BS: The Corporate World

Subject: The Corporate World
From: Davey
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 10:40 AM

Last evening I attended a corporate sponsored 'Team building' event, just the latest in one of many such things I've had to participate in over the 35 years I've worked for a major Canadian Bank. The event Involved more than 200 people from across our division, and was the culmination of a process that began about a month ago, when we were arbitrarily divided into 23 'teams' of 16 players each and strongly encouraged to participate in a 3-week trivia game in which the teams could earn points. Most of the other team members were strangers to me. The only thing we had in common was that we worked for the same division of the company.

At the event, held at a large night club in Toronto, complete with computer controlled lighting and an extremely high tech sound system (massive speaker banks on all sides of the room), we were again arbitrarily divided into 'teams', and put through a couple of inane team building games, followed by a fine meal, followed by more 'trivia' and the presentation of prizes to the winning 'teams'. The event formally ended at 9:00 PM but it was announced that the DJ would be available until 1:00 AM for those that wished to stay.

We were not compelled to go to this event, but I went for a couple of reasons: to put in an appearance for my 'team', but mainly to observe what Corporations are doing to 'motivate' their employees these days.

Some observations - One woman I spoke to said that I could not imagine how much she detested these artificial things, but that she had been told she had to be there.
The music volume was such that one could not carry on a quiet conversation.
It wasn't any kind of music I would have chosen to listen to anyway.
The conversations I did get into mainly consisted of small talk, mostly related to work issues.
There were a few cliques in evidence.
There was also in evidence a tendency to toady up to the management people there.. (not that I have anything against toads, particularly in a garden).
As the evening wore on, the atmosphere became louder, more boisterous, and took on the appearance of a rowdy dance club, which I haven't been into for a long time.
As I left the place at 9:00 I reflected that I'm glad that I can choose my friends, but that I have no choice about who I work with.
As I drove home I turned on my tape deck and heard acoustic music with intelligible lyrics.
I hate that plastic environment I'm forced to endure daily, although I like most of the individuals I come into contact with, they are just workers like me.
I'm really looking ahead (5 years) to retiring from this company.

I just wanted to share with you what it feels like to be involved with the corporate world. Does anyone else have similar experiences?

I love the Mudcat and all you wonderful people. Being here is one of the highlights of every day..

Davey… (:>)

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: MMario
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 10:45 AM

*shudder* think about being in corporate EDUCATION. you don't want to know, believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 11:20 AM

I have had a variety of experiences in the corporate world - some bad and tasteless, much like what you have described, but some interesting and worthwhile.

I find that high powered corporate level people are still people, afterall. There are warm, kind hearted, talented individuals, with genuine concern and consideration for their fellow humans, and there are complete utter and selfish as*holes! I have met people of worth and consequence in the corporate world, and I have met people who empitomize the image of the corporate snakes.

Like you, I appreciate the warmer side of real life, and can't wait to get away from the blasting high tech DJ world and into my car with my Ed Miller, Bill Staines or Lyle Lovett CDs!

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: harpgirl
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 11:22 AM

...so sorry for you Davey...sometimes I miss the perks of a coporate or academic job...but when I hear stories like yours...I am reminded of how nice it is to work for myself...I see the patients, I do the HCFA forms, write the notes, do the depositions, argue with insurance companies, fill out forms, hold 15+contracts about which I have no negotiating power, do my own marketing, pay my own malpractice insurance, teach my own CEU courses, pay all my dues myself, have no sick time, lose money when I take time off, have no one telling me I did great or poorly, watch my income go down every year since managed care invented itself, play lots of music, go out and play music, meet my friends when I want to play music...spend the weekend playing music... oh and I am the sole provider for the household...as I tell my patients; The grass is always greener but you still have to mow it!" harpgirl

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: bbelle
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 12:05 PM

