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BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois

Songwronger 11 Dec 12 - 07:10 PM
Rapparee 11 Dec 12 - 07:19 PM
olddude 11 Dec 12 - 10:18 PM
olddude 11 Dec 12 - 10:19 PM
olddude 11 Dec 12 - 10:24 PM
Rapparee 11 Dec 12 - 10:30 PM
Songwronger 11 Dec 12 - 10:38 PM
olddude 11 Dec 12 - 10:44 PM
olddude 11 Dec 12 - 10:46 PM
Rapparee 11 Dec 12 - 10:50 PM
Rapparee 11 Dec 12 - 10:53 PM
olddude 11 Dec 12 - 10:58 PM
olddude 11 Dec 12 - 11:02 PM
Rapparee 11 Dec 12 - 11:23 PM
Midchuck 12 Dec 12 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 12 Dec 12 - 09:30 AM
Stu 12 Dec 12 - 09:53 AM
Rapparee 12 Dec 12 - 09:55 AM
Pete Jennings 12 Dec 12 - 10:03 AM
GUEST 12 Dec 12 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,Stim 12 Dec 12 - 11:01 AM
kendall 12 Dec 12 - 02:50 PM
olddude 12 Dec 12 - 03:10 PM
Rapparee 12 Dec 12 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,999 12 Dec 12 - 06:39 PM
EBarnacle 12 Dec 12 - 10:34 PM
Rapparee 12 Dec 12 - 10:53 PM
EBarnacle 13 Dec 12 - 01:33 AM
kendall 13 Dec 12 - 08:53 AM
Rapparee 13 Dec 12 - 10:08 AM
pdq 13 Dec 12 - 10:56 AM
kendall 13 Dec 12 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 13 Dec 12 - 02:58 PM
Rapparee 13 Dec 12 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 13 Dec 12 - 07:43 PM
GUEST,999 14 Dec 12 - 08:32 AM
Rapparee 14 Dec 12 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,999 14 Dec 12 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,CS 14 Dec 12 - 12:38 PM
pdq 14 Dec 12 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 14 Dec 12 - 01:15 PM
saulgoldie 14 Dec 12 - 01:21 PM
olddude 14 Dec 12 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,CS 14 Dec 12 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,CS 14 Dec 12 - 02:05 PM
Rapparee 14 Dec 12 - 02:42 PM
Jack Campin 14 Dec 12 - 03:06 PM
gnu 14 Dec 12 - 03:24 PM

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Subject: BS: Court rules guns legal in Illinois
From: Songwronger
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 07:10 PM

SPRINGFIELD - In a huge win for gun-rights groups, a divided federal appeals court in Chicago Tuesday tossed the state's ban on carrying concealed weapons and gave Illinois' Legislature 180 days to craft a law legalizing concealed carry.

"The debate is over. We won. And there will be a statewide carry law in 2013," said Todd Vandermyde, a lobbyist for the National Rifle Association.

In a split opinion (see below), the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals reversed a lower court ruling in two cases downstate that upheld the state's longstanding prohibition against carrying concealed weapons.

Illinois is the only state with an outright prohibition on concealed carry.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/politics/2012/12/big_win_for_gun-rights_groups_federal_appeals_court_tosses_state_ban_on_carrying_conc

The old Daley/Mafia machine must be livid over this. Their serfs will soon be able to defend themselves against criminals, thugs, cops and so on. Obama and Rahm Emmanuel too. Those carrion birds settled on Chicago as the nest of their evil, and now...well, their serfs will soon be able to defend themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules guns legal in Illinois
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 07:19 PM

Oh, stop being silly.

1. Guns have always been legal in Illinois. You have needed a Firearm Owners Identification Card (FOID), but gun ownership has always been legal. This has been in place for about forty years now.

2. Carrying concealed weapons has been illegal. That's what the case was about.

3. The Seventh Circuit ruled 2-1, with Proser writing the opinion for the Court. Seventh Circuit is not often overruled by the Supremes.

