Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs

Subject: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Ferret
Date: 30 Oct 99 - 10:09 AM

In a number of Irish rebel songs I have herd is a line 'up the RAS or RA Can any one tell me what this means please? all the best ferret

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Clifton53
Date: 30 Oct 99 - 10:25 AM

I'm no Irish scholar there Ferret, but I think it is "up the I.R.A.", meaning to "up" them,that is, back them, support them etc. Anyone else??

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Ferret
Date: 30 Oct 99 - 10:39 AM

Well that is what I throat at first but as both I.R.A. and RAS, or RA, seem to be kept very separate in the one song, I was not so shore All the best ferret

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From:
Date: 31 Oct 99 - 01:50 AM

That's because "The Razzers", "Ras", however, it wishes to be spelt, or indeed pronounced, are the cops! Take it easy, Brendy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Brakn
Date: 31 Oct 99 - 07:43 AM

RA = Republican Army
RAS = Members of the Republican Army

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Jackdougan
Date: 31 Oct 99 - 06:23 PM

So then, anybody know why the Wolfe Tones threw "up the RA's" into "Celtic Symphony"? Or did I just answer my own question?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Ferret
Date: 16 Nov 99 - 07:31 AM

thank to all all the best ferret

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Marki
Date: 16 Nov 99 - 06:34 PM

Jack:

Regarding Celtic Symphony.... I recall there being a detailed discussion about a month ago on that song. Everything was explained. Like what the song is ACTUALLY about, and what all the seemingly odd references mean. Sorry I don't know exactly when this was discussed....

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: paddymac
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 10:24 AM

Wild Colonial Boy, methinks you did exactly that!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: GUEST,saoirse
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:22 PM

"up the ra" THE R.A IS THE I.R.A ,THE IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY FOR SORT.THEY HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR 100 YEARS OR SO THEY ARE THERE TO PROTECT THE CATHOLIC COMMUNITIES IN THE NORTH OF IRELAND FROM THE BRITISH ARMY AND LOYALIST PARAMILITARIES.THE ARE ALSO THERE TO RID IRELAND AS A WHOLE(32 COUNTIES)OF THE ENGLISH

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 05:16 PM

Political propaganda here is just more trash.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: GUEST,Tone d'F
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 07:38 PM

No need to shout

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 09:24 PM

Celtic Symphony - Wolfe Tones - Lyrics??

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: alison
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 12:43 AM

Saoirse,

people know who they are, we have had many discussions and arguements here, and please bear in mind that there are many who do not support your views, especially when they are shouted... (using caps on the net is considered shouting.)

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: alison
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 12:51 AM

here are some of the old threads you might like to look through

back home in derry

My little armalite

orange sing-a-long, no surrender

today in irelands history 1 & 2

lots of passionate... and not always pleasant views...

and there are many similar threads

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:18 AM

It's time the Wolfetones, like the so-called RA, retired.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:37 AM

Big Tim's wish has been formulated in another thread this way:

There's no such thing as decommissioning until the Wolfe Tones hand up their instruments!!

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: wes.w
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 08:38 AM

The McPeake family agreed to teach music in the local community as long as there were no sectarian threats or pressure of any kind on the kids who came. That would be a good maxim for this site too.
Unfortunately, fanatics think they can win, and then delude themselves that they have, by shouting cant phrases. Sad, isn't it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From:
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 10:11 AM

I think people have a perfect right to use caps on the net or not. Some have arthritis, some have visual problems, some might prefer it for whatever reason. That "shouting" bit is fairly new and of all the things to worry about in this world, it seems that should be low on the list. mg

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: GUEST,Victoria McDonnell
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 10:19 AM

I find it laughable that most people who rant on about the IRA and other random Irish politics have never lived here and know very little about what kind of effect the groups in the North have on the daily lives of people from both religions and backgrounds. I have a feeling this little guest is a Plastic Paddy with too much time and too many fiction novels. I don't want the united counties, we can't afford to "own" the North and really don't want it. The people there now are a country of their own, hardly completely English or Irish at all and should probably better left to their *own* devices.

Victoria McDonnell Galway, Ireland Lover of Trad.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 10:26 AM

The reality of political terrorism was brought home to me in Donegal a few years ago when my mother, rather proudly it must be admitted as many of our family and neighbours had fought in the "old" IRA, told me "there's wee Tony, he's an IRA man, he could have you shot". And why? For daring to disagree with his interpretation of Irish history. That old propaganda about the IRA "defending the Catholics of the North" is nonsense. The BA (British Army) was sent in to do that job in 1969 and, cynically, the IRA fired on them, precipitating a needless 30 years of conflict. However I do appreciate that Irish history is complex and that hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 12:41 PM

Sorry Tim, but the facts coming out now show that it was the BA that precipitated the problem and initiated the firing. Get the facts right, please, as best as can be done. That is based on the testimony of the soldiers present. While I tire of uninformed, or propaganda posting such as saoirse's, I will not allow statements such as yours to go unanswered either. To suggest that that the Catholics in the North don't need protection is ludicrous. Just watch the activities around Catholic Churches on 12 July and then post. As far as our friend from Galway, I find your response to be typical of Irish people who have never lived in the North, for whom anti-Catholic bias is something they read about in the papers, and who have no more right to comment than the "little plastic Paddies" that they so disdain. I do agree with her that the solution may very well lie in The North of Ireland being a separate and unique state, but the people that live there will determine that. My guess, based on her "Trad Music" signing of her name is that she doesn't consider the songs of rebellion to be part of the tradition. As another Galway man who greatly influenced my life said, "How can these people claim to love Irish Traditional music, and ignore the 800 years of history that shaped it? Irish Rebel music is one of the forms of the Irish Musical Tradition." He was born and raised in Galway. Point of the rant? To simply point out that your biases show clearly and they are just as wrong as those you rant against.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Ringer
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 12:54 PM