I've been in and out of the corporate world ever since I graduated from college. Like Liam, some of it has been good and some bad and tasteless. I've worked as a contractor and owned my own businesses. The biggest issue which drew me back into corporate society was benefits ... health, dental, vision, life, 401k, retirement. In some areas of North America, most of your smaller companys just simply do not provide benefits. And to provide them for yourself is just simply not affordable, at the same level. So, here I am, working for the soon-to-be 2nd largest telecommunications company in the world. At least I'm in a small market, so we manage to retain a good share of autonomy ... at least until they catch on. They do provide me with excellent benefits and the state-of-the-art tools with which to do my job. And, in addition, there are lots of perks. I'm quite fortunate to work for an individual who understands my need to travel and see friends. So, right now, I'm okay ... but who knows what can happen in a few months. With buy-outs and mergers, etc., even corporate life is not as stable as it once was ... moonchild

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 12:23 PM

Yup Davey, my dad ended up being part of the pharmaceutical corporate world and it virtually destroyed him. In his 20s (the 1920s) he was a jazz clarinetist and future pharmacist in his dad's store on the Danforth. Apparently in the thirties he enjoyed working in the drugstore and managing my mom's music career. In '39 he joined up with the army to fight Hitler and spent 5 years mostly in France. When he got back, he joined Schering Corporation. He named the cough syrup Coricidin -which was chock full of codeine in those days, (the kids of employees, including your truly, were the first recipients of it's amazing "healing power") and I knew him mostly as a corporate executive. I never saw him pick up an instrument, but I saw him get up every morning at 6 am to go to the office, and I certainly saw him start to drink heavily. When he died, I found hundreds of sheets of paper on which he'd outlined humourous book ideas. They really WERE funny - kind of a pharmacist James Herriot. I'm sorry that he never could find the time to write (or play)
If he'd only had less discipline and less responsibility, he could have turned out like his only son. (ha ha) I miss him.
Thanks for the thread Davey.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Llanfair
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 12:29 PM

Much depends on what you want out of life. My sister works for an enormous drug company, and is given bonuses and gifts, holidays and mutual support and praise sessions. She is envious of me, because I have decided, at 52, that there is more to life than having loads of money and a job that makes you unhappy. I'm leaving at the end of November to do all the gardening, singing, craftwork and reading that I haven't had the time to do since before the kids were born. We won't be well off, our diet will be healthier, and cheaper. I'll have the energy to make and keep friends.
What will be even better is that I will no longer have to be nice to people I wouldn't choose as friends. I will go to folk festivals when I want to, and GET A LIFE. Hwyl, Bron.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 12:36 PM

Moonkid and Liam have a point. No matter where you go you will find 'the good, the bad and the ugly'
Obviously there are exceptions such as Mudcat Cafe where you only find the good, right?
I figure, if you have to work in a corporation you might as well focus on the good aspects. Perception is a funny thing, it sees what it wants.
I believe as we grow our needs will change, causing current situations to magnify all the awful things which helps nudge us to move on.
I remember when I wanted to live in a small community I would look at the big city I lived in with disgust. I hated the pollution, meaningless busyness, superficial conversatons and material hunger. Two years ago, I moved back into the same city and I couldn't love it more.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 12:49 PM

Rick, maybe your dad's qualities of discipline and responsibility helped father the wonderful person that you are.
Little you know who

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: MMario
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 12:59 PM

'phyte, I mean this as a compliment,really, but sometimes you remind me of Pollyanna.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 01:01 PM

Who the pholk is Pollyanna?

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Melbert
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 01:18 PM

I guess I get the best of both worlds. I work for a huge Swedish based international organisation, but I'm in kind of a specialist field, so in the UK there's only six in my team! It's so laid back it's horizontal.

Thinking of corporate issues though we are approaching that season where you receive the corporate CHristmas card, in the envelope having a label produced by computerfrom the corporate mailing list, with the rubber-stamp signature and the message "sincere best wishes!" Isn't it nice to know they care?

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Allan C.
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 01:44 PM

Here is one take on Pollyanna

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 02:11 PM

FRom sad experience, I've found that "motivation" is a hoax. Motivation comes from within. DEmotivation, on the other hand....

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 02:46 PM

Thanks Allan, now I have a perfect answer for the new Thread I started this morning.
Little Neo

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 08:15 PM

We're broke alot of the time, don't have much going for retirement, do good to keep the house from being totally run down, etc, etc...but eight years after leaving my second Fortune 500, Karen and I are more convinced than ever it was the right thing to do. I turned in my resignation letter, in it stating that I didn't "want my life or my son's to wind up like a Harry Chapin song lyric." They had no idea what I was talking about and it validated the decision right away. I know longer have to look in the mirror and wonder, "What the hell happened to ME?".........I've lived several lives, but this is the best.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 10:17 PM

During the past 26 years, the corporation almost broke my spirit a few times, the closest being lately. In this environment, intelligence is a major handicap, creativity disruptive to the process, honesty and oppenness is political suicide. My younger son has 3 1/2 years to go in college and then I leave with spirit intact.

What a book I'm gonna write!

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Gint
Date: 30 Oct 99 - 09:06 PM

I have worked for several of the larger UK retail groups, usually as store manager and at "Team Building" or management seminars I have always without trying managed to get noticed by the gods (CEO's & vice prez's) proberbly because I treated them like people

I was on a management course in the early 80's with Tandy's and in chatting to the MD (UK version of CEO) he mentioned he had aproblem with training video's, because of the NTCS > PAL conversion at that time was a problem

I told him that I had lunch most days with a team of reserch technitions who had solved the problem.

The scene: in a bar the first night of a two week training course a new manager being held by his suit lapels by the head of the UK company whilst the European vice president was jokingly punching him in the gut, to get the needed information out of him

For the rest of the fortnight I was treated as an alien I obviously knew the GODS and sacraficed other manages at their alter.

To top it the company bought the lab and I got a free lunch on the company

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: thosp
Date: 30 Oct 99 - 09:26 PM

ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmnow to deal with another day of coporate c*ap

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: thosp
Date: 31 Oct 99 - 02:21 PM

guess i just learned something new about posting (i think) ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm oh well-to deal with another day of corporate c*ap

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Peter T.
Date: 31 Oct 99 - 04:55 PM

Having been around corporations a lot, one crucial aspect of Davey's experience is the proliferation of failed sociological/religious models on how to promote fake solidarity in social orders that are actually openly (or thinly masked) boosters of selfish behaviour on behalf of absent hierarchical masters. Anyone with any sense knows that, except for a very few creative companies, rewards are organized around vicious selfishness, unpredictable luck with a product line, or the eternal "taking credit by showing up". The notions of "team", "horizontal trust", "just-in-time bonding" (true corp-speak) are all variations on juvenile schemes created by MBAs whose personal experience of teamwork is solely based on the one time "group all-nighter" deadline for their MBA professors. Each time some new book by these clever morons is released, a new metaphor is propounded, ranging from the "team" , to the "floor", to the "conversion to the corporation". Most people, like the Hindu peasants of old, simply continue farming, and wait for the next set of barbarians to pass by.
Universities have been exempt from this until recently, but we are now seeing "criteria for excellence" entering in. T-groups cannot be far behind.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: thosp
Date: 31 Oct 99 - 06:49 PM

PeterT---- i really like "clever morons"(the phrase not the people)

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 01:04 AM

One of my fondest memories of my Corporate Former Life is sitting at dinner with a flock of my cohorts and our clients, everyone having a conversation about the shiftless bums who were bankrupting the country by abusing Unemployment and Welfare, while we rang up a tax-deductible $1200 dollar tab of food and drinks. And why shouldn't the American Taxpayer reimburse us? After all, it's the cost of doing business.

And motivational seminars. Have any of you heard of the company in Pennsylvania that conducts Employee Motivation sessions on the Gettysberg Battlefield? Participants are taken to the site of Pickett's Charge, as an object lesson in what it means to be totally committed to an objective. In other words, just as the men in Pickett's Brigade were willing to face certain death with honor and bravery, the Sales Directors for Walmart should spare nothing in the quest to attain their double-digit sales gain for the year. Appalling and obscene.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 01:13 AM

Hi Leej. Appalling and obscene indeed, but you know me, I seem to picture the bizarre side (with it's humour) as well. Funny thing, I was (honestly) going to make a joke here about motivation seminars on a battlefield where so many died...but it won't come..cause it AIN'T funny. Thanks for the post.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 01:37 PM

Does anyone know that quote from Petronius Arbiter about constantly being reformed into new groups just as the one you were in was beginning to work together? I can't find it anywhere, and I would like to have it to hand for whenever we get some MBA type telling us about forming storming performing or some other jargon based sequence of imagined group behaviour?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: JedMarum
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 02:36 PM

