I need a word or term: spoken song?

Subject: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 03:28 PM

I need a word or term to fit the following definition: a type of musical performance in which words that have a regular verse pattern and rhyme scheme are spoken or recited (not sung) in sync with musical accompaniment.

I'm afraid calling it a "song" would be misleading, because "song" implies singing.

Calling it a poem or recitation would not be specific enough, because poems and recitations don't normally have musical accompaniment.

Calling it a "spoken song" is descriptive enough, I suppose, but I wonder if there is already another term in use that I should use instead. I don't want to reinvent the wheel.

The most famous example that comes to mind is BIG BAD JOHN, performed by Jimmy Dean. (Lyrics are in the DT here; you can hear a performance on YouTube here.) In this performance, Dean speaks/recites the words of the verses, but he sings the phrase "Big Bad John" as part of the refrain. There are some backup singers who also sing the phrase "Big John" repeatedly.

Another example is OLD RIVERS, performed by Walter Brennan with the Johnny Mann Singers (and later, by the Light Crust Doughboys), on YouTube here. Brennan speaks/recites throughout, but there are some backup singers that sing on the chorus.

I don't want to give the impression that this technique is used only in "country" songs—I'm sure that's far from the truth—but no other good examples come to mind right now.

The reason I ask is: I have been engaged in a project of transcribing the songs of Sophie Tucker. She used this technique a lot, especially in her old age. Her last performance was on the Ed Sullivan Show in 1965; she died the following year at age 80. She was a vaudeville/cabaret singer, specializing in blues and novelty songs, some of them quite risqué for the time.

Anyway, as I document these "songs," I want to label each one with a term that will be readily understood, and not have to define the term each time I use it.

I think I may have once heard a German word: Songsprache? Sangsprache? Liedsprache? Spielsprache?

If you don't know the answer, but want to contribute to this thread anyway, I think it would be fun to compile a list of as many "songs" as we can think of that fit the definition.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 03:38 PM

Obviously "rapping" doesn't work.

A "recitative" is defined as "a style of vocal music intermediate between speaking and singing."

That would seem to fit "Big Bad John" as well as "Old Rivers," though they're closer to the "speaking" end of the spectrum than most recitatives I'm familiar with.

There may be no *single word* in English that perfectly describes such performances.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 03:50 PM

Isn't that the way Homer recited the Iliad? Spoken iambic pentameter, with musical accompaniment on a lyre or something, wasn't it?

I think of it as the normal way to recite lyric poetry, though we don't do anything normally any more. Even the term "lyric poetry" has picked up a range of new meanings.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 03:52 PM

Someone somewhere used the term "sound poem". Might have been somebody on Mudcat. I have an idea who did it, but I'm not positive.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:30 PM

I have heard it described as "cantillation", though obviously it's less organized than the Jewish version.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:35 PM

Was singspiel the word you were looking for? I'm not sure if it's right for what you want.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:37 PM

Yes, I remember seeing the term "sound poem" here at Mudcat, and I was never clear on the definition, but it didn't seem like the kind of thing I was interested in, so I didn't ask.

Here's the Wikipedia article on sound poetry.

It sounds like a type of poem where the sound is more important than the meaning, and the words might even be nonsense, or they might not even be real words.

It lists several poets who wrote sound poems. The only ones I recognize are William S. Burroughs, Allen Ginsberg, and Edith Sitwell.

I don't think it fits the concept I'm looking for.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:48 PM

These were about a century ago highly popular and very common as 'Musical Monologues'. Bransby Williams was the main artiste and there was a whole series of sheet music produced. I used to have a collection of them. I expect if you Googled Bransby Williams you would get a list of about a 100 of them, some well-known even today.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 05:23 PM

It's called SPOKEN WORD in the business...Google my name and check out The Ghost of Elvis & The Soul Eater, available worldwide in most digital stores...BR

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 05:30 PM

There are the operatic terms sprechgesang and sprechstimme.

Definitions from Opera terminology:

"Sprechgesang and Sprechstimme (German for spoken-song and spoken-voice) are musical terms used to refer to an expressionist vocal technique between singing and speaking. Though sometimes used interchangeably, sprechgesang is a term directly related to the operatic recitative manner of singing (in which pitches are sung, but the articulation is rapid and loose like speech), whereas sprechstimme is closer to speech itself (because it does not emphasise any particular pitches)."

Mick

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 07:08 PM

Bob Ryszkiewicz: I listened to your recordings of THE GHOST OF ELVIS and THE SOUL EATER—they are both available on Spotify—and they definitely fit the genre I am trying to define. However, I think "spoken word" is too broad a category. The Grammy Awards has a category called "Best Spoken Word Album" which includes "poetry, audio books and story telling" according to the current definition. Some recent winners are:

2011: "If You Ask Me (And of Course You Won't)" by Betty White

2010: "The Daily Show with Jon Stewart Presents Earth (the audiobook)" by John Stewart

2009: "Always Looking Up" by Michael J. Fox

If I'm not mistaken, those are all audiobooks.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 07:48 PM

A good example, I think: Rex harrison in "My Fair Lady"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=EAYUuspQ6BY

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 07:49 PM

Hi Jim: Thanks for listening. i think if you keep going with the research your music define itself, so to speak.

Using meta search engines like Yippy, and entering the terms of your work, will give you an idea of the most accepted descriptions. Yippy is a great categorizer.

But I feel you should be safe with Spoken Word. And remember, you can also use tags to guide people to what you are doing, e.g. word, spoken, country, songssprache, recited, musical, accompaniment, vaudeville, cabaret,...Anybody using the tags for searches should find you...

Good Luck...bob

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,Bob Rszkiewicz
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 07:57 PM

Now I get it. SOLILOQUY...Thanks Tatie...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soliloquy

Phew, that was easy, let's do it again sometime...LOL

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 08:14 PM

Or maybe monologue...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monologue

from My Fair Lady...Wikipedia... The story concerns Eliza Doolittle, a Cockney flower girl who takes speech lessons from professor Henry Higgins, a phoneticist, so that she may pass as a well-born lady.

So somewhere in the nether world between spoken word, musical theatre, soliloquies, monologues...lies the answer...I think...LOL:0)

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 08:56 PM

"Narrative Talk-Singing" from "Sophie Tucker"...Wikipedia...Lots of research to be done on Sophie Tucker...

Another descriptive might go like, "in the Sophie Tucker style", etc.

It seems that the technique in it's many varieties, from Burlesque, all the way up to today's Rap, has had names peculiar to the time & genre of the song...(Remember the "talking Blues style?")

You have lots of help from the search engines, not much point in re-inventing the wheel...

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,Banjo Tom
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 09:10 PM

Wow, great replies. I would go with descriptive language, and not get hung up on a single term. Describe it, don't box it.

Best ~ Tom Hanway

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 09:24 PM

Hundreds of examples from classical opera...

recitative (rĕs'ĭtətēv`),

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,Banjo Tom
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 09:25 PM

Well, just on the surface of it, without getting into all the apt terms, some with cultural references and connotations, I think "spoken song" is pretty good and generic enough to describe what you're asking about, amn't I inchoate? But it works for me, and I love the older and newer cultural references, which also work. Terms, taken too seriously, can lead to narrower ideas about that which you are trying to include. The historicity or terms for this (such things)is another huge topic. Great question! Spoken song, oh yea, I know what that is, sort of!

Best ~ Tom

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 09:39 PM

Steve Gardham: I was not aware of Bransby Williams. Thanks for bringing him to my attention. The "Make Em Laugh" website has the text of about 30 of his monologues, as well as some biographical information.

YouTube has two recordings of Bransby Williams performing DEVIL MAY CARE; this one (Columbia 2560) has musical accompaniment and this one does not.

I listened to several other recordings by him, and none of them had musical accompaniment.

Your suggestion reminded me of another performer famous for this genre: Stanley Holloway. All of these recordings by him are available on Spotify. I listened to each one of them enough to make sure it was in the correct style.

'Alt! Who Goes Theer?
Albert and His Savings
Albert and the 'Eadsman
Albert Comes Back
Albert Evacuated
Brahn Boots
Careless Talk
Gunner Joe
Many Happy Returns
Marksman Sam
My Missus
Old Sam's Christmas Pudding
Old Sam's Party
One Each Apiece All Round
Recumbent Posture
Sam Drummed Out
Sam Small at Westminster
Some Goes to It
The Food Demonstration
The Jubilee Sov'rin
The Lion and Albert
Thre Ha'pence a Foot
Upp'ards

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 10:51 PM

While it may seem a little less than erudite, a term used quite commonly on record jackets and in books within the appropriate genre is just "talkin' blues." (talkin' as an adjective, not a verb)

Of course for anything other than the blues one would likely want to seem a little more "literate" (???), but I can't think of anything more descriptive that I've heard used very often.

In sheet music, the notation is usually just "[Spoken]" which seems more an instruction than a description.

John

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 01:20 AM

Does the term cante fable quite fit here? Not quite sure.

