BS: Are we less civilised?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: GUEST,Big A Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 02:24 PM

It means Tebbit despises freedom and liberalism and eveything that people put their lives on the line to achieve in the 50's and 60's,

He hates the zeitgeist of that era. he sets no value on it. His holiday destination is the round the Victorian fireside. >much as your is....

The noble savage isn't description - its reference to a school of thought coined by Rousseau. No doubt someone who would be as comfortable in the teepee as yourself.

i wonder which one would get the vapours first...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 02:11 PM

I don't really give a fuck about Weymouth Pier to be honest.

I do, however, care a great deal about those whom you have chosen to describe as 'noble savages'....

And I can assure you that the term you have chosen there brings much pain and heartache to many gentle and deeply spiritual people who, even to this day, have to live with that atrocious, degrading and racist term.

They are anything BUT 'savages', for many of the Native Americans and First Nations People have an Innate Wisdom and a Deep Spirituality which stretches right back through their People.

It truly hurts and upsets many of them to be depicted or described as 'savages'.

And of course it was those who created the Holocaust of their People, who were the Uncivilised Savages in the first place....

"But swap Victorian values for Native American - and we could almost be listening to Norman Tebbit."

I have no idea what you mean with that sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 01:45 PM

Lizzie, I'm sure is a nice person - she'd rather help people than hurt them

But swap Victorian values for Native American - and we could almost be listening to Norman Tebbit.

Right now theres a load of people who want to demolish Weymouth Pavilion - Weymouth Council , in fact. That's because people have no respect for the values of the 1950's and 1960's.

They turn their noses at the people who created the spirit of liberalism.

As Martin Carthy said, if you didn't get yourself liberated in the 1960's - that's your problem.

Its always more difficult ro appreciate the limited virtues of what is under your nose than in some serendipity inhabited by noble savages.

Sorry if you and John Mac don't get it. That's why he finds politicians and their constant inability to operate in la lal land rather than down here on earth, such a mystery.

And boogaloo to you baby!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 01:16 PM

Time to close the thread due to the uncivilised behaviour of the Lizzie baiters.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 12:37 PM

And who am I, Liz? Do tell. After all, you MUST know that as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 12:06 PM

Getting back to the subject of the thread.....

Your highly uncivilised comments, Greg, only show you up for who you are.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: number 6
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:55 AM

Hmmmmm   .....   let our own behaviour be evident on how this thread has evolved to answer the question .... "are we less civilized"

biLL .. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:45 AM

Get OFF your feckin' soapbox of 'Let's make Lizzie look bad!'

I don't have have a soapbox, Liz - you're very proficient at making YOURSELF look bad and hardly need any outside help.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:41 AM

Al you're spoiling a serious thread with your adolescent fixition on annoying Lizzie.
One might begin to think you were stalking her.
Or should I just ask the mods to shut this thread down, because of trolling?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:31 AM

Al, I banned you from my Facebook page, because of the highly insulting (to me) comment you made on there about Native Americans and how you hoped my 'fantasies' would come true concerning them....

I was so fecking stunned when I read what you said.

Do you not understand ***ANYTHING*** about me and why I have such respect for so many Indigenous Peoples?????

Or, do you simply reduce *everything* to the most basic sexual idea possible?

Geez!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: GUEST,Big Al whittle
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:24 AM

Theres a lot to be said for the Hindu Kush
And going deep into the bush
But the manners of bushmen are somewhat rude
And I can see Johns not really in the mood
so I'll sail no more the seas of innuendo
And bring this fantasy to an end-oh!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 09:58 AM

Al. put a sock in it, there's good chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: GUEST,Big Al whittle
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 09:40 AM

Just imagine what fun we could have Lizzie.
We could do a remake of Walkabout. I could be the Jenny Agutter character in a mini skirt and school blazer, and you could be that bloke with dead iguanas on his belt and flies jumping off him - that would be both our tastes catered for...!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: GUEST,Big al whittle
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 09:09 AM

Oh Lizzie! let's get all indigenous! Let me chuck spears in your rainforest, and I'll let you play with my boomerang!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 07:23 AM

Kinda sums it up nicely, John..