It always amazes me how easy it is to slam the 'corporate' world and those in it with pure, absolute and malicious prejudice. If I were to respond to a Mudcat thread by calling Blacks lawless drug addicts, or Jews malicious power and money grabbing people (both commonly bantered prejudices) I would be soundly, quickly, and correctly rebuked. Yet for some reason that escapes me, we find it easy to claim that all corporate life is vicious selfishness, and to imply that the only contribution one makes in the corporate world is to steal the resources and/wealth of the unnamed underpriveledged, presumeably noble lot. This idea is just as abhorent to me as any other bigotry.

I repeat myself from my earlier comments in thread, and say further; I have actually at the highest of corporate life, with some very very talented and successful corporate people ... I find some of them delightful, caring valuable human beings. I find others, less so. They are human beings, much like those fine Mudcatters here, and their human value is no less.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 03:43 PM

Liam...I know there are good people in Corporations. I used to be one, and had many good friends that were also Corporate officers and employees I do think that the list of expenditures that gets posted to the taxpayer for supposed "business expenses" is totally outrageous. There are many alcoholics in our country who are financing their habits with Company Credit Cards, and their expense accounts are being written off as legitimate expenses.

I also believe that Corporations tend to take on their own momentum, and in the process become less an less responsive to their own employees and customers, until they often collapse under their own weight, or are conquered by bright entrepeneurs who have their fingers on the pulse of the marketplace.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 04:05 PM

As Gandhi says, hate the structure, not the people.
LEJ, didn't anyone tell them what a stupid fiasco Gettysburg was, epitomized by Pickett's Charge? It is like using the Battle of Verdun to boost company morale.
Alas, thosp, "clever morons" is not my invention. I forget whose it was. Long before the immortal Dilbert, however. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 04:16 PM

Peter, you're right. Perhaps the metaphor of blind and selfless commitment to a doomed struggle was more apt than the seminar conductors had anticipated. It was the banality of it that I found objectionable.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: MMario
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 04:45 PM

liam -- the difference between the "corporate world" and the people in it is like the difference between "organized religion" and people with faith. The two are members of the same set, but definately not equal.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: JedMarum
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 04:50 PM

MMario - I don't feel a whole lot better if you slam my Catholicism instead of my Catholic faith.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 05:09 PM

Liam, you are absolutely correct that people are people, wherever they are. However, the games are different, and have an effect on the players.

I have found, after 30 years in the corporate world (the last 26 at the same place) that I don't have the stomach anymore for the bullshit. I've been very successful for a long time, do my job well, manage to get the job done and motivate people on my team. The main person not motivated on my team nowadays is me. I sit there sometimes and wonder how the heck I've done it so long! It's not necessarily bad stuff (although some of the human sacrifices are indeed very bad stuff). I'm just burned out.

I've seen much of it go around and come around again. Many of those MBA ideas are grand, and some even work. With good ideas, and continuity and vision in upper management (the famous 'M' word), they would probably result in improvements. I'm just tired of the whole game and want to do other things while I still have the energy and health.

The other thing is, I am not comfortable saying what I really feel about the corporate world until I'm safely retired from it. That speaks volumes.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: JedMarum
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 05:32 PM

Barbara - I understand your comments. I too have found it dificult to keep a sustained interest in working (not living) the corporate world. I must say my successes there have never required a sacrifice of my morals. I understand that some people do sacrifce those morals and still advance. My arguement is; this is a fact of life, not a fact of corporate life.

I face the fact that I am often an outsider in the corporate world, that I am an anomoly, but I have enjoyed my time there, for the most part, and have moved on when I didn't. It seems to me that world and the peole in it, is just like the worlds where I worked as a truck driver and bakchoe operator, and as a farm hand, and as a musician. People are people. You will find jewells in all locations!

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: sophocleese
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 06:03 PM

The slamming of corporations comes from the perception that they exert an undue influence on the rest of the world. Corporate structures, their language and their priorities have seeped into the public life of this country, Cananda, to an appalling extent. Politicians are now seen less as people with vision than people with corporate backers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 06:30 PM

My dad died at 48 from, among other things, giving himself over to a corporate entity. He strove to give my mother the status and the address she wanted. He did that until he died in 1946. I was 5 years old then and I'll never forget it. ---As a teenager I found Roscoe Holcomb and Jack Kerouac. After finding Bob Gibson, Big Joe Williams, Ed Balchowsky and Sandy Paton, I decided I wanted to be a singer of mostly American trad. songs and rejected any connection to the corporate world. I retired first & climbed the mountains and walked by the oceans and rivers while I had the strength to do it---a good move since now, at 58, I'm generally unable to do most of those things. As Robert Frost said, "And that has made all the difference." Yeah, it was right for me. As of now, I've got 10 more years than my dad managed----and counting...

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: JedMarum
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 07:07 PM

Art - I too have selected the road less travelled, and that, ironically, has led me occasionally into the corporate boardrooms! It has also made it possible for me to have adventures in Bolivia and El Salvador, Ecuador and the Galapagos, England, China, Canada and all over the US. I am very lucky indeed, in fact blessed to have been to these places, worked with some wonderful people and seen so much of their worlds. I hope to do more.

I don't think it is the corporate world so much, as the way we respond to it - that harms us. I guess my feeling like an outsider there, like the bubble would burst at any moment and my golden carriage would turn back into a pumkin - has made it easy for me to be ready to give it all up. It has been a blessing, not a curse.

I don't want to downplay the possible evils of that world ... there are abuses, addictions and other unhealthy life styles practice by someof its participants - but the same can be said of worlds of musicians, of truckdrivers, and of farm hands.

It's a funny thing; I don't know how I ever got into the corporate world. I never intended to, and would have laughed if you told me when I was 20 that's where I may end up working. I never graduated from college. I never studied programming (my management area) and I never even thought I had a 'career' - I just put one foot in front of the other, and had fun.

After 12 plus years in the music business I had learned a lot about electronics from the sound equipment I used. I got a better 'day job' fixing computer equipment, then things just happened for me. It's been a whirlwind, but 17 years later, it's taken me far ... and full cirlce, I might add. I am back to music (it never went too far away for me, though I stopped performing for a number of years) and enjoying more than I ever did! During my whirlwind tour of the corporate world, I have met some wonderful people and had some wonderful experiences. Some of those experiences have ended up in my songs, others I'm still digesting!

Perhaps this explains my ruffled feathers over the generalizing of life in the corporate world. I must say, I met a character or two in those travels that the Mudcatters would simply love!

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 07:40 PM

Liam, I'm sure you're correct. Just different paths to different strokes I suspect---to corrupt an old saying. My doings on the road were ones I never would've passed up either. But a 5 year old kid can get influenced in an immature way that becomes a pathology of it's own sort of. As a result I've never worn a tie since 1967 (my wedding to Carol). I'm not so much proud of that as just stating a fact. We all do what we must---Mother Teresa or Atilla The Honey. On the gig circuit I've slept on Harvey's couch in Springfield, Illinois while his geese crapped on my head and I've taken a Greyhound 2,400 miles (round trip for $24.00) to Mexico City where a chicken fell on my head from the luggage rack. Hell, I even picked in a Winnepeg bar when a huge fight broke out between those who wanted to listen and those who were too drunk to care. (Where's the chicken wire when we need it?) The closest to corporate life I ever got was working through the URBAN GATEWAYS arts-in-education booking folks---who I loved most of the time---but was still an independant contractor & on my own. That was how I, personally, had to go after my own Grail. And it sure has been a kick and a half.

With respect,

Art

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Paul G.
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 07:55 PM

I believe that at this point in my life I have found the best possible balance between the corporate necessities (children in and headed toward college)and my creative necessities (writing and performing). I work in management at a not-for-profit children's clinic. It is none the less heavy with the trappings of the corporate identity because of its size (300+ physicians in 5 locations). BUT...as I walked into my office this morning the first question asked was not "why did you miss that important budget meeting Friday afternoon", but rather "how did the studio sessions go over the weekend?" and "when can we hear the new songs?"...Then I went to the budget meeting. The company supports both my contributions to the "business" of health care, and to the regional folk art community. All things being equal, if I had to choose, I would choose the music without the slightest hesitation. But, for now, life in the corporation under these circumstances ain't bad...

