Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 08 Nov 24 - 03:49 AM Israel's economy is tanking, with foreign investment dried up, more than 85,000 people dropping out of the workforce and 250,000 more who have been displaced internally and lost both their jobs and their houses, and 46,000 business bankruptcies. The attacks on Gaza have cost Israel $67 billion so far. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 07 Nov 24 - 08:30 AM Piece from the Guardian quoting Israeli-American historian Omer Bartov, professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown, on whether what is happening in Gaza is a genocide. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 07 Nov 24 - 08:18 AM Israel killed 40 since dawn in Lebanon (BBC World Service news has upgraded that to 55), and 27 in Gaza, as well as injuring UNIFIL observers in a targeted strike which killed three people in Lebanon. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:49 PM Land grab: Israeli ground forces are getting closer to “the complete evacuation” of northern Gaza and residents will not be allowed to return home, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has said, in what appears to be the first official acknowledgment from Israel it is systematically removing Palestinians from the area. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:38 PM Presumably a tiny few are human in Lebanon too, like these “The first victim I found was a child. I don't know if it's a girl or a boy,” he tells me afterwards. “Sorry to explain that. But it's from the stomach and up - from stomach and down there is nothing.” In the past, the CDF crew have received phone calls telling them to evacuate a site they are attending. They assume they are from the Israelis. No such call comes on this day, so for an hour Samir and others dig deeper into the ruin. Eventually they find a 10-year-old girl alive. She tells the rescuers that her eight-month-old brother, Mohammed, was next to her. “After that, we started hearing the screaming of a small child,” Samir says. and the 50 children killed last week in Gaza, and the babies who died alone in hospital after a forced evacuation this time last year. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: robomatic Date: 06 Nov 24 - 01:00 PM I think the really smart foreign leaders have recognized TRMP's ability to turn inside the radius of a dime in a fraction of a second. Also his tendency to let down / blackmail those who depend on him. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 Nov 24 - 10:40 AM ”In a broadcast on 6 May, Neuman said: “A tiny few of them can be deemed human there. Ninety per cent are terrorists and ‘involved’!” That sounds chillingly familiar - a common trope in 1930s/1940s Germany. Hopefully someone will have that comment on record when the leaders of the Israeli regime are tried in The Hague. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Nov 24 - 07:00 AM On Nov. 6 Netanyahu got exactly what he wanted - Trump in office. That means he won't be stifled by the US (after Biden) - and will probably be able to keep himself out of prison. Both Trump and Biden had a common interest in keeping that war going. Still do. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 03 Nov 24 - 08:25 AM Watching a country disintegrate: Haaretz reporting that Eran Etzion, a former deputy head of Israel's National Security Council, is calling on Israeli soldiers to refuse illegal orders. And the Guardian is reporting on legal complaints against an increasingly popular nationalist TV channel: Among the examples presented in the legal complaint is a Channel 14 anchor threatening the “annihilation” of Palestinians, killing “numbers not seen before in Arab history”. Another presenter, Shimon Riklin, said on 7 October of Palestinians in Gaza: “We should supply them with neither water nor electricity. Let them drop dead in there!” and tweeted: “Gaza should be wiped off the face of the earth.” Danny Neuman, a member of Netanyahu’s Likud party and a regular Channel 14 panellist, said: “We should have killed 100,000 Gazans in the first two days.” In a broadcast on 6 May, Neuman said: “A tiny few of them can be deemed human there. Ninety per cent are terrorists and ‘involved’!” |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 03 Nov 24 - 07:46 AM 50 children killed in 48 hours by Israel in attacks on apartment blocks in Gaza. UNICEF warns that the entire population of the region, especially children, is at imminent risk of dying from disease, famine and ongoing bombardment. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 01 Nov 24 - 06:38 AM 47 more people killed today, mostly women and children. The Israeli military said its troops had identified and eliminated "several armed terrorists" in central Gaza and had eliminated "dozens of terrorists" in targeted raids in northern Gaza's Jabalia area. Meanwhile from last April, Mass graves in Gaza show victims’ hands were tied, says UN rights office |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 31 Oct 24 - 05:55 AM A reporter. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 30 Oct 24 - 04:39 PM America is now in the news for trying to broker "a temporary ceasefire" in Lebanon and Gaza. Why temporary? Does the US consider that it'd be a good thing for the killing of children and the destruction of towns (spreading asbestos which of course can blow inland to Israel too, causing hideous deaths by asbestosis) to continue after a bit of a breather? |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 29 Oct 24 - 07:40 PM Five more journalists killed, and a block of flats levelled with nearly 100 slaughtered. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Oct 24 - 02:55 PM Good song. Thanks. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 29 Oct 24 - 02:19 PM Thank you Donuel. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Donuel Date: 29 Oct 24 - 02:05 PM Supurb Big Al. May your underground stardom see the light, I know you do. Your chords embody the spirit of your words. I foresee an album of surprises in your future. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 29 Oct 24 - 01:14 PM https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/eyeless-in-gaza-song |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Oct 24 - 11:07 AM Palestine has oil and gas? Had to look that up. All of this, of course, is aspirational. Right now, it’s downright impossible. Though the U.S. is reportedly pushing Israel to allow Palestinians to profit and build an independent energy system from offshore gas post-war, under Israeli occupation, Palestinians cannot drill for oil and gas. Many communities are not allowed to build out solar energy, either. Israel, on the other hand, hasn’t wasted time in claiming these dirty resources for itself. On October 29, its government approved 12 licenses for six companies to look for more gas fields offshore. All the more reason for Netanyahu to hope Trump is elected, because the Democrats are trying to enact cleaner energy policies. Trump couldn't care less, as is shown with the land he removed from federal protections when he was in office before. So if you want to blame the war on someone, blame it on Trump, a pawn for so many bad actors, not the US writ large. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Donuel Date: 29 Oct 24 - 10:53 AM No Jack. Every tribe had its day and its dark night. Who suffers most is not the only determination of the most righteous. In 1945 the Germans may have suffered the most. Everyone suffers in war. I would agree with Stilly's last post. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Jack Campin Date: 29 Oct 24 - 10:27 AM The one making the gamble is the US. They want Palestine's oil and gas, and the land to build the Ben-Gurion canal so they can bypass Egypt. They are betting that their rabid rottweiler garrison state can last long enough to achieve that. Netanyahu, Bennett, Smotrich and the gang are just footsoldiers - the American petrocracy will make sure that Harris or Trump will carry on taking orders no matter who the voters think they've chosen. Hassan Nasrallah had it right. Getting angry at Israel is just silly. America is the enemy of humanity. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Oct 24 - 09:52 AM Israel's latest massacre, Jack. We can argue all day long about whether the US should or shouldn't arm Israel (it was my understanding that the type of weapons sent in the last 6-9 months are different than what has been used against Palestinians, so they can't be used against Palestinians) but no one in the US gave instructions to bomb anywhere. And many of us have hope that once the US election is over Biden will finally dope-slap Netanyahu and compel some compliance with his wishes that they form a cease fire. Netanyahu has made a calculation about the US election - if Trump is elected, nothing bad happens to him. If he misbehaves and kills Palestinians he satisfies his hard right coalition partners and stays out of jail. Once it ends and his government is dissolved he is bound to end up with his trials completed and a prison sentence, so why not keep the war going? |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Jack Campin Date: 29 Oct 24 - 09:17 AM America's latest massacre. I tried posting a video (minimally edited, taken directly on the spot) from Reddit to FB and immediately got my account suspended. You might get away with passing on the Guardian's version. Beit Lahiya, over 90 murdered |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 26 Oct 24 - 10:45 AM Those are the more reasonable ones they should have zeroed in on to begin with. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 26 Oct 24 - 05:16 AM Have to say I see nothing wrong with attacking missile launch bases. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: robomatic Date: 26 Oct 24 - 01:55 AM Last night (24 October 2024) was Simchat Torah. This is one year by the Hebrew calendar from the attack by Iran's proxy terror organization Hamas. People are wondering if the timing is related to the current attacks that are apparently taking place on and in Iran. According to NBC news the US was informed that Iran's nuclear sites and oil production would not be directly attacked. (Proportional response?) Only a couple days ago there was a story that details had been leaked of Israeli plans against Iran as a response to Iran's massive rocket attack a few weeks ago. It was not clear to me how much of that story was released as opposed to planted. But there are apparently real attacks going on right now. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 25 Oct 24 - 05:39 AM Further: "Local news station Al Jadeed aired footage from the scene — a collection of chalets that had been rented by various media outlets — showing collapsed buildings and cars marked "press" covered in dust and rubble." |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 25 Oct 24 - 04:48 AM Israel's war against free speech continues: three journalists covering Israel’s war on Lebanon were killed today in an apparent targeted Israeli strike on their accommodation in Lebanon’s southern Hasbaiyya area. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: robomatic Date: 24 Oct 24 - 05:00 PM I don't know whether we have any Islamic/ Palestinian folks in the forum, particularly whether they live in the 'battleground' State of Michigan, but I'm curious as to their election thinking. There have been some national news selected questioning of voters as to their thinking and apparently many have answered that they are anti-Biden and by extension anti-Harris, regardless of their perception of TRMP as perhaps more unreservedly pro-Israel and anti-Muslim, based on his Presidential track record 2016-2020. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 24 Oct 24 - 02:51 AM Today: ‘Escalating violence’ in northern Gaza has led to postponement of polio vaccines to more than 100,000 children. People are camping on rubble where sewage flows, and in which analysis has found polio microbes… Al Jazeera: 173 journalists have been killed so far by Israel in Gaza. Committee to Protect Journalists says 128 killings of journalists have been confirmed; "Journalists in Gaza face particularly high risks as they try to cover the conflict, including devastating Israeli airstrikes, famine, the displacement of 90% of Gaza’s population, and the destruction of 80% of its buildings. CPJ is investigating more than 130 additional cases of potential killings, arrests and injuries, but many are difficult to document amid these harsh conditions." Meanwhile in Lebanon "what we can see is very similar to what we saw in Gaza during October and November. More and more hospitals are being put out of service by being targeted by the Israelis. The Lebanese health system has lost eight hospitals so far and the wounded are similar to those we saw in Gaza. People who are crushed underneath the rubble, people who are injured in their homes. Around a third of the wounded are children. Blast injuries, crush injuries, shrapnel wounds." |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: robomatic Date: 23 Oct 24 - 03:07 PM Early on in this recent conflict I recall mentioning that Israel bombed the hell out of Southern Lebanon in 2006. Just saying. This stuff keeps happening again and again, and let's not forget that Lebanon bombed the hell out of their own selves with the ineffective government allowing a massive store of fertilizer to catch fire, then detonate. It's almost as if you need to keep a war on to limit their ability to destroy themselves. Their Syrian/ Iranian masters did nothing to render any superior oversight in this matter, BTW. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 23 Oct 24 - 02:19 PM Post your links and I can turn them to hot links. The new shift to Israel blowing Lebanon to wee bits (where Iran has proxy stuff going on with Hezbollah) is just making it all that much harder to sort out. Netanyahu needs a colossal dope slap and his weapons cut off. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 23 Oct 24 - 12:21 PM But in the late Dervla Murphy's book about Gaza (if I'm remembering it accurately) she refers to tunnels being built to smuggle in goods, to circumvent the Israeli sanctions? She's pretty damning about Hamas, though. Surely you don't think the mass murder of civilians that's going on is anything to do with defeating Hamas? (The reason Al Jazeera is the only on-the-spot witness is the targeting of journalists; 173 killed by Israel according to Al-Jazeera, or 128 according to the Committee to Protect Journalists.) In today's news, the UN says it could take 350 years to rebuild Gaza's economy. No links for these because the Blickifier isn't working. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: robomatic Date: 22 Oct 24 - 02:07 PM Thank you in return for YOUR civility in return. This was the first and so far only vid from the site, which I watched because my brother told me to. He and his family are very antithetical to the violence going on, whereas I am both aggressively depressed and extremely pissed off at the same time, and have to limit my exposure at this time, to the Middle East, Ukraine, and practically all American politics. Last night I went to a fund raiser for our (lone) Democratic Representative, who is fighting a hard battle to retain her position. She appeared and practically apologized for the state of the campaign but she emphasized how hard fought it was and still is due to the extremely narrow margin of Reps in the House and she accurately descibed it as a 'dogfight' which I think encapsulates our politics in general these days, and to be fair, the positive aspect of it all is that it is hard fighting but it IS (still) democratic. It reminds me of a line from the excellent BBC series "I Claudius" where a historian tells one of the tyrants (played by Patrick Stewart) how it is too bad that mankind lost their sense of smell. So now I have two things to apologize to dogs about. Among the things that Gur says, well within the first half of my re-watching, is that Hamas spent Palestinians' taxes on the very involved tunnel network which civilians are not allowed to enter, and is designed to protect Hamas. The civilian deaths are a plus, because they are martyrs. Hamas would have no problem if there were more. (Remember he is talking last May). Gur folds in his understanding of Hamas' ideological viewpoint as distinct from other Islamic viewpoints, but not as militant. In particular he mentioned that there are Islamists who disdain Hamas because if Islam is correct and Allah is true, all Jews and Christians everywhere will come to Allah and Islam, and coexistence could be such a path. If Hamas is not vanquished and SEEN to be vanquished, they will be perceived by Gazans and everybody else as victors. This can be bad for a lot more than Israel. He compared the struggle to contain ISIS, which he interprets as a victory that took five years, with the best that can be hoped for against Hamas. As opposed to the 20 year struggle against the Taliban, which was a failure. (He is well aware of the argument that you can't kill an idea BTW but he is talking about modus vivendi). He feels that the Palestinians have been grievously wornged and have rights that are unaddressed, but I don't recall any specifics. I don't recall any observations about the West Bank, either. He does go into the history of Zionism and the origins of the violence, and the larger issue of the current Islamic world concerned with its overall weakness. For instance, when the English basically took over Egypt, the locals said to themselves, "Hey, we're dominated by the most powerful nation on earth, they walked all over the Ottomans so it must be Allah's will." But when they observed nascent Zionism they reacted: "These are weakest of the weak, how do they fit in with Allah's plan?" He also distinguishes between the viewpoints of the Islamic elites and the man in the street as to coexistence. Having written this I'm reluctant to reduce it to stuff I probably imperfectly understand, and this by no means summarizes Gur. But here y'are. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 22 Oct 24 - 12:41 PM The only media source with journalists actually broadcasting from Gaza is Al Jazeera; you can watch its live feed here. (It's not all about Gaza; at time of posting it's showing a programme about South America and climate change danger.) |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 22 Oct 24 - 11:06 AM It's possible to share videos at particular times throughout, so if there is anything particularly clear (or that is disagreed with and needs discussion) then sharing that would be one start. Finding 90 minutes to listen is probably not going to happen this week. But thanks for being patient about push back. The introduction struck me more the way Thompson made note of. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: robomatic Date: 22 Oct 24 - 07:01 AM Yeah, the interview is 90 minutes and you have no idea. I'm listening to it all over again. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Oct 24 - 06:51 AM ”I find it hard to believe that stopping killing would be bad for anyone.” Amen to that, Thompson! |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 22 Oct 24 - 03:41 AM Haviv Rettig Gur seems to be an expert on Zionism and Israel, rather than on Palestinian issues. I find it hard to believe that stopping killing would be bad for anyone. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Oct 24 - 01:57 AM ”Gur disagrees strongly with my call for a ceasefire, and his arguments are the best I’ve heard. He spoke at length about how a ceasefire would harm Palestinians more than Israelis” Reminds me of the classic ‘logic’ of the father thrashing his kid with his belt - “I’m doing this for your own good, it’s hurting me more than it hurts you”. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: robomatic Date: 22 Oct 24 - 12:25 AM SRS: In fairness to me, he has a characteristic way of speaking that I cannot match, and a view that is not easy for me to synopsize. In fairness to YOU, the 4 minutes taken to introduce him are the slowest in the whole interview, and Gur's time goes much faster than you'd think. He's like the guy who just landed from the war and takes over the conversation and keeps promising to stop talking but no one asks him to stop talking. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Oct 24 - 11:19 PM That's a very long interview. Can you give us a few of his talking points? Starting with how a ceasefire would be harmful to Palestinians. In comparison to what? (There's a transcript but the way it displays is almost unreadable or I'd try searching it.) I spoke with Haviv Gur, an Israeli analyst who — in my humble opinion — is one of the deepest thinkers covering Israel, Palestine, and the conflict between the two. Gur disagrees strongly with my call for a ceasefire, and his arguments are the best I’ve heard. He spoke at length about how a ceasefire would harm Palestinians more than Israelis, the issues motivating Hamas, the state of Islam in the region, the current dynamics of the war, what the Palestinians are owed, and how we might get to a more positive, constructive future for Israelis and Palestinians alike. It was a long, thoughtful, challenging conversation. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: robomatic Date: 21 Oct 24 - 07:19 PM Listening to this now: It is long, somewhat insightful, dates from May 2024: A Conversation About Israel/ Palestine- Isaac talks with Haviv Gur It is with an Israeli, Haviv Gur, with knowledge of the philosophies of more than one side. A few choice observations on the personality of Hamas members and the recently killed Yahya Sinwar. This is unlikely to change your opinion, but will likely help you orient your opinion with some of the complexities of the situation and some of the enfolding history. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Oct 24 - 07:02 PM You think all of those squatters are going to give up quietly? |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 21 Oct 24 - 01:29 PM Tough to be required to give back stolen goods? Wouldn't have thought so. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Oct 24 - 11:40 AM The only way it would work is for Israel to retreat to the original borders and give back all of the land "settlers" squat on. That's a tough one also. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 21 Oct 24 - 10:07 AM Israel making a hames of the Geneva Conventions, using Palestinians as human shields. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 21 Oct 24 - 02:51 AM "A two-state solution" has always meant Palestinians living effectively in prison camps guarded by Israeli troops, with checkpoints and Israeli rules on who can go in and out. This isn't going to work now. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Stilly River Sage Date: 20 Oct 24 - 09:25 PM This is a hot topic in American politics right now. I listened to an interview with a Michigan lawmaker from Dearborn on the radio - they are experiencing the proverbial "rock and a hard spot" (the scholar in me wants to also point out these would be Scylla and Charybdis). And the person being interviewed even referred to "Israel" in a way to suggest he thinks it doesn't belong there at all - so there is a lot of heat under the light we're seeing about that political turmoil. Harris has said she supports a two-state solution, but as long as the Israeli government is resisting it, I don't know that there is enough pressure to put to bear to make it happen. After the election if Biden stops the weapons completely (he gave them a 30-day notice that expires one week after the election) maybe Netanyahu will shift, but the Israeli far right will then disassemble the government. So of course this is happening during the American Presidential election season because Netanyahu hopes to come out ahead by continuing the war or gaining Trump's support. Oy. |
Subject: RE: BS: Israel & Hamas & gaza strip 2024 From: Thompson Date: 20 Oct 24 - 04:45 AM Starving since the day he was born: a baby dies in Gaza. 73 people also died in another air strike. |