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Lyr Req: Captain Mark [Captain Markee?]

GUEST,Alan 28 Nov 12 - 06:39 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 28 Nov 12 - 08:14 AM
Jim Dixon 28 Nov 12 - 08:22 AM
GUEST,Alan 28 Nov 12 - 09:17 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 28 Nov 12 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Alan 28 Nov 12 - 09:36 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 28 Nov 12 - 01:18 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 28 Nov 12 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,Alan 29 Nov 12 - 04:07 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 29 Nov 12 - 05:17 AM
EBarnacle 29 Nov 12 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,Alan 30 Nov 12 - 04:37 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 30 Nov 12 - 05:50 AM
Artful Codger 30 Nov 12 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,Alan 01 Dec 12 - 02:03 PM
GUEST 01 Dec 12 - 04:04 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 01 Dec 12 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,Alan 03 Dec 12 - 03:24 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 03 Dec 12 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,Alan 04 Dec 12 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,Alan 04 Dec 12 - 12:02 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 04 Dec 12 - 01:11 PM
Artful Codger 04 Dec 12 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Alan 04 Dec 12 - 04:29 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Captain Mark
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:39 AM

I'm working on the songs Ralph Vaughan Williams noted in King's Lynn, Norfolk, UK, in 1905 and cannot find lyrics for several titles despite extensive research. Can anyone help please?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 08:14 AM

This should be Captain Markee according to the Roud index, a version of Child 167/250. Only sources as listed for Near Scarborough Town.

Almost all the ones you've requested seem to be available only in the mss at BL or copy at VWML, with a few in the Journal.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 08:22 AM

There is a book—

Folk Songs Collected by Ralph Vaughan Williams, edited by Roy Palmer (London: J. M. Dent, 1983)

A review says: "Roy Palmer's book contains 121 of the 800-odd folksongs which Vaughan Williams collected between 1903 and 1913. … Seventy have not hitherto been published."

Can you quote any words from the song? How did you hear of it?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:17 AM

Thanks Mick. Will chase up Child 167/250.
Have been through RVW's MS at BL.
Is there an index to the JFSS apart from in each volume?
Alan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:31 AM

Alan if you're just looking for lyrics for the songs without them, your best bet would be to use the Roud index to find the song as collected (use multiple field search with vaughan in collector and lynn in place along with the title) and get the Roud number, then do a single field search on the Roud number only for the other versions available.

Jim - I don't think any of the songs Alan's looking for are in Palmer's book (I had a quick check earlier).

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:36 AM

Thanks Jim.
I have Roy Palmer's excellent book.
I went to BL and copied all RVW's field notes from King's Lynn 1905 for the unpublished songs. Have found words for most of them.
Have no words for Captain Markee - yet, but see reply from Mick.
Alan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 01:18 PM

Bronson prints this with Child 250 Henry Martin (167 is the Andrew Barton group) and prints 8 verses with the tune. Do your notes above mean that you don't have these 8 Alan? If you do and are looking for other versions, there are plenty to choose from.

Mick




CAPTAIN MARKEE

There was three brothers in Merry Scotland,
There was three brothers all three,
And they did cast lots whose lot it should be
To turn robber all on the salt sea.

The lot it fell to Captain Markee,
The youngest of all the three,
To turn a scotch robber all on the salt sea
To maintain his two brothers and he.

They roved, they roved all one winter's night,
Till daylight did appear ("repair"),
They spied a rich merchant ship sailing far off,
And at length she began to come near

"O it's where are you bound," says Captain Markee,
"O where are you sailing so high?"
"We're bound for Old England," the ship's crew replied,
"If you will let us pass by."

"O no, O no," says Captain Markee,
"O no that never can be,
For all your rich merchants goods we'll take away
And your sailors all drownded shall be."

Bad news, bad news," the ship's crew replied,
"Bad news and a sorrowful sound,
For all the rich merchants goods you'll take away
And forty-two merry men drowned."

