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BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?

Henry Krinkle 12 Nov 12 - 07:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Nov 12 - 08:35 AM
Jim Dixon 12 Nov 12 - 08:57 AM
Jim Dixon 12 Nov 12 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,999 12 Nov 12 - 09:09 AM
Jim Dixon 12 Nov 12 - 09:11 AM
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Henry Krinkle 12 Nov 12 - 09:54 AM
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Subject: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 07:04 AM

I don't think so.
Not So Honest As You'd Notice

=(:-( o)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 08:35 AM

And your point is.....?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 08:57 AM

I can't read the article. The web site says I have to log in to see it, and I get strange warning messages from my browser when I try to log in, as if the web site may be malicious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:03 AM

Oddly enough, though, when I searched for the article with Google, it led me to this page, which does not require logging in. I think it may be the same article in a different format:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-11/business/ct-perspec-1111-things-20121111_1_lincoln-property-thomas-lincoln-bixby-letter


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:09 AM

It's the same article, Mr Dixon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:11 AM

The article does not even address the question of Lincoln's honesty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:22 AM

Just more childish BS from ShitSlinger Krunkle. Ignore it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:54 AM

He wanted to deport all the negoes to an island off the coast of Haiti. Failing at that, he wanted to turn Massachusetts into a Little Africa. He didn't love them so much after all.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 10:53 AM

I'd hate for facts to get in the way of a good discussion, but y'all might care to read the following link. Take ya two minutes.

http://condor.depaul.edu/tps/Abraham_Lincoln_an_Abolitionist_Lincoln_Quotes_on_Slavery.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:16 AM

I find it amusing that there is a thread 'questioning' the honesty of one of our Presidents!..Shit, this isn't a 'news flash', is it..shit, just look at the guy we got in NOW! Whether you like him or not, you can't say with a straight face or ANY credibility at all, that our Presidents, especially this one, or ANY in recent memory can be seen as 'honest' people...shit..how do you think they got to be President??..by telling the truth????????????????????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:18 AM

Plenty of interesting stuff there, 999. On the one hand, it shows that Lincoln saw through the hypocrisy of a system which declares that "all men are created equal", yet treats some men as slaves.

And on the other hand, that he did see whites as inherently superior to blacks in certain respects (moral? intellectual? etc?)...this probably being an almost universal assumption among whites at the time. God knows, it was an assumption my own European grandparents and my father clearly made without even thinking about the matter! (I know this from certain casual remarks they made or jokes they told now and then.) And that was much more recently than the days of Abe Lincoln.

So...you can cherry pick carefully amongst Lincoln's recorded writings to prove 2 opposing viewpoints... either that:

1. he was a noble man fighting to free the blacks

or

2. he was a prejudiced son of a bitch

Yes, you can do that....provided you are willing to conveniently overlook and ignore vital things like cultural and historical context, just so you can score some kind of abrasive political point that makes YOU feel clever or righteous! ;-D

The "you" I'm referring to in the above is just humanity in general who might do this. Any of us, in other words. I'm not directing it specifically at 999 or Henry or anyone else here...merely cautioning one and all to pay some attention to historical context when it comes to stuff like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:25 AM

GfS - Yeah...the profession of politics seems to demand a certain level of dishonesty, doesn't it? ;-) Perhaps this is because a politician is basically a salesman...on a very large scale. He's constantly trying to sell certain big ideas and proposals to a public who usually just want to be left alone. Thus he has to dress those ideas up in glorious language and make them sound probably a lot better than they actually are.

Then too, he's a fig leaf stuck on an endemically dishonest and money-driven system...so how the hell could he possibly remain honest and still function in that role?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:32 AM

Little Hawk: "GfS - Yeah...the profession of politics seems to demand a certain level of dishonesty, doesn't it? ;-)"

It is a prerequisite on the entry level!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:37 AM

""you can't say with a straight face or ANY credibility at all, that our Presidents, especially this one, or ANY in recent memory can be seen as 'honest' people...shit..how do you think they got to be President??..by telling the truth?""

To a large extent the latest one DID get there by telling the truth, or at least sticking several miles closer to it than his opponent, the wannabe Pres who signally failed, entirely due to being a pathological liar who expected that voters would be stupid enough to believe his lies.

Wipe that egg off your face Goofus, and live with the fact that US voters proved they weren't quite that stupid.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:04 PM

Time will tell. And my family's motto is: Truth Prevails.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:08 PM

DonT: "Wipe that egg off your face Goofus, and live with the fact that US voters proved they weren't quite that stupid."

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."--Abraham Lincoln

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:16 PM

Good quote, but sketchy attribution.
No proof of who actually said it first.
Has been variously credited to Lincoln, PT Barnum, Mark Twain, and several others.

Best quote along these lines is from GW Bush:
"You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on."


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:47 PM

That's right! Those "some of the people" that ya can fool ALL the time ARE the core of any successful insane policy, and ya gotta nurture them constantly and tell 'em exactly what they want to hear. For example:

"Saddam DID have WMDs. He had 'em comin' out the yingyang. The reason we couldn't find any there was...he moved 'em to...ummm...Syria? Yeah, that's it! He moved 'em to Syria! And that's why we gotta take out Bashar al-Assad now!"

"And...Israel IS our greatest friend. And they love peace and brotherhood just like we do. And they never attacked no one that didn't deserve to be "taken out" or just plain exterminated, no siree. And we gotta back 'em all the way in whatever they do to protect OUR freedom!"

"And...all these American and Allied soldiers who die in the foreign wars...what do they die FOR? For our freedom, that's what! Yessir, you would NOT be able to freely go to Walmart and buy Chinese crap no more nor eat at McDonalds and get fat and unhealthy no more if not for all them soldiers heroically dyin' for YOUR freedom in poverty-stricken places halfway acrost the world."

Will everyone believe stuff like that? No! But some people will believe it...cos some people will believe absolutely anything their leaders tell them. It is those some people who are the lynchpin of any successful government policy that insults the average intelligence and violates common moral precepts...and those some people have gotta be catered to constantly, faithfully, and without shame!

Ya got that figgered out and yer on yer way to home base, politically speakin'.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:53 PM

Apparently the Czech Republic appropriated my family's motto.
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:55 PM

TIA: "Has been variously credited to Lincoln, PT Barnum, Mark Twain, and several others."

A President, a storyteller, and a circus owner...hmm, ya' think there is a common thread here?
Good post, TIA,..Lincoln is the oldest of all those, but you are correct in regards to who actually said it first. Lincoln is generally credited for the expression...that is if you believe the historians, who occasionally re-write history....to fool some one!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:59 PM

Bob Dylan said it too, paraphrased it...(grin)...and then he would make some additional quip like, "T.S. Elliot said that".


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:18 PM

Here ya go, LH.

Talkin' World War III Blues, last verse:

Well, now time passed and now it seems
Everybody's having them dreams.
Everybody sees themselves walkin' around with no one else.
Half of the people can be part right all of the time,
Some of the people can be all right part of the time,
But all of the people can't be all right all of the time.
I think Abraham Lincoln said that.
"I'll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours."
I said that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:25 PM

Yeah. ;-) In the original recording, he said "Abraham Lincoln". In live shows he said all kinds of other hilarious stuff, depending on the show. One time it might be T.S. Elliot. Another time it might be Allen Ginsberg or Cassius Clay or some other famous name of the time...

I always really enjoyed Bob's quirky sense of humour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:42 PM

He beat the family mare to make her work harder. What a bastard. I'm glad he got kicked the head. And it's no wonder. I'd kick him in the head too.
Bastard


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: CET
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:44 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle - PM
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:54 AM

He wanted to deport all the negoes to an island off the coast of Haiti. Failing at that, he wanted to turn Massachusetts into a Little Africa. He didn't love them so much after all.
=(:-( ))"

And do you have a point lurking in there somewhere? Do you seriously think that this is a significant historical breakthrough? Anybody who has studied Civil War history knows that Lincoln didn't think that blacks were equal to whites, and that he was prepared to live with slavery as long it didn't spread to the western territories. That he thought emigration to Africa might be a solution to the race problem is no news at all. Where's the dishonesty? He's still the greatest President to my mind. He could see further than any other politician of his time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:54 PM

He was a murderer and war criminal in my mind. Somebody should have shot him for what he ordered Sherman to do to Georgia.
=(:-( 0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:58 PM

And he commited genocide against the aboriginal peoples.
=(:-( 0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:05 PM

Abraham Lincoln, the man who said 'Yes!' to the largest mass hanging in America...of Native Americans, of course..

Here is the most moving film of those who decided to pay Respect to their Ancestors, and to recognize that wrong was done on both sides, but they wanted to step up and make their apologies...

Personally, I think the Native Americans are the ones who deserve the apology, for had they not been starving and told to 'eat grass' by the good ol' whiteman, then what followed would *never* have happened...

I make no apology whatsoever if this film makes you cry, for they have shed so many more tears than all of us put together...

Way past time The World had the guts to face up, BIGTIME, to the horrors that happened back then..and for Obama to stop pussyfooting around and make a PROPER APOLOGY to the very People he promised to help when he was first elected.

'DAKOTA 38'


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:19 PM

Thank you Lizzie. Dishonest Abe gets off the hook too often for his genocidal mania.
=(:-( o)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:20 PM

Well, well, well!

We've got a COUPLE of people pissing in the punchbowl!

Nothing better to do with their lives, I guess.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:24 PM

Would you care to explain your remark, Don?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:28 PM

He was to the Native Americans as Hitler was to the Jews.
=(:-( 0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:28 PM

Lincoln was a politician of his time. At first he didn't believe that black people were the equal of white. The Missouri Compromise was about keeping the slave state if the state would be a member of the Union.

Lincoln probably changed quite a bit in office, maybe not honoring equality, but at least alleviating the suffering and the continuance of slavery.

However, the American Civil War was fought over the issue of slavery despite the "Confederate" deniers. State's rights had to do with slavery, primarily.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:33 PM

Imagine any world leader hanging 38 men at one time.
Disgusting.
=(:-( o)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 03:46 PM

Imagine someone cutting a baby out of a pregnant woman and nailing it to a tree.

What our Native Brothers endured was horrific, but the ACCUSED actions of some (yes, I KNOW, nobody can prove the sickening "accounts" of the murder, rape and torture) had to be dealt with. Tell me if I understand why the hangings took place... over 800 non-military settlers were killed? The hangings were the miniumum Lincoln could do to avoid whites seeking revenge after the natives were "defeated". Had none of the natives been punished for the accused "crimes" against the settlers, far more would have died.

I know many will think that my questions are "disgusting" but I attempt to understand what white settlers were actually doing. They were surviving by developing land and hunting and fishing. That land, it's resources and the way of life it provided to the natives was taken from the natives by the whites... by the barrel of a gun. Right or wrong at this point is moot to me because the shitty end of the stick is still being stuck into our Native Brothers and THAT is what I find truly disgusting.

In other words, it's been done the whole world over for centuries. Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 03:51 PM

Just research the Massacre at Sand Creek. Those Indians were peaceful and friendly.
=(:-( O)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 03:58 PM

What has Sand Creek got to do with the hangings?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 04:01 PM

During the Sand Creek massacre, Black Kettle called for his people to wrap themselves in a giant US flag that had been given to him by Lincoln. They were shot and bayonetted right through the flag...while (to add a musical aside) the military band played "Garry Owen".

Still, Chivington seems more to blame (directly at least) than Lincoln.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 04:07 PM

They commited so many atrocities that day. And Abe was the Commander in Chief.
I hold him just as responsible.
=(:-( 0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 04:13 PM

I WOULD ask again, what does Sand Creek have to do with the hangings?

Are we to discuss ALL of the atrocities that happened in the world over written history? How do such discussions relate to the questions I ask?

But, never mind. I know nobody will discuss them and no good will ever come from my asking any more.

gnightgnu


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 04:19 PM

We are discussing Lincoln's character. And I think he was murderous.
=(:-( 0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 04:30 PM

STOOPUD!!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 05:01 PM

Yes Don. You are rather stupid. But you're just a victim of organized propaganda instilled in you by public education.
I pity the fool.
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 05:58 PM

Perhaps, had Lincoln been the man so many think him to be, he might have had the guts to explain that when you watch your People starting to starve to death, something inside you 'snaps', especially when you've watched other horrific atrocities happening to them too, coupled with being told to eat grass by an inhumane human, making that combination lethal.