Paul

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 08:48 PM

I'm not as concerned about a potential "sacrifice of morals" as I am about the risk that "power corrupts."

Being put into a position of power over people's lives (jobs) tends to give that person an inflated sense of their own worth and deflated sense of the other person's worth. Being desensitized to criticizing someone's performance as part of your job, getting into the habit of censoring one's own comments for political repercussions, being forced to assume a person's value based on their salary or influence: these are all signs of the corruption that is possible. Dabbling in the corporate world isn't the same as selling your soul.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: JedMarum
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 09:48 PM

good points all. thanks. and thanks for starting the thread, Davey!

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: thosp
Date: 01 Nov 99 - 10:55 PM

liam_devlin
you will rarely see me post a long message to a thread
i hatte to type and i don't feel i express myself all that well
i like to read many of the threads and admire how well so many people here (including yourself)are able to express themselves-----
but right now my hands are shaking -from maybe a combination of anger-rage-wanting to express better --(no anger at you)but you have been soooooo lucky
just to touch lightly on my personal experience with the corporate world sitting at meetings where policies were being formed with how to increase profit-cut payroll/employees-and if it was not legal-how not to get caught--you have been very lucky-- but it can in no way be compared to talking about minorities or whatever
just to mention a couple of other examples of (what i beleive)corporate mentality
the tabacco industry--the hidden cancer studies
the power industry--cancer cluster studies(supressed)
the marketing of powered milk by the Nestle's corp. in Africa and the resultant deaths of infants---- i'm glad that your personal experience has been ok (that's what i meant by sooooo lucky)but the nature of the beast (for the vast majority of companies)grap as much as you can get-give as little--and so what if someone gets hurt -dont get caught --- or the other one about the auto industry -ahhhh nevermind i'v said enough
PEACE thosp

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Davey
Date: 02 Nov 99 - 12:16 AM

Haven't been able to follow this thread for a couple of days, but reading through just now triggers some comments.

Liam, I haven't set out to slam any individuals in the corporate world, although I have met some who need to be slammed. I've also met some fine people who rose into senior positions, some who were too human and people oriented and didn't survive, and others who were caring and well-liked, and are still around because they are able to be humane and yet still meet the corporation's needs.

Barbara, I agree, there are things which I also can't say to co-workers at this stage.

Peter, I like your analysis, and description, of the failed experiments with employees personalities and emotions (although you didn't use those exact words).. I was rising in the corporation some years ago, and was sent on a particular course which, I came to realize a short time later, had the same structure and format as did an extremely manipulative religious retreat my wife and I went on. It wasn't designed to teach, it was designed to manipulate feelings and emotions and personalities.
A few years after that I was a computer operations manager, and found that it was too muckh an intrusion into my personal life, so I asked to be taken out of management and put in another line, technical, or project work, or whatever. The manager two levels above me referred to me as a 'quitter' and put pressure on me to resign. My salary was essentially frozen for about 4 years before I proved that I could be of value to the company in other ways.

My problem with corporations is twofold, one is that they are probably the least democratic institutions in the world, with plans being formulated at the highest levels and forced downward, while the "teams" at the bottom have to come up with ways to help achieve these goals.

The other is the fact that by their very nature, humanity takes a back seat to profit. In fact, one of our current measurement criteria lies in how well we contribute to 'maximizing shareholder value'..

Thank you all for your intelligent, thought-provoking and insightful comments on this thread.

Davey...(:>)

