native americans took the land!!!!!!

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 10:07 PM

Gnu, there is only one side to this issue, but the choices are right or wrong. IMO, the way you feel is right.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:18 PM

One of my white neighbors started ragging on those useless drunken Passamaquoddy Indians.."All they do is drink and cause trouble" etc.

I said to her, "What would you do if the government took your land, made you live on a tiny patch of, and destroyed your culture"?\\She never spoke to me again.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:59 PM

Oh dear. I have second hand knowledge of something just said but it's kinda "personal" in that I have buddies on both sides of this issue. How do I put this without offending? Hmmm... okay... before the Whites arrived, not all the tribes here were getting along with each other. So, a bit of Conrad's post are true, from what I was told by Maliseet friends from the Tobique reserve that worked for me on construction projects. The Mi'kmaq (pronounced Migmaw... Mic Mac to many whites and the media) and Maliseet in my province did not always see eye to eye.

I realize that posting that may be unwise but since I said this thread is a good thing in opening eyes and minds, I kinda feel I should say it.

The world ain't perfect and it's people that make that so. White, red, black, purple polka dotted... people are people. I am just glad to have gotten to know so many different people. Makes me a better person and there's always room for improvement, eh?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:30 PM

Ah, a Scottish ranting nutter heard from!

Sorry, Doc, but

1. Please show me where I "attack[ed] aboriginal people [in] an attempt to deflect responsibiliy from the genocide they suffered, and still suffer".

2. Referencing the beginning of Liz's River of Bullshit, viz:

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:08 PM (Excerpts)

Lizzie: the way the Native Americans have been treated and are STILL being treated, to this day, is shocking and deeply appalling.

Greg: No argument. [Emphasis mine}

From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish - PM
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:48 PM

Lizzie: get off YOUR fucking High Horse, Greg

So go on fawning at the feet of Saint Liz all you want.

P.S. Almost forgot, Doc: fuck off.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:10 PM

Amazing....

Post stated:

"Sinnerss all just have thanksgiving that we survived!"

Simply put- native americans were sinners like all of us

as in ordinary imperfect human beings

they did everything those who came after them did just at a different level of magnitude and technology

they beat up on other tribes constantly displacing them and taking their land- political activity just like today no different

The point is that some would like to hold the Native Americans unaccountable or somehow more perfect.

That is simply wrong- Those who came after them also had wonderful philosophical thoughts. All peoples have made contributions bad and good.

So lets just give thanks that we all somehow survived our human imperfections.
To try again....to do better

Conrad

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: ollaimh
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 03:40 PM

ms cornish, threads about native americans turn into nasty and vivious battles because they are the primary and contunuing victums of anglo imperialist genocide. to accept their history with an open mind meands to question the whole structure of genocidal military capitalism which has despoiled more of the world than any other force in history, and of course immensly more than any aborginal people.

attacking aboriginal people is an attempt to deflect responsibiliy from the genocide they suffered, and still suffer.   the present generation of natives is still shattered by the residentail schools, through the trauma of the survivors and the trauma of the anonymous deahs of their missing children.(the rcmp admit to about three and a half thousand disappeared children, who went into the schools but disappeared--the real number is likely more than ten times that).

its the fundamental racism of anglo military capitalist culture. africans suffered, celts suffered others too numerous to count suffered, but no one suffered to the extent that natives of the americas and australis suffered. the racists have to keep up the attacks, or actually self examine, and they are not going to self examine.

ps greg f, f please f off

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:23 AM

Our dealings with the original Americans is indeed a sad chapter in our history.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 09:51 PM

I spoke with some of my native buddies over the past days and invited them to read this thread and maybe join in. With exception of some links, they were mostly saddened by the posts. Each of three said they would never post here or anywhere else because their and their fourfathers' experiences in trying to "talk" with white men were useless and could only lead to more trouble for them, personally or, perhaps, otherwise (paraphrasing).