(please see film link above)..and images of the 38 hanged men ended up on an ornate tin of a brewery company(?!!?)(see link below)

Also, some of the bodies were dug up, very shortly after death and used for medical research by William Mayo, amongst others...

Below you can read what these 'civilized' people did to those they considered to be 'savages'

Taken from here:Wiki - The Dakota War of 1862


>>>Execution

One of the 39 condemned prisoners was granted a reprieve.[13]:252-259[17] The Army executed the 38 remaining prisoners by hanging on December 26, 1862, in Mankato, Minnesota. It remains the largest mass execution in American history.
Drawing of the 1862 mass hanging in Mankato, Minnesota.
Wa-kan-o-zhan-zhan (Medicine Bottle)

The mass execution was performed publicly on a single scaffold platform. After regimental surgeons pronounced the prisoners dead, they were buried en masse in a trench in the sand of the riverbank. Before they were buried, an unknown person nicknamed "Dr. Sheardown" possibly removed some of the prisoners' skin.[18] Small boxes purportedly containing the skin later were sold in Mankato.

At least two Sioux leaders, Little Six and Medicine Bottle, escaped to Canada. They were captured, drugged and returned to the United States. They were hanged at Fort Snelling in 1865.[19]
Medical aftermath

Because of high demand for cadavers for anatomical study, several doctors wanted to obtain the bodies after the execution. The grave was reopened in the night and the bodies were distributed among the doctors, a practice common in the era. The doctor who received the body of Mahpiya Okinajin (He Who Stands in Clouds), also known as "Cut Nose", was William Worrall Mayo.

Mayo brought the body of Mahpiya Okinajin to Le Sueur, Minnesota, where he dissected it in the presence of medical colleagues.[20]:77-78 Afterward, he had the skeleton cleaned, dried and varnished. Mayo kept it in an iron kettle in his home office. His sons received their first lessons in osteology from this skeleton[20]:167 In the late 20th century, the identifiable remains of Mahpiya Okinajin and other Native Americans were returned by the Mayo Clinic to a Dakota tribe for reburial per the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act.[21][full citation needed]
Internment

The remaining convicted Indians stayed in prison that winter. The following spring they were transferred to Camp McClellan in Davenport, Iowa,[22] where they were held in prison for almost four years. By the time of their release, one third of the prisoners had died of disease. The survivors were sent with their families to Nebraska. Their families had already been expelled from Minnesota.
Pike Island internment
Dakota internment camp, Fort Snelling, winter 1862
Little Crow's wife and two children at Fort Snelling prison compound, 1864

During this time, more than 1600 Dakota women, children and old men were held in an internment camp on Pike Island, near Fort Snelling, Minnesota. Living conditions and sanitation were poor, and infectious disease struck the camp, killing more than three hundred.[23] In April 1863 the U.S. Congress abolished the reservation, declared all previous treaties with the Dakota null and void, and undertook proceedings to expel the Dakota people entirely from Minnesota. To this end, a bounty of $25 per scalp was placed on any Dakota found free within the boundaries of the state.[citation needed] The only exception to this legislation applied to 208 Mdewakanton, who remained neutral or assisted white settlers in the conflict.

In May 1863 Dakota survivors were forced aboard steamboats and relocated to the Crow Creek Reservation, in the southeastern Dakota Territory, a place stricken by drought at the time. Many of the survivors of Crow Creek moved three years later to the Niobrara Reservation in Nebraska...>>>

Standard Brewing Company 'commemorative'(?)tin of Mankato Hangings


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 06:14 PM

The story of Native Americans in the USA is just one long saga of atrocity, theft, and betrayal. For a very complete account, read Dee Brown's book "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee". Similar accounts could be written regarding the bloody American occupation of the Phillipines following the Spanish-American War, and it doesn't end there. It's always been about enlarging empire, gaining resources, land, and money...not about any recognizable moral code.

But.....gnu - Your point is also a valid one. Native American war parties committed many terrible (and some almost unbelievable) atrocities against white civilians and white military and civilian prisoners during various conflicts between the Natives and the Whites...and this naturally led to violent retaliation by the Whites when they captured or defeated Natives.

There were many atrocities committed on both sides. Both sides were naturally outraged by these acts, and they both responded, often, with further dreadful atrocities.

It's about time we all did our best to forgive this terrible past, accept that it happened, and resolve that our shared future will NOT repeat it...or inflict the guilt and anger of it upon someone else in some other place entirely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 07:04 PM

None of that stuff in the articles is news to me. You can find it in several sources. I notice that it does not mention Lincoln's military service, or that his suspension of habeas corpus was constitutional (Article I, Section 9: "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.").


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 08:52 PM

So, Hinkle, you think getting a good education merely fills one's mind with evil propaganda? Well, that's convenient excuse for not bothering to summon up the energy and ambition to try to learn anything.

You remind me of the person who, after displaying an immense level of ignorance, was asked, "Are you really that ignorant or are you just apathetic?" responded, "I don't know and I don't care!"

If everyone thought like you, the human race would still be living in caves and drooling a lot.

You might try explaining your views on education to a young woman named Malala Yousufzai.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 10:41 PM

Lizzie Cornish 1: "Would you care to explain your remark, Don?"

He's thirsty.

gfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:55 PM

Yep. He just laps it up.
=(:-( P)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 01:07 AM

Its very easy to judge people in different and difficult historical contests.

Wars - Indian Wars, Civil Wars, International wars - are surprisingly violent affairs. Its only the lucky leaders like Thatcher that come out of them smelling of roses.

Apparently another mass hanging that we were all pretty gung ho about was when we hanged all the Japanese war criminals after WW2. Some of them apparently on the grounds that one Japanese name was pretty much like any other Japanese name.

Really the native Indians hangings were dwarfed in culpability compared to how many people the English hanged in Kenya at the time of of the Mau Mau uprising.

Perhaps I'm looking at it in a naively quantitative way. For cold blooded murder - how can you beat Henry VIII cutting the heads off two women he had slept with - can't understand that.

To the victims and their families, every murder is particular and stems from the worst part of human soul.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 01:38 AM

Pissing in the punch bowl is an analogy for one of the ways that non-entities attempt to garner attention for themselves at a social gathering. Uncivilized behavior, but it does draw attention to themselves.

Which is what you guys are obviusly after. Not content to discuss things rationally (or not having the intelligence to do so), you feel you need to name-call and insult. Are you sure that being regarded as an idiot and a boor is the kind of attention you really want?

Grow up.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 01:41 AM

"--obviously--"

Before Hinkle tries to correct my spelling.

If he even noticed.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 04:15 AM

I noticed, sweetcheeks.
Abraham Lincoln was an imperialist land grabbing genocidal maniac who, in typical Republican style, gussied his crimes against humanity up with lies about freedom and liberty. Not much difference between him and Criminal Junior Bush.
=(:-( P)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 05:54 AM

I can't think of anyone less like Bush.

What surely marks out Lincoln is his idealism - his belief in the importance of the Union - despite all the pressure on him, from every quarter of the establishment to take a more flexible view.

Compare and contrast to the man who led his party into its long term dalliance with what John McCain called 'the dark side of American populism'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 06:08 AM

Just two observations:

1. Asserting that someone was or wasn't "X" or was or wasn't "Y", over and over again, without a comprehensive range of citations, is fairly pointless. You have a point of view - others have a different point of view. So what? Result? Endless arguments in Mudcat style with no conclusion being agreed or even reached.

2. From our modern, 21st century viewpoint, thousands of people in history committed crimes and atrocities as bad as, and probably far worse than Lincoln - and did them from their standpoint and with motives they probably considered quite valid We don't consider them valid now, of course, and rightly so - but what's the big deal with Lincoln?

I should add that, personally, I don't give a rat's ass for Lincoln or any other President or Prime Minister.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 06:42 AM

Endless arguments entertain endlessly.


Lincoln is presented to us from birth as some kind of Messiah.

But it's all so hypocritical.


=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 07:11 AM

Lincoln is presented to us from birth as some kind of Messiah.

Ah... so was the Messiah - but you don't have to believe it. Surely a rational view of Lincoln would be that, like other people who had a hand in the course of history, he was a mixture of what we consider good and evil? No-one's perfect - the only question is whether you think what you consider the good outweighs what you consider to be the evil. Or vice versa.

Or you could speculate: what would America have been like without Lincoln - or Roosevelt - or Washington - or Taft - or whoever? Consider the alternative to each or any of these and ponder the consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 07:23 AM

There again, Henry - put it into its historical context.

Both Lincoln and Robert Louis Stevenson had wives (widows) who consciously worked on the after death reputation of their deceased husbands and tried to work up up a Christ like cult around them.

seems to have been a 19th century thing.

One man left us with Treasure Island and Kidnapped and poems, and stoies and legends like Doctor Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Lincoln left us with an America without slavery.

There have been less productive lives, less deserving of agrandisement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 07:38 AM

Like George Washington and that stupid cherry tree.
Hogwash and balderdash!
=(:-( P)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 08:54 AM

Ah, right...got you now, Don...

What you mean is that no-one is permitted, in this thread, to mention 'the other side of Lincoln'

Silly me.
Didn't realize...
You carry on then and convince everyone he was a truly wonderful man and the fact he presided, in his presidency, over the biggest mass hanging in America, to this day, should remain unspoken of, un-written of, un-thought of.

Of course, it's what many of those in control of America have been hiding for way too long..and the amount of peopleelsewhere, FROM America, who have told me they had NO IDEA of much of the horrors wrought against The Native Americans, nor of the Covert Genocide which goes on TO THIS DAY has fair taken my breath away....

And whilst the TRUE history IS now getting out, much of it due to the Internet and the fact that many Native Americans are 'out there' telling their side of the story, this Holocaust against the Native Americans still remains belittled and forgotten about in the minds of most people.

And if any of you bother to WATCH the film I linked to, above 'Dakota 38' you will see and hear the Native Americans who made this long trek, against fearsome weather, talking about reconcilliation, apologizing for their ancestors part in it, whilst also understanding how they were driven to implode as they did.

You will also find them singing and dancing up on Mount Rushmore, as The White Men call it, The Six Grandfathers, as they prefer it to be known, again calling for reconcilliation.....

Strangely, I don't hear too many White Folks calling for the same thing, organizing *their* concerts to try to bring Peace and Friendship, Understand and Love, to a place where there has been much Hatred and Torture...

We have much to learn from The Native Americans...and it's a great shame that Lincoln did not use this terrible massacre to try to bring reconciliation himself, telling his people of the brutality of some of their own who chose to let the Native Americans starve to death, then cracked their 'let them eat grass' jokes about it....

Geez, Marie Antoinette brought on the French Revolution with her similar remark...

You stand by and watch people starve, whilst feeding yourselves? then do NOT be surprised if those people, whomsoever they may be, rise up and slay those whom they regard...and quite rightly so...as being Beyond Evil....

Brule - Reconciliation of Cultures Concert - The Six Grandfathers/Mount Rushmore


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 09:41 AM

Hear! Hear! You tell him!!!!! Good job, Lizzie!
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 10:19 AM

Are ya off your meds again, Lizzie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 11:38 AM

Yo, Greg! DEFENESTRATE ME! (I can take it.)

- Chongo

;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 01:57 PM

If Lincoln isn't worthy of admiration, who is?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 02:12 PM

"If Lincoln isn't worthy of admiration, who is?"


Patch Adams (and all who now work with him)
David Attenborough
Chief Raoni
Leonard Peltier
Floyd Redcrow Westerman
Russell Means
William Wilberforce
Dennis Banks
Jane Goodall
Polly Higgins
The Suffragettes

...to name but a very few......


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 02:17 PM

Yes indeed. That man delivered the Gettyburg Address, without so much as a zip code.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 02:31 PM

Lincoln was a product of his time, as are we all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 03:01 PM

No, Lizzie, you don't get me at all.