Everyone else has a bias; Big Mick only has objective truth?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 01:02 PM

Whassamatter Baldy, jealous? Don't you know that I am THE BIG MICK????? I think you would be better off just commenting on my positions than attacking me because of some perceived state of mind that you imagine me in. My comments were a direct response to the comments made by others. Do I detect a little envy going on?? LOL. Poor baby.........do me a favor, just tell me what you find wrong with my position on this and leave the analysis for others...............like Spaw.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 01:29 PM

And just to make sure that there is no confusion...the "THE BIG MICK" comment above was tongue in cheek to make a point.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Jimmy C
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 02:14 PM

Tim, i'm sorry also but Big Mick is correct. The British Army were sent in to protect the catholics in those areas considered flash points. At that time the I.R.A. was almost non existent, What remnants remained from the old days were mostly older men who would meet, have a drink, sing rebel songs and discuss rebellion. However, the British army in a very short space of time showed that they were unable or unwilling to fulfill their mandate and in fact acted in a very anti=catholic manner, Whether this was by chance or design I do not know, Many of the soldiers patrolling my disrict were nothing more than soccer hooligans with uniforms and guns, (although not all were like that), but enough of them acted in such a way that the catholic population had no other choice but to look for protection elsewhere, They could not depend on the soldiers and they could never depend on the R.U.C. so the only avenue open was to unite and protect themselves and suddenly the remnants of the I.R.A., the only organization around (albeit on it's last legs) was rejuvenated and sprung back to life, gethering recruits from the neighhbourhoods which were most vunerable such as The Falls, Ardoyne, The New Lodge and East Belfast. The same scenario was carried out in Derry and like a brush fire soon spread to the country towns and villages. In the beginning the british army was welcomed with open arms by the catholic population but this euphoria soon disappeared as the brits showed their true allegiance. If the british army had done their job the I.R.A. would not have gained a foothold, so it is totally incorrect for you to say that the I.R.A. fired on them. Pleases get it right, the I.R.A. was a nearly extinct entity when the British arrived, an they would have remained so if the army had done their job. I can say with 100% certainty that in my district, there was not one gun nor one member of the I.R.A.in catholic homes until after the army arrived.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 03:07 PM

I would rather my rebels form their thoughts into high song than low murders, any day.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 03:21 PM

mgarvey... thanks, I never even thought about the visually impaired using caps. I feel just stoooopid.

gnu

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 07:58 PM

See thread on Fields of Athenry also

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Brendy
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 02:33 AM

Amos, what the hell do you know about it, anyway?About 'low murders', and the like?

Good man Mick - not a whole heap more I can add to what you've said. And Jimmy summed it up nicely.

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Tim
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 04:22 AM

Mick, good to hear from you, I warned you Irish politics can be controversial! As I said, it's a complex situation. However neither side has a monopoly on blame or shame. What, it seems to me,is obvious is that the time for picking up a gun to solve a political impasse is long gone. Jaw, jaw, jaw not war, war, war. PS I love rebel songs, been collecting since I got my first record player in 1959, now got about 300.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Ringer
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:48 AM

"Attack", Big Mick? How can you interpret my wry comment on your last sentence as an attack (or as jealousy, envy or analysis, come to that)? What a touchy fellow you are.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:52 AM

The Ooh-Ah rhyme comes originally from a skipping song - "Ooh, ah, lost my bra, left my knickers in my boyfriend's car", which was converted in admiration for black (his mother was African, I think) Irish footballing genius Paul McGrath, to go "Ooh, ah, Paul McGrath!"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 09:07 AM

Baldy, my rules have changed since my early days on the Mudcat. You and I will not debate your comment here as folks don't need a discussion of what I found slightly bothersome. However I answered you with humor, and if you would like to know my problem, send me a PM and I will gladly work out the difference with you. If not, then it is your problem.

Big Tim, hope you didn't construe my comment to mean that there isn't blame on both sides. The madness of the Omagh bombing is proof that this is so. My comment to you was directed at a very specific part of the post. And as I have said many times, the way of the gun in over. The people of the North have spoken and they demand negotiation. I am very concerned right now with the actions of, or rather the inaction of, the current administration of my own government. They are taking a "hands off" position, and I disagree mightily. There is absolutely no debate that the assistance and impetus that President Clinton and George Mitchell provided to the parties helped get us to this point. Uninformed folks don't understand the significance of the help to the success, they don't understand that McGuinness has mighty influence in Derry, Adams has great influence in Belfast, BUT the fighters in South County Armagh don't have an influential figure. IF, and I stress, IF these men were to tire of the delay and ally themselves with The Real IRA, the results would be tragic. I am very fearful for the safety of the peacemakers, and wish I had some influence with the Bush Administration. It is imperative that we, for our part, continue to use our influence to assist parties in bringing peace to the children and the people of the North of Ireland. The hands off attitude will assist the madmen that would like to see the process scuttled. I pray daily for the people of the North, Protestant and Catholic, to continue to bring pressure to bear on their communities to bring this all to a just end.

One more thing, Tim. My comments on the Rebel music were aimed at our friend from Galway, not you. Your credentials are well known and respected. Her demeaning "plastic Paddies" comment is what I reacted to, as well as her "signature". Put those two together and you get a classic broad brushstroke about Irish Americans. I am very sensitive to these comments. I have fought generalizations and prejudice my entire life. These types feel the need to express their self proclaimed superiority to Irish Americans. To be sure there are those in this land whose Irishness extends no further than having an Irish ancestor, wearing shamrocks and funny looking clothes, and drinking. You will find these people in many groups, and in some form in Ireland as well. But their are many more of Irelands grandchildren who love that land and the culture of our forebearers as much or more as those that live there. I think specifically of Aine, InOBU, meself, and many others here. We study the music, all of the music, we study the politic, we study the language. The retaining of our identity as the Irish in America is a chosen thing and a lifelong love. It is not merely an accident of location of birth, but a choice we have made. To have someone, anyone, generalize about us and categorize us unfairly is not tolerable. And to have some person who has never been to war, as I have, suggest that I don't understand its consequences is something that I will not allow to go unchallenged. And finally, to suggest that I don't understand the politics involved is also intolerable. I am interested in the six counties having peace. I love the land of my grandparents and want for it to finally and forever be at peace. But it must be a just peace.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Tim
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 12:11 PM

Fair play to you Mick, you've made your position very clear. Try reading "Bandit Country" by Toby Harnden. 1999. ISBN 0 340 71736 x. This will put you in the pic about the IRA in South Armagh, "the fighters" there do have a very influential leader and it's not Gerry Adams. Harnden is an educated English writer, I've corresponded with him by email, he's as about objective as it's possible to be (his girlfriend is Irish) IN MY OPINION!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:31 PM

Wonderful tip, Tim. I will be at the local bookseller Monday and pick this up. Thanks. I knew they didn't follow Adams, but was not aware of who the leader was. Thanks for setting me straight. I love the name "Bandit Country". It is a term we used also to refer to heading into enemy held turf. Can't wait to read it. The fact that he is English is not as pertinent to me as his spin on this. I am anxious to read it.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 12:26 PM

With regard to my post of 29 March at 1:02 PM. Bald Eagle has responded to my offer of working out our differences using Personal Messages instead of here in the threads. That part is private. But he has pointed out that my use of the term Baldy and the phrase "poor baby" have caused offense. I used the term Baldy as a play on his Mudcat name, but it was taken differently. I apologize for this slight. With regard to the term "poor baby", I was quite simply being a smart ass. I apologize for this as well. With regard to the substance of my remarks, I stand with them. But the personal remarks should have been left out. I sincerely apologize for them.

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 12:37 PM

Brendy:

My first impulse was to invite you to put one of your socks in your gob, but I decided I would try to refrain from shooting off my mouth. I feel your rude remark was uncalled for. If you seriously want to propose that the rebels of Ireland (whoever that includes) have resorted to no murders, over the centuries, I would be really interested in your views. And let me hasten to add, I think that in some cases, given the machinations fielded against them, they could claim extreme provocation. But my comment about preferring high song to low murder is still absolutely true. I think it is safe to say that the songs of Irish rebellion have gathered many more sympathizers to their cause than the hard physical facts of their efforts to cure the situation with violent means.

I am sure that if I am wrong about this, Big Mick will round me up alongside the head in short order; but since he has always spoken decently and courteously, I'd be more inclined to be educated by him!

Regards,

A.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: paddymac
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 04:24 PM

Isn't it amazing how an innocent thread which has lain dormant for 17 months can be resurrected and stir the passions in ways that exceed the thread itself? Most of us mere mortals fall victim to attacks of flippancy on occasion, but of all the places to find animated discussion, none seem to me to surpass the Mudcat in those most precious of human commodities - courtesy and civility. Witness the exchanges above. I certainly don't mean to imply that there are no clods in the churn, but mostly, I find 'catters to be a civilized lot, in spite of our respective idiosyncrasies. A delightful place.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Ferret
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 04:35 PM

Hi Mick long time no hear.

I thought this thread was long dead, (old threads never died, they just smell that way). The purpose of the original question was to make shore that I would not get it wrong and upset some one. As this is a very dialect subject

On the BA in the north. If you have wolves bothering your sheep so you get a pack of Rotviller's to keep the wolves away you should not be surprised when the dog do more damage than the wolves. Now are the dogs to blame for being dog? Or The IDIOTS who gave them the job.

Soldiers are trained to fight in wars (well in the 1960's) not to be policemen. As for the Para's like all Parachute troops they are trained to be shock troops and are ment to be like letting a pit-bull of the lead That is why we have an army & a policeforce. It is very dangerous to swap them round.

And as Big Mick & Big Tim have both said so well, The people of Ireland have spoken it is up to us all to listen. The time is for jaw, jaw not war, war, with a lot of hear, hear as well.

I have a lot of friends in both the north and the south, from a former standard bearer with the orange order to second generation I.R.A. and all stops in-between and the one and only thing they agree on is it is time for a peaceful solution to the problem. The gun and the bomb are not NOW the solution. As a Dublin friend said to me "we all have Irish Alzheimer's disease, we forget every thing but the grudges"

Max If this thread makes it for another 18 months can we give it a Birthday party.

Síocháin agus maithiúnas. All the best Ferret

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Brendy
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 05:21 PM

And who are the 'Rebels of Ireland', Amos?

And how come you don't know my views already?

Is it that you suffer from the same dearth of attention span, so prevalent among many others in this forum "I think it is safe to say that the songs of Irish rebellion have gathered many more sympathizers to their cause than the hard physical facts of their efforts to cure the situation with violent means."

Exactly how safe is it to assume that? Amos. I don't give a shit whether I, or anyone else educates you.
Or whether you become educated at all, for that matter!.

