BS: Champagne Question???

Subject: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:31 PM

Okay, let me be tghe first to tell ya' that what I know about this stuff wouldn't fill a thimble but...

...over the years (many) I've hauled around two bottles of champagne that was given to me by a couple of folks that never got opened...

One is called "Andre" and the other "Freixenet Brut"... They have just sat around collecting dust, not been chilled, opened or anything...

So my question is: are they still okay to serve??? I mean, we're invited to T-Giving at son-in-law's and if they are okay then I'll put 'um in the refrig and chill 'um down and take 'um...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:53 PM

The Andre's champagne is shit to begin with, so drink it and piss it back into the bottle because it will only improve the taste. The Freixenet is twice as good, so don't drink it first. Just make sure you hold the bottle at a 45 degree angle when you open it. And do so over a sink. If it doesn't taste good, pour it down the drain or save it to mix with Budweiser, a blend which will improve them both.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,Tiger
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:59 PM

The Andre was NEVER any good. Trust me.

The other was OK when new, but both will have deteriorated since you've had them.

If 'many years' for the Freixnet is 3 or less, you might take a chance. More than that, better stop at the liquor store on the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: pdq
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 08:02 PM

Lose the cheap Champaigne. It's all soda pop/junk.

I just thought of a new drink.

Pour 2/3 of glass of Glen Ellen Chardonay and add 1/3 Miller beer.

You get a Glen Miller, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 08:03 PM

My first thought on seeing this was, why would you ask this bunch about champagne

My second thought was, "I'll be damned,999 knows stuff about champagne" Forgive me 9s, but when I picture you, I don't picture you sipping Dom Filet Mignon or whatever you call it. : )

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 08:04 PM

Bobert, if kept cool (around 45F) it will keep for about 4 years if the bottles were stored on their sides.
Even the best vintage (big money stuff) won't keep more than about 10 years carefully tended in a wine cellar.

My suggestion- buy a couple of bottles of a wine your son-in-law likes, but take the old stuff along to try when you are just sitting around. Open it and sample- you never know, you could be lucky.

The wine guy (sommelier or however that is spelled) at a local top restaurant says one doesn't have to taste a wine to tell if it is OK. He draws the cork rapidly past his nose after he extracts it and if the odor is unpleasant, he replaces the bottle.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 08:07 PM

These bottles were 10 years old 10 years ago...

Guess I got my answer...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 08:36 PM

All is not lost. Pour both into a pot that has an invertible lid. Float a bowl in the 'champagne'. Cook. Add ice cubes to the lid. As the alcohol steams off it will condense on the lid and then drip into the bowl. Save that for a real bad hangover.

PS Turn off the heat and let it cool before decanting. Keep away from spark or flame.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 08:49 PM

I'm throwin' it away... Heck, they make darned good (and legal) moonshine here in NC... If is want a few drops of hair of the dog, I'll just go that way...

Garbage can, here we come...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:38 PM

Good decision, Bobert!

(Psst, technically to be champagne the grapes had to be grown in the Champagne region of France. What you have--or had, if you've already dumped it--is "sparkling wine" or "bubbly.") However, there are many sparkling wines that are as good or better than many kinds of champagne--but not if they are that old.)

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:45 PM

Go real cheap and lousy....Buy some Cold Duck. Good for sex and all......I have some instructions but I won't post them here.   

Cheap champagne makes a decent Mimosa because you're just going for the bubbly bits. Then again, is there really anything like a decent Mimosa?


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:49 PM

"Then again, is there really anything like a decent Mimosa?"

Room temperature Muscatel!

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:51 PM

Since Bobert's problem is dealt with, I'll ask some of you elitist snobs a question, just to see what you say. Of what little champagne that I've had when I've seen the label, I've liked Paul Maison extra dry fairly well. Does that make knowledgable folks go ewwww, and highlight my ignorance of any decent stuff, or?

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:54 PM

Yo, Spawz...

The P-Vine looks a 100 times better than the daughter-in-law... You want her??? Come fetch...

Oh, BTW, I gotta drive home and ain't into having sex with the P-Vine on the son's couch with the grand-youngins watching and me watchin' the football...

Pass on that...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:58 PM

"Of what little champagne that I've had when I've seen the label, I've liked Paul Maison extra dry fairly well."

I suspect you refer to Paul Masson, note spelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 10:09 PM

Do you mean Paul Masson?
Their sparkling wines weren't bad, a good California. Haven't seen it in a long time, thought the name was dead.

