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BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK

Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Dec 12 - 05:19 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Dec 12 - 07:22 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Dec 12 - 07:34 AM
Rob Naylor 13 Dec 12 - 08:39 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Dec 12 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,CS 13 Dec 12 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Teribus 13 Dec 12 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,TIA 13 Dec 12 - 09:50 AM
Stu 13 Dec 12 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 13 Dec 12 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,CS 13 Dec 12 - 11:04 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Dec 12 - 11:28 AM
Greg F. 13 Dec 12 - 11:37 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Dec 12 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 13 Dec 12 - 11:47 AM
Rob Naylor 13 Dec 12 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,TIA 13 Dec 12 - 12:16 PM
GUEST 13 Dec 12 - 12:37 PM
Ringer 13 Dec 12 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 13 Dec 12 - 01:21 PM
theleveller 13 Dec 12 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,999 13 Dec 12 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Psychomorris 13 Dec 12 - 03:08 PM
michaelr 13 Dec 12 - 03:35 PM
gnu 13 Dec 12 - 03:46 PM
Greg F. 13 Dec 12 - 04:32 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Dec 12 - 05:19 PM
Greg F. 13 Dec 12 - 06:06 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Dec 12 - 07:22 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Dec 12 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 13 Dec 12 - 08:41 PM
gnu 13 Dec 12 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 13 Dec 12 - 10:30 PM
GUEST,999 13 Dec 12 - 11:16 PM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 13 Dec 12 - 11:18 PM
theleveller 14 Dec 12 - 03:20 AM
Ringer 14 Dec 12 - 04:27 AM
Stu 14 Dec 12 - 07:10 AM
GUEST,TIA 14 Dec 12 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,999 14 Dec 12 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 14 Dec 12 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,John from Kemsing 14 Dec 12 - 12:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Dec 12 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,Stim 14 Dec 12 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 14 Dec 12 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,Stim 15 Dec 12 - 12:08 AM
GUEST,CS 15 Dec 12 - 05:15 AM
GUEST,Big Al whittle 15 Dec 12 - 06:21 AM
Rob Naylor 16 Dec 12 - 04:04 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 16 Dec 12 - 09:40 AM
Rob Naylor 16 Dec 12 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 16 Dec 12 - 11:06 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Dec 12 - 01:54 PM
Greg F. 16 Dec 12 - 03:59 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Dec 12 - 05:12 PM
gnu 16 Dec 12 - 05:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Dec 12 - 03:16 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 17 Dec 12 - 04:16 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 17 Dec 12 - 06:01 AM
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Subject: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 05:19 AM

I have no words...too gutted!

>>>"The government has given the go-ahead for a firm to resume the controversial technique known as fracking to exploit gas in Lancashire.

Conditions have been imposed to minimise the risk of seismic a
ctivity.

Fracking involves creating little explosions underground, then injecting water and chemicals to release gas trapped in cavities in shale rocks.

The firm, Cuadrilla, was stopped from fracking after two small earthquakes.

In the US, exploitation of shale gas boom has sent energy prices tumbling, and the Prime Minister has expressed hopes that the UK can enjoy a similar boom.

But government advisers warn today that shale gas may be unlikely to bring down energy prices much in Britain.

In fact, the Committee on Climate Change warns that relying heavily on gas for future electricity supplies would leave households vulnerable to higher bills in the long run as the price of gas on the international market is volatile.

The UK won't benefit from substantially lