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Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat

MGM·Lion 04 Dec 12 - 05:21 PM
kendall 04 Dec 12 - 07:01 PM
bobad 04 Dec 12 - 07:08 PM
bobad 04 Dec 12 - 07:10 PM
JohnInKansas 04 Dec 12 - 07:11 PM
Bill D 04 Dec 12 - 08:23 PM
Bill D 04 Dec 12 - 08:23 PM
JohnInKansas 04 Dec 12 - 09:54 PM
Artful Codger 04 Dec 12 - 10:01 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Dec 12 - 11:26 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Dec 12 - 11:29 PM
Reinhard 05 Dec 12 - 12:30 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Dec 12 - 01:03 AM
GUEST,Grishka 05 Dec 12 - 06:14 AM
Mr Red 05 Dec 12 - 11:37 AM
JohnInKansas 05 Dec 12 - 11:39 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Dec 12 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,Grishka 05 Dec 12 - 12:07 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 05 Dec 12 - 12:26 PM
Newport Boy 05 Dec 12 - 12:34 PM
Bill D 05 Dec 12 - 01:45 PM
Artful Codger 05 Dec 12 - 04:39 PM
Bill D 05 Dec 12 - 05:24 PM
Bill D 05 Dec 12 - 05:24 PM
Bill D 05 Dec 12 - 05:28 PM
Mr Red 06 Dec 12 - 12:23 PM
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Subject: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:21 PM

The Special Character Viewer on my Apple ~~ the facility for producing symbols, arrows, foreign alphabets, &c, by going to its site, selecting a symbol & clicking on an insert button, is not at present working on the Mudcat "Reply To Thread" frames, though it usually does. It is working OK in my normal word processing; so has some contact failed temporarily on Mudcat?

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: kendall
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:01 PM

Yes. Spell check.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: bobad
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:08 PM

You may have noticed that Mudcat is running much faster than usual, that is because Max has been making revisions to the site. In a thread explaining this he also said to let him know if you notice some things not working as they should to let him know.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: bobad
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:10 PM

Dang, must remember to proofread before posting.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:11 PM

Is the site you're going to specifically for Mac?

In Windows, an application called "Character Map" shows characters available in the fonts you have installed. If you select, copy selected characters, and paste them from there into almost anything else, you get the expected character glyphs. The built-in Windows Character Map also displays the Unicode character number for any character/symbol you click on, so you can code the character explicitly in html posts.

A separate utility in Office, and particularly in Word, allows you to "Insert Symbol" but what you get when you use that facility is not necessarily transferable to other applications, and most especially to html, since some of the "symbols" are unique to the character pages loaded on the machine you're using, and many of the character "pictures" are assigned arbitrarily to "unused" and/or "reserved" character numbers in the standard font character tables (ANSI or Unicode). The character numbers assigned "have no meaning" for other applications.

This "Insert Symbol" feature has been a problem when documents are sent to professional printers, since many of them have used "other" systems that don't recognize the "maverick symbols" in the documents, and print garbage. It's also been a particular difficulty when some people use Macs and others use Windows, and pass documents back and forth, because certain of the characters inserted as symbols look fine in one, but are trash when the document is opened in the other. The compatibility between Mac and Windows has been "improving" somewhat, but hasn't been completely eliminated.

If you are absolutely certain that a specific symbol that appeared good previously now is trashed when you insert that identical single symbol using the same method, it might be suspected that something changed at mudcat. Even if a particular method produced some symbols that worked previously, it can't be assumed that a different symbol from the same source/method will ever have displayed right, if the selection is from "local character pages" on a particular machine.

The safest method to use at mudcat, for anything other than straight text, is coding using the Unicode character values. Even that will fail to display correctly if your computer doesn't have a font containing the particular "special character" at the same character number defined by Unicode. It isn't usually necessary for the 'cat to have a font that contains the character since the "char number" is all that's sent back and forth between your machine and the 'cat server, although sometimes an encoding change will try to read an 8-bit char as a 16-bit one and/or vice versa.

Your problem may be caused by something else, of course, but the "Insert Symbols" in Windows has been a constant PIA for professional users for decades. I can't say how much of a problem it is in the most recent Macs, but still found "broken chars" in the most recent direct exchanges between Mac/Windows that we've seen - that appeared to be from that usage.

If you'd post some of the characters that are giving you a problem, we might be able to suggest something helpful.

(Yeah - I did notice you said they don't post, but I just got some new software that told me not to break the seal on the package if I didn't accept the EULA, but the EULA was inside the package and could only be read after the software was installed so I couldn't resist. That kind of mood ...)