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 07:16 AM

Tom Lehrer said it best.



"One week of every year is designated National Brotherhood Week. This is just one of many such weeks honoring various worthy causes. One of my favorites is National Make-fun-of-the-handicapped Week which Frank Fontaine and Jerry Lewis are in charge of as you know. During National Brotherhood Week various special events are arranged to drive home the message of brotherhood. This year, for example, on the first day of the week Malcolm X was killed which gives you an idea of how effective the whole thing is. I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that. Here's a song about National Brotherhood Week."

Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks.
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's American as apple pie.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Muslims,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 06:41 AM

'some', Ed.
I stand corrected..... xx

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 06:27 AM

"But, we also need more men who do not lust after those women in the same way western men do"

I am a so called "western man" and don't recall ever lusting in any such way. Maybe you meant to use the word "some" to avoid unfairly including the innocent? I do not rule out that, possibly, "respect" only matters when it comes to some folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 06:06 AM

Are some jokes not fair to the sheep?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 05:34 AM

We do, Al....
But, we also need more men who do not lust after those women in the same way western men do, for they treat them with respect....

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 05:33 AM

I agree Lizzie, we need more indigenous people. Women running round with tiny loin cloths, naked and unashamed...

Did the National Geographical Magazine die in vain..?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 05:22 AM

>>>>...You'd think that Native Americans were the only people that ever got seriously shit on by the dominant White culture world-wide.

Give it a freakin' rest.<<<<


I said 'Indigenous Peoples' YOU are the only one to have mentioned Native Americans.

Get OFF your feckin' soapbox of 'Let's make Lizzie look bad!' for keriste's sake!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 03:23 AM

The way I see it is that I am incredibly nice.

Stop worrying. I more than make up for these other buggers,

Gosh! What a splendid fellow!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 10:46 PM

I've experienced too much of the world and studied too much history to believe we have anything but the thinnest of veneers over our savagery.

For example, King Phillip's War, where the heads of both English and Indian were exhibited on poles in both Indian villages and places such as Boston and other, similar, things were done. Mangas Colorado and his fight against the Mexicans. "To Hell or to Connaught." My Lai in Vietnam can't hold a cndle to the Japanese in New Guinea or the Cabatuan Camp. Is what happened at Cowboy Wash different from Buchenwald or Mathausen? Are the gulags that different from the Siberian prisons of the czars or the prisons of Iran and Iraq?

The trickle of the bloody river continues to flow....

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 09:49 PM

Well said, Amos. That sounds like exactly the world I was hoping for (and indeed expecting) when I was a very young child. I was presently astonished to find out how many other young people (primarily the males at that time) didn't think that way at all when I arrived at school...I've remained somewhat astonished about it right to this day.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 08:38 PM

I think it was Gandhi who was asked for his opinion of Western civilization, and replied that he thought "it was a very good idea.".

We may fancy we are civilized in some way because we have conquered so many material problems, and have a steady food chain, more or less.

But the fact is that we haven't even begun to guess at what truly civilized life might be like--a world without hatred, hunger, brutality and without war. We haven't even begun to design the rudiments of civilization on that order of magnitude. The fact that we can lift pinkies with those of the right color and income level is laughable parody compared ot what the real thing would look like, I imagine.

One can hope.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 04:45 PM

Yes, those who are cannibals probably have always regarded those who are not as gutless "wimps" and "poofters", 6. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: number 6
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 04:06 PM

Good point Greg F. ... maybe that's why the Iroquois considered the Hurons to be inferior.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 04:02 PM

I dunno, 6 - the Hurons at least weren't cannibals, as far as I recollect.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: number 6
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 03:50 PM

" Many of them appear to have far more dignity and wisdom than us"

Hmmm ... I quess the Iroquois thought they were more were more dignified than the Hurons.

Humans are humans.