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Nov 99 - 12:01 PM

Yes, one trouble with this discussion is that the term "the corporate world" is just too fuzzy and covers too many types of businesses. If we look at the history of corporations from the Catholic church (the "corpus" of Christ) to the present, most of the important problems stem from (a) a miscategorizing of the organizational with the organic; and (b) size. Problem (a) is the endemic problem of being tempted to give one's spiritual allegiance to an organization rather than what it is meant to embody, such as Christ (you can put an X in that spot). And organizations like to muddy that difference. Problem (b) is, how do you get large numbers of people to work together at all on a common effort?
Corporations are one solution to problems (a) and (b), and I am not convinced that they are a very effective solution. Among the related problems are their legal status as "rights-bearing" entities, which gives them in many jurisdictions equivalent status to human beings. Another problem is the widespread lack of internal structural rules to cope with abuses brought on by corporate goals and the lack of oversight of a system supposedly working for shareholders through boards of directors. These flaws are not, it seems to me, related to the nature of the people involved, but part of the corporate structure as a concept itself. Good people can make any system work. Corporations as a system seem to have basic flaws -- but other systems have them too: universities and non-governmental organizations that I work for have terrible structural flaws. I don't think that we large-brained chimpanzees have worked out the bugs yet in how we work together. Mudcat is probably closer to the answer.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: WyoWoman
Date: 03 Nov 99 - 12:23 AM

I'm busy right now completing a couple of projects for the corporation I work for ;-] so I don't have time to post. BUT... Different corporations have different cultures, and some are pretty good. Many are not very healthy, but they keep trying to get it right. That's part of what can be so crazy-making about it all -- these "new ideas" keep coming down about how to do things better and more efficiently and so forth and sometimes it just seems like the goofy idea du jour -- definitely Dilbert material. What interests me, however, is the amazing difference it can make in people's lives to work for a great company, with good bennies and a culture that's oriented toward actual human people, or working for an exploitative, inconsiderate, emotionally and spiritually stupid company. Life can be very sweet when work actually works.

ww

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Owlkat
Date: 03 Nov 99 - 04:20 AM

Wow, this has really touched some nerves. I'm once again amazed at the value of this forum for it's interchange of ideas and opinions, and blown away by the ability of so many people from so many different places in the world to be able speak and respond with respect, and courtesy. We could really use the Mudcat in Parliament. They'd have to learn how to play mandolin first, though. Hm. I wonder...

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: WyoWoman
Date: 03 Nov 99 - 10:54 AM

I think requiring all our leaders to learn to play music together would be a splendid idea. Just imagine!

WW

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: JedMarum
Date: 03 Nov 99 - 12:30 PM

wyo - I imagine cacophony, as opposed to symphony!

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Nov 99 - 01:36 PM

Well, Bill Clinton plays saxophone reasonably, and I hear he's open to the occasional impromptu jam.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: WyoWoman
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 04:22 PM

Is THAT what he's calling it these days?

WW

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: sophocleese
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 05:42 PM

Could you define 'it' , Wyo Woman?

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: WyoWoman
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 07:26 PM

Lil Neo would scold me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: sophocleese
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 08:03 PM

Hmmm.., define 'scold' then...

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: WyoWoman
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 09:03 PM

That depends on your definition of "define."

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: thosp
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 09:28 PM

(thosp watches the match wyo vs sopho and is enjoying same ! ) :)

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: sophocleese
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 10:35 PM

Its a migh-de-fine match too ain't it thosp? De-fine line tween trud and ficshun.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: thosp
Date: 04 Nov 99 - 11:22 PM

fiction covers truth-- paper covers rock

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 99 - 08:23 AM

Another thing I've noticed in the corporate world, gradually over the past 30 years while we weren't noticing, is the depersonalization of the corporation.

At my first job after college, I remember the company store which sold toiletries, stationery, cards, things you might need during the day. There was a coffee wagon that came around to the offices as well as the cafeteria that was subsidized by the company. The nurse's office had real nurses and a doctor, and it was where you went if you didn't feel well. They administered things like over the counter medicine, offered basic medical advice, let you lie down for an hour, and then sent you back to work. In fact, the ladies room had a couch where you could lie down for a few minutes. The executives used to walk around and talk to the workers occasionally, a big deal. People spoke to each other on the telephone.

Fast forward to today.

There is no company store, just expensive boutiques where you'd never find a stick of gum or an aspirin. The coffee wagon and cafeteria have been replaced by expensive restaurants with "gourmet" selections. The medical department has some former nurses who administer disability claims and track absence cases. The officers of the company are viewed on closed-circuit TV for those "homey" get togethers. People leave e-mail or voice-mail without even trying to speak directly to others.

Subject: RE: BS: The Corporate World
From: thosp
Date: 06 Nov 99 - 07:02 AM

http://www.corporatepredators.org/top100.html