But come out with ignorant (in the uninformed sense) suppositions, and 'takes' on the situation, and more than you inviting me to put my sock into my 'gob', or any other part of my anatomy, for that matter, I will ensure that you eat your words. And the more you insist, the bigger your meal will be!

You know NOTHING of which you speak, Amos. And a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Stick to subjects that adequately reflect your depth of understanding, my man, and you wont run into 'difficulties' like me.

But for ***** sake (insert any deity you feel like) don't hit us with shite about 'low murders and high song'. Neither of which I think you would recognise should you be crucified to a wooden floor above a pub in the Shankill Road.

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Apr 01 - 01:24 PM

Thomas Davis wrote "music is the first faculty of the Irish" and "ballads are worth a thousand harangues". I was thinking about what I said above on the role of the IRA in 1969-70 and then was reminded of Sean Treacy's comment in 1919 "we'll have to kill someone and make the bloody enemy organise". So, with Dan Breen et al, he went out and shot two Irish Catholic policemen dead at Soloheadbeg and kicked off the War of Independence.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 01 - 03:39 PM

Gee, Brendy, you're pretty committed, obviously. I should be so lucky as to qualify. On the other hand, fuck you and your crusty supremacy.

A

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 01:39 AM

Committed to a world where NO-ONE experiences oppression and injustice, Amos. That I am.

"On the other hand, fuck you and your crusty supremacy."

ROTFLMAO.

What a guy. LOL.

There has been nothing 'supreme' about my experiences, at all, Amos, as a child, youth, or adult, in the North of Ireland.

People who sit in ivory towers, like you, speak in sound bytes, and tsk tsk about things they only see and hear on the CBS Evening News, and the like, while they lie secure in the knowledge that no such atrocity could ever visit them in their safe, mediocre existence, deserve all the wake-up calls they get.

WAKE UP AMOS!!

And define 'crusty' for me, while you're at it.

High song (in the sense that it is used here) comes from low murder.
Otherwise we wouldn't have songs like Roddy McCorley, The Rising of the Moon, Joe McDonnell, Only our Rivers run free, etc., etc.

But I would gladly sacrifice the existence of those songs, if the reasons for their writing didn't exist in the first place.

As I told the German owner of an electronics factory I used to work in, and where I was a Shop Steward (back in the old rat-race days), that I would much prefer if there was no need for Trade Unions. But that tyrants like him unfortunately necessitated them.

So the next time you set up your music stand, and delve into the learned sheets of the latest edition of 'Rise up and Sing', be careful not to put the wee page stabilisers over the title of the song.

Heaven forbid that you would sing anything that stems from a low murder. Heaven forbid that any of the pain and frustration, and pleas for justice contained therein should touch you and manifest itself in your singing.

Heaven forbid, Amos, that you FEEL.

B.
(I have hope for everybody)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 04:13 AM

The reference to South Armagh as "bandit country" annoys me. The people from South Armagh don't like it, because the term was coined by a British cabinet minister, whose name escapes me at the moment. South Armagh is being used by the British military, as well as the U.N, the U.S. and the Canadians as a proving ground for various manoeuvres and tactics, mostly involving helicopter intimidation of the local folks. They wouldn't dream of practising on a village in Kent, or Sussex, or a village in Scotland or Wales. Other counties in the North have been getting grants from Britain and Europe for development and tourism, but when Armagh - an historically important part of Ireland- applies for financial aid or development assistance, they hear:"Armagh? That's Bandit Country. Sorry." That's why Tommy Makem has been trying to make his cultural/historical/ musical school a successful annual event there. And he resents the term "bandit-country," and will not use it in reference to his home.

My two cents' worth.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 04:31 AM

Merlyn Rees, not Maggie, as commonly thought.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 04:48 AM

PS, bit disingenuous there Seamus, I know that South Armagh should have been ceded to the Free State by the Boundary Commission in 1924 but villages in Kent, Wales, etc haven't been responsible for the deaths of 17, or is it 18, British soldiers, as has Crossmaglen. The spiral of retaliation, reprisal and revenge works both ways. Tommy Makem hasn't exactly helped the bridge building process with a song like Four Green Fields. However good luck for the future, especially with the efforts of all at the Ti Chulainn Cultural Activity Centre in Mullaghbawn.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 05:28 AM

"The spiral of retaliation, reprisal and revenge works both ways."

Wrong Tim. Retaliation is a one-way street, that comes from, among other things, holding a people down.

But your certain insight would have been of enormous help in the writing of The Stalker Report.

However your line seems to be that if we didn't sing songs like Four Green Fields; i.e. just lie down and don't complain, well then, every thing would be just hunky-dory.

No problem, Tim. As long as you're happy.

Did you know that the Romans had the good sense to leave Ireland alone; they took one look at the place, decided we were a docile breed, called the place Hibernia, and promptly left. They never uttered the words "Croppy Lie Down"

Or as another senior (now), ex-cabinet minister put it:
"Ireland is not about religion, it is about face, and the keeping of it."

As far as using south Armagh (my home county) as a training ground for NATO troops is concerned, you should canvass your local politician to experiment a bit in Kent, Sussex and the like, and then not listen to the objectors.

Witness, then, the formation of the Kent Liberation Army.