Several people here have pointed out that Lincoln, Jefferson, and a number of other historical figures, many of whom are considered icons, were only human, and as such, had their flaws. Yet—they are icons because of the good they accomplished. In Lincoln's case, initiating amd overseeing the events that led to the end of slavery and the slave trade in this country.

I believe that the vast majority of African-Americans feel that he left the world far better than he found it.

And it is both historically inaccurate and mean-spirited to blanketly condemn these historical icons as evil because, being human, they had their flaws and may have done some other things that, today—and in retrospect—we may regard as reprehensible.

As you have undoubtedly noticed, there are a couple of people bouncing from thread to thread on Mudcat recently who do not add anything of value to serious discussions, but do everything they can to disrupt them by resorting to extreme statements and hurling personal insults, hoping to end any serious discussion of issues and turn the thread into a mud-slinging contest.

You are a person who is obviously concerned with important issues. For this, I respect you. If I have any objection to some of the things you say, it's your tendency, as I mentioned once before, of assigning collective guilt to whole groups of people, often for things they are not involved in and were not even aware were happening.

You would do a bit better if, instead of attacking people for not being concerned with an issue, you focus on alerting them to the issue, and lay off the gratuitous accusations.

Just a touch of friendly advice from someone who, for the most part, agrees with what you are trying to do.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Arkie
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 03:28 PM

When public figures of former times are judged by the standards of our own times we are generally certain to see many shortcomings. When we judge the standards of the common folk of former times we are also likely to find even more shortcomings. Imagine what the people 50 or 100 years in the future will say about us. I suspect that there will be noted acts of unbelievable bravery; acts of great compassion; and a record of incomprehensible hatred, prejudice, and unthinkable criticism. We can rant as much as we like about public figures and politicians, but what is the saddest part of the whole thing is that they are trying to find a common thread with the voter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 03:40 PM

If I had to qualify Lincoln's truthfullmess I would have to say He was expediciously honest.

He used personal humor which is one of the most powerful honesty tools in the world with great success.


He was psychologicly honest. One answers with kindness when ones wife asks if her butt looks too big in this dress.

He knew himself at the cost of much distress which allowed him to be honest with himself and speak honestly to kindred spirits who had the same feelings of loss and thankfullness that moved in his own heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 03:40 PM

By the way- in 1862 Abe may have been just a bit preoccupied with a little problem called The Civil War.

This from someone who was atthe 1972 Sun Dance at Crow Dog's Paradise and at Wounded Knee in 73 on the side of the Native Americans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 06:10 PM

Greg, I met both Henry and Leonard back in 1967(?) at the Newport Folk Festival. This is indeed a small world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 06:22 PM

You follow me around like a puppy dog, Mr. Firth. Yapping and growling and never contributing anything but insults. You throw stones, yet you live in a glass house.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 06:52 PM

Small world indeed, Bruce. Hoka Hey.

I just wonder sometimes if we progress at all as a species or are condemned to repeat, Sisiphus-like, mistakes, absurdities, stupidities & atrocities ad infinitum.

The human species - or "The Goddamned Human Race" as our friend Sam Clemens referred to it - may simply not be susceptible of improvement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 07:21 PM

If Hitler had conquered Europe he would be heralded for bringing order and civilisation to it. The winner writes the history. Abraham Lincoln was responsible for so much needless death.

And while this thread is about his honesty, let's discuss his secret, closet homosexuality. Not a very honest thing to be.
You did know about his gay lover? That military officer?
=(:-( o)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 07:26 PM

Here we go:

Sexy Abe


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 08:51 PM

And let me remind you, Mr. Firth. I started this thread. You were never invited to contribute. You crashed this party. Just like you did to my Classical Guitar Strings? thread. You can't stay away from me. Some kind of schoolgirl crush, I think.
=(:-( I)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 09:09 PM

Yo, Stinkle: blow me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Joe_F
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 09:16 PM

You do not have to love Negroes or believe that they are equal to whites in all respects to believe that they are equal in human rights and that slavery is an evil institution worth getting rid of even at great expense. Those are separate issues. Lincoln was perfectly clear on that, and so was Harriet Beecher Stowe, and so was Thomas Jefferson.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 09:51 PM

I'm not in favor of slavery. I'm opposed to war. I'm opposed to crimes against humanity. Lincoln was another rich bastard that sent the poor bastards off to die. And he had them shot if they wouldn't. Unless you paid him off. Pig.
=(:-( P)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 09:59 PM

Yo, Greg! Suck ripe durians!

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 11:26 PM

"And let me remind you, Mr. Firth. I started this thread. You were never invited to contribute."

The only threads that are by invitation only are some specifically designated to be so. Usually the invitation is more of a request to stay on topic and avoid argument. Those threads are in a few places on Mudcat. Usually that means music threads, threads specific to certain artists to inform others where they will be playing. They usually have first sought and received the OK from management to have such a thread--perma threads are an example--and study threads to do with areas of song history or song provenance are another.

BS ain't one of those places. Going into BS is like going into a bar. One enters to have a beer and shoot the breeze. Sometimes one has the beer and stays or leaves, has the beer and shoots the breeze, has the beer and gets shot. Mr Firth has the same rights you do with regard to comments or views anywhere on Mudcat. The difference at present seems to be that Don has the respect of most if not all people here. Don't mean everyone always agrees with him, but it does mean he is treated with respect from the get-go even if there is disagreement. I have had more than a few arguments with him, but never to the point of denigrating his character or worth. He's one of a dozen or so folks here I admire very much and would turn to were I seeking advice about darned near anything. He's a good man.

I've been fortunate to have had some very pleasant exchanges with you, too. I look forward to more. Take that for what it's worth.

As for Abraham Lincoln: he reminds me of Sir John A Macdonald, Canada's (IMO) greatest Prime Minister. Were it not for Sir John A we would not have a country, such as it is. Sir John A drank too much, wheeled and dealed, threw up in our House of Commons and sent the North West Mounted Police out looking for Louis Riel while a few days later giving Riel the money to get out of the country because the political heat of Riel being caught would have divided us as a nation. Sir John A forced through the Canadian Pacific Railway so as to unite this place in name and in deed. Macdonald's personal life was tragic, but without him we'd be so far split among ourselves we'd today be easy pickings for conglomerates and multi-nationals. (I notice that the spell check underlines Macdonald's name, but when I capitalize the first 'd' it doesn't. The spell check is wrong. Sir John A Macdonald is spelled with two lower case d's.) I corrected the New York Times Almanac on that many years back by saying that MacDonald with reference to Sir John A was as shocking to me as Abraham Linkoln would be to an American. I trust they have amended the Almanac.

Anyway, I've rambled on enough. Have a good evening, Henry.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 11:37 PM

I think that the intelligent people who inhabit these threads can tell who contributes what and who it is who tries to disrupt the discussions. And who flings the insults in response to others' serious contributions.

Keep it up, Hinkle. You're just digging yourself in deeper.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, any thread you start here is not YOUR thread. By the very nature of Mudcat, anyone can post to it. Get with the program!


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 01:23 AM

By the way, Krinkle, as far as my "crashing" "your" Classic Guitar Strings? thread, I happened to have some valuable information about classic strings due to my long experience with using various brands and tensions, and YOU DID ask! If you didn't find it helpful, then there are others here who might.

Here's a truth you'd better learn to accept:--   this web site is not all about YOU!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 04:01 AM

I'm related to the Macdonald Clan of Scotland. My father and grandfather's middle name was Macdonald. You can thank me. I was kidding about my Classical Guitar Strings? thread. Glad for the info.
I still think Lincoln was a despot.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 04:45 AM

So, would the apparent saint-like Lincoln have approved of America finally having a Black President?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 05:23 AM

I don't think so. I think his blood would be boiling.
=(:-( o)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 05:46 AM

But he might be ok with gay marriage.
=(:-( °)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 12:35 PM

Slavery was not introduced to the Americas by Europeans.

People shouldn't cherry-pick history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 03:34 PM

So, would the apparent saint-like Lincoln have approved of America finally having a Black President?

Yes, Lizzie, he would. Try reading Frederick Douglass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 04:08 PM

I disagree. Wholeheartedly.
=(:-( P)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Arkie
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 04:10 PM

Been said before. Say it again. There was nothing in the linked article to suggest that President Lincoln was not honest. He was a politician. He got elected. But compared to the most recent candidate from his party??? I grew up in the south and Mr. Lincoln was not revered when I was a budding young scholar. As I have grown and hopefully matured and gained a broader world view, I now have much respect for Honest Abe and believe as do many others that his death was a tragedy for the south and for the country as a whole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 05:24 PM

I would like to hear the Native American point of view. Did he treat them honestly? Or did they not matter?
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 05:59 PM

I'm not a big Lincoln fan... And I don't think he was all that honest either...

The fact that the Emancipation Proclamation applied only to the Confederate states doesn't seem all that honest...

As for the Civil War (which it wasn't) it can be argued that had Lincoln just sent Jefferson Davis a "good luck to ya'll" letter rather than resupply Sumpter then the war would have been avoided and in MO the South would have ended slavery before the turn of the century and saved one heck of a lot of suffering that continues to this very day...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:11 PM

Most people mistakenly believe that the Emancipation Proclamation ended slavery in Amerika. We had slavery in Kentucky all the way through the War of Northern Aggression. It was outlawed when the Constitution outlawed it. After the war.
=(:-( 0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:21 PM

I disagree. Wholeheartedly.

Who gives a shit, Krunkle?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:26 PM

You do, sweetcheeks.
You do. *smoochies*!
=(:-( x)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:30 PM

The fact that the Emancipation Proclamation applied only to the Confederate states doesn't seem all that honest

ah, but you see, Bobert, slavery was already outlawed in all of the Union States, in case you hadn't noticed.

it can be argued that had Lincoln just sent Jefferson Davis a "good luck to ya'll" letter rather than resupply Sumpter then the war would have been avoided

So you think that the President of the United States should have just looked the other way & forgotten that the U.S. was attacked? That's the textbook definition of treason, Bud.

the South would have ended slavery before the turn of the century

Oh, right - after they were willing to destroy the Union & militarily attack the United States in order to preserve slavery.

I guess you've never looked into the actual history of Reconstrucrion - not the "Birth of A Nation" myth - and what was actually perpetrated on Black folks following the withdrawl of Federal troops in 1877: SLAVERY in anything but name, until the Civil Rights movemnt of the 1960's.

C'mon, Bobert- I think you're way too intelligent to toe the Neo-Confederate line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:41 PM

Slavery wasn't outlawed until 1865.
Free Slaves!


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:45 PM

December of 1865. Know it all.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:45 PM

Krunkle: blow me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:48 PM

Greg. Your mum would be disappointed in you. Mind your manners.
Do your homework.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:50 PM

"Mum"!?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:51 PM

Hey, gang, I have a great idea!

When we get through re-hashing the Civil War (or the War for Southern Secession, if you insist), let's take a long look at the Peloponnesian Wars.

Was Alcibiades unfairly sacked by the Athenians for losing a sea battle to the Spartans? After all, it wasn't incompetence, it was really a storm that swamp so many Athenian triremes, giving the advantage to the Spartans.

Demosthenes outmaneuvered the Spartans in the Battle of Pylos in 425 BC and trapped a group of Spartan soldiers, holding them under siege for weeks in order starve them out. Many of the Spartans died of starvation rather than surrender. Should Demosthenes be tried for war crimes?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:55 PM

No. The Spanish American War is next.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 07:09 PM

Yeah, there was another bogus war...

(But, Boberdz, how about the sinking of the Maine???)

Yeah, how's ya'll like that Gulf of Tonkin episode... How's that turn out???

As for Lincoln???

Given the war, the reconstruction (occupation) and a century of Jim Crow, he blew it...

The entire civilized world was one country at a time abolishing slavery starting in the 1830s... Slavery was on its way out... I don't believe it can be argued otherwise... The cost of the war wasn't worth the price, IMHO...