~M~

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: eftifino
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 01:40 AM

One from the '70s is "Convoy' by C W McCall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnJEeHND_lQ

My Dad, Noel Purcell, recorded 2 on Glenside in Dublin in the '50s, but called them recitations, even though both had piano accompaniment.
they were:
'The Man Me Mother Married" and 'Pretty Polly'.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: FrederickDenny
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 02:10 AM

Monologue is the term mostly used to describe the spoken songs. I remember Gracie Field's record of 'We've got to keep up with the Joness' It starts with speech then the chorus is sung.

I also remember the 'Talking Union Blues' recording.

Many of these things are performed by speech or singing in order to give something 'good' to them. Also some are spoken when the voice will not sing good enough. I used to perform 'Brahn Boots' as a monologue but my accompaniest suggested singing the last three words. It was a good suggestion.

Frederick

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 05:18 AM

The Musical Monologue is definitely one variety of spoken word with music accompanying it. It is a genre which already has its label to identify the style of performance. Some of them might be described as a "spoken" song, but my recollection is that the musical accompaniment is more to give emphasis to particular parts of the narrative than what we would expect in a song. The question is whether the Big Bad John sort of song fits into the Musical Monologue?

Your original post is looking for a term to describe or label what you are working with. Perhaps you could use multiple descriptions (musical monologue/spoken word/spoken song/etc.)in the way a web page uses tags which a search engine uses to "find" a page.

Another Country Music spoken song is Convoy by CW McCall. The style does seem to be used more in Country music compared with other "pop" music.

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Marje
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 05:26 AM

Some of the suggestsions above seem to fit; others don't really hit the spot.
It's not just "Spoken word" because everything we say is spoken word, and doesn't imply musical accompaniment.
It's not monologue, because that (e.g. Stanley Holloway) is usually just a metric poem, and doesn't necessarily have any music going on either.
It's not just soliloquy, for the same reason.
It's not recitative, as this is sung rather than spoken.

It looks as if the term used depends on the musical genre. Talking blues, Sprechgesang, and what's the Welsh one they do with a harp? I don't know of a term to cover what Jim is asking about, etc, or one that encompasses the whole lot. But it's early days yet, perhaps someone will come up with one....

Marje

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Bert
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 05:52 AM

Spong.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 06:26 AM

Rap music is a form of what Jim Dixon described in his OP.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Tootler
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 06:40 AM

Spoken song seems to be a pretty good description.

To me, Rap and Talking Blues both imply a particular style of delivery.

"Monster Mash" was another example: The verses were spoken, the first line of the chorus was semi sung (if there is such a thing) and the rest of the chorus was spoken. The chorus had a sung vocal backing. (iirc)

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: OldPossum
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 07:44 AM

Here is another vote for cante fable. One example is The Darling Baby, recorded by The Boys of the Lough on their third LP.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 08:01 AM

I'm doing a lot of these now.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,Henry Piper
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 11:52 AM

I cant help thinking that the O.P is making heavy weather of this. If its that difficult to define why not simply describe it as what it is , a song thats being spoken rather than being sung ie a " spoken song" Simples !!

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Marje
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 01:03 PM

As I understand it, the OP has to refer to this type of singing numerous times in his project, and wants to avoid repeated descriptions. He simply wants to know if there is already an accepted term that would be clearly understood, to save him having to invent a new one or describe it every time.

It's beginning to look, though, as if there isn't one ....

Marje

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 03:38 PM

If none of the suggested terms are useful to the OP then the 2 examples quoted will have sheet music somewhere and it is quite likely there is a description of the type on the sheet music. Another from the same era perhaps. Wink Martindale's 'Deck of Cards' based on a very old broadsheet piece.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 04:42 PM

GUEST,Tony, above, put his finger on something that can root the "spoken song" in a historical style of delivery.

It is generally believed that works such as Homer's Iliad and Odyssey were spoken—chanted to the occasional strumming or plucking of a lyre. This is also one of the major theories about the delivery of songs and stories by scops, skalds, and bards early on.

CLICKY.

I started at the U. of Washington as an English major, and my very first class was on Early English Literature. Sometime during the first week of the class, the professor, a little bird-like woman with a big speaking voice, treated us to the first several lines of Beowulf, said to be the first known work of English Literature. She recited them first in Olde English (which sounded very Scandinavian), then in modern English.

Most impressive!

Recently, I was given a DVD of Benjamin Bagby, recreating the style of delivery of the early skalds, complete with a replica of an Anglo-Saxon lyre-harp (found when excavating the buried wreck of a Viking long ship).