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:23 PM

test∞☺ ß ♫


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:23 PM

worked on those...for me anyway


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:54 PM

First column decimal number
Second column hex number
Third column glyph for &#X[hex number];

for a few consecutive numbers beginning at decimal 9992 (chosen at random)


9992       2708       ✈
9993       2709       ✉
9994       270A       ✊
9995       270B       ✋
9996       270C       ✌
9997       270D       ✍
9998       270E       ✎
9999       270F       ✏
10000       2710       ✐
10001       2711       ✑
10002       2712       ✒
10003       2713       ✓
10004       2714       ✔
10005       2715       ✕
10006       2716       ✖
10007       2717       ✗
10008       2718       ✘
10009       2719       ✙
10010       271A       ✚
10011       271B       ✛
10012       271C       ✜
10013       271D       ✝
10014       271E       ✞
10015       271F       ✟
10016       2720       ✠
10017       2721       ✡
10018       2722       ✢
10019       2723       ✣
10020       2724       ✤
10021       2725       ✥
10022       2726       ✦
10023       2727       ✧
10024       2728       ✨
10025       2729       ✩
10026       272A       ✪
10027       272B       ✫
10028       272C       ✬
10029       272D       ✭
10030       272E       ✮
10031       272F       ✯
10032       2730       ✰
10033       2731       ✱
10034       2732       ✲
10035       2733       ✳
10036       2734       ✴
10037       2735       ✵
10038       2736       ✶
10039       2737       ✷
10040       2738       ✸
10041       2739       ✹
10042       273A       ✺
10043       273B       ✻
10044       273C       ✼
10045       273D       ✽
10046       273E       ✾
10047       273F       ✿
10048       2740       ❀
10049       2741       ❁
10050       2742       ❂
10051       2743       ❃
10052       2744       ❄
10053       2745       ❅
10054       2746       ❆
10055       2747       ❇
10056       2748       ❈
10057       2749       ❉
10058       274A       ❊
10059       274B       ❋
10060       274C       ❌
10061       274D       ❍
10062       274E       ❎
10063       274F       ❏
10064       2750       ❐
10065       2751       ❑
10066       2752       ❒
10067       2753       ❓
10068       2754       ❔
10069       2755       ❕
10070       2756       ❖
10071       2757       ❗
10072       2758       ❘
10073       2759       ❙
10074       275A       ❚
10075       275B       ❛
10076       275C       ❜
10077       275D       ❝
10078       275E       ❞
10079       275F       ❟
10080       2760       ❠
10081       2761       ❡
10082       2762       ❢
10083       2763       ❣
10084       2764       ❤
10085       2765       ❥
10086       2766       ❦
10087       2767       ❧
10088       2768       ❨
10089       2769       ❩
10090       276A       ❪
10091       276B       ❫
10092       276C       ❬
10093       276D       ❭
10094       276E       ❮
10095       276F       ❯
10096       2770       ❰
10097       2771       ❱
10098       2772       ❲
10099       2773       ❳
10100       2774       ❴
10101       2775       ❵
10102       2776       ❶
10103       2777       ❷
10104       2778       ❸
10105       2779       ❹
10106       277A       ❺
10107       277B       ❻
10108       277C       ❼
10109       277D       ❽
10110       277E       ❾
10111       277F       ❿
10112       2780       ➀
10113       2781       ➁
10114       2782       ➂
10115       2783       ➃

The two dozen characters that don't print are undefined in the Unicode standard, so the blank square (in my font) is the correct rendering. All in this series preview just fine, but you'll need to have an appropriate font on your computer to see them all, so YMMV.

I don't see a change in the 'cat.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: Artful Codger
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:01 PM

For the full scoop on how to properly encode special characters here (at least until this longtime problem is resolved, hopefully in the upcoming transition) see this thread:
Entering special characters


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:26 PM

Yours seem to be going OK, Bill. But mine still aren't. To show some of those I mean, by laborious method of wp-ing them & then copy-pasting:

➢➢δδ☏☏☠☠♚♚❤❤❦❦〠〠

~M~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:29 PM

They used, as I said, always to work; and, as you see from above, they will still work on wp; so I can't see where it can be my Mac at fault. But seems odd that they will go ding-aling-aling for Bill but not for me...

~M~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: Reinhard
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:30 AM

Which browser do you use?   The special characters work just fine on my Mac with Safari, Opera and Chrome but not with Firefox.