B~
t


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 07:24 PM

He was responsible for so much needless death. They have to build him all up into some holy man. A smokescreen. He was a killer.
=(:-( O)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 07:27 PM

Call a sheep a dog, but that won't make it bark.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 08:02 PM

The entire civilized world was one country at a time abolishing slavery starting in the 1830s

Except for the US, Bobert. Do review the South Carolina Nullifiers, the Missouri Compromise debates, the annexation of Texas, Calhoun's record & speeches, the whole Kansas-Nebraska business ----- you're ignoring a half century of run-up to the Civil War. Also, the whole history of the re-enslavement of the Black population post-1877.

As I said previously, I thought you were too smart to be taken in by neo-confederate apologist bullshit.

Guess I was wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 08:30 PM

No, Greg.... Using phraseology such as you have to try to box me into a tidy cubbyhole ain't honest or accurate...

I grew up in a Southern family... My mom got involved in the civil rights movement in 1963 and I wasn't too far behind her...We each were arrested in civil rights demonstrations... After I graduated college I worked in the Richmond City Jail as a GED teacher... My students were mostly black... I worked in a residential drug rehab program in the inner city... Most of our residents were black... I then worked as a social worker in Richmond where most of my clients were black...

I have a degree in History and Poli-Sci... I didn't come to my position on the Civil War easily... It's not a "slam dunk"... I have spent much of my life wondering how things would have turned out if ___________ had or hadn't happened... I grew up in Virginia... I know the battles and the battlefields... I see the hundreds of "historical markers" where Americans killed other Americans... I've been to Antietam and Gettysburg...

No, I don't come to my position from any "neo-confederate apologist bullshit" and I find that assertion as appalling as it is knee-jerk reactionary"...

I am sorry, Greg, but whatever respect I have held for you and your values has taken a major hit...

Serious business on my end...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 10:47 PM

Lincoln saying yes to the hangings of 38 Indians was pared down by him from the original 309 that the whites wanted to hang. And the hangings were in response to an uprising in which the Indians did, in fact, kill innocent people.

As for Lincoln's statements of repatriating blacks to Africa and what not means nothing. He was president and had to entertain various solutions or give lip service to them to quiet his opponents. As president he also had to give as much to everybody as he could without giving too much to one group which fosters resentment. If he failed to give more to blacks than he could have, he had to consider the repercussions of pissing off whites who would no doubt take to the streets and beat and kill any blacks they encountered--man, woman or child--in retaliation, as happened in New York after he instituted the draft. How desperate do you think he was to cause that to happen again and again? After 1863, Lincoln gave up any pretense of sending freed slaves anywhere demonstrating that he never seriously considered it as an option. He considered it only as long as it was something he had to consider.

He was criticized for the Emancipation Proclamation because it did not free the slaves immediately but his critics missed the point that upon the end of the war, it prevented slavery from making a comeback in those areas that the Proclamation targeted. He knew by '63 that he was going to win the war and he wanted to make sure that something went immediately into effect if and when it happened and whether he was alive or dead when it did.

Maybe his biggest sin was imprisoning Southerners who lived just north of the Mason-Dixon line without trial or due process. He suspended the Writ of Habeus Corpus as well as States' rights. It's easy to condemn him for that. But suppose you were president then and it was up to you to decide whether or not those northern Southerners with family down south could be trusted and you absolutely HAD to win that war. What would you have done? There is likely not one of you reading this who would have acted any different than he did. You would have cleared those Southerners out of there. And suspending states' rights is what enabled Lincoln to win the war. Jefferson Davis tried to but couldn't do it and he stated that when he heard that Lincoln had done it, he knew the South had already lost the war.

Lincoln was a very intelligent man. He knew what he had to do to win that war and he did it. He couldn't worry about how history would judge him. And since most Americans consider him the greatest of the Presidents (and I agree with that), he did pretty well for posterity and you can be reasonably certain that wouldn't have happened had he lost the war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 11:09 PM

He had another option... The nation was young then... he could have just said to Jeff Davis, "Knock yourselves out... Come visit, Jeff, when ya' have some time"... Why was it so important to keep these southern states in the United States???

Jus' let them go...

Like I have said, "slavery was on it's way out"... Why impose its demise... Just let it die a slow death and let it be Southerers who figured it out???

Jim Crow wasn't all about black people... It was as much about northern people...

The defeat of the South still haunts the entire nation... Look at the electoral map...

Lyndon Johnson missed by several generations...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: meself
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 11:36 PM

Maybe in 1860 it wasn't as clear that slavery 'was on the way out' ... ?

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if the world had lain down and let Hitler take over - would we all be speaking German and Seig-Heiling today, or would the Nazi empire have collapsed under its own weight after a couple of decades, with, ultimately, less horror and bloodshed than WWII engendered?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 01:38 AM

Bobert: "Lyndon Johnson missed by several generations..."

Lyndon 'Gulf of Ton-kin' Johnson was, is, and will go down forever in history, as a piece of shit! His fucked up policies of Vietnam, screwed up this country to the point that it has never recovered.
Sorry Bobert, I know you get wet dreams about him and his phony civil rights bullshit, that he blocked in the Eisenhower Administration, but that two-faced, corrupt piece of crap will ALWAYS be a piece of crap for all eternity!...No matter how much you object!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 02:46 AM

Lyndon Johnson knew his war was a flop.
Abe was off in la-la land.
They both should have been shot.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 04:09 AM

It was all about land. Coastlines. Rivers. Resources. The Federal Government went on a greedy campaign of land acquisition. And killed anybody in its way.
Dress it up anyway you like. How much did the government care about those slaves after the war?
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:50 AM

OK, Bobert-

Let's try this.

Would you care to prove your assertion that in 1861 "Slavery was on its way out" In light of the points I raised in the posy of 14 Nov 12 - 06:30 PM?

If "Slavery was on its way out" in the U.S. in the 1830's why was the South willing to go to war in Mexico to extend it in the 1840's and in Kansas/Nebraska in the 1850's and go to war to perpetuate it in the 1860's?

How, exactly, could Lincoln as president have "just let them go" and fulfilled his oath as president to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."?

"Wondering how things would have turned out if _____ had or hadn't happened..." can be an interesting exercise, but it ain't history, Bobert - its fortune-telling.

Can you explain "Jim Crow wasn't all about black people... It was as much about northern people...". Is this a lead-in to the old "carpetbagger" myth??

The "defeat of the South" doesn't still haunt the entire nation; what haunts the nation is the legacy of slavery and white supremacy.

Bobert, when you (and I for that matter) were in grade school & college, they were still pushing the "States Rights" shibboleth and "The Birth of a Nation" and "Gone With The Wind" and "the Klan was a sociial club" & etc. as "history".

A great deal of scholarship since then has elaborated on and explained those times in much greater detail and with much more evidence, accuarcy and understanding.

Just curious - Have you continued to study these issues AFTER college? Have you read any of Eric Foner's works - the essays in "Our Lincoln", or "Reconstruction", or "Freedom's Lawmakers" or the more recent "Forever Free"?

What about Blackmon's "Slavery by Another Name"? Or Dray's "At the Hands of Persons Unknown? Or Gellman's "Jim Crow New York"? Or Berlin's "Many Thousands Gone"? Or Horowitz's "Confederates in the Attic"?

I did NOT say that you DERIVED your information from Neo-Confederate propaganda, but that points you bring up mimic Neo-Confederate dogma - which they do.

As for "whatever respect I have held for you and your values has taken a major hit..." all I can say is right back at ya, Buddy! Me too.

Best,

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 09:26 AM

Gobbledy gook.
=(:-( P)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 09:37 AM

There is no way to ever prove that something would or would not have happened if _____________ had occurred or not occurred, Greg...

That line of debate/discussion is like when we told Saddam to prove he didn't have WMDs...

Secondly, I never asserted that slavery was out in the US... The statement I made was that many other countries around the world had abolished it with that movement beginning in the 1830s... You can Google up for yourself the list...

The point is that by 1860 there was an international abolitionist movement...

Third, with the exception of 20 years living in Jefferson Co., West Virginia, which BTW is very much like the Deep South, I have lived in the South and educated in the South and understand Southern culture...

Southerners hatred of the federal government can be traced to two events: the Civil (which it wasn't) War and just as important, Reconstruction... This hatred has been passed down from generation to generation using "states rights" as its sword and shield...

It's much like the hatred of the New Deal by Republicans... One generation passes it down to the next without any real thought using "socialism" or "communism" as it's sword and shield...

Forth, Jim Crow wasn't strictly about black people... Black people became the face of all the hatreds from the war and reconstruction, which BTW lasted over a decade until a deal was struck to end it in 1876 after the Hayes/Tilden Election... You can Google that up for details, as well...

So there was one shit load of hate by white Southerners passed down against black people and the federal government which, unfortunately still exists today... Might of fact, the New South haters, have developed their own somewhat politically correct codified racism... The Republican Party loves to use "welfare"... That plays on their decades old PR of the "Welfare Cadillac" mother that they have carefully implanted in the haters mind....

Lastly, yes... We did grow up in a racist South but not all of us stayed racists... It took work to change... Hard work... Lots of work and more work and then more work... My dad struggled with racism... My mother did the hard work and she worked on me... The dinner table in our house was a war zone and my brother and I having to listen to that "hard work" go on night after night...

My dad, bless his heart, worked the hardest... He grew up calling all black people, "niggers"... He made no bones about it... So the 60s was very hard on him and my mom beat him like a drum... But he would go bail her out when she would get arrested... Only guy in the court room with a suit and tie and completely surround by black people... Yes, it was hard work... Then in '65 a young black kid came to live with us... Joe was a recent Job Corps graduate and it was supposed to be for just a week or two... It ended up a couple years until one tragic night Joe was killed in an auto accident... My dad cried like a baby...

I said that I did not come to my feelings about the war of Lincoln easily... That is true... Those feelings came as a result of a lot of learning and hard work on my part...

I know it isn't a popular view, especially outside of the South, but there are many of us Southerners who have arrived at this position from a much different route than the folks you think of, Greg... I much different route, indeed and for us it isn't a way of justifying our hate of anyone... Just our hate of decisions that were made that left so many crippled in hate...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 09:38 AM

Krinkle writes: "If Hitler had conquered Europe...".

That may well have come to pass had not Lincoln held the union together.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 09:53 AM

No. Hitler would have failed anyway. He was cracked.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 10:11 AM

Thanks for the background, Bobert - interesting. I'd also be interested in your answers to the other questions I posed to you at 15 Nov 12 - 08:50 AM.

Perhaps your "view" isn't a popular one because it embraces most of the mythology of "The Lost Cause" and - possibly understandably considering your background- stresses emotion rather than fact.

Much like the supposed works of "history" by the self-admitted non-historian and novelist Shelby Foote.

I'm no Lincoln apologist - he was hardly a saint. But saints have always been pretty thin on the ground.

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 10:24 AM

Just another quick thought, Bobert:

RE:Just our hate of decisions that were made that left so many crippled in hate...

What about the decisions made by Calhoun and the entire pro-slavery lobby in Congress over a period of 30 years, the decisions made by the politicians of the Southern States to secede, the decisions they made to attack the United States, the decisions they made to execute Black Union soldiers instead of taking them prisoner, the decisions they made to attempt to nullify the 13th, 14th, and 15th Ammendments & on & on & on.

Do you hate those decisions as well?

You can't dump the whole mess on Lincoln, ya know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 10:39 AM

Lincoln was a stink.
=(:-( P)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Arkie
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 10:39 AM

From what I have read, Lincoln's plan for reconstruction was much more about reconciliation that the plan that was followed by the controlling faction of Republicans after his death. That plan had little in the way of reconciliation. Lincoln considered himself as president of the nation which included the south. Having read some eyewitness accounts by southern soldiers of the surrender at Appomatox, the procedure was conducted with dignity and respect and, here I am assuming, met with the approval of Lincoln if not directed by him. Reconstruction was a horror and conducted with malice and if we are not still paying the price, we still see the effects. There are historians who believe that Lincoln would have done things differently. At this point we will never know for certain.

As for slavery being on its last legs, there was a concerted effort among southern slaveholders to push slave holding into new territory and the slave holders were the most powerful element in southern society. I am still amazed at how people will follow the elite possessing wealth and influence with their tails dragging behind them even when it does not serve their own best interest. But even the non-slaveholders in the south were accustomed to an economy based upon the plantation and driven by slave labor. I do think that eventually slave holding would have diminished and faded, but it may well have taken three or four more decades or more and there would have bitter opposition to its ending even then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 10:55 AM

;No. Hitler would have failed anyway. He was cracked.'

