Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Lyr Req: Fair Flora

GUEST,Alan 28 Nov 12 - 06:46 AM
Matthew Edwards 28 Nov 12 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,Alan 28 Nov 12 - 11:42 AM
Matthew Edwards 28 Nov 12 - 12:23 PM
Steve Gardham 28 Nov 12 - 04:03 PM
Jim Dixon 28 Nov 12 - 11:13 PM
GUEST,Alan 29 Nov 12 - 04:59 AM
Steve Gardham 29 Nov 12 - 04:30 PM
Steve Gardham 29 Nov 12 - 04:42 PM
Steve Gardham 29 Nov 12 - 05:04 PM
Steve Gardham 29 Nov 12 - 05:06 PM
Matthew Edwards 29 Nov 12 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,Alan 30 Nov 12 - 03:37 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 30 Nov 12 - 03:21 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:




Subject: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:46 AM

I'm working on the songs Ralph Vaughan Williams noted in King's Lynn, Norfolk, UK, in 1905 and cannot find lyrics for several titles despite extensive research. Can anyone help please?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 11:17 AM

In the Roud Index this is noted as appearing in Vaughan Williams's Mss notebook Vol.3, MS bk 5, p.198, and it was collected from the singing of Mr Harper, King's Lynn, Norfolk, Jan 15 1905. As no words were noted down there is no Roud number assigned to this record.

However it seems possible that Mr Harper sang a version of Roud #948 which goes by a number of titles including Fair Floro, Sheepcrook and Black Dog, The Unkind Shepherdess. This can only be guesswork though, but if you have the tune from the RVW MS, you might be able to match it with one of the recorded versions of the song. There don't see to be any other performances noted in East Anglia, but Vaughan Williams did collect 'Sheepcrook and Black Dog' from a Mr Stacey in Holycombe, Sussex in 1904.

Matthew


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 11:42 AM

Thanks Matthew,
The only words on the RVW MS are "a Welsh song" which doesn't help much.
Can I trouble you to ask how to access Roud 948 as I've just spent a frustrating few hours on the efdss website going round in circles and not accessing anything even remotely roudish!
Cheers,
Alan


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 12:23 PM

Hi Alan,

There are two Roud Indexes; the Roud Folksong Index, and the Roud Broadside Index, which are both accessible online through the VWML Online in the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library section of the EFDSS website. If you click on the 'Search Indexes' button, you will get a dropdown menu leading to Folksong Indexes, with a forther option to choose the Folksong Index or the Broadside Index, or to cross search both. The VWML home page explains the resources available, and there is also a helpful guide to Searching the indexes.

You can read more about using the indexes in the Enthusiasms section of the Musical Traditions website; just click on article #29. The article relates to a time before the indexes were avalable online, but the main principles are still the same.

Steve Roud, who compiles the indexes, is about to overhaul them, and perhaps when he has done so it may be useful to add a guide on Mudcat to using the indexes.

Happy hunting! and be warned that there are many of us who became immersed in the indexes years ago, and have never been the same since!

Matthew


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 04:03 PM

And if 948 doesn't fit it might be worth giving 957 a go. (Laws P29, Flora, the Lily of the West'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 11:13 PM

The library of The University of St. Andrews, Fife, has a song/chapbook called Fair Flora, or, the Unfortunate Lovers from 1810.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 04:59 AM

Thanks for all that Matthew and Steve, but none of your suggestions seem to allow me access to the WORDS of the song which is what I want.
Alan


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 04:30 PM

Okay
The Shepherd and Flora (No imprint slip, c1820)
As I went out walking one morning in May
When the fields were all green and were gay,
The trees and green bushes were covered with young,
And the small birds around me so joyfully sung. (7 stanzas)

The Unkind Shepherdess (Catnach, London, c1820-30)
I'll spread these green branches all over her young,
So well do I like my love so sweetly she sung,
Was there ever a young man in so happy a state,
As I with my Flora my Flora so great. (7 stanzas)

The Unkind Shepherdess (No imprint but very likely Kendrew of York c1810)
It was near a fountain where I sat alone,
The birds they sat round me to pitty my moan,
All drest in their branches and over me hung,
They seem'd to attend me so sweetly they sung. (7 stanzas)

And others with as much variation. Hardly recognisable as the same song from the first stanza and indeed the first 3 stanzas in each case. Not until the 4th stanza do they become recognisable as the same song. The pastoral style is very much that of the London theatres and pleasure gardens of the 18th century. For an early 19th century slip song to have so much variation between versions would probably put its composition back to at least c1750.

I'm pretty sure 'Flora, the Lily of the West' will be in the DT. Try it on the search engine at the top of the home page.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 04:42 PM

I haven't got a copy of Jim's suggested song, but it could be another version of the above. Even so I would like to get more of it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 05:04 PM

There is a broadside in the Broadwood Collection printed by Wright of Birmingham with the title'FF' First line 'Come hither, fair Flora, and sit down by me.' Very likely a flowery piece, which would have put RVW off from noting it down.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 05:06 PM

Alan,
As you can see the next thread down currently 'Sheepcrook and Blackdog' is the Fair Flora we mentioned above.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 05:08 PM

Thanks for those, Steve. There are some versions already on Mudcat here Sheepcrook and Black Dog most of which derive from Carolyne Hughes via Ewan MacColl. I've added a couple more texts, and I may get round to adding the lovely versions sung by Eddie Butcher and Mrs Cassie Sheeran later.

Matthew


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 03:37 AM

Thanks Steve, Matthew, Jim. I have a set of words that fit well - The Unkind Shepherdess from the Bodliean Library.
Another job jobbed!
Alan


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fair Flora
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 03:21 PM

Possible related to Jim's suggestion above, there are two entries in google books for Fair Flora:

Fair Flora, Or, the Unfortunate Lovers. To which is Added, The Rose-tree, and Cauld Kail in Aberdeen, 1810, no publisher given.

and

An Excellent Garland, Containing, Six Choice Songs:
1 Guardian Angels 2 Old Adam 3 The Milk-maid 4 Come Kiss, Says He 5 The Nymph's Reply. 6 Fair Flora
, pub Swindells. No date on detail page, but index gives 1790.

There are no previews for either.

I think one of the versions of Flora's Departure/Farewell has something like to which is added Fair Flora's reply (though that may not mean anything as far as the text is concerned).

Simpson in BBBM has, under the tune Young Phaon, a note that an 18C issue of Flora's Departure starts with Fair Flora beautiful and gay ("to the tune Wheel of Fortune, for which I have found no music").

I think several of the Flora's Departure ballads I looked at specify tunes. I wonder if Alan could post the tune to see if it compares with any of them (or something someone recognises). I'd be happy to convert sheet music to abc if that's easier.

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 20 February 11:10 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.