Do you mean Maison Paul of France? I have had a burgundy of theirs, which was good.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 10:12 PM

I suspect you're right; I don't know how a connasewer like me could have made a slip like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 10:29 PM

And Q may well be right as to the Paul Masson being history. My wife, as a brittle diabetic, doesn't drink more than a literal sip of wine on rare occasion, so we buy something alcoholic for cooking or gift about once a decade.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 10:32 PM

I remember Paul Masson... He was okay... Remember that double LP??? Seems to me that the LP had a marbled thing going??? No???

It was okay... I didn't buy it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 10:45 PM

The Paul Masson label is definitely still alive. I bought a jug of fairly cheap brandy with that name on it just a few days ago. Maybe they're running their old juice through the still to get rid of what they couldn't sell when the called it whine wine.

The bubbly stuff isn't popular enough to be in much demand 'mongst the rednecks here, and I can't recall whether I've ever seen a Paul Masson bubbly.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:55 PM

"and I can't recall whether I've ever seen a Paul Masson bubbly."

A few sips'll do that to ya, no offence.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 06:59 AM

I remember Maison Paul from a visit to a friend in Edinburgh. He had a case or two of red he said he got at an advantageous price. Dunno if they market in N. Am.

Glad to hear that Paul Masson (the alcohol) is still alive. It was good for the price.

My drinking days are almost gone. Wine when the children visit is the size of it.

And a bit of single malt now and then.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:31 AM

Oh, ya ~~ I remember Cold Duck: a sweetish sparkling red Californian served chilled IIRC. Drank some at a party while visiting Columbus Indiana in 1971; lived to tell the tale.

Or am I thinking of some other wine in some other city in some other year?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: pdq
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:34 AM

San Jose, California and the area around it was considered serious wine-producing territory at one time.

Almaden, Mirassou and Paul Masson were all started by French immigrants in the mid 1800s, Almaden is usually considered the oldest.

There are several small vineyards in the foothills surrounding Santa Clara County, aka Silicon Valley, but the valley floor has some of the highest real estate prices in the world and the only grapes grown are in people's yards.

The famous sales promotion featuring Orson Welles made Paul Masson a household name, but there is no way of knowing where the grapes came from. Small private outfits sell grapes to big companies which get mixed with grapes from corporation lands. All the wine and "champagne" is mass-produced, mostly in the Central Valley where land is cheap and the labor force can afford the cost of housing.

Paul Masson is owned by Seagrams, Almaden by Gallo, and Mirrassou by another large producer. Just names.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:44 PM

Wine group San Francisco now owns Paul Masson, according to info on the WWW.
Seagrams sold it off years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: pdq
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 02:00 PM

Seagrams owned Paul Masson during the Orson Wells era when it became a famous brand. I did not check recent changes. None of the three I mentioned is connected to the original families.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:09 PM

The "Freixnet" is a Spanish "champagne" now generally called a "Cava". Not likely to have survived the timespan you describe but worth trying a fresh bottle of it sometime! Much improved in recent years.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: pdq
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:44 PM

...got couple of 'em wrong...sheesh...research first, post second...

Gallo is a monster winemaker. They have 25% of the US market:


GALLO:
    * Alamos - distributor
    * Anapamu
    * Andre
    * Apothic Red
    * Barefoot Wine (as of 2005)
    * Ballatore
    * Bartles & Jaymes
    * Bella Sera
    * Black Swan
    * Boone's Farm
    * Bridlewood
    * Carlo Rossi
    * Cask & Cream
    * Clarendon Hills
    * Dancing Bull
    * DaVinci
    * Don Miguel Gascon
    * E & J Brandy
    * Ecco Domani
    * Frei Brothers
    * Frutézia
    * Gallo
    * Ghost Pines
    * Hornsby's
    * Indigo Hills
    * Liberty Creek
    * Livingston Cellars
    * Louis M. Martini
    * MacMurray Ranch
    * Marcelina
    * Mart?n Cõdax
    * Maso Canali
    * Matthew Fox Vineyards (since 2004)
    * Mattie's Perch
    * McWilliam's
    * Mirassou Vineyards
    * New Amsterdam Gin
    * Night Train
    * Peter Vella
    * Pölka Dot
    * Rancho Zabaco
    * Red Bicyclette
    * Redwood Creek
    * Red Rock Winery
    * Sebeka
    * Thunderbird
    * Tisdale Vineyards
    * Turning Leaf
    * Twin Valley
    * Whitehaven
    * William Hill Estate
    * Wild Vines
    * Winking Owl
    * Wycliff Sparkling

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:23 PM

Fun to drink, but a terrible price for alcoholic lemonade...