(Also my Firefox doesn't render repetetive signs as in 𝄆 When I was ... 𝄇 but Safari, Opera and Chrome do.)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:03 AM

I use Safari & Firefox. I tried it on both, unsuccessfully. And, as I say, up to now [the last day or two] it has worked fine on both.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 06:14 AM

Mudcat pages now specify a codepage, "charset=iso-8859-1", which it did not do formerly. Your Mac tool may correctly deduce that direct input of characters not present in iso-8859-1 is not desired.

Mudcat happens to accept HTML escapes, as used by John above, which is a special feature, so that the Mac cannot be blamed for failing to realise it.

The problems are long known and have been discussed thoroughly.

As you know, Mudcat is about to lose all its charming anachronisms soon, so that all old problems will be replaced by new ones. Until then, enter HTML escapes manually, or use the tool CopyUnicode.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:37 AM

a curious thing but when I get e-mails from Mac users I get leters & symbols where the apostrophe would be, and always was from PC users. Until Outlook Express was pensioned off in favour of Windows Mail, now I get all manner of rubbish which I reply to in "plain text", It rarely cure them!

The "it works on my computer" is usually the response. "Well give me your computer then" would be mine.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:39 AM

Reinhard shows two characters that don't work in Firefox. Those two are embedded at mudcat as HEX 1D106 and 1D107, and neither of these displays in the mudcat Preview even if properly coded. "High-bit" char numbers are sometime mangled in html, or a "char pair" of low-bit numbers may be read as a single high-bit one if not well coded, so those charnums may not be what was entered in the post(?).

Most browsers handle Character numbers only up to FOUR DIGIT Hex numbers (FFFF or FFFE}, unless the browser encoding is changed from common/typical defaults. (With some encodings failure may occur for many chars above DECIMAL 9999 = HEX 2701.) This is more of a problem if the website style sheet doesn't specify an encoding, as used to be the case here. Browsers may vary with whether you can "override" the website-specified encoding or whether the site spec always takes precedence. (We haven't really discussed that here ....(?))

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:51 AM

This is all largely too hitec for me, who am not a greatly techno-gifted person. All I know is that, until a few days ago, I just had to call up the Special Characters menu, click on the one I wanted, & click the Insert button, to get the image I wanted into print. This still works for ordinary WP, but no longer for Reply to Thread on Mudcat ~~ tho it seems, from above, to work OK for Bill. Hence my puzzlement.

Thanks nevertheless for all offers of assistance.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:07 PM

No hitec (which I would not know either), just logic. Yes, John, we discussed it, but now it will soon become irrelevant.

(If the codepage were UTF-8, as Max tried out before, Michael's method would probably work again, but many existing messages would suddenly display with wrong non-English characters, exposing the posters as non-Artful ;-))

Michael, use CopyUnicode for almost equal comfort.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:26 PM

JiK - the start and end repeat signs in Reihnard's post do show in my version of Firefox (under Ubuntu 12.04, Firefox 17.0.1). (Also renders most - all but 11 - of your posted chars)

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: Newport Boy
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:34 PM

Also my Firefox doesn't render repetetive signs as in 𝄆 When I was ... 𝄇 but Safari, Opera and Chrome do.)

The above is a cut & paste from Reinhard's post. The repeat symbols displayed correctly when pasted into this Reply window, but are replaced by '&#' codes in the compose pane of Mudcat's Preview window - the actual Preview above displays them correctly. I'm using Firefox, and the encoding for these pages is Western (ISO-8859-1).

Phil


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:45 PM

I entered mine using the alt method... no calling up the character map at all...

alt-0223= ß
alt- 236= ∞

etc. I have certain common ones memorized, and have saved a list similar to what JiK posted for less common ones.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: Artful Codger
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 04:39 PM

Grishka and I wrote two cross-platform utilities to help with these problems. For inserting single special characters into Mudcat messages, use Grishka's CopyUnicode. For spans of text you copy to your clipboard (as from WP documents or web pages), use my HtmlEsc.java program before pasting. That should be simple enough, even for the tech-averse: Ctl-C (or Cmd-C), double-click, Ctl-V.

The copy-convert-paste approach can also be used for text already in the Mudcat message box, so you can use other composition techniques, like Windows Alt sequences, as long as you remember to convert before submitting previewing.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 05:24 PM

丒 Æ Ƹ

Ok... got the jar program on my other PC, and it seems to work fine... this is a test


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 05:24 PM

great! I like this...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 05:28 PM

☝ ☊ ♒ ➷ �


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Subject: RE: Tech: Special Character Viewer failing on Cat
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 12:23 PM

FWIW I have an encoder page which will convert all text to hash codes. Good for obscuring e-mail addresses.

It also displays any code that your browser/OS will - up to 65,000 ish (FFFF)

cresby.com > code generator

Best of luck.


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