No dispespect Henry, but I don't think if you'd grown up in England or one of the Nazi occupied countries - I don't think you would have seen victory as an inevitable.

It was a damn close run thing. A victory only purchased by the blood of our parents and their friends. Incredibly traumatic for them. In the 1950's when I was a kid - we played in bombsites - places that had been peoples homes = they were our playgrounds.


He may look crazy in retrospect - but a lot of people thought Hitler had some good ideas - not just Germans either. He was pretty credible at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 11:27 AM

Yea. The Bush family were sympathizers I understand. Nazi sympathizers.
=(:-( 0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: meself
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 11:31 AM

A lot of people - sadly and bizarrely - still seem to think Hitler had some good ideas ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 11:57 AM

I think our government appropriated alot of ideas from them.
=(:-( 0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 12:09 PM

"Some of the primary and more famous Americans and companies that were involved with the fascist regimes of Europe are: William Randolph Hearst, Joseph Kennedy (JFK's father), Charles Lindbergh, John Rockefeller, Andrew Mellon (head of Alcoa, banker, and Secretary of Treasury), DuPont, General Motors, Standard Oil (now Exxon), Ford, ITT, Allen Dulles (later head of the CIA), Prescott Bush, National City Bank, and General Electric."

from

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/war/american_supporters_of_the_europ.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 12:20 PM

Lincoln was a stink.
Not one one-thousandth the stink of a Krink.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 12:27 PM

You love it. You can't stay away.
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 12:39 PM

He was a lawyer. That makes him a professional liar.
As in: How can you tell if a lawyer is lying? His lips are moving.
=(:-( I)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 01:00 PM

No dispespect Henry,

Can't imagine why not!


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 01:29 PM

Bitch.
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 04:59 PM

Greg,

I, in no way, have any love for the pre-war Southern Democrat'd behavior... The entire period was a slobber-knocker... The election of 1860 was a slobber knocker... I find it interesting that the Constitutional Union Party carried the three states that would see more battles combined (not deaths) than any other three state combination...

As for continuing to study the Civil War??? No, I don't do books that much anymore... I do independent research on the inter net... There is a lot of stuff there where you get more perspectives without havonmg to wade thru books... I will, however, read articles by writers which tend to put forth their hypothesis without all the wading... The wading in tiresome...

I was very fortunate to take both semesters of "History of the South" under Dr. Rogers as an under-grad who at the time was the dean of the history department at VCU...

BTW, the position that I hold on the war isn't at all popular in most Southern academic communities... It seems to be more the birthers and tin-foilers and die-hard rednecks who wouldn't like my alternate view of hos things could could have worked out better for everyone...

Might of fact, there are very few of us that hold this position based on knowledge of history and the Southern culture... But there are others... Just not that many that I know... But the ones I know I respect for arriving to the same conclusions based on their knowledge as opposed to their emotions...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 05:08 PM

Hey, Bobert-

Do yourself a favor ( and I mean this kindly - not as a taunt or condemnation ) and read at least the books that I mentioned above.

Internet research on the Civil War? Please. That's the bailiwick of crazies. Try the real historians. I think you'd actually appreciate what they have to say. Books is where the real info is - not in cyberspace.

But I still can't figure out how you can blame Abe for things that happened from the point following his death & and for the succeeding 50+ years.

Be well-

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 05:24 PM

Between you two guys, you probably know more about the Civil War than any other people on this site. Y'oughta talk about it instead of fight with each other. Since I'm friends with both of you, that would be good to read. IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 05:37 PM

Sorry, Greg... I'm too lexdexic for books... I do better with shorter articles... If you have a sound understanding of history you can do just fine on the inter net and not be snowed... I can smell a snow-job in the first 3 paragraphs...

The nice thing about taking "History of the South" in college is that Dr. Rogers was so good that all ya' had to do was just sit there and listen to the guy and take yer time thru the books... BTW, the first semester ended with the 1860 election... Kinda left ya' hanging over Xmas holiday...

BTW, Part B... Dr. Rogers might not agree with my position but if he were still alive (which he isn't) he would respectfully listen to it... Kinda wished to have had an opportunity to talk with him about it...

And, brucie, I ain't fightin'...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 05:52 PM

No fightin' here either, Bruce- but if Mr. Bobert won't even LOOK at the more recent scholarship, I'm kinda dead in the water, no?

Guess its the old "agree to disagree" one more time with feeling.... but I sill wish ol' Bobert would update himself. I really do think he'd enjoy the read!!

Be well, the two of ya!!

Best,

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 07:19 PM

Lexdexics learn differently... Maybe you can find a book on it...lol... Very interesting stuff and very real...

More recent scholarship ain't the issue... Lotta people spend 400 pages tryin' to say what can be said in 2500 words... I read lots of 2500 word summaries, articles, book reviews and they are "recent" and current and all that "new millennium" stuff...

BTW, I have no fascination with the war itself... The P-Vine, however, is all over it and so I know more about it than I ever wanted to know from her compulsion... She must have a hundred books on it... Okay, I thought that the Union messed up in the 6 Days Battle south of Richmond... Especially the battle where the Confederates took a bunch of old boats and lit them on fire in the middle of the James River and then fired down on Union boats... That was as retarded a battle plan as any...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,McWilliams
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 07:21 PM

Re: "Abraham Lincoln, the man who said 'Yes!' to the largest mass hanging in America...of Native Americans, of course.."

I'm no hero worshipper of Lincoln (see Doris Kearns Goodwin, Team of Rivals), but every time I look at a $20 US bill, I see the evil bastard, Andrew Jackson. Two generations ahead of Lincoln, hero of the War of 1812, he presided over the Trail of Tears, responsible for the near-total annihilation of tribes of the eastern US. The ones who cooperated were the "civilized tribes." The rest were "savages," whom settlers, army, priests, and others "cleansed" using smallpox infected blankets, diseases for which they had no immunity, considered not fully human, not to mention the "lead poison" pumped into them across the country as the Monroe Doctrine spread west.

Andrew Jackson was a despicable human being. That he was such a hero is testimony to the collective gullibility of a blood-thirsty, uneducated populace.

In my home county in Alabama, Limestone, we like to remember how Nathan Bedford Forrest blew up the train trestles between Nashville, the frontier capitol at the time, and Atlanta. For several weeks, the Union army could not send ahead the food and ammunition Sherman would need to continue his march to the sea.

I live in Indiana now. Eli Lilly, founder of the largest employer here, commanded the battalions of white and black Union solders, trapped inside their own block houses and stockades on each bank of Sulphur Creek. I can't help myself -- even though I see the outcome of The War and the end of slavery as the superior outcome -- I can't resist a chuckle when I realize the chemist had to rebuild the trestles again again because of the brilliant guerrilla leader, spending a fortune while making no forward progress.

Tragic, the insanity of that war remains in the consciousness of white Southerners in such detail -- I think due to the story-telling history of the tragic Scots-Irish settlers of our county. My forebears on both sides were Scots and Irish, some were starving peasants, some displaced aristocrats, all proud, and many owned slaves. Sure, the oppressed became oppressors. Taking all of that history seriously will bring humility if you're lucky and you don't forget.

Abraham Lincoln is the hero because once he did see the light, he did not back away from liberation, and tried to reason with those who would have the South not just vanquished, but utterly destroyed. Would the South have suffered in Reconstruction so quickly, deeply, and for so long (even now?) if Abe had survived? The spineless bastards who followed him could not lead the country in a noble direction.

But of all the Presidents, the one whose memory should never die for its cruelty and avarice, aside from the future Truman murders, is Andrew Jackson. May his memory live forever in infamy.

McWilliams


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:35 PM

More recent scholarship ain't the issue

Actually, it is. And the way it can elucidate what the actual situation was.

And there lies the problem, Bobert.

If you're not willing to explore & expand your knowledge, and grow ( as Lincoln did ) then there's nothing I can do.

C'est fini.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:48 PM

"In my home county in Alabama, Limestone, we like to remember how Nathan Bedford Forrest blew up the train trestles between Nashville, the frontier capitol at the time, and Atlanta. For several weeks, the Union army could not send ahead the food and ammunition Sherman would need to continue his march to the sea."

'Get 'em skeered and keep the skeer on 'em.'

Great post, McWilliams. It's funny how our views change over time, but that some views get even clearer as we see more. The histories taught in schools don't mention what you wrote, but it's true. And then when we look at Forrest more closely we get a serious disappointment once again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:54 PM

Thinks about it this way, Greg...

Take yourself back to 1860... You are Lincoln... But you are Lincoln also seeing the next 100 years of Jim Crow... You are Lincoln seeing Reconstruction... You are seeing Lincoln watch the current South resegregating... You are seeing the Republican Party of today using racism to rile up it's base... You are Lincoln seeing the KKK murder civil rights protesters in the streets in 1979 in Greensboro, NC and get away with it... You are Lincoln seeing immense poverty within the black community today...

This ain't about an academics or scholars... You are Lincoln seeing these things in 1860...

You make the call...

B`


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 09:03 PM

Oh, and not to mention the 600,000+ deaths in the war and coming down to the closest thing to a civil war some 150 years later...

Okay, Abe... Make the call...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 09:11 PM

Bobert, trying to see just how you mean the last two posts; do you mean to imply that, if he had been really wise or principled, Lincoln could have anticipated enough of all that to make different decisions?
If so, it would seem like you would be demanding the wisdom of God of the man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 09:34 PM

Lincoln took the bait, f-prince... Lincoln made a decision to push the South in re-supplying Sumpter... Lincoln knew the consequences... Lincoln picked war...

No, Lincoln couldn't know the consequences of that decision...

My point is simple: if Lincoln knew how things were going to turn out would he have gone forward???

Seems that most folks say, "Yeah, it wads the right thing to do"...

I disagree...

Beginning in 1792 with Denmark abolishing slavery up until Wallacha abolishing it in 1856 just about every country you can name abolished slavery... Slavery was on its way out even here in the South...

My point is that rather than making Lincoln some hero for leading us into the war, the reconstruction, Jim Crow and where we find ourselves today I'd rather have had Lincoln tell Jeff Davis, "Have a nice day"...

This is heresy, I know...

It is what I have come to believe... I'm not a war worshiper... Nor am I a Lincoln worshiper... I think he blew it and I don't understand all this worship...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 10:07 PM

The end of slavery started when the first person who owned a slave thought it was wrong. That goes back thousands of years. Today, we are seeing a new kind of slavery emerge: that of the rich owning the poor. The faces of the players change, but the institution remains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 10:15 PM

Yes, brucie... We now have an entire new slave class... 'Cept these days a lot of our slaves have college degrees...

Different story but you are 100% correct...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 11:45 PM

Big Al Whittle: "No. Hitler would have failed anyway. He was cracked..."

"...It was a damn close run thing. A victory only purchased by the blood of our parents and their friends. Incredibly traumatic for them..."

"He may look crazy in retrospect - but a lot of people thought Hitler had some good ideas - not just Germans either. He was pretty credible at the time."



I think it would be safe to say that Hitler's Germany was defeated, but fascism survived.

..something I noticed as a kid....the country that defeats another country in war becomes just like the enemy they defeated.

...but then, I'm from 'Sanity-Land'

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:14 AM

If bobette says Lincoln sucked, Lincoln sucked.
No brag. Just fact.
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:48 AM

With love (and kindness).


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:25 AM

What I hereby suggest is that you two bros--both being from below the MD line--ease up. OK?

Here in the north, we herniate when good people argue. We carry on anyway, but get real bitchy after the herniation. Capiche?

Get back to the corners and let your trainers toss it in. No one ever wins in a serious fight. Someone loses less, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:40 AM

Andrew Jackson. Now there's a real stampeder.
=(:-( o)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:01 AM

Please, if you didn't watch this earlier when I posted it, please, please take around 1 hour and 30minutes to watch....


At hour and 18 minutes in you will hear the Mayor of Mankota making his wonderful and deeply moving speech.