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: gnu
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:43 PM

Throw out booze?

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 07:45 PM

Many years ago, c. 1940, I remember we would get a couple of bucks together and have an older delinquent buy a gallon of Gallo for us.

But the Gallos got good vines and good land and started making wines that took medals internationally. They still produce a lot of plonk, however (Andre, etc.).
A big umbrella for a lot of wineries.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 07:57 PM

Prosecco. Gentler than Cava, cheaper and more cheery than champers. We could get chilled draught Prosecco frizzante for €2.50 for a litre in Venice, decanted into a plastic bottle (had to run back to the hotel and drink it fast before it warmed up - poor us). I try to buy it here on offer for no more than a fiver. It's never bad. ASDA's vintage Cava is bloody good, especially when it's on offer for about six quid or less. The joy comes in never paying the proper price.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:11 PM

Well Bobster, all the guys like you and I can do is the shine test
shake it and see if there are little or big bubbles .... that's about all I can say on that one ...

does it come in a jelly jar brewed in some mountain stream? If not I don't think our tests will work well .. but at least we know how to pick good shine

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:46 PM

I seem to have recollection of a song from some long-ago time called "Bubbles in the Wine" or something like that, but maybe it was "Bubbles in the Shine" and some singer just did a cover and got it wrong.

Seems vaguely like maybe it was from the Mafia Sinatra era or around then... (?).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: olddude
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:50 PM

LOL John
as always you are right LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: pdq
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:55 PM

"Bubbles in the Wine" was written by Frank Loesser and recorded by Lawrence Welk in 1948.

Unless you are talking about "Tiny Bubbles" sung by Don Ho.

Don Ho was not the first to record that song but he had a huge hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: olddude
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:01 PM

Tiny bubbles is best in shine as Bobster will tell ya. Now as far as that french stuff ... dunno

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:01 PM

I thank y'all for a 'first' experience. Never been on a thread with winos before. The Bowery, yes; a few back alleys, yes; some jails, yes, but never a thread. Yous guys are classy.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:31 PM

Bruce ... can't stop laughing, I will pass the jelly jar to ya

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:11 PM

If it doesn't have the residue of shoe polish, it ain't worth squat!

I know lots about winos because I spent some time with the aforementioned in the aforementioned. It's a tough life, and often a short one for those so afflicted. I met philosophers, charitable people, blues singer, scuz and scum. Even a few failed politicians, mostly Republicans. However, they were people who still cared about others even if they put their bottles first. Ain't no such thing as champagne. It's just a fancy French word for bad grape juice. imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:28 PM

Steve Shaw, if you get back to Venice, or anyone else who gets there, you might try a glass or bottle of another sparkling wine: fragolino http://italychronicles.com/fragolino-time/ I would like to try some.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 02:07 PM

Never heard of that one, but if you promise me it isn't sweet I'll give it a whirl sometime!

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:27 PM

Andre is the champagne equivalent of Boone's Farm.
Gross. Dump it along with vinegar in the other bottle.

Jacqui and I shared a bottle of something good I bought for Thanksgiving but for the life of me I don't remember the label.
heh heh

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:02 PM

if in ya drink enough of it, don't matter what the label says

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 11:46 PM

Steve, I imagine that fragolino is sweet, but I'll probably never be able to judge how sweet for myself. I first read about it in Donna Leon's mystery, Death at La Fenice. Her main character, Guido Brunetti, send his daughter into the kitchen to get him some wine (prosecco, I think). She says her mother told her it was gone and sent her out with the fragolino instead, which Brunetti seems to like. At least that's how I remember that part of the book. It was a library book, so I can't check it. Anyway, that aroused my curiosity, so I googled it to find out if it was the wine was real.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:46 PM

Fragolino named for the strawberry flavor. It is an American vine, hence the prohibition ("illegal"). However, "fragolino" is sold in Italian stores according to www article, dunno anything about it.

My local specialist wino shop doesn't sell it.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: EBarnacle
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 09:42 AM

Many years ago, I was given a bottle of Vueve Clicquot. I stashed it very carefully on its side in a dark, cool closet. It was being saved for a worthy occasion. When the occasion came, I went to the bottle to enjoy it and found that the cork had rotted, leaking most of the contents onto the wooden floor and forming a sticky mess.

Drink it fresh and really enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 09:59 AM

All need not be lost if you follow the advice of Emil Savundra, who was admittedly convicted of fraud. However, his autobiography suggests that you buy the highest quality crystal decanter you can afford. After that, you can fill it with the cheapest whiskey and no-one will notice. You can see the same effect used on wine labels in any off-licence. So have a look for some good label photos you can print off. Just don't try to sell them afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:12 PM

I've been to two local wine stores and nobody at either had heard of fragolino!

DMcG, your whiskey tip is one I've used when I've had lunch or dinner guests and couldn't spend a lot of money or prep time on food. I would serve omelets, savory crepes, and fettuccine Alfredo on china plates. I also put the fettuccine in a pretty soup tureen. Even though the food wasn't special, I knew the presentation was!

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 07:12 PM

Which? magazine has just declared that Sainsbury's Blanc de Noir champers is the best value. I can vouch for how good it is. Three bottles of it per annum: my birthday, 'er birthday and crimble!

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,Pork sausage Mike
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 04:16 PM

Am I the only guy that doesn't like champagne? I can't drink the stuff yet at the occasional function I attend everyone seems to be swanning around with a glassful and ...hello darling...Give me a glass of Shlur apple juice any day.
PSM

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 05:37 PM

Taste the Freixenet...if it's vinegar, keep it. Champagne-type wines make a very nice tasting vinegar and the vinegar lasts along time. I'm still using a 35-year-old bottle of champagne vinegar.

I like Freixenet (black label). It's a reasonably enjoyable bubble water that's fairly inexpensive. If you can find the green labelled Freixenet with the vintage year on it, GRAB IT! Good stuff. Only found it once.

Andre is pipi du chat, only not as fancy. Probably best used as a paper weight.

Tom and I have two anniversaries. Our wedding anniversary is in June and our "Other Anniversary" in December, which is a double anniversary of the night we met and the night a year later when we decided to get married (Tom never actually asked me to marry him...we just found ourselves planning the wedding). We celebrate each with a bottle of champagne or methode champenoise and date and save the corks which we used to hang on the Christmas tree. A couple of good years (financially) we had Perrier Jouey 'Fleur de Champagne'(which cost a lot less back in those days -- it's wildly out of our price range now) and in less financially comfortable years we have Freixenet. Sometimes on a sliding scale in between. I'm thinking this year is probably Freixenet, especially since I have a bottle in the fridge. Hmmm...maybe we'll drink Black Velvets since we have some Guinness, too.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 07:15 PM

Pork sausage Mike, you may just have better taste buds than everybody else--the truth of the matter is that most of the "Champagne" served for toasts at events of one kind or another is not very good at all. This includes the above mentioned Andre, Korbel, and even the Freixnet(sorry, guys..). Even a lot sort of big ticket stuff isn't that good, and people still lap it up--the fancy bottle trick, mentioned above, seems to be what sells most Champagne--

That said, if you want decent champagne(and not just something cheap to toast a wedding that looks pretty shaky, anyway), go to a good wine shop(one where they know what their talking about)and ask them what they've got that's good and not very expensive. If they look down their nose, go somewhere else. If their eyes light up, listen up.

Also, look for Cremonts; they are French methode champenoise wines, that don't come from the Champagne region, and can't be called "Champagne" any more; they tend to be a lot less expensive, and can be just as good(you'll get instant respect if you ask for them, too!)

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 07:21 PM

Also, it's only good if you like it. If you don't, have a beer, or seltzer with white grape juice.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:03 PM

Sainsbury's Blanc de Noir champers is lovely stuff. It's normally around twenty quid but there's 25% off all wines including champagne (mix 'n' match) until this weekend. I'm only telling you this now because I've bought what I want for Christmas. Go for it! If you can't afford even one bottle of champers, they're doing two really good Proseccos for just over a fiver if you do the six-bottle deal. Nirvana!

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:52 AM

You do have to taste a few to discover which you like and which don't get house room.

Back when we were a bit more flush, Tom and I worked our way through some of the more expensive bubbly (the Perrier Jouey 'Fleur de Champagne' being the most pricey -- gawd, if I had bucks, I could drink that stuff by the six-pack!) as well as the mid-range.

One discovery was that Mumm's Cordon Rouge is waaaaaaay over-rated and over-priced. Too sweet and I really just didn't like it. (Would rather drink Friexenet (sorry, Stim).