4. Concealed carry was illegal primarily because Chicago didn't want it.

5. Illinois law on the subject was going down anyway, if for no other reason than the "full faith and credence" clause of the Constitution -- the same reason the gay marriage bans will be going down.

6. Illinois has 180 days to craft a new law.

And if you think I don't know what I'm talking about -- I lived and owned guns in Illinois for the first quarter-century of my life, and my brother (retired from the State Police) still lives there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: olddude
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 10:18 PM

Wisconsin also does not allow concealed carry so it is not just Illinois. There is currently no CCL in that state. However, I know they were trying to work on changing that. You can own handguns but not conceal carry them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: olddude
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 10:19 PM

And Rap, Illinois never needed a concealed carry law, there is no crime in Chicago against honest people .. never has been never will be so no need for any changes


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: olddude
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 10:24 PM

The pen maybe mightier than the sword, but in a gunfight, ya can have the pen, I want Sam Colt


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 10:30 PM

olddude, Wisconsin law changed at least a year ago. 49 out of 50 states permit concealed carry, Illinois being (until now) the only holdout. By the way, you can take and pass classes for a concealed carry permit for Utah in Illinois.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Songwronger
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 10:38 PM

Concealed carry means that the bad guys will cut back on their criminal activity, and cops will have to think twice before yanking people out of cars. Love it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: olddude
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 10:44 PM

Didn't know that Rap. I knew a few years ago Wisconsin had none. I am glad to see they do now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: olddude
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 10:46 PM

I hope Illinois takes some good measures before issuing them. Just make sure the training is required and the right background checks done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 10:50 PM

Songwronger, I have to ask: have you ever been shot at by someone who had the intent of killing you dead? Do you seriously believe that the first time, and perhaps the only time, in your life you experience a deadly weapon pointed at you in earnest you can and will respond promptly and correctly? And may I most sincerely suggest that you read Dave Grossman and Loren W. Christensen's book On Combat: The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict in War and Peace (Warrior Science Publications, 2008) before you respond?


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 10:53 PM

Oh, yes -- it's on the Required Reading lists at West Point, the Air Force Academy, Sandhurst, Saint Cyr, the FBI, the Secret Service, the Command and General Staff School, the Marine Corps, and many other agencies around the world.

The companion book is called On Killing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: olddude
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 10:58 PM

As skilled and trained as you and I are Rap, and as much as we carry weapons, carrying a pocket watch or a guitar is still a hell of a lot more fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: olddude
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 11:02 PM

required reading for CIA also Rap


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 11:23 PM

I don't pack a gun. I don't need to, so why bother with it? I could, legally, do so. But when you pick up a deadly weapon -- a gun, knife, brass knuckles, garrote, bow, sword, or your own trained hands -- you also pick up a heavy, heavy responsibility.

Don't be misled by Hollywood and television. Self-defense or societal defense is, or should be, a weight too heavy for most to carry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 08:58 AM

Self-defense or societal defense is, or should be, a weight too heavy for most to carry.

You're right. But having pointed that out, you've assumed an obligation to provide a better alternative.

Rely on the police? The police very seldom PREVENT violent crimes. They can't. They'd have to be everywhere at once. They arrive at the scene afterwards, and possibly arrest the perpetrator (if he's white, or shoot him while he's "resisting arrest" if he's black). but the victim is just as dead or crippled as if the perp had gotten away clean. Or if the victim was lucky and wasn't harmed, but just had his money taken, the money goes into the police evidence locker for a few years, and eventually, when the victim has given up on getting it back and forgotten about it, gets spent on doughnuts.

Rely on the court system? Too often, the perp is out in a few months or years and does it again. And while he's in, he's training youthful offenders, many of whom who got put in for nonviolent crimes, in how to be a real pro.

A person shouldn't carry unless he/she has good anger management and has formal training in the use of the firearm and in the legal aspects of use of deadly force in self-defense. An absolute prohibition of concealed carry results in ONLY people who DON'T have those prohibitions going armed (except for the police, who are somewhere else, giving out speeding tickets).