And you have the audacity to call us 'bandits'

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Jimmy C
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 11:14 AM

Tim,

"but villages in Kent, Wales, etc haven't been responsible for the deaths of 17, or is it 18, British soldiers, as has Crossmaglen." - That is true, only because the soldiers were not there doing what they have been doing in South Armagh, if they did go there and if they acted in the same manner as they do in South Armagh then there may very well be a numbers of soldiers killed or at least an outcry from the local people, which probably would have been heard and acted upon by the government. All the complaints from the Crossmaglen area have fallen on deaf ears and yet again the people have to take action on their own. Try getting awakened every morning at 3.am by helicopters flying low over your house almost on a nightly basis, try getting stopped at gunpoint and harrassed 3 to 4 times a day when going to work or grocery shopping or just driving to see friends and the outcry would be deafening from these peaceful villages in Wales and Kent. Or yet again try getting stopped on the way to hospital to visit sick parents and getting stopped, having 4 rifles pointed into the car and your wife subjected to verbal sexual comments. This happened, I was home from Canada and staying in Toomebridge. On the way to the Mater hospital in Belfast in a car with my brother and his Scottish born wife we were stopped, the car was searched and the comments from the soldiers about my sister-in-law were disgusting. There's not much we could do with so many rifles pointed at us and just waiting for us to make a move. These thing occured daily in the north of Ireland especially in South Armagh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 11:40 AM

Brendy: your views are so one-dimensional. I'm just as Irish and Catholic as you but I believe that simply taking one side all the time and ignoring and propagandizing down the other has absolutely no future. And I didn't call you "bandit", I merely quoted the title of a book for a guy in America.

Jimmy C: Those whirring 3 am helicopters etc, keeping peacable citizens from their sleep will not be found over Kent, wales, etc.

I'm not just anti-IRA but anti- all terrorism. In the Irish context it is so counterproductive and downright impractical. Ask Gerry Adams, that's why he's talking to Trimble, etc. VIOLENCE SOLVES NOTHING AND INDEED ONLY MAKES THINGS WORSE. Cut out the macho posturing and get round the table.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:12 PM

"Cut out the macho posturing and get round the table"
The Nationalists are there, Tim. Which is more than I can say for Trimble, Paisley, and Co.

"Those whirring 3 am helicopters etc, keeping peacable citizens from their sleep will not be found over Kent, wales, etc."
Perish the thought, Tim. But the Brits don't think twice about doing it to other peaceable citizens in certain other parts of your United Kingdom.

"Brendy: your views are so one-dimensional... blah blah blah"
Before you can see through my eyes, Tim, you have to first stand in my shoes. What part of your 'Irish Catholicness' has? Whatever part of you that has done, is obviously all right now, Jack.

Don't claim to speak for anyone when you flaunt this 'Irish Catholicness' of yours. Your definition of objectiveness is quoting an author who insults everybody within a 20 mile radius of Darkley, Co. Armagh, just by the title of his book.

And you call me one-dimensional!!

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Jimmy C
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:54 PM

Tim,

I am anti-terrorism as well, that is why I am anti-british army, they are the real instigators of terrorism in South Armagh and other parts, A peace keeping force has to be impartial and they are not, the never were and they never will be as far as Ireland is concerned. If living under the point of foreign guns, if living under the threat of daily questioning and abuse, if living under a foreign government who let me rot as a second class citizen for 50 years, if all this and more drives me to the point of taking up arms to change the system, by shooting the soldiers, by blowing up bridges, by disrupting their commerce, by bombing their railroad lines and government offices - if all this makes me a terrorist then Winston Churchill is then a terrorist because these are his words, not mine. If Germany had been successful and invaded England it was the intention of Churchill to form small bands of men, willing to take the fight to the germans in the exact same manner as the I.R.A. are doing to the british. In short the I.R.A. are doing exactly what those same soldiers would do if the situation was reversed. South Armagh was peaceful until the army arrived.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:57 PM

Can we at least agree to differ on this one?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:59 PM

No

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 01:15 PM

Poor Brendy.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 01:21 PM

Nothing poor about me, Tim.

Your argument has (and will continue to be) trashed.

Patronisation is always the last resort of the person with nothing else to contribute.

You're a gas man - for a west-Brit

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 02:34 PM

Brendy:

Not only are you twisting what I said to suit your own fire-breathing purposes, but you are barking at a synthetic version of some other dog. For all your high-spirited dialectical banter, you're sparring with your own effing projections.

I do really like your pigeyed rhetoric, though. I just don't care for your rent-a-costume-from-Brendy business. You asked a while back why I don't already know your views, and this might have something to do with the answer.

A

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 02:49 PM

Brendy - politics is the art of the possible. Your route is not possible. The IRA lost and can never achieve OUR aim of a United Ireland, "Gaelic and free", through force. There are too many equally fanatical loyalists, many fuelled by theological hatred and bigotry which makes them even more dangerous than armed republicans. A civil war in NI could last longer than the lifetime of anyone alive on earth today. You really must try and start controlling your visceral emotions and start applying reason and cold logic, like John Mitchel. Go back to sleep or get out more often, and get real.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 04:06 PM

"For all your high-spirited dialectical banter, you're sparring with your own effing projections."

Amos, you haven't a clue what I'm on about.

Enlighten us all and explain that italic'd remark. You still haven't told me what your definition of 'crusty' is.

Or do you just fire words off to see how good they look on paper. (a common past-time for your sort).

The reason you don't know my views is because you lack the experiential wherewithal to totally grasp them. Nothing more, but potentially less.

As for your notion, Tim that my route 'is not possible', I would also ask the same question. What is my route?

You can be damned sure it's not up the Garvaghy Road.

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 04:15 PM

"A civil war in NI could last longer than the lifetime of anyone alive on earth today"

So where have you been for the past 800 years, Rumplestilskin.

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Jimmy C
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 07:47 PM

Tim.

Lets get back to music as you suggested.