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 10:30 AM

Drink what you like, Bat Goddess...I'm not selling anything. If you like champagne(a more expensive taste, I grant, than, say, herbal teas) there are lots of choices, often more choices than you can really deal with. It's complicated by the fact that the same wine, made from the same grapes, by the same process, in the same region, can taste different, depending on who made it. On the other hand, not everyone tastes the difference, and even those that can forget after the first bottle or two;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 01:05 PM

Am I the only guy that doesn't like champagne? I can't drink the stuff

I hope it doesn't sound too pretentious, but I find cheap champagne awful, but like the better stuff. Given the choice between a cheapish champagne (say £20 or less at off-licence or supermarket prices) and a bottle of white for under £3, I'd go with the cheap white every time.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 02:20 PM

Wel, DMcG, you really ought to give Sainsbury's Blanc de Noir a whirl. It's around twenty quid but can be had this week for around fifteen. The Blanc de Blancs is nearly as good and can be had this this week for about twelve quid on the mix 'n' match any six bottles of wine offer (you can include your three-quid white cheapies in the deal - try their House Soave, or, a little perkier, the House Muscadet). Those two champers knock the big marques at £30-odd plus into a cocked hat. But you won't know till you try!

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 06:00 PM

Surprised that French wines seem to cost more in the UK than here in the US. I can get Veuve Clicquot for just a bit more than your Sainsbury's Blanc De Noir--or could if I wasn't so fastidious about paying my electric bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 07:13 PM

French wines are fighting back a bit here after years of doldrums and insipid quality, at least at my end of things (very low, I assure you). And you can get pretty decent Rioja for not too many pounds these days, but I reckon the best value comes from Italy. The Piccini family's Montepulciano d'Abruzzo and Chianti Riserva, and the Torretta end of the Mondelli brand, are bloody good value these days. And I've never had a duff bottle of Prosecco either, though nothing to surpass the draught Prosecco frizzante that you could buy by the litre, chilled, in Venice, in a plastic bottle, for €2.50. :-) You do have to run back to your hotel room and drink it fast, though (nothing wrong with the plastic toothbrush mugs unless you're a snob), before it warms up. The minibar fridge is far from man enough. Sets two of you up for a good night out, that does (and for what's to follow, if you're lucky...)

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: gnomad
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 07:19 PM

Stim: I don't know how heavily the States will tax French wine (I expect it varies by State) but the combined tax, and duty, and tax on duty, amounts to quite a mark-up here in the UK. That probably accounts for much of the difference.

Wine & Spirit Trade Assn site has details to dismay or please you, depending on your viewpoint.

Like PSM I have no fondness for Champagne, sparklers just don't light my candle. I'll drink them out of politeness, of course, but wouldn't actually choose one for myself. I will happily consume many another wine, and have tasted both the sublime and those that could be used for battery acid. Most would be preferable to even the best Champagne that I have tried (IMO, of course).

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 06:30 AM

Agreed about Prosecco, which is a proper, naturally made wine as against Champagne, which isn't.

Most Champagne is made from a base of very thin and sour wine, doctored by the house to become excellent or less so depending on how much work the house does on it. This is principally because Champagne is way too far north to allow grapes to fully ripen, even if they enjoyed good weather, which they don't. So even the best grapes (Chardonnay and Pinot Noir) won't produce good wine - as in soooo many other countries, though for different reasons!

The Veneto (the only geographical area allowed to call their wines Prosecco) by comparison, is much further south and not so high as to stop the grapes ripening. Though Prosecco is seen by northern Europeans as "a cheap version of Champagne", the better Proseccos are much better than that. Different certainly, and definitely not trying to imitate Champagne as the difference is significant.

I drink lots of Prosecco. My best is some that I bought direct from the producer in the Valdobbiadene Conegliano region which is truly excellent and set me back about €10 a bottle. Down the hill a bit at Treviso the wines are lower in quality and price.

Our normal "house" Prosecco comes from Lidl who have just put their price up to over €5. It's from Valdobbiadene Conegliano and is really quite good.

The big threat to Prosecco is that get-rich-quick firms in UK and USA will market the hell out of it to make it popular with a gullible public, then the big producers in the Veneto will put their prices up and ruin it for us all.

Cin cin
g

Subject: RE: BS: Champagne Question???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 09:47 AM

Actually, you could argue that champagne is much more natural than Prosecco. The former is made by a traditional method in which the conditioning is entirely generated in the bottle by adding a carefully-measured amount of sweetness back to the fermented wine in each bottle. The bottle is then gradually inverted to get the sediment to settle above the stopper. The neck is then frozen so that a plug of sediment can be removed, and a new, wired cork inserted. Cava is made in the same way. Prosecco is fermented like other wines in large stainless steel vessels and has the fizz artificially added at the bottling stage. Nothing wrong with that, but it is definitely the modern way, not the most "natural".

I find Prosecco to be a milder drink that either Cava or champagne, with more emphasis on orchard fruit flavours and less on lively acidity. The quality is nearly always good, even at the bargain basement end. I do like those you mention, though.