I understand. And it saddens me. One guy in particular. He is a cutup... funny as hell! When he tears a strip off whites AND reds, he is a joy to listen to. His wisdom, often expressed in humour, is cutting to the core. Thread drift about to happen... I recall the first time I met him. I was working for his band as an engineer. He was a tour guide at "the land" and he explained that his bone vest (costume donned for the tourists) was made with gaps because proper warrior armour would be too hot... and not worth a shit against a rifle so his forefathers should have worn them like that so they would have been comfortable when they were shot by the Redcoats. Not funny at all, but it was when he told me on accounta he made it sound funny. Makes ya think, don't it?

Gee... this thread just saddens me. Even when I laugh.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 06:17 PM

From:GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 04:19 PM

gnu... tossd my cookie.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 05:59 PM

Interesting info on this Nebraska (once an inportant Bison area)historic site.


President Jackson and the Indian Removal Act:

The settlers, the natives and the treaties

Beef Moves to Nebraska to replace Bison:

The End of the Bison


Video:
Cattle replaces Bison-Nebraska

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 05:24 PM

Disconnected phrases and clumsy rhymes doth not a poem make.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 04:19 PM

Kendall... Spaw speaks the truth. I don't click on anything he posts. I have better things to not do.

Cranky old man, me? Not necessarily.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 04:08 PM

LOL....What's the matter Kendall? Can't figure out what Walky writes or what it ight be about or how it can be so impossibly bad? Or is it all three? For me it is definitely all three.........Additionally you can also ask what it has to do with anything but that's generally a given..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 03:14 PM

HUH?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 02:13 PM

My poem "Americans" - http://www.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse/blog/455408778

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:52 PM

Ok, Michael, let's call it a draw.If we ever meet, I'll buy you a Guinness.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 11:23 AM

"When you get to be a moderator you can make rules."

That's good to know.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 08:17 AM

Forget it, Kendall: these things happen. Start again, no hard feelings, eh?

Best
~Michael~

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 06:50 AM

Inape?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 06:43 AM

Don't sweat it, Gnu, it's all part of your inate charm. :-)

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 06:31 AM

I apologize for my over the top reaction. But I truly believe that a PM is "private".

I also believe... know... I have violated, in grave fashion, the OP with extreme thread drift and I apologize to all. Obviously, I was not thinking clearly and posted in a rash and unacceptable manner. I shall not post such anymore. MGM, I shall start a thread for that discussion as your questions deserve discussion and answers.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 06:26 AM

The name says it, man, PERSONAL MESSAGE.

Hey, I really am sorry this failure to communicate got out of hand. I'm on prednisone and having a struggle keeping the Kraken from getting loose.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:50 PM

Seriously, tho ~~ about the PM biz. Not by any means the first time that I have reported on the contents of a PM on the forum, in order to show how that bit of the argument was going. Nobody has ever objected before. If I receive a letter in the mail, or an email, I regard them as my property, at my discretion to make the contents public or not. My choosing to do so is not the same as anyone else trying to hack them. It had never even occurred to me that PMs were supposed to be governed by the same rules as the Secrets of the Confessional, as gnu appears to believe. Does anyone else think so? I should be glad to know, for future reference. I really am sorry to have caused gnu such apparent distress. Is it universal, or widely shared? I should genuinely like to know.

~M~

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:55 PM

Interesting article, Ed, as usual. Thanks.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:09 PM

I'll read that soon, ED.

For the moment... MGM... "gnu ~~ a pm is a piece of correspondence addressed to me. As the recipient, it is up to me to decide whether to make the contents public ~~ especially when the sender had put a note here on the open forum telling me to check my pm's., so it was no sort of secret to anyone that he had sent me one. He said, here, that he sent it to avoid a public row. The row was pretty public by then, wasn't it?"