Imagine if Lincoln had said what this dear man says, just imagine...

Dakota 38 - Youtube

I am well aware that Lincoln brought the numbers of those to be hanged, down. He still went ahead with it though. Most of those hanged were thought to be innocent. The whole incident happened ONLY because the Native Americans were being starved...and instead of lambasting The Bastards who did this, who *caused* this tragedy to happen, he went along with them and on Boxing Day, hanged 38 men, who joined together in song as they died...

MANY innocent people lost their lives during this time, but never did ANY American President have the GUTS to stand up and say "Shit! WHAT are we doing to these loving and innocent people whose land we have invaded, whose way of life we are tearing apart, who history we are trying to wipe out! Holey SHITE but WHAT has happened to us, as White People????"

And I cannot even begin to imagine how EVERY Native American must feel every time they have to use the dollar bill with Jackson's face on it.

I'm sorry, but the way the Native Americans have been treated and are STILL being treated, to this day, is shocking and deeply appalling.

Most people talk about Black Americans with total ease and great knowledge of what happened to their people, but the majority don't give shite about the Native Americans to this day. It's why they, as a People, are still drinking themselves senseless, feeling, in the main, so utterly lost and deeply hopeless.

It's why Russell Means NEVER stopped fighting for them all to the end of his days and why tears would fall from his eyes in an instant when he spoke of how he saw the Grandpas and their grandchildren rooting through trash cans trying to find food at times...

I do not romanticise them as a People, for there are good and bad everywhere, but I have the greatest respect and the deepest sorrow for the Native American People, for I feel very much that so many of them are pushed aside, out of sight, out of mind...and they will remain so, purely because they ARE the Original People of this land now called 'America' and to this day that still brings fear, resentment and a feeling of great discomfort to many Americans. Many other Americans know shit-all about the Indigenous People of their country, nor do they want to, for they regard it as *their* country now and the Native Americans, in their eyes, should have 'got over it' decades back..


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:54 AM

I agree with you., Lizzie. Well said.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:53 AM

I made a mistake with the timing on the video above.

The Mayor of Mankota starts his moving speech just over I hour and 7 minutes in....

Apologies..


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 09:24 AM

Nice video, brucie...

Not to fear, dude... Greg and I are okay... We ain't Siamese twins, thou and come to some things from different perspectives... Hey, that's what makes below-the-line, ahhhhh, below-the-line...

We both on the same page on just how messed up the South is but, hey, as messed up as it is it's gotta-a-lotta, too...

One of the really messed up things going down now is succession movements by all the washrag, crybaby Republicans... So, like their Southern Democrats in 1860, they want out??? Fine with me... The DoD funds 94 - count 'um - military bases in red states... Red states get back $1.25 for every $1.00 they pay in federal taxes... Hey, if the majority of Texans vote to succeed then I say, "Don't let the door hit ya' on the way out and we're taking those 15 bases out, all the Social Security, Medicare, highway funds and every dime that we're now giving ya'... Oh, BTW, good luck with the 2nd Mexican War 'cause we ain't coming to save yer asses... Bye-d-bye"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 09:37 AM

I hope Georgia secedes. I don't want to fund the DoD.
It's part of the problem.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 10:13 AM

Now, Bobert, you're either being disingenuous or just plain silly.

RE: post of 15 Nov 12 - 08:54 PM

1. Thinks about it this way, Greg...

I CAN'T think about it "that way" Bobert, nor should you or any rational being - because Lincoln didn't have a crystal ball and didn't know the future. In 1861 he dodn't "know" what was going to happen in 1862, never mind 1877 or 1963. Nor can he be held responsible for "causing" things after he was dead- especially 150 years after he was dead.

2.Slavery was on its way out even here in the South...[in 1861]

I asked you to substantiate this claim before, & you didn't even try; here's another chance.

Since chattel slavery as practiced in the U.S. was unique among the slave societies of the world, what makes you think things "would" have developed in the U.S. the way they did in the rest of the world. That and the fact that world-wide demand for cotton & other slave-produced commodities from the U.S.was on the increase? What is the evidence that slavery was "on the way out" in the U.S. in 1860?

3. Lincoln made a decision to push the South in re-supplying Sumpter... Lincoln knew the consequences... Lincoln picked war

This is one of the silliest contentions of the "Lost Cause" myth. Mean, nasty, unscrupulous, tricky Abe conned them poor, dumb, ignorant, Southern bumpkins and forced the South to war.

C'mon! Take a look -a real look - at the history of the U.S from the Missouri Compromise up to 1860. Read the speeches of the Southern senators & congressmen. Read the editorials in the Charleston "Mercury" and the Richmond "Examiner" & etc. Read the several Ordinances of Secession.

If you need identify a single individual who "picked war" try either Edmund Ruffin or Colonel James Chesnut, Jr, or Lieutenant Henry S. Farley.

4. You also never answered how Lincoln could tell Jeff Davis, "Have a nice day"... and uphold his presidental oath & preserve & defend the Union.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, Bobert- I'm really curious about your positions on these.

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 10:56 AM

Yo, Greg...

First, my hypothesis is that the USA and CSA would either reunite down the road or, more likely be allies today, as the USA and Canada are... That is not an unreasonable...

You asking me to prove hypothetical outcomes is academically lazy on your part... No one can... Yes, it is always easier to debate real history than to take yourself back and "imagine" different outcomes...

I can imagine a much more civilized outcome than what we have endured...

Second, you can Google up "abolition movement" as well as I can and see for yourself that the slavery was on its way out even down here in Dixieland... Beginning in the late 1700s countries were outlawing slavery and list isn't short... Google it...

Again, with the international abolitionist movement I think anyone would hard pressed to argue (and prove) that the South would still have slavery today had the CSA been allowed to go...

Third, yeah, we agree... There were a lot of Southern firebrands just like there are today... BTW, I have read a lot of old newspapers from that day... When I was in college there was a library at the "Daughters of the Confederacy" in Richmond where you could read the real newspapers, not microfish... I spent many hours reading those papers... Not much has changed from some of the stuff we hear and read today from tin-foil nation...

In April of 1861 Lincoln had choices... One was to honor a Constitution that Thomas Jefferson even warned us might need to be revisited from time to time and resupply Ft. Sumpter after shots were fired by cadets at the Citadel at a boat carrying troops and supplies or...

...withdraw troops from Sumpter...

He had those choices... He picked the first having to know that a major show of force in the Charleston Harbor would be provocative... Seems that's how most wars get started...

Ya' know, there are Civil War "round-tables" everywhere where people discuss strategies, tactics, troop movements, generals, etc...

Anyone can do that...

What a lot of folks can't do, however, is go back and find where a decision here or there could cause so much damage... Voltaire, as well as others, said that "those who don't know history tend to repeat it"... Part of being a historian is not debating strategies and tactics but the bigger "What if's"...

After seeing just how much damage has been inflicted on our nation by this war and just how it never really has ended (see electoral map) I'm sticking with my conclusion/hypothesis that it was a terrible mistake that could have been avoided had either side wanted to avoid it...

I do not hold Southerner blameless... Yes, they acted poorly but...

..takes two to tango...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 11:31 AM

Bobert-

I now see we've been and are talking at cross purposes.

You're talking could have, might have, maybe would have, speculation and imagination.

I'm talking what actually did happen, what actually led up to what happened, what actually resulted from what happened, and historical reality.

Historians don't imagine the "what iffs" except as an entertaiment or mental exercise. That ain't real - that's speculation or amateur fortune -telling, and deterministic fortune telling at that.

Anything, absolutely ANYTHING "might have been". But that ain't reality.

With 20/20 hindsight its easy - and disingenuous - to condemn an historical individual's actions based on what they did not know or COULD not know at the time they were alive.

Ya' know, there are Civil War "round-tables" everywhere where people discuss strategies, tactics, troop movements, generals, etc...Anyone can do that... Your point being? I haven't done that, nor would I care to. Irrelevant.

You did not answer the "slavery on the way out" question. You did not answer the Lincoln oath of office question.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." is George Santayana, and he was talking about historical reality, not myth, fantasy and imagination. I suspect that Voltaire would feel the same.

So I will bow out. Anytime you'd like to continue this as a discussion of reality, be glad to do so. Feel free to continue discussing fantasy with others who may choose to do so.

Be well, amigo.

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 11:58 AM

Stinkin' Lincoln.
=(:-( P)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:08 PM

Most of those hanged were thought to be innocent.

THOUGHT by who, Lizzie? Do you have any evidence to present here that they WERE innocent?

the way the Native Americans have been treated and are STILL being treated, to this day, is shocking and deeply appalling.

No argument.

But get off your high horse. I KNEW Russell Means.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:19 PM

Greg, ol' buddy...

There is no answer to the "slavery was on it's way out" question any more than Saddam being able to prove he didn't have WMDs... That is a trick question... People make choices all the time on probabilities, trends and patterns...

I mean, I could ask you the same question in reverse... It would go something like this: Would the South ended slavery without the war??? And please provide your evidence...

See??? I think we can logically get beyond that question... I believe the South would have... Maybe you don't...

Same with the oath... It was no secret the Southern states wanted out of the Union... The firebrands had been ranting for years... Might of fact the entire concept of "federalism" had never been sufficiently agreed upon in spite of the the 1803 decision in Murbury v. Madison...

Lincoln could have met with Jefferson Davis and proposed a constitutional amendment releasing the Southern States... That would have bought him some time... Think of it more as a divorce where even though one party didn't initiate it accepts it for what it is...

Oaths can be tricky... Google Grover Norquist... I mean, 625,000 men wouldn't have died had Lincoln been more creative...

Lastly, you seem to think that because I do not agree with you that I am not dealing with "reality"... You know better than that, Greg... I am dealing very much with reality... The reality is that the unCivil War didn't ***have*** to happen... The reality is that it did... The reality is that in many ways there is a low grade civil war that has never ended... The reality is that I am neither a Southern Apologist nor a Lincoln Worshiper... I am a historian that just doesn't buy the mythology that this war was gonna happen no matter what...

I offer no apologies for slavery, for radical Southern firebrands, for Radical Republican firebrands, for Lincoln, for Davis... My interest in history is that it offers lessons... Gosh, if we learned nothin' from 625,000 men killed then that disrespects each and every one of them...

Now, I'm going to do what I wished Lincoln had done and leave this alone...

We've been too good of friends, Greg, for me to take it any further... My mamma might have been a pistol in her day but she also taught me grace...

Peace...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:19 PM

Let's discuss Zachary Taylor. He's buried out behind my dad's house. Was he poisoned?
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:35 PM

Lincoln could have met with Jefferson Davis and proposed a constitutional amendment releasing the Southern States..

Not and maintain the Union & Constitution he was sworn to uphold, protect & defend.

Lincoln COULD also have contacted the inhabitants of the planet Tralfamadore and asked them to mediate the situation. ;>)

This time. I'm REALLY outa here.

All best,

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Grey
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:33 PM

I think not. The Tralfamadorians have always wisely refrained from taking sides in quarrels between Earthlings, so I think they would have been unwilling to mediate in that conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:37 PM

I didn't say they would have agreed, I said Abe could have asked!

;>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Grey
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:43 PM

True. He certainly could have. But it would have been in vain. Still, I suppose it might have led to further fruitful cultural exchange and possibly trade.

In retrospect, it is perhaps regrettable that he did not.

As you are clearly a stickler for logic, however, may I point out an inconsistency in your own communications. You said "This time. I'm REALLY outa here." But then you returned! This does not compute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:48 PM

Well, if you knew Russell Means, I sure as hell hope you're out there defending him from the Bastards who, even as he was dying, were busy filling the internet with the nastiest things they could think of to write about him...And of course, the day he died, well, they had a party!

So, get off YOUR fucking High Horse, Greg and don't you DARE patronize me, for I've come into contact with MANY Native Americans these past years, who have ALL treated me with kindness and respect, other than the ones who trawl around slagging off Russell and Leonard, for they see me as one of their biggest enemies these days, even writing their sick little blogs about me....

Do NOT come the Big I Am with me, for it doesn't work, not one bloody iota!!!

And if you want to find out who says that some of them were innocent, then why don't you talk to some of the folks you allegedly knew....