Slan

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 08:08 PM

well this is one of my pet issues. i'm neither irish nor of ebglish descent, i'm scott's gael and french but i have read a bit on the troubles and was in belfast in 1970(or maybe 1969, i'm getting old and losing my memory without a date book).

i'd like to make two points . first i witnessed , as a young backpacking tourist, the protestant mabs going up the streets of cathloc neighbourhoods, and buring people out of theit homes. as a canadian, of stated descent, i couldn't believe what i wsaw. the police and army who were armed and only out numbered by the crowd by about two to one(the crowd was unarmed,) did nothng but cheerr them on. this altered my views of "the mother of parliaments" ever since. so i'm with big mick on his interpretation of events in the north.

also i would like people to go out and read the tripartite report on human right's that was published by the european commission on human rights in the eighties. (the three in the tri were the european high court of justice, the european commision on human rights,and the united nations commision on human rights. extensive excertps were published by the economist magizine--hardly a pro rebel source. there it was found that the british army was regularly using torture, arrest without trial, and assination. the internal security wing of british intelligence were found to be giving their security files on suspected rebels to the protestant paramilitary and then arming them. it was estimated that about 3500 people were assinated. mostly union leaders, and other community organizers who had nothing to do with sectarian politics. when questioned in parliament the british governemt would not deny the allegations.

these finding resulted in fines against the british government as a violater of the euro union standards of human rights. terrorist are not good guys but sometimes people are left with little choice. the continuing willingness of the british governmant to engage in such tactics,and as an historian i can attest these are ancient tactics,is damning.

they have been able to get away with it due to their controll of the media but that's ending and europeans, and others no longer buy the propaganda used to cover such antidemocraqtic tactics.

oh yeah the commission also stated that there had never been a free election in northern ireland that would meet euro community standards.

now i come from a country with a lot british parliamentary influence and like to believe the best of that tradition, but i can't deny these kind of abuses.

please excuse my terrible typing--i have rather poor eyesight

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 08:23 PM

You know something, my friends. Of all the threads on this subject that have ever been on the Mudcat, this has been the most telling. I will not comment on any of the above, as this is between people that I presume have lived or are living it. It would be foolish for those of us trying to understand and contribute to the effort in the North of Ireland to try and take any side. I will only say that my wish is for a JUST peace for the people of the North. Not much has changed in my view but my understanding of the depth of the conflict has been increased exponentially. While I cannot do anything here to heal the divide, I can thank you for what I am learning. May I be so presumptious as to suggest that you go back and read one another's comments and climb into the other skin. The one thing I do see is a common goal, but divergent opinions as to the route. I must say, Tim, that given the type of experiences described by Jimmy and that I know my friend Brendy has experienced, it is a bit much to expect much different in terms of response. And I guess I would be grateful to hear your response to this. As best as I can tell from afar, it is the Republicans that have held the peace, under great pressure and in spite of provocation from the Loyalists. It is the Republicans who have their churches trashed and their families abused so that others can exercise their "right" to provoke them. The point, it seems to me, is that the Republicans and Catholics are being asked to do the majority of the concessions despite the fact that their concerns for justice are not being fully addressed. Is it not the Republicans that have agreed to International monitoring of their arms? It seems to me that peace is the goal, but a just peace that fully embraces the rights of the significant minority to live with dignity and respect. I don't disagree that their are rogue elements within the Republican movement, but the point is well taken that the terrorism you describe is retaliatory in nature due to a rogue police force that has been condemned by every watch organization up to and including Amnesty International. The way of peace requires negotiation and concession. I understand this better than most, given my quarter century as a union organizer and community organizer/activist in the Saul Alinsky mode. I understand politics, again better than most, as I have run political campaigns up to and including a U.S. Presidential candidates. And I certainly understand the tragedy of war. The point is, I understand what you are postulating. But I don't understand how anyone can expect a people that have been so put upon by the very elements that continue to harass them daily and yearly to just roll over and expect them to just trust the same people committing those acts. And to summarily just give up the last and only bargaining chip in the assurance that the fox is going to just behave around the chickens. After 800 years, the old joke about the lamb lying down with the lion, but not getting much sleep comes to mind. Negotiation is the answer, and the people have demanded that. And, it seems to me, the Republicans have embraced that but the other side demands surrender instead of negotiation. I ask these questions with all respect.

SEAMUS KENNEDY, please accept my apologies for the unintended slight. I, in fact, ordered the book today because I want to read it. But I meant no slight. That term was used in the unit I operated in to designate operations in enemy territory. If I were half as enlightened as I claim to be, I would have spotted the insult. Thanks for the heads up.

Please keep this going. I have always appreciated Brendy's directness, and IMHO this thread is one of the reasons why he is so valuable. Polite conversation may be pleasant, but it doesn't get to the heart of it as quickly as calling the shovel by its proper name. All parties are appreciated by this Irish American.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 09:26 PM

Brendy:

You're absolutely right.

A

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 10:42 PM

This thread has been quite informative so far. I'm afraid all I could offer is second and third hand rhetoric, spewed by drunks in pubs, where we have sessions, so I'll just remain here and learn. As I have stated in other threads before, I don't have to live with the consequences, either way, of a war/police action in the North. I'm not entitled to a vote as to what the North should do. I can echo the hope for a just peace, but I don't know what the route should be. Please keep this thread going. I'd like to learn from people that have some valid experience to offer.

Rich

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Brendy
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 12:55 AM

Thank you Amos.

I know.

