hard these past 4 years). --It's that time of year now.
Sacrilege or not, it's there, you makes your choice!

From this thread

To be 'spoken' (or 'rapped') un-accompanied in 4/4 time, to the backing of a bodhran...


Well, how's she hangin', young Willie McBride?
Can I stop for a smoke, to take me out of my stride?
And just sit here and chill, and bring the World to a stop,
'Cos I've been ramblin' through the fields, and I'm ready to drop?
So you were only a kid when you went to the war,
Was it your first time abroad, and you didn't know the score?
And at the risk of soundin' morbid, I would like to say
That I hope it happened quick, when you got sent on your way.

Or was it all like a dream, where you got carried aloft
With the drummers at attention, and the pipes blowin' soft?
Was the sun goin' down, did you capture the mood?
As the speeches were read, did it make you feel good?

Now, did you have a babe before you went to the fight?
Did she lie by your side, and give you love every night?
Did she ask you on her knees, to never forget her?
Did she ask you to become a concientious objector?
Or is your picture pasted into an old photograph book,
With no-one knowing why, or when, or where it was took?
Were your intentions pure, was your heart filled with pride?
Was there a smile on your face, was there a gun at your side?

And did they beat? ..... you know the rest.
Did they drape the flag and beret, and the gloves on your chest?
And did they party, to send your soul on its way?
Did they fire the salute as you went into the clay, eh?

Well, I'm sittin' here, Bill, and it's a fabulous day,
The mushies are up, and everything is OK.
There aint no tanks, nor no poisonous gases.
Just lines and lines, and lines of white crosses.
And this cemetery's full of people like you,
That Governments uprooted, and told what to do.
Did they really give a shit about your plans and your dreams?
As your lights went out, did they hear your screams?

Well, how about it man, did the hat go around,
As your mutilated body went into the ground?
Were you banner headlines, were you front page news?
Did the heads of state come and pay their dues?

Well Willie, I'm sorry, I can't figure it out.
Did your next-door neighbours, here, check it all out?
Did they believe all the bullshit and the lies and the crap,
That for once and for all, you'd blow the Hun off the map?
Well, I don't know if you get to see the tube where you are,
But we haven't really come along the road very far.
And all over this planet; Listen to me, Liam
The words are different, but the song is the same.

And did they sing it... did they sing it again?
Do your unborn children ever mention your name?
Are you happy now, or do you feel like a prat?
If you could have it again, would you do it like that?


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Subject: RE: No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version?
From: GUEST,DeanofRochester
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 04:08 AM

Thank you for the lyrics ... the folk process in action .... I think they're really strong .. well done to the writer


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