Now, feck off and back off....
Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:49 PM

Lizzie, get help. Please. You're gonna hurt yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:52 PM

True, Artixes the Grey, I lied. Or mis-spoke. Or some such.

I'm afraid its just another example the human condition. Can't trust any of us, wch is why the Tralfamadorians justifiably keep us at arms length.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Grey
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 03:19 PM

Well put, Greg. Indeed, it is Federation policy to limit contacts with Earthlings to the bare minimum required in order to gather useful scientific information and observe changing conditions on your planet. Any contact at all is considered somewhat dangerous, particularly where your governments are concerned, but we feel it is nevertheless justified for both scientific and altruistic reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:23 PM

>>>Lizzie, get help. Please. You're gonna hurt yourself.<<<

Thanks for the concern, but really, I'm OK. Unlike others I'm not suffering from Pretentious Prat Syndrome. However, I have heard that if one is suffering from it, applying a turnip to the inner regions of the nether regions is said to be quite beneficial.

Try it and see, Greg...
And,please, do let me know how it goes...

:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Grey
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:37 PM

Ah! Another interesting bit of information about Earth culture.

"applying a turnip to the inner regions of the nether regions is said to be quite beneficial"

Fascinating! Turnips are already listed amongst our catalog of edible Earth plant products, but I had not heard previously about their therapeutic use for illnesses of the nether regions. Pretentious Prat Syndrome sounds like a painful and possibly very serious ailment.

Making note to self: must have medical lab team look into this as soon as possible and secure suitable Earth subjects for experimentation and in order to find a reliable cure for PPS. Where to look? That is the question. Perhaps in the area of Earth called the UK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:45 PM

Ah, Lizzie The Great, I prostrate myself before your magnificence and especial omniscience - forgive me for questioning the knowledge and erudition of the all-knowing and all-seeing entity that is Lizzie Cornish about all things Native American ( altho from a continent 3000+ miles away and with no direct experience of the things she prates on about )- Lizzie, the chosen one and Representative on Earth of The Great Spitit, Wakan Tanka, Quetzalcoatl, The Husk-Faces and False Faces, the Old People and all the other spirits of The Four Directions.

And no, you are most definately NOT "OK", if the drivel you post is indicative.

Get help.

Soon.

For your own good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Great
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:17 PM

Is this a death match by sarcasm? They used to have those on the planet Gnaxos, but they discontinued the custom as it was creating so much social friction and hatred. No one has died by sarcasm on Naxos in 500 years of their calendar...about 813 of your Earth years. It was said to be a particularly horrible way to die..."death by a thousand tiny cuts"...and it sometimes even proved fatal to both combatants...rather like dueling with poisoned blades.

We would consider it a barbarous practice. Death matches by sarcasm are simply not permitted any longer in the Federation. A lofty sneer is punishable by being placed in solitary for approximately 3 earth days. A snide remark results in further solitary confinement. Rude gestures to indicate contempt result in being cut to half-rations. Lowering the apparel to expose the nether regions from behind as a sign of deep disrespect results in being tossed into a pit of angry Nyhobbers (small, fierce animals similar to your "shrew").

Yes, there are some things which simply cannot be tolerated, even in the Federation where we practice tolerance as far as we are able.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:20 PM

Please, be sure to make it a VERY LARGE Turnip, Greg...

And hey, maybe you'd like to help raise some money for Pe'Sla...they've got $1.5MILLION to raise by the end of this month...

It would be SO much better than you sitting there pontificating...You'll find a link to the site on the Support Chief Raoni FB page...at the top, left handside....

Have a good evening....
And hey, make yourself a date with Looking Back Woman, methinks the two of you would make the perfect couple...

And yes, Russell Means *will* be chuckling over that remark, I can assure you..


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:21 PM

Artixes...if ONLY Mudcat had 'like' buttons, you'd be getting your button pushed by me, for sure. ;0) 20/10 for your posts! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:23 PM

Not a death match at all Artixes - just a free exchange of ideas.

However, I will admit that it violates W.S. Gilbert's maxim: "That he who'd make his fellow creatures wise, must always gild the philosophic pill."

Ta.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:34 PM

This should do....nice and fresh too


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:37 PM

Ah, Lizzie, you wouldn't know Russel Means if he bit you on the ass.

Have a good, self-important evening yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:48 PM

Actually, I would...John Trudell too....and a whole lotta others...

Enjoy the turnip..

And as I said, if you want to continue to help The Lakota, now that Russell is no longer here to fight for them, then help them save Pe'Sla, because if they lose that too it will be yet another part of their Heart gone..

They need many more to fight for them and with them now that Russell has moved on....so stop wasting your time arguing with me...and realize that Russell Means would have actually enjoyed talking with me, (as I would have with him) because he'd have known how deeply I respect his People...and how intolerant of Turnip Trotters I am, same as he was...for one of the many things I loved about Russell Means is that he did not suffer fools gladly and he said exactly what he thought, becoming ragingly angry about the injustice towards his People. He was a good man, who knew he had faults and had done wrong things in the past but had the guts to admit to them, but he never, ever stopped fighting.

There will be several more ceremonies for Russell next year..I suggest you find out about them and attend..and hopefully, a little bit of Russell will float down on to you from above...and improve your Communication Skills no end.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 06:10 PM

Ah yes, Lizzie, that from the self-appointed, Wašicun spokeswoman for the Lakota - who are perfectly able to speak for themselves without your patronizing "Adopt-the-Native Americans As Pets" help.

One of the fools that Russell would not have suffered is YOU!.

Good night.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 08:00 PM

Of course he was honest - if he were dishonest, he would have had one of those false beards like they had in that Gettysburg film.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 01:41 AM

A turnip a day
Keeps Greg happy.
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 05:08 AM

Keeps him on his toes, too!
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 06:29 AM

>>>Ah yes, Lizzie, that from the self-appointed, Wašicun spokeswoman for the Lakota - who are perfectly able to speak for themselves without your patronizing "Adopt-the-Native Americans As Pets" help.

One of the fools that Russell would not have suffered is YOU!.<<<


Actually, he would have. Why? Because I'm as steamingly angry as Russell is over how Native Americans are *still* being treated to this day.

WHERE did you get your deeply insulting and highly patronizing 'Adopt-A-Native' idea from? Sure as hell ain't from me..

I'm merely around to open the eyes of those who want them opened that Genocide against Indigenous People still carries on to this day, albeit in a more covert way, such as the alcohol stores on the borders of Pine Ridge, at White Clay, the children taken from their families to be fostered out in white foster homes, despite there being many Native foster homes willing and wanting to take the children in until their parents can be helped...The highest suicide rate in the world, the highest levels of diabetes, shortest life-expectancy in America etc...etc..etc..

When the Lakota tried desperately to shut down those evil drink stores in White Clay, protesting peacefully, linking their arms via tubes and lying down in the road, trying so hard to get the world to wake up and see what is happening, do you know what happened? The police arrived, pepper-sprayed many, including a 10 year old boy, then they got a CATTLE truck and put the protestors in there, still linked arm in arm via tubes, loaded them in a long line, standing up, like cattle, then drove them off...probably breaking every safety rule in the process!

I don't want anyone to 'adopt-a-native' as you so crudely put it! Nor do I 'fantasize' about Native American men, as someone once said to me, thus being whizzed off my FB page faster than he could ever imagine.

I KNOW what it's like to lose a child! I KNOW just a little, some of the pain those Mothers felt when their children were taken from them, the years of pain that followed them the rest of their lives!

I am sickened by the New Agers who want to be Native American, taking their Spirituality and 'selling it' to those who want to 'join in the fun'..This is NOT FUN!

It is about fecking RESPECT!!!!!!

It is about GAP being made to withdraw their 'Manifest Destiny' T Shirt, whilst being shot up the bum by people such as me who phoned them up and gave them hell, reducing the woman at the other end almost to tears once she had FINALLY understood the HORRORS that brought to the Native Americans, how it is STILL in use today as well! She had NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER of the People her company had insulted SO Deeply!!   Neither did the fecking Designer who thought it was a bit of a hoot, adding deep insult to injury with trashy comments he put on his Twitter page afterwards, ONLY withdrawing them and apologising when he realized he could damage his fecking career!

It's about No Doubt withdrawing their feckingly insulting video, as they did the other day...having to be bloody well TOLD in the first place! And it's about Victoria's Fecking Secret also apologizing for having their models canoodling down the catwalk with Indian Headresses draped over their knickers!!

It's about a People who have had ENOUGH and who are finally standing together to say it out LOUD!

It is why I do ALL I can to HELP them in any way possible, be it in getting the name of Pe'Sla out there, getting many to donate, as happened earlier, in August, when so many great people from my Support Chief Raoni page shared the 'Last Real Indians' Pe'Sla campaign out around the world!

It is why some Native Americans ask me to be on various pages...

It is why I speak out and stand up for AIM, against Denise Maloney Pictou and the terrible damage she is so intent on inflicting on people who cannot answer her back! It is why I stand up to the bullying group she has aligned herself to, including fecking Paul Demain and his FBI buddies, the Trimbachs and Ed Woods of this world!

So, get OFF my back, Greg. YOU started this with your highly insulting remark!

I can fecking well ASSURE you that Russell Means and I would have got on very well, for he would have seen not 'another white woman wanting to be Indian' but a woman as fearsomely angry as he could be at times, angry about the same things, for the same reasons and also for very different reasons too, for it was the Sociopathic forefathers of her People who did so much terrible damage to his..and it is the dumbed down, numbed down present people of her race who, to this day, choose to look away, believe what Hollywood wanted them to believe and pretend that 'the Indians got what they deserved!'....

And EVERYTIME someone writes to me to tell me that they have learnt so much from my page, that they never realized what the Native Americans have had to endure and still do, to this day, then I KNOW that I am doing exactly the kind of thing that Russell Means wants us ALL to be doing, and that is taking his message out to the world, and now, with Russell gone on ahead, there is a far greater need than ever before to carry on his work in this world....

These are my final words in here, for I'm no longer going to degrade myself, or the Native American Cause in allowing you to use a People whom I care very deeply about for your own agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 06:48 AM

*ClapClapClapClap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 11:06 AM

Get over yourself, Liz.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:05 PM

To get back on the subject, if that wouldn't be too much trouble, it's impossible to separate the various phases of the Civil War and aftermath as though they are somehow unrelated. Reconstruction, the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments, Reconstruction and Jim Crow are simply effects of causes and causes of effects. Lincoln wanted to get the Emancipation Proclamation into effect by 1862 but knew he couldn't do it until he had a big victory on the battlefield. That came at Antietam when Union forces stopped the Confederate Army from taking over Maryland. He put the Proclamation into effect on January 1, 1863. This Proclamation was not a law as it was never ratified by Congress. It was an executive order.

Lincoln had no authority to end slavery by Proclamation in states in the Union so states as Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware and the like were exempt. It targeted 10 states which were in rebellion against the Union and basically said that as they fell under union control, the slaves in the region were automatically freed. Contrary to the belief that it freed no slaves immediately, it freed tens of thousands in areas of the South under control of the Union Army but millions more were not yet freed. No slaves in the Union states were freed.

Lincoln's purpose for the Emancipation Proclamation was to prevent slaves in areas taken over the by Union Army from being seized as contraband and furthermore allowed them to join the Union Army. So what Lincoln was doing was creating an ever-expanding army that didn't require Northern volunteers or conscripts. As the Union Army pushed into the South, the army became self-perpetuating by signing on newly freed slaves as soldiers.

The major effect of the Emancipation Proclamation was that it made freeing the slaves the main goal of the war and gave the Union the impetus to do it because it enabled them to win the war faster.

While Lincoln did reply to Horace Greeley that he would not free a single slave if it meant ripping the Union apart, this was a calculated statement. If the Union was ripped apart, then that meant he had lost the war and he would not have the authority to end slavery anywhere. It was a statement made to quiet those who were angrily saying that white people were being forced to die in order to free blacks from servitude. Lincoln's actions spoke louder than his words--he was out to end slavery, that he saw emancipation as a condition of a Union victory. If he did not end it, the problems that led up to the war would still be present and so the war would flare up again and again. To truly win the war, slavery had to die.