Once we no more categorize our fellow humans as black, white, red, gay, Jew, Catholic, Irish, Polish, German ..... etc. etc. ... then hopefully then, we will become civilized.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 03:39 PM

THE MERRY MINUET
(Sheldon Harnick)

Intro:

There are days in my life when everything is dreary
I grow pessimistic, sad and world weary.
But when I'm tearful and fearfully upset
I always sing this merry little minuet:

They're rioting in Africa
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain.

The whole world is festering
With unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans,
The Germans hate the Poles

Italians hate Yugoslavs
South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like anybody very much

But we can be grateful
And thankful and proud
That man's been endowed
With a mushroom shaped cloud

And we know for certain
That some happy day
Someone will set the spark off
And we will all be blown away

They're rioting in Africa
There's strife in Iran
What nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 03:13 PM

Apoliogies. Eliza - my comments were not directed at you personally.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 02:06 PM

I rather meant my remarks to apply generally, Greg, and not only to Native Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 01:53 PM

And then, there's the way Black folks were and are treated- if you want to talk about whites "feeling superior".

Or Irish in America in the 19th & early 20th C. Or Chinese. Or Vietnamese. Or Mexicans. Or Central Americans. Or Indians (from India) Or Pakistanis. Or Muslims. Or damn near anybody else.

You'd think that Native Americans were the only people that ever got seriously shit on by the dominant White culture world-wide.

Give it a freakin' rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 01:38 PM

I agree with you, Lizzie. We have no right to feel 'superior' to indigenous tribes. Many of them appear to have far more dignity and wisdom than us.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 08:50 AM

I think that many of those we have been told are 'Uncivilized', they being The Indigenous Peoples, are probably some of the most Civilized people on the planet these days.

Once, we were too, but we broke away from our Tribes...and went out to Party..haven't stopped for thousands of years..and now we're drowning in our 'Civilized Society' where so many give feck all about other people, other species, or Mother Earth.

We need to get back to 'Sacred' and 'We Are ALL Related' ASAP...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 07:11 AM

I'm totally civilised.


And I'll thump anyone who suggests otherwise :)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 06:53 AM

The Future of Humanity: a Lecture by Isaac Asimov

I'm an Asimov fan. That aside, I think many of you would enjoy that piece of writing.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 06:46 AM

I think our civilization began to disintegrate with the advent of two technologies: television and central heating.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 06:29 AM

I wonder if the lack of true socialising in families, neighbourhoods and communities is part of the problem? We seem to be more isolated than in previous centuries. Old people, single mums, teenagers in their rooms texting, families silent in front of the TV; there isn't much meaningful conversation or interaction. And the more detached from our fellows we become , the more aloof, aggressive and non-empathetic we are. I was much struck on a visit to London years ago, how people on the Tube sat stony-faced and avoided eye-contact. Here in Norfolk, you can't go on a bus without having a good old yak to somebody you've never met before, it just seems natural. And if you engage with people, you treat them with courtesy and kindness. This is civilsation.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 06:20 AM

I think we are less civilised toward one another. Even something as simple as please and thank you, are fast disappearing. People rarely give way on pavements, never mind when behind the wheel of a vehicle. Offering ones seat to an elderly or disbled person, has become an act of mythologicl proportions. and courtesy is, if not dead, on it's last legs.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 03:29 AM

Uh-huh. But if we look at human beings as individuals...then we see that there is an entire range of possibilities in each one of us, all the way from a "devil" at one end to an "angel" at the other, and everything else in between.

Civilization reflects that. You can see whichever side of the human condition you wish to reflect on when you look at it. We're sometimes very good, sometimes very bad, often in the gray areas between, and often conflicted.

So...what do you choose to reflect on? Why? And where does that leave you? We all have that choice in front of us, every moment of our lives. Best to choose carefully.

The very fact that we can even imagine being "better than other animals" (Meaning merciful? Forgiving? Altruistic? Loving? Compassionate?) means that the possibility of doing so...and the option...is always there, right in front of you, if you are willing to rise to the challenge.