Not fuckin likely! Get some manners! THAT is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE in any way shape or form. Besides the fact that you CANNOT prove it AND that, at that point, YOUR post becomes libel. I don't give two shits from Tuesday about ANYthing that was written by ANYone in a PM. I do care about the sanctity of PMs and the VERY serious breach of that trust which you committed. I again call for you to understand the serious transgression and apologize for same, sir, herein, in public as that is where YOU chose to take it. It is unethical, unwarranted, uncalled for, unwise and unacceptable... FULL STOP.

BTW... if this thread gets derailed because of this "spat", I will start another to address this abuse of confidentiality. I admire both of you but I can't abide any dirty shit no matter who it is. That ain't the way Mum raised me.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:39 PM

""How Globalization Nearly Exterminated the Buffalo""



Another perspective

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:30 PM

""Could someone please explain to me why threads started about Native Americans end up being filled with nastiness, anger and bitterness?""

I think it's called displaced feelings of guilt Lizzie, and they really don't like it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:26 PM

""Look, let's get some perspective here. The Indians did run Bison off a cliff. 100 of them according to Lewis & Clark, but, consider the number of Bison at that time, MILLIONS of them from sea to sea. The number thaT THEY KILLED IN THIS MANNER WAS MINUTE. And it was most certainly not for a "Steak dinner."""

Correct Cap'n! There are accounts by early settlers of single herds which took more than four DAYS to pass a fixed point, and there were hundreds of those.

The bison had no serious predators. Nothing that the population of Native Americans could have done would even keep up with the birth rate of those herds.

I posted the following earlier:

""Reading more of that Wiki article turns up the fact that they Reading more of that Wiki article turns up the fact that theyused every part of those buffalo, to make their clothing, footware, tools, utensils, bowstrings, ropes and even their tepees, drying the excess meat into pemmican for later consumption while on the move.""

It wasn't until the white men arrived in thousands and the buffalo hunters supplied them with food on an industrial basis, that buffalo were slaughtered in huge numbers, their hearts and tongues taken, and the rest left to rot, that the great herds were reduced almost to extinction.

Hard truth white folks, but truth nevertheless.

Don T.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:24 PM

If, there are Buffalo have wings (as claimed in the local tavern menu), couldn't they just fly over the rocks below?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:13 PM

Could someone please explain to me why threads started about Native Americans end up being filled with nastiness, anger and bitterness?

Look in the mirror, Liz.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 05:58 PM

pdq, I don't know how you know aqnything about the education of anyone here, but you are at least partly right. I consider MtheGM to be very intelligent. If I didn't, I would waste any time on him.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 05:47 PM

Regardless of your own interpretaion, the PMs are for the purpose of telling someone something that they don't want on the forum. When you get to be a moderator you can make rules. Until then... Go defecate in your chapeau.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 05:36 PM

Thank you, pdq.

gnu ~~ a pm is a piece of correspondence addressed to me. As the recipient, it is up to me to decide whether to make the contents public ~~ especially when the sender had put a note here on the open forum telling me to check my pm's., so it was no sort of secret to anyone that he had sent me one. He said, here, that he sent it to avoid a public row. The row was pretty public by then, wasn't it?

~M~

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:59 PM

Right on, 9. When two people are both right but it boils down to their perceptions of the other's words and their OWN words... ONE word subsequently misplaced or taken the wrong way can lead to havoc. Imagine!... two of the most respected Mudcatters are having a spat over a few words when they are both "right" in their own way.

Now, I can easily understand my spats over my time here but I plead the ignorance of youth. I could have pled "the grape" on some but I usually only do that the next day after I sober up and read back. Of course, I have usually simply apologized.

In any case, like I said above, I am glad this thread was started for whatever reason because many of the posts have eductaed many of us, myself included.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:24 PM

Two guys had a misunderstanding. They're both good men. Let THEM work it out. That's my opinion FWIW.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: pdq
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:09 PM

MtheGM is the most educated and erudite person who posts to Mudcat these days.

Many of us appreciate his contributions.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:04 PM

Lizzie... because there are so many people who THINK they know what happened and what goes on today that ain't got two clues about any of it but rely on the new media and their own perception of what they read. The truth about the past and the truth about the present are often a toss up for emotions instead of facts. That's why I had to leave past threads and that is why I may soon be out of this one.

BTW, if I am wrong about anything I post, educate me, anyone. I have never shied from the truth... but it HAS to be the truth.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:02 PM

What we have here is a failure to communicate. The Warden in the film Cool Hand Luke).

Gnu, I agree with everything you said.
("Never argue with someone whose opinion you don't respect"

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 02:55 PM

Could someone please explain to me why threads started about Native Americans end up being filled with nastiness, anger and bitterness?

Just askin'.......

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 02:51 PM

WHOA! I think there are more than enough posts in this thread to "explain" what MAY have happened with respect to the jumps and WHY.

First, could we all agree that anyone running animals over a jump was feeding and clothing themselves?

Second, could we all agree that running animals over a jump WAS the way to go?

Third, could we all agree that NO Native or white or purple would ever run a hundred animals over a jump if he needed one animal?

Fourth... could we all agree that anyone who thinks such a practice is an exact science is incorrect?

Fact is, even IF an overkill happened now and then, Red, White, Purple would not have been happy about it. They did not do it on purpose. But, it's better than going hungry, innit?

MtheGM... I don't know if I quite understand your problem with Kendall at the moment, but you have committed a cardinal sin... PMs are PMs. Your posting of what you say Kendall wrote to you in a Personal and Private Message is unacceptable. You, sir, should apologize to ALL readers, not just Kendall. Think about that. Me. I don't care... you should.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 02:45 PM

That's a joke, son. Grant never took Richmond.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 01:50 PM

OK big mouth, I sent you a pm to avoid a public row. You, on the other hand had to insult me on the forum.

Now, as I said, I don't care who said it, you repeated it and it was silly. You obviously lack the class to admit that I'm right. It takes a man to admit being wrong and you aint a man in my opinion.
I did not call YOU silly, nor did I suggest you learn to read or shut up.
So, go ahead and run your pedantic mouth some more. I'll take you like Grant took Richmond.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:14 PM

Checked my PM, K. Deleted your stupid aggressive message.

Now shut the hell up properly, you stupid little fool. I'm supposed to tremble in my boots at your threats am I? ~~


He threatened, everybody, that I shall 'live to regret locking horns with him'. Oh wow! Tremble tremble. The house is shaking. The cat is hiding terrified under the chair and my wife is in tears.

Did you ever in all your born days hear of anything so pathetic? Anyone?

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:56 AM

Gentlemen, don't shoot the messenger.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:49 AM

I'm on Prednisone.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:48 AM

If you have had enough, why don't YOU shut up?
Check your PM.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:43 AM

I repeated it with a disclaimer ~~ I added to the post

--I do not put these forward as clinching arguments ~~ I admit I haven't entirely researched the matter, just read 'Bury My Heart' &c, & my views are thus of necessity second-hand~~ but simply as points to consider. ---

So keep your spleen alive, if it makes you happier; but that seems a good enuf caveat to me that I didn't take the assertion seriously either. Just stop going on at me about it, because I am getting very bored, & you are not usually such a boring old fart, Kendall. Don't know what has got into you.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:43 AM

Look, let's get some perspective here. The Indians did run Bison off a cliff. 100 of them according to Lewis & Clark, but, consider the number of Bison at that time, MILLIONS of them from sea to sea. The number thaT THEY KILLED IN THIS MANNER WAS MINUTE. And it was most certainly not for a "Steak dinner."

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:34 AM

Hey, know it all, I don't care who said it originally, you repeated it and it is still silly.

Subject: RE: native americans took the land!!!!!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 08:53 AM

I implied nothing, Kendall. I simply quoted a work of literature. Learn to read or shut up.

Enuf awready.