Lincoln reiterated that emancipation was the main goal in the Gettysburg Address by stating that this govt was founded on the proposition that all men are created equal and that this was the principle over which so many men had died in that war and that they must not have died in vain and that if we carried on with the task for which they died, this nation would "have a new birth of freedom" so that the govt founded 87 years earlier wouldn't end up on the scrap heap of history. It's difficult to understand what else he could have meant if not the abolition of slavery.

The following year, Lincoln pushed for the 13th amendment to the Constitution abolishing slavery throughout the US and "on any place subject to their jurisdiction." It was formally adopted to the Constitution on December of 1865.

As far as Lincoln suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus, he was perfectly within his right to do it. The Writ could be legally suspended during rebellions or invasions. Lincoln suspended it in states under rebellion in order to get control. Jefferson Davis also suspended the Writ of Habeas Corpus in Confederate states in rebellion. He also had Yankees that lived just south of the Mason-Dixon line imprisoned without trial just as Lincoln had done with Southerners living just north of the line.

The real cause of Jim Crow was not Reconstruction. Reconstruction was actually preventing Jim Crow. But after Hayes withdrew federal troops from the South, the democrats took over and passed the "Black Codes" upon which the Jim Crow era was ushered in. While the Klan may have in certain instances protected black communities from marauders and while black militias did often get out of hand and commit crimes, the Klan stood steadfastly against Reconstruction, Radical Republicanism and "negro rule." They killed, maimed and intimidated anyone they dubbed a carpetbagger, scalawag or radical republican. They killed any blacks who spoke or against white supremacy rule and so contributed to the very lawlessness and corruption they decried.

So whose honesty should really be at question here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:34 PM

Food for thought, DDT.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 04:37 PM

Lincoln was scum.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:02 PM

Yup, DDT, that was pretty much the way it went down... And, yes, Reconstruction held Jim Crow off until Hayes was sworn into office...

I might add that the Reconstruction/occupation was considered a poke in the eye to Southerners... This 'caused a double does of hatred for black folks and by early 1877 Jim Crow and the Klan were chompin' at the bit to punish black folks and have been at it, at some level, ever since...

In 1979 a non-violent, legal civil rights march occurred in Greensboro, NC... The Klan set up on the parade route and shot and killed 5 demonstrators... None were charged???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:26 PM

Just a cautionary note, Hinkle:

Never take a laxative. If you do, your head will shrink to the size of a prune.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:40 PM

The Krinkx is just a gnat, Don, and like a gnat the more yo swat at it the more it wants to mess with you... Ignore it and it either goes away or ceases to bother you...

Or in the words of my poor brother, "Turn the radio up"...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:47 PM

A friendly suggestion for you, Henry K: one other effortless way for you to attract attention and gain comparable amounts of respect would be to walk around in public with your doohicky hanging out. But then again, that would require you to get up from the computer and walk around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:48 PM

200 honestly cute posts!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:50 PM

Apparently you haven't seen the Krinkx picture, f-prince... He wears his "doohicky" on top of his head... lol...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:51 PM

Jayzuz, what a waste of perfectly good bandwidth!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 09:10 PM

Lincoln considered repatriating former slaves, because he knew that after emancipation there would be a good deal of racial tension in this country.

He was hardly the first. The American Colonization Society founded Liberia in the 1830s as a haven for freed Blacks. Before that, the British sent some Blacks who had served with their army, in the revolutionary war to Africa.

There are few saints among us. Many of the leaders of the American Women's Suffrage movement were nativists and racists. While in England Emmeline and Christabel Pankhurst thought World War I was a splendid idea, and disowned sister Sylvia for being a pacifist.

Last year the Western Band of the Cherokee announced that Blacks, descendants of slaves who had belonged to members of the tribe, were no longer to be considered Cherokee.

Lincoln was flawed, as are we all. But he did a great deal of good in this world, and he knew that ordinary people mattered, something modern Republicans seem to have forgotten.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 09:45 PM

Well said, LadyJean.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 04:29 AM

Gollygoshkins. A fine kettle of fish we have here.
Looks like I came up with an enticing thread.
I hope you are all happy.
WWAD?
(What Would Abe Do?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 05:34 AM

Trying to find totally honest politicians or leaders anywhere is a hopeless task now let alone back then! Injustices to any people is abhorent whether it is because of race or as was happening in the Uk because you happened to be poor. But that was the attitude of a time past and hope it stays that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 05:34 AM

It seems everyone is racist to some degree. Prejudiced. Discriminatory.
Regional bigotry. Class hatred. Gender hate.
Have you hugged a Republican today?
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:12 AM

Its all very well.

But I repeat Henry, can you show any instance in Abraham Lincoln's career, when he

1) wore a false beard
2) farted and said it wasn't him
3) nicked the lead off the roof
4) advertised pension schemes on afternoon television
5) wrote a sitcom that didn't make anyone laugh
6) made up sexy bits to sell his life story
7) embarked on a war and cut the military budget

This I think shows there were areas of great transparency and honesty in his lfe. And that's all any of us can aspire to, and not all that many of us will succeed. Certainly none of the current lot of politicians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 08:13 AM

I wonder if he was served by slaves at The White House? When were slaves banished from there? I suspect Abe of hypocrisy. I think he took advantage til the very end...
=(:-( °)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 11:13 AM

I think as good folkies you should question everything the government presents you with. Was Hitler really so bad? Was George Washington really so great? Abe so damned honest? Slick Willie really so horny? W really so stupid?Jimmy Carter really so nice yet lustful? Reagan so brain dead? It all begs the question....
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:25 PM

Is Prez al-Obama really that black?
=(:-( 0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:27 AM

Henry - here is what a lifetime of experience has taught me.

1) If we take a step forward, we go forward.

2) If we fart, the gas goes backwards.

3) On BBC Breakfast television, the pretty lady sat on the couch never uncrosses her legs in a way that gives me a sneaky look at her panties.

These truths we take to be self evident.

The insights provided by common sense and experience absolve us from doubting everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:46 AM

"the pretty lady sat on the couch never uncrosses her legs in a way that gives me a sneaky look at her panties" "The insights provided by common sense and experience absolve us from doubting everything."

But haven't you ever realized that, if you've never seen her uncross her legs, you don't know for certain that she's wearing panties?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:55 PM

Sorry if I am repeating something said earlier. There is something in the thread that makes my eyes bleed so I can't revirew it all.

Anyway. There is a HUGE statue of Abe Lincoln here in Manchester, England. He held the area very close due to the support given him and his anti-slavery lobby by the Lancashire Mill Workers who starved rather than work with cotton from the Confederacy.

Lots about it on t'interweb but this article is quite succinct.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:26 PM

God bless the Mancunians and Lancashire Mill Workers, Dave - they stood by their principles despite economic hardship & should be revered & credited for their stance - but you'll never convince the Neo-Confederate, Lost Cause bloc here on the Mudcat.

But you have my thanks and appreciation for setting it out!

Cheers,

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:42 PM

How do they feel about Chinese cotton?
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:47 PM

Who gives a shit, Krunkle?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:03 PM

They probably wear it all the time, Henry. No Lancashire cotton industry anymore so they are on holiday in the Bahamas all the time...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:07 PM

Chinese slavery produces it. Where's the indignation now?
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:30 AM

People are selective in their indignation, Henry. Same deal with apes. On any given day there gotta be hundreds of thousands of things one could get indignant about, but everyone has their few special favorite obsessions, see? So...they just concentrate on those few favorites and they ignore the rest. This is efficient, actually, cos if one tried to get indignant about every bad thing that is goin' on...it would just be too much to handle, and the indignancy nerves in the body would shortcircuit! That would lead to total exhaustion, incontinency, and impotency. A nasty spot to be in! This is why I get indignant, for instance, about specism and about people bein' discourteous to women...but I don't spend a lotta time railin' on about religion or obsessin' over gay rights issues.

Like anyone else, I got a limited amount of indignancy ravin' capability percolatin' around in my system and just waitin' to bombard the ears of any poor sucker who happens to be in range. I gotta make sure I measure it out carefully so as to have enough OUTRAGE left for each one of my "special" favorite issues to do them full justice!

Some would call this hypocrisy. I just call it efficiency.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:49 AM

The entire trade imbalance between the US and China comes down to three factors: cheap labor, currency value manipulation and subsidies...

We have some control over these... First, we can choose not to buy Chinese products, second, we can push on China to quit manipulating it's currency with various international law suits...

One of the biggies that we could do is revisit all the tax codes that all but demand that CEOs move their operations to China... Here's my pet peeve on that front... China is perfectly willing to throw a Chinese farmer off the land he works and build a turn-key factory, infrastructure and all and ***give*** it to Boss Hog, Inc. in order to create even more Chinese jobs... Now, if Boss Hog, Inc. were to own that factory here it would be a taxable asset of the corporation and subject to be taxed... However, the factory that Boss Hog, Inc (an American based company) owns in China is exempt from being taxed???

That's just one of hundreds of little loopholes that Boss Hog, Inc's purchased congressmen have put on the books over the last 3 decades...

So, if you don't want to wear Chinese cotton then write yer stenking Congressperson and tell him or her to close down all the stupid job killing loopholes... There are hundreds of them that need to go...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:13 PM

Bastards!!!!
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:59 PM

Ah, but Bobert, U.S. corporations WANT the Chinese to "manipulate" their currency because an under-valued yuan is putting big bucks in their pockets.

Outfits like MalWart have developed supply chains in China that their profits depend on. A rise in the yuan means their costs will increase & profits decrease. Same for GE & all the other outfits that have shifted production to China - means higher costs for them.

These guys - despite the Romneyoid bullshit, will do anything in their power to PREVENT any steps that will lessen the value of the dollar vs. Chinese currency.

More right-wing smoke & mirrors & disinformation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 01:13 PM

Yup, Greg... That why they have rigged everything so that they make the most $$$... Notice I didn't say that Boss Hog has any major complaints on currency manipulation... I was just talking about what we, as a nation can do... Yes, there are reasons why we don't...

We talk the talk but don't walk the walk...

Hmmmmmmmmm????

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:28 AM

If Abe was such a swell guy, how come a drunken drug addict like U. S. Grant was his top man? Couldn't he find a better choice?
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:56 PM

Just came from Spielberg's "Lincoln."

Brilliant through and through.

Four stars.

Better than anything Spielberg has done to date.

Anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:38 PM

a drunken drug addict like U. S. Grant

There goes your proof.

You realy are a complete and absolute ignorant fuckwit, aintcha, Krunkle?


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:03 AM

Just Say No
=(:-( o)


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:16 AM

General Grant was a drunken bum.
Drunken General


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:19 AM

Yeah, Grant was indeed no stranger to the bottle... He wasn't all that great a general or president either... Whether or not he would have been better had he been sober is a matter on conjecture...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:45 AM

Yeah, Grant was indeed no stranger to the bottle...

"No stranger"? Which could be said of at least half the officers on BOTH sides in the Civil War, and about the same proportion of the U.S. populationin general at that time. Check the statistics on production & consumption of alcoholic beverages in mid-19th Century U.S.


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Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:56 AM

Drunken bum? Hardly.

Grant was a regular drinker in an age when "Temperance" (abstention) was the rule for the insufferably genteel. It was to the advantage of rebels and Copperheads to portray him as a drunk, and they gleefully did so.

Drunken bums don't win wars and don't get elected and re-elected to the Presidency. Furthermore, the lenient terms Grant gave to Lee, on Lincoln's inspiration but not specific instruction, very likely prevented guerrilla warfare after April, 1865.

As President, Grant was victimized by misplaced faith in his corrupt colleagues. His personal honesty has never been questioned. He pushed the 15th Amendment through Congress and won legislation to allow the Feds to prosecute the Klan. What's more, he advocated citizenship and education for Native Americans rather than letting them rot on reservations or be wiped out. He appointed Ely Parker as the first Native American Commisioner of Indian Affairs.

Grant wrote his memoirs while he was in debt and dying painfully of throat cancer. Nobody who's read them will consider "Grant" either a "drunk" or a "bum."

Just some facts for the very few who still care.


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