They roved, they roved this rich merchant ship
For hours twelve and three,
Till at length the salt water so fast flowed in
And down to the bottom went she.

They lashed the sailor men back unto back
And threw them into the sea . . .
"Some help, some help," cried Captain Markee,
"And ? ? we all could agree,
For you've the salt water, and we've the money,
Now you've got to follow the sailors to sea."


Source: Bronson: The Traditional Tunes Of The Child Ballads from Vaughan Williams MSS., III, p. 206. Sung by Mr. Harper,
King's Lynn, Norfolk, January 13, 1905.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 01:39 PM

btw Alan, are you connected with the EATMT - East Anglian Traditional Music Trust, or more particularly the NEV- North End Voices, who seem to be concerned with the King's Lynn music?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 04:07 AM

Mick,
I'm not sure if you got my response of 29.11.12 as this b****y computer seems to have wiped 15 minutes work composing it. At the risk of being repetitive I'll try again:

Thanks for the 'Captain Markee' words. It now seems that the only item I missed while in the BL was the tune to the same! Is there anywhere I can look for that, or, if you have it, could you e-mail a copy to alan@quanting.co.uk ? - assuming that sort of thing is acceptable via a website like this.

btw I am only connected to EATMT by being a member and a Friend, but I did take part in the NEV Project although it is not mentioned on the NEV website. (I taught some local schoolchildren some local songs, some of them RVW 1905 vintage)

btfw The website says that the 4 1905 RVW Tilney tunes are in my Norfolk tune book 'Hawk & Harnser' but they're not - although I can understand why Katie Howson would think so.

Many thanks for your help so far,
Alan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 05:17 AM

Alan

Here's the Captain Markee tune. If abc is a problem for you I can email a music copy to you (If you join Mudcat you can send me a personal message with your address so it isn't public. Mudcat doesn't use you membership details for anything - you only need to provide an email address to joe@mudcat.org and a name to use and he'll set it up).

In Bronson the last line of the music start with a E 1/4 note which I've split into two 1/8 Es to fit the words.

Mick




X:1
T:Captain Markee
B: Bronson: The Traditional Tunes Of The Child Ballads #250, 7
S: Vaughan Williams (MSS., III, p. 206) from by Mr. Harper, King's Lynn, Jan 13, 1905
N:The E/E/ at start of line 4 was E in Bronson. I split it to fit the v1 words
L:1/4
M:3/4
K:C
C|E2 F|G G G|F E E|C2
w:There was three broth-ers in Mer-ry Scot-land,
G|c2 c|d c A|G3-|G2
w:There was three broth-ers all three,
G|c2 c|c G G|F E F|G2
w:And they did cast lots whose lot it should be
E/E/|C E G|G F D|C2|]
w:To turn rob-ber all on the salt sea.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 03:26 PM

Alternately, you can contact Dick Greenhaus at Camsco music and get the CD of Bronson. He can be extremely helpful.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark [Captain Markee?]
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:37 AM

Thanks a lot Jim, EBarnacle and especially Mick.
I had stupidly overlooked Sam Larner of Winterton's 'Henry Martin' on 'Now is the Time for Fishing', to which I've added your first 2 verses to make the story flow, and have used that to keep it in the Norfolk family as much as poss.
Yes Mick, I can manage the abc form, though slowly. Thanks for doing that.
Another off my list!
Alan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark [Captain Markee?]
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 05:50 AM

Alan - I don't know if it wasn't clear in my post above, but the 8 verses above were collected in King's Lynn with the tune.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark [Captain Markee?]
From: Artful Codger
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 11:07 AM

To convert the ABC into a MIDI and score, try the folkinfo.org ABC Converter.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark [Captain Markee?]
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 02:03 PM

Hi Mick, No I didn't get the impression they were actually sung in their entirety to RVW. At the bottom it said 'The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads'.
The problem is the phrase 'sung by XXX' which can mean 1 verse noted, or all, it seems.
Is there any way I can find out for which songs RVW noted ALL the words, apart from another trip to BL? I confess when I was there I was concentrating on getting a complete list of all he noted.
Alan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark [Captain Markee?]
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 04:04 PM

Although Bronson's magnum opus is called The Traditional Tunes of The Child Ballads, he prints the words collected with the tunes, so the version above is what was collected by RVW.