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Jimmy C
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 01:28 AM

Mike, you are correct (once again), most nationialist and the vast majority of loyalists all want peace, but it will have to be a JUST PEACE as you stated. There will be factons and hooligans who will try to scuttle the peace process either for personal gain or else they just like the idea of the troubles resuming, This week the leader of the Real I.R.A. has been arrested in the republic and will face charges,they are a dangerous element and do not have a great deal of support from the people. On the loyalists side there are many of the same ilk. Just last night for instance a gang of thugs from the Tiger Bay area came into my old neighbourhood of the New Lodge as a raiding party, terrorizing families and left one woman seriously injured. These actions, have the potential of sending the whole province back to the dark days of not so long ago. Anyway let us all hope and pray that cooler heads will prevail.

Also Mick, please ignore the response from Galway, she does not know what she is talking about. It has to be the most assinane response I have ever read on this site. She obviously grew up in Galway and knows very little about the north. But to insult Irish Americans or Irish Canadians reeks of hypocrisy. For years it was the dollars from these "plastic Paddies' I believe she called them, it was their dollars that kept the economy of Galway and the west of Ireland afloat, thanks to the tourist industry. I guess she forgets things like that. Just let the Americans stop going there for a few years and she will surely change her tune. I have met many Irish Americans who know more and have a genuine love for Ireland that far surpasses many people in the republic. I am a dyed in the wool belfast catholic and this may sound strange but I have more in common with the loyalists in the north than I have with many catholics in the republic. The response from Galway will explain why I feel that way.

BTW Ollaimh, thanks for your input although your figure of 3500 is I believe a typo. It is true that many names of individuals were passed from the Police and Army to loyalist paramilitaries that did result in death but I don't think it was that high. About 3600 people in total lost their lives but the IRA were responsible for many of them.

Now can we get back to discussing music. please.

Oiche maith anois agus slan.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 01:52 AM

Mick, no need to apologize. Thanks for the great posts. You too, Brendy, and Jimmy C. When a large, well- armed force abuses an entire populace for the actions of a small group of said populace who are responding to the aformentioned abuse, you can bet that the entire populace isn't going to take the abuse lying down. Like Tommy Sands says. "An eye for an eye till everyone is blind." Who stops first?

Seamus

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 04:53 AM

As for the number of deaths and who's responsible for them there is a good source on the web, Sutton's index of deaths. A short summary from that book follows, but you can got there (along my link) and do your own crosstabulations by simple mouseclicks.

Wolfgang

This book lists 3,479 deaths which are directly linked to the conflict in Northern Ireland, and which occurred between July 1969 and 31st December 1998. The discrepancy between this figure and the official British figure arises because of differences of interpretation in a small number of cases, and because Northern Ireland Office figures relate to deaths occurring in Northern Ireland only. The following types of death have been excluded from this index because they are not regarded as directly due to the conflict, or I have considered it inappropriate to include them.

1.Accidental shootings of any individual, whether by members of a military organisation or by civilians.
2.Persons killed during rows or fights between individual people, whether they are members of a military organisation or not.
3.Persons killed during casual street violence, which is clearly not politically motivated.
4.Persons dying of natural causes, for example heart attacks, brought on by an incident during the conflict.
5.Suicides.
6.Road accidents, whether they involve military vehicles, or are driven by persons involved in a military operation, unless there is evidence of a deliberate intention to run down the victim.
7.Helicopter crashes and accidents.

Of the total deaths, 3,231 have occurred in Northern Ireland, 105 in the Irish Republic, 125 in Britain, and 18 elsewhere in Europe. Republican groups have been responsible for 2,043 of the deaths, Loyalist groups for 990, British Forces for 363, and the Irish Republic's Forces for five. For the remaining 78 deaths, it has not been possible or appropriate to identify the killing group. In the analysis that follows, the deaths caused by the perpetrators are further broken down by broad category of victim.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Big Tim
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 05:58 AM

Brendy: what you've had in the north has not been civil war but guerrilla warfare, limited and sporadic; albeit nasty, brutish and deadly.

I take consolation from the fact that you represent only a very small minority; defeated, demoralised and marginalised, willing to take up a gun, a bomb, or in the case of Eamonn Collins, a knife, to impose your mindless will. You say you would sit round a table with Trimble but you have to offer more than that, you must change within your heart, you must recognise and indeed embrace the legitimacy of the unionist tradition, as they must yours. "Parity of esteem" cuts both ways. Or to put it more simply; both traditions must write MUTUAL TOLERANCE into their manifestoes, and mean it. You must recognise that the Irish problem is a mere accident of history and that modern rational minds must act to effect change for the future. You must take on board, embrace and learn to love the wise words of Norman Porter,a unionist, addressed to old fashioned Orangeism, for they apply equally to you. Trimble has made that seismic shift within his heart, as I have within mine, from Vanguard towards Civic Unionism but for his pains is now having to backtrack to appease his grassroots and protect his parliamentary seat in the forthcoming election. Who would you rather deal with: Trimble, or Geoffrey Donaldson, or, God forbid, Peter Robinson and Ian Paisley? In fact they won't deal with you, they won't even talk to you. You are playing into the hands of these loyalist fundamentalists. Move forward, grasp the nettle, command the moral high ground, isolate the bastards. The language of Civic Republicanism is beginning to creep into the vocabulary of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness (a distant relative of mine from the Illies Townland near Buncrana). Adams is pragmatic enough to see which way the wind has been blowing for the last 15 or so years. You are still out on that limb, creaking and swaying under the weight of your own blindness and of public opinion both north and south.