We're all going to die at some point anyway, no matter what our strategies for survival are...so why not rise to the highest and best that we are capable of before that happens? Some have done so, and are remembered for it. All can do so. They just have to consciously make that choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: number 6
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 11:03 PM

Rapparee ..... I agree. Well said indeed.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 10:45 PM

I think, personally, that civilization is a very thin veneer with which we delude ourselves that we are better than other animals. The picture of the "genteel" Victorian Age, with its breakthroughs in science, medicine, the arts, ignores the abject and grinding poverty of millions. The Renaissance, the Age of Reason, medieval Europe, Japan, China -- all do the same. The "highly civilized" Spaniards killed the Caribs, Aztecs, Incas, and other peoples just as the US and British did to Iroquois, Seneca, Delawares, and others.

I shan't even go into the subject of deliberate wars.

Civilization? It's a beautiful city built by a river down which always flows a trickle of blood -- and sometimes the river overflows.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 09:23 PM

ollaimh... stop calling me a racist. And, answer my question on the first thread in which you called me a racist today.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 08:00 PM

Chongo answers with an emphatic "Yes!" to this question, but he means "compared to Chimpanzees". He is a bit biased, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 03:06 PM

There are some attributes of today that I admire and am proud of: more awareness of gratuitous hurt and avoiding it with more empathy, i.e. "political correctness", as in that most people realize that it is meant to make civilization smoother, more awareness of doing our part in improving our planet, or at least not hastening its destruction, more awareness of the value of our pets and the multi-layered costs of disrespecting them and their lives.

There are others, but I guess that what I admire is awareness of impacts.

On the other hand, what I consider alarming in our society is the things that deaden us and our instincts, and of that we have numerous examples.

I have read of Japanese examples of extreme violence in their everyday entertainment: stomach-turning graphics of gore.

I have come to believe that in western culture what we consider entertaining is no better.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 02:26 PM

Different can of worms there. The only thing I will say is that Parcel of Rogues is enjoyed by most Scots, highland or lowland. Most of us bear our grudges lightly here in the highlands.
Remembering the past is good, but we don't let it rule our lives in the present.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM

There does seem to be an interesting contrast that the courser we as a society become the more thin skinned we seem to be. No answers. Just an observation.

David E.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we less civilised?
From: ollaimh
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 01:49 PM

good luck with that, but when i hung around anglo folk groups i heard irish jokes and in western canada slanders about eastern canadians every day. when i was recently in england i went to a folk group where some one sang "a parcel of rougues in as nation". i said privately to one person, well i love to hear lowlandres sing about their selling out their nation with no apparant awareness that their co countrymen in the highlands were beinf decimated by famine and land loss. he siad i better not talk about that here.

i didn't push it but it looked to me like you can't talk about the ethnic cleansing done by the british empire.

on the bright side among other songs i sang lukey's boat and a few people knew the words to this newfoundland song.

and of course in the discussions about the murder of innocent irish protestors by the hard core racists of the british army at bloody sunday, and the subsequent cover up and criminalization and slander of the worst criminal sort, few acknowledge the criminal and racist behavior, and no one seems to be charging the murders with murder.

so civility? yeah the progressives used to try. few do now.

if you want a civil scoiety you have to acknowledge the evils of the past and not play pretend that they will go away. they never go away as long as the play pretend game is allowed to be used by racists to hide behind. few in the gaelic world, or the north american native world for that matter are vindicvtive, nor seeking any revenge. howeever simple open acknowledgemnent of the evils of the past and the refusal to allow continued cover ups, goes a long way to establishing civil society. without it there will never be one.

i do have to give david cameron some credit for acknowledging the wrong of the bloody sunday cover up and for acknowledging while in pakistan that many of the world's ethnic stfifes were the responsiblity of the british. that's a big step, but only half way. the media went wild. you have to shame those kind of media for such shamefull behavior.

so ceasing to tell irish jokes is hardly much of a achievement.