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BS: the anti-terrorist terror in NZ

Jack Campin 04 Dec 12 - 08:48 PM
Fossil 04 Dec 12 - 09:43 PM
Jack Campin 05 Dec 12 - 04:15 AM
Little Robyn 05 Dec 12 - 06:28 AM
Jack Campin 05 Dec 12 - 07:06 AM
Fossil 05 Dec 12 - 05:39 PM
Fossil 05 Dec 12 - 05:51 PM
Little Robyn 05 Dec 12 - 08:00 PM

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Subject: BS: the anti-terrorist terror in NZ
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:48 PM

I think I heard about this when it started in 2007, but the media didn't do a lot to keep me informed of it. New Zealand experiencing an "anti-terrorist" dragnet like those of the Bush and Obama administrations, but on entirely domestic issues:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_Zealand_raids

October 2012 story

Methodist Church's statement (.docx file)

The last link (not very comprehensible to a non-NZer on its own) is what informed me about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: the anti-terrorist terror in NZ
From: Fossil
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:43 PM

No, not very comprehensible to outsiders. Has to be seen within the context that some militant Maoris - claiming to represent the true owners of New Zealand, the Maori tribes - were setting up guerilla camps back in the boondocks of the Urawera Hills, where their converts would undertake military-style training, trekking through the bush waving AK47's (and occasionally shooting them off) preparing for the day of the armed uprising when whitey will be thrown out of New Zealand altogether.

Well, of course we can't have that, not in this day and age, can we?

So the plods (who, of course had known about these clowns all along) took it into their heads to mount a big "shock and awe"-style quasi-military operation, and banged in complete with helicopter gunships, dawn raids, cellphone intercepts and all the apparatus of homeland security, and arrested lots of people.

Except that, this being New Zealand, where human rights are important and the judiciary is independent, it soon emerged that the police had somehow omitted to ensure that everything they had done was completely kosher, legally speaking. So most of the cases got thrown out of court and the four who did get charged were the ringleaders and those found with illegal weapons in circumstances where the evidence had been obtained in legally admissible ways.

While I hold no strong opinions one way or another about the history which underlies the seemingly perpetual Maori sense of grievance, I don't think (and neither does most modern Maori political opinion) that armed uprising based on racial violence is the way of choice to move forward into the 21st century. So I don't believe that there is any great lesson to be learned from all of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: the anti-terrorist terror in NZ
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 04:15 AM

Most of the people searched, arrested and questioned had no conceivable connection with any kind of potentially violent activity, and gun ownership without regular documentation is very common in NZ. It was a straightforward case of "round up the usual suspects".


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Subject: RE: BS: the anti-terrorist terror in NZ
From: Little Robyn
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 06:28 AM

Here's an earlier news film showing the little fat man shooting a flag.
People in NZ are not permitted to walk around with guns and he did this as a deliberate taunt, shooting at a flag in the middle of a public gathering. He enjoys upsetting people and seems to think he's invincible but he's really just a clown.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: BS: the anti-terrorist terror in NZ
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 07:06 AM

People in NZ walk around with guns all the time. How else do you think deer and goats get hunted? Kiwis haven't turned them into a religion the way the Americans have, but it's not freakish and sinister to own one as it is in the UK.

The historical reference the guy was making would have been obvious to anyone in NZ over the age of 10.

Hone Heke


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Subject: RE: BS: the anti-terrorist terror in NZ
From: Fossil
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 05:39 PM

True, guns are pretty common in rural NZ (not in the cities), but there are pretty comprehensive regulations about what sort of guns they can be. Shotguns and airguns used as tools for farm use are common, rifles (some quite high-powered) are legal for hunters *provided the owners have a licence and store them in locked cabinets at home*. Also true, quite a lot of rural NZ'ers aren't too bothered about paperwork, so sometimes licences get a little out of date.

But most rural NZ'ers are very careful and professional about their gun use. Society here doesn't like the thought of turning guns on people. There are enough bloody stupid drunk hunters out in the hills to make accidental shootings a serious problem here. Four or five people a year get accidentally shot dead or seriously wounded by their mates.

Guns are not able to be legally used in political protests. People are not allowed to use automatic weapons at random out in the woods. It simply isn't legal. And Hone Heke and his lunatic crew are looked down on by most Maori, not to mention the rest of the pakeha society here.

Perhaps JC, you are forgetting (or ignoring the fact) that NZ society has spent over a billion dollars in the last few years going through a unique legal, politically-voted process of truth-and-reconciliation and settlement compensation for wrongs done to the Maori in the colonial era. Most iwi (tribes) have settled, or are in the process of settling, their compensation claims through a legal process and there simply is no need for posturing of the type espoused by Hone Heke.

Me, I'm a relative newcomer to NZ. I *have* read up the history, but don't feel qualified to posture about it in the way you seem to be doing.

And no, I don't approve of the "round-up-the-usual-suspects" attitude of the police. It did happen and it was reprehensible. My point was that most of the police cases were quickly thrown out by the judiciary and they had their knuckles firmly rapped for it, which they deserved.

Which is why I say that if you are trying to make some big deal out of the Urawera prosecutions and imply that there has been some kind of miscarriage of NZ justice (or anything more sinister), think again.


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Subject: RE: BS: the anti-terrorist terror in NZ
From: Fossil
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 05:51 PM

Sorry, for Hone Heke in the above post, please read Tame Iti.

Hone Heke was a Maori chief in the early settlement days. Tame Iti was sentenced to two years for his part in the Urawera affair.

Apologies to NZ readers for any confusion caused.


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Subject: RE: BS: the anti-terrorist terror in NZ
From: Little Robyn
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 08:00 PM

Thanks Fossil. Most of us think "Not him again!" when Tama Iti appears on TV. Several years back he bared his backside to the Queen, during a royal visit.
He's a rather arrogant, little fat activist who seems to think we should step back 100 years and fight it out, until his followers get rid of the rest of us.
Jack, you'd be amongst those he wants to send back to where you (or your forebears) came from.
Me? I'd be happy to go back to Padstow but my family left there over 150 years ago and there's no place for me there. Only as a visitor. NZ is where I was born and I feel I have a right to live here and bring up my family safely without activists/terrorists threatening us.
And I don't know of anyone who has a gun! None of my friends are hunters.
Hone Heke used an axe!
If you tried walking the streets of NZ carrying a gun, the police would have you cornered and stopped - maybe with a taser, in no time at all! Even ordinary police are not allowed to carry a gun - only the Armed Offender's Squad when they are called in on rare occasions.
Robyn


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