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Tune Req: Metrical index of folk tunes

GUEST,Chis 24 Nov 12 - 11:15 AM
Jack Campin 24 Nov 12 - 11:28 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 24 Nov 12 - 12:19 PM
GUEST 24 Nov 12 - 12:40 PM
John MacKenzie 24 Nov 12 - 01:15 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 24 Nov 12 - 02:06 PM
dick greenhaus 24 Nov 12 - 06:16 PM
JohnInKansas 25 Nov 12 - 02:08 AM
Jack Campin 25 Nov 12 - 08:02 AM
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Subject: Tune Req: Metrical index of folk tunes
From: GUEST,Chis
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:15 AM

Does anyone know of an online metrical index of folk tunes? Thanks


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Metrical index of olk tunes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:28 AM

There is an on-line scanned copy of an early edition of the 19th century French "Le Clé du Caveau". I don't know of anything comparable for secular songs in English.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Metrical index of olk tunes
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:19 PM

It's been mentioned before (see eg Fitting words to music). It wouldn't be too hard to do; there are algorithm for getting syllables from English words fairly accurately. I implemented one to do preliminary matching of lyrics to tunes - preliminary because sometimes a syllable stretches over several notes in a tune so you need to check afterwards. (The method used a Turing machine with 17 rules to process the word. The rules were things like: if the current character is a consonant and current state is q0 then move 1 character to the right and set the state to q1).

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Metrical index of olk tunes
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:40 PM

Mick, I know the meter of my words - finding the meter of a tune should be much more straightforward shouldn't it? Just count the notes in each line (or phrase)- but I agree it's a big job if no one has done it.
BTW - I'm looking for tune that is 9.8.9.8. (as in My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean, Wayfaring Stranger, The Day Thou Gavest...
Of course, it has to be the right "foot" as well - but a list of 9.8.9.8 tunes would be start.
Chris


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Metrical index of olk tunes
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 01:15 PM

LOvely typo in the title of this thread. I wonder if the missing letter is a Y?


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Metrical index of olk tunes
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 02:06 PM

John - Are you implying there should be egg on someone's face?

Chris - Counting notes - that's one of the things I've never been quite clear about (and why I never bothered to do this for the DT). Everyone always says it's the number of syllables in the lines, but it's not obvious (to me!) what to do if a syllable is held across two notes or if two words are elided onto one note. I have the lyrics and the tunes (in abc) for the DT and I could count either but I've never bothered because of the things in small print details. (Actually I'm not sure offhand if all the original DT tunes were separated on the line boundaries; I might have to check that first).

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Metrical index of olk tunes
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:16 PM

Adding metrical info to DT songs has been one of my dreams, but, sadly, I didn't think of it until we had over 5000 tunes already entered. If anyone wishes to start this as a project, I'd be delighted to incorporate it.I think it would be a valuable enhancement to what I consider a useful collection.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Metrical index of folk tunes
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 02:08 AM

I'm certain there has been prior discussion here, but it was before I'd been around long enough to have started keeping track, and I have no clue as to a thread name. A site was identified, but few useful sites that were around that long ago are likely to be still up, mudcat being the rare exception (thanks Max).

I'd guess it was back about in the time when Knuth abandoned the last book that would have finished explaining "everything" and switched to typesetting - with only a bare beginning on setting music scores.

Of course my memory has improved to where I do sometimes remember even things I never knew ...

John


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Metrical index of folk tunes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 08:02 AM

The way "Le Clé du Caveau" did it was to classify songs by the verse form of the text. They didn't look at the structure of the tune directly - they just assumed that whoever set the tune to the words got it right, which was a dependable assumption for the songs they were looking at. If they'd been dealing with a tradition where melisma was normal, that wouldn't have worked.


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