Forgive my cynicism. But I get sooooo sick of liberals picking on conservatives for oversimplifying the issue, while the liberals are oversimplifying it just as badly. No worse, granted. But just as badly.

P.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 09:30 AM

Thank God I don't live in Illinois.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 09:53 AM

"required reading for CIA also Rap"

Hardly a glowing endorsement is it?

When we were in North Carolina and Virginia a few weeks back the museums we visited (to examine the palaeontology collections) all had signs on the doors saying "weapons not allowed" and a picture of a pistol. Do the gunslingers hand their weapons in at reception for safekeeping or do they simply go home? Perhaps they just lie about whether they've got a gun or not.

Oddly enough, this trip to,the states was the first one we've been on when we felt slightly intimidated; we knew some of the locals might be gunmen or women and this was a bit unnerving, as you felt you couldn't speak you mind totally with some people who might take offence, and pop a cap in yo ass.

Mind you, I'm sure they've all had anger management training, been screened for defective genes and behavioural abnormalities and tutored in when and how to use their weapon, so I'm sure it was all an illusion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 09:55 AM

I left, didn't I? My brother is expecting his pension to be paid in IOU's almost any day now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 10:03 AM

Left?


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 10:37 AM

I pack when I feel the need to otherwise it is a pocket watch


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 11:01 AM

Sugarfoot Jack-The sign you saw was a response to a situation a few years ago where a number of gun rights advocates began carrying their weapons to restaurants and such places to "educate" the public on their right to carry arms under Virginia Law. Here's an article: Gun Toting in Virginia

It was determined that the owners and operators of any establishment had the right to prohibit this sort of thing, so, as a response, a number of places posted signs, which are still up, though, since the Virginia Tech shootings, no one has really been making a show of their gun rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 02:50 PM

Midchuck, I am a Liberal and I believe that I have a god given right to protect myself. Furthermore, the police have no obligation to protect me.
As the saying goes, I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: olddude
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 03:10 PM

Guest was me sorry. I will never go to a shopping mall without carrying. Now it is a crazy in Oregon that went on a shooting spree
will it ever end


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 03:29 PM

Not until we change our society. Hollywood, television, and video games all have a share of the blame. Now we are producing a generation brought up on the video games, a generation reaching the age where they are more likely to start shooting up a mall, a church, et cetera.

The roots of the problem are deep and the solution is not simple. Gun bans alone are not the answer.

As Cassius says, "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings." We will continue to be underlings until we take it upon ourselves to bring about the deep and complex solutions needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 06:39 PM

"Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois"

Wouldn't have been a problem if people'd concealed 'em better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 10:34 PM

There is an interesting article in the December, 2012 Atlantic. It is available on their website. "The case for more guns" by Jeffrey Goldberg.

While I do not carry firearms, I carry a very effective and heavy cane as well a Schrade "Bearpaw." Ya cain't accidently pull uh trigguh in yuh ain't got a fiahahm and the items I carry are sufficient for close threats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 10:53 PM

A knife.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 01:33 AM

Gerbers are good but I've been carrying Schrade for nearly 40 years. I take the tip off and grind it into a cliptip tanto blade. Good for opening bottles, cans and doing ropework. Plus, since there is no spring, it's legal to carry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 08:53 AM

Only a fool brings a knife to a gun fight.

Raparee is right. it is not the guns, it is the mind set. Every man in Switzerland has a gun, yet their murder rate hardly shows up in the stats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 10:08 AM

Kendall, you know damned good and well that the best weapon in any fight is the one you have. If you have a machine gun (illegal in the US without special license, except for Kendall) and all I have is a marlinspike I'll use that. But you'd best have filed the sights down on the machine gun and oiled it up really well so it won't hurt as much when I shove it up your nether regions.