Here is Bagby doing an excerpt from Beowulf:    CLICKY. The battle between the warrior Beowulf and the monster, Grendel.

In his later years, Richard Dyer-Bennet undertook to record the entire Iliad and Odyssey. Here he is, talking about the project and giving demonstrations, reciting with the harp:   CLICKY. It runs about a quarter of an hour.

This is a style of delivery that's nearly 3,000 years old, and more than likely, much older than that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 06:37 PM

When I saw ther first post, the song that came to mind for me was "MacArthur Park." I went to Spotify to see if "Park" fit this genre, and found that it really doesn't. I think "MacArthur Park" is better defined as "a song recorded by a person who can't sing."

Whether we come up with a proper term for "spoken song" or not, this thread is an interesting study of songs of this genre.

When I hear these "spoken songs," I can often hear the sung version song in my head, even though the performer is speaking. I can't imagine Walter Brennan actually singing, but I can tell in my mind how the song would sound if somebody did sing it.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 06:55 PM

Great videos, Don! Especially the Beowulf. I have to get a lyre. Poets are always asking me to play while they recite. Unfortunately, the guitar isn't really suited to that; it's too refined, and it wants to be sung with. But that lyre is perfect. Homer and his gang really knew what they were doing. I'd like to try that.

From Wikipedia: For the ancient Greeks, lyric poetry had a precise technical meaning: verse that was accompanied by a lyre or other stringed instrument (e.g. the barbitos). The lyric poet was distinguished from the writer of plays (although Athenian drama included choral odes, in lyric form), the writer of trochaic and iambic verses (which were recited), the writer of elegies (accompanied by the flute, rather than the lyre) and the writer of epic.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 07:24 PM

Check this out, Don: The Iliad read in the original

No lyre; but after watching the Beowulf video it's easy to see how a lyre is just what this recitation needs to make it complete.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 08:02 PM

I was going to put on a couple of links to web pages and YouTube videos about the Anglo-Saxon lyre, because the last time I looked specifically for it, there was quite a lot of information available, including how to build your own (complete with diagrams), and various techniques for playing them--amazing how much music you can get out of such a limited instrument!

But there are WADS more stuff now! Just Google "anglo-saxon lyre" and go mad!!

Great stuff!! I want one!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Mysha
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 05:13 PM

Hi,

Well, some of the examples seem to be delivered parlando. Maybe using that as a search term might get you closer to le mot juste.

Bye,
                                                                  Mysha

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: zozimus
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 05:48 PM

I've just been re-reading Hugh Shields book on "Narrative Singing in Ireland" and the word you might be looking for is a Lay, not to be confused with Bob Dylan's "Lay Ladie, Lay"

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: maeve
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 06:26 PM

MtheGM mentioned "cante fable", a term often used by Gordon Bok to describe several of his compositions. Seems to me Gordon has also used the term "spoken ballad".

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 06:28 PM

Don: I agree. Must have a lyre. And some of the pages Google turned up show how to build one. But I've made a pledge not to buy or build any new instruments until I get rid of at least 6 guitars.

So I'm thinking about how I could convert one of the extra guitars for use as a lyre. After all, most Anglo-Saxon lyres have six strings. I figure I can just install 2 sets of nylon treble strings, arranged G G B B E E, and then tune them to G A B C D E, or one of the other lyre tunings.

It might be necessary to increase the spacing between the strings. One of my extra guitars has a floating bridge and tailpiece. I could make a new, wider bridge and tailpiece for that one. The strings don't need to stay over the neck since a lyre normally doesn't even have a neck.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 07:50 PM

Hello, Jim. To get back to the original question, I have one suggestion. I've heard Johnny Cash's delivery referred to as 'talk-sing.'

The term's not very elegant, but it does the job.

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 04:43 PM

I recall hearing that the ballad Chevy Chase was traditionally recited while the tune of that name was played as a musical accompaniment. Dunno whether that's accurate, but it would be consistent with some of the observations in this thread.

One difference from the Beowulf and Odyssey videos would be that the instrument plays a continuous tune rather than occasional notes or chords.

Marje asked >what's the Welsh one they do with a harp?<
This seems relevant.

Richard

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: Marje
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:26 AM

Thanks - Penillion, that's the word I was thinking of (or failing to think of). Again, it's a very specific instance and can't usefully be applied to other types of .... err ... the thing we're discussing.

Marje

Subject: RE: I need a word or term: spoken song?
From: GUEST,guestibus
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:39 AM

Talking song