In general I don't think there's an easy way to check which words were collected by RVW without checking the mss (or the journal for those published there). The Roud index will tell you which ones have no lyrics collected (it notes Text/Music or Music or Text); for the ones with text you'd have to see the mss to tell how much text.

For the songs you were requesting help with I did look at this with Roud a few days ago and, if my notes are right, the situation is: The ones listed as music only were Near Scarborough Town, Fair Flora, The Raven's Feather, I Went To Besty and Fourteenth Day of February. Those listed with text were Captain Markee and It's Of An Old Lord, the texts of both of which are in the threads here. Come Nancy Will You Marry Me doesn't appear in the Roud index as far as I can see (not anywhere!).

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark [Captain Markee?]
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 04:53 PM

Last was me. Cookie not recognised.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark [Captain Markee?]
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 03:24 PM

Fantastic Mick. You are very helpful.
Alan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark [Captain Markee?]
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 04:02 PM

We aim to please.

Have you seen the new possibility for Nancy from me and Steve?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark [Captain Markee?]
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:01 PM

Mick,
I've had only a cursory look at 'Nancy' as I'm stuck in the middle of a complete revision of several week's work checking all 72 word sets -thanks to you getting me on the straight and narrow.!

None of them fit the scansion / metre of the tune RVW noted. Now I read stave, solfa, shape-note, chord charts and tab, but hesitate to try to create abc.

Think 'He who would valiant be', or as we folkies say, 'The Captain cried, "All Hands!"' and in G and 4/4 it's

D, | G   A B A G | B D g F# | E D B G | A
1 | l.5 .5 .5 .5 l | l l l 1 | 1 1 1 1 | 3

That might convey the tune, though it wouldn't work in a proportional font. Bring back tapewritters!
I'll stop now.
Alan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark [Captain Markee?]
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:02 PM

Arghhhh!!!
The spacing's come out all wrong.
Line up the thin vertical strokes and it should make sense.
A


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark [Captain Markee?]
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:11 PM

I'm not sure you've got the hang of the octaves yet! Here's a version with the correct rhythm as you've given it. Here's what I think you might have meant:

X:1
T:Nancy sample
L:1/4
M:4/4
K:G
D|G>A B/A/ G|B d g f|e d B G|A3|]

(Something like The Minstrel Boy. But I may not have the correct octaves either).

(BTW, if you use the > or < abbreviations for dotted 1/4 followed by 1/8 or its reverse, you need to replace them with &gt; and &lt; in the posts here; otherwise it will try to interpret them as tags and confuse things).

If you want to try some abc you can see if it's correct by using the online converter: Concertina.net abc converter. Paste the abc into the box and press Submit. It will show you the notes and let you get a pdf and midi file.

(If you want to have software on your own machine you'll find some at abcnotation.com. This is the site of Chris Walshaw the inventor of abc. There's a software page there and tutorials on the language).

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Captain Mark [Captain Markee?]
From: Artful Codger
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:44 PM

Yes, for simple ABC like this, the concertina.net converter may do, but if there are embedded chords or anything that whiffs of more advanced features, the folkinfo.org ABC Converter is MUCH better.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:29 PM

X:1
T:Come Nancy will you marry me?
C:Trad
M:C
L:8
K:D
A,2|D3FD2|F2A2d2c2|B2A2F2D2|E6A,2|D3EFED2|F2A2d2b2|A2d2F2AF|E4D2A,2|
D3EFED2|F2A2d4|dcBAF2E2|F2D2B,2A,2|D3EFED2|F2A2d2B2|A3FD2F2|E4D2||

Be gentle with me - it's my first attempt.
Anybody recognise it?
Alan


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