Brendy, you're one of Bill Clinton's "drunks". You've had far too many long, deep and cold political pints in the old Sean South Arms of Romantic Republicaniam. You've had too many lost political weekends, lost weekdays and lost decades. Come in from the cold, your time is up. You have to battle and face down your political and cultural delirium tremens, bathe your red, rheumy, political eyes in the clear waters of the milk white Boyne and stagger out, free at last, into the cold light of day. It may seem impossible but it can be achieved, one hour, one day at at time, you will be a much happier man and Ireland will be a much happier place.

Mick: all that about burning Catholic churches, etc is true but it's only half the story. Orange halls are also being constantly torched, more justifiably you might say, but in fact both are just easily identifiable symbols of the other side.

I now close my correspondence on this thread. Goodnight and joy be with you all.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Brendy
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 07:28 AM

"I take consolation from the fact that you represent only a very small minority; defeated, demoralised and marginalised, willing to take up a gun, a bomb, to impose your mindless will.

You are as far off the mark as Amos, Timothy, old stick.
If you had have spent your short time here at the Mudcat a little more constructively, and read back over a few of the threads already on this subject, you would know exactly what views I have.

But you're at your patronising best when you say:

"Brendy, you're one of Bill Clinton's "drunks". You've had far too many long, deep and cold political pints in the old Sean South Arms of Romantic Republicaniam. You've had too many lost political weekends, lost weekdays and lost decades. Come in from the cold, your time is up. You have to battle and face down your political and cultural delirium tremens, bathe your red, rheumy, political eyes in the clear waters of the milk white Boyne and stagger out, free at last, into the cold light of day. It may seem impossible but it can be achieved, one hour, one day at at time, you will be a much happier man and Ireland will be a much happier place."

You can Fuck off, Tim. You and all that belongs to you.
Don't ever presume to know what would make me a happier man.

For as sure as you have condemned my family and friends who still live in the North of Ireland to the same fate of terrorism by the Loyalist mobs, you have spat on the graves of people I have loved dearly, who have been killed by them, and their green-uniformed associates.

You are a wanker of the highest order, Tim, and a wind-up merchant without equal; sitting there telling us that you are an Irishman, just like me. Bollocks!

You are a cunt, pal. You would let my family die, you bastard. Is it any wonder there has been war in the six counties with narrow minded assholes like you cunt-assing around the place telling us what we should be doing to solve "The Irish Problem".

It ain't the "Irish Problem", sunshine, and you ain't no Irishman. Not any more.

You're a fucking west-Brit, and if you've nothing better to do with your time here at the Mudcat other than compose badly written dirges about "The Twelve Steps of Recovery from Political Vacuums", go and read a bit of background.

I take it you know how to do that.

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: Ferret
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 08:52 AM

Jimmy C As I live in Kent not far from R.A.F. Manston I get woken up at all times of the night by KC 135, C 130, F111E, E3, C141, C 5 Galaxy's, A 10, F15, & the odd B 52. And they not even are own air force but the US. we get continues heavy gunfire from the proving ranges 15 miles away. And the army are band from most of the pub's, clubs and other places of entertainment, but so far no dead solders. And I was not aware that many had herd of the K.L.F. (Kent Liberation Front) out side of Kent.

And if we all go for "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.

Well gust end up a land of blind and tooth les people

It has not been lost on the British people that the IRA have for the most part kept to there ceasefire which is more than can be said for the so called loyalists. Or that there has been no offer to decommission loyalist's arms. Decommissioning is a two way street. 800 years of fighting has not altogether worked we must let all the people of Ireland decide not gust who we agree with.

Loyalist gangs making attacks on Catholics for the most part dose not get on the news here in the uk much. (So much for a free press) As a Brit I am proud of my Country BUT NOT MY GOVERNMENT Remember that the first victim of the British Empire was and still is the common English man. And just like the US, the Irish Republic and most democracies Government only listen till they get your votes then they get very deaf. Till the next time comes round.

When some thing happens we need to know and when the press/government wont tell us people like you all need to. If you don't know that you don't know some thing, you don't know you need to ask.

Thanks to all as this has made good and informative reading.

All the best Ferret

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Query: Irish Rebel Songs
From: GUEST,Victoria McDonnell
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 08:06 AM

Well, I've been gone for a few days and this exploded. Forst, let me say I didn't grow up in Ireland at all, much less Galway, I was born and raised in Northern CA, and am very much American. I've lived here in Galway though with my husband who is a Native Galwegian but whose family has plenty of ties in the North.

I don't have a problem with people in the US who claim Irish decent, I certainly do, it's the ones who spout of politics from another country that they know little about when they can hardly follow their own gov't. I love trad, including the rebel songs, and the history they were built on. My problem now is with the modern IRA which has turned into more of a mafia of organised crime than anyhting else. it served a great purpose once upon a time, and many fought hard for the protection of the Catholics in the North (my fmaily included), but now far too much of it is about black market drug.weapon dealing and an occassional flare of anti-protestant violence. The rival prot. groups are fighting more with *each other* right now than anything else, and the IRA has been reduced to thuggish behaviour. This saddens me, the people in the north of both sides *do* need a resolution, but street violence provoked on both sides is hardly a solution, and those people who continue to fund these "mobs" are doing so often with little education as to what their money really goes to. The romantic notion of liberty for a suppressed people is no longer a reality and somethign needs to be done. I get upset by people like Saiose who post random propoganda to that effect when the truth is that's the stuff history is made of and now the only fix is some good negotiation and a reformed gov't that allows for both groups.

We solved plenty of the problems at home in the South (not all, but it's better) with the civil rights movement, and learned that violence and groups like the KKK on both sides weren't going to achieve anything other than more anger and ignorance. The North here needs the same.