But the best thing to do is to avoid a fight of any sort entirely. If everyone did that the world would be a much nicer place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: pdq
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 10:56 AM

"... December, 2012 Atlantic. It is available on their website. "The case for more guns" by Jeffrey Goldberg."

This article claims that 108, 000 people last year "had used a gun in their defense".

Most studies put that number over 2 million.

The article is probaby better than the usual anti-gun rants, but on this point, the article uses an a studt with serious built-in sampling prejudice errors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 01:04 PM

If you find yourself in a fair fight, you fucked up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 02:58 PM

What they really gotta do...and soon...is make concealed intelligence a felony.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 03:05 PM

Chonga's right about something for once.

Kendall -- what's a "fair fight?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 07:43 PM

A fair fight is one in which both sides are armed basically the same, seem pretty much evenly matched, and neither one is hidin' a monkey wrench up their sleeve, just speakin' metaphorically, you understand...

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:32 AM

A fair fight is one I walk away from and my attacker doesn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 09:28 AM

That's the way I've always figured it, 9.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 09:39 AM

I figured you would, Rap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 12:38 PM

Curious to know how often the gun owners here have, when carrying, successfully used their weapon to prevent an attack by an unexpected assailant - either directed at them personally or at another party? We don't have much in the way of guns in the UK, and I'm glad of it. Though not in any way opposed to the pragmatics of hunting for food as opposed to sport.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: pdq
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 12:50 PM

"...successfully used their weapon to prevent an attack by an unexpected assailant..."

Do you really believe that a violent attack from anyone is truly expected?

If I knew I was going to be assaulted at a certain place and time, I would be somewhere else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 01:15 PM

Crazy Americans and guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: saulgoldie
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 01:21 PM

It's a good thing people may now "pack" in Illinois. If the kids here had been packing, perhaps this would not have happened??

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/14/15907407-26-dead-after-lone-gunman-assaults-connecticut-elementary-school-official-sa

Incidentally, a university in Colorado (was it the University of Colorado? I forget) set up a special dorm for anyone who wanted to carry a gun. No one signed up to live there. And the beat goes on, and on...

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: olddude
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 01:36 PM

several times for me, and I never had to use it. but was prepared to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:02 PM

Thanks Olddude, would you care to share the specifics in a story or three? I think it would be valuable testimony.

The reason I ask is that I'd genuinely like to gain better understanding the 'other side' of the argument, so to speak. Essentially, I'm a pacifist and as such very much anti-gun, but I would appreciate being shown how carrying guns can genuinely work in promoting people safety and arguably peace. I hope that makes sense?


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:05 PM

Hmm, maybe that'd be better suited to a separate thread, rather than piggybacking on this one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:42 PM

Guest CS, anyone who truly understands the responsibilities of carrying a weapon and using deadly force is a pacifist. Believe me. I've been there. The cop or soldier or person who frightens me is the one who says, "If I'd been there with my gun this wouldn't have happened" or "Just bring 'em on!" These are the people who are are the "if-then" sort. They are thinking "If this happens then I'll do that." They do not accept the fact the it COULD happen and do not think "when-then" -- WHEN (I am shot at, I am attacked with a knife, etc.) THEN (I will respond with my weapon, I will take cover, I will do this other thing). I hope you can understand the difference in the mindsets here, because it's the difference between those who take responsibility and plan for the God Awful (and rejoice when it doesn't happen) and those who act spontaneously and get themselves and others hurt or killed in the process.

No one WANTS the worse, but to plan for it isn't wrong. To assume that you'll act correctly if it happens is wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 03:06 PM

Every man in Switzerland has a gun, yet their murder rate hardly shows up in the stats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Their gun homicide rate is 20 times as high as the UK and their gun suicide rate is 35 times as high, the second highest in the world after the US.

How difficult is it to make an elementary fact check before blabbering out redneck urban legends?


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Subject: RE: BS: Court rules concealed guns legal in Illinois
From: gnu
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 03:24 PM

"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you fucked up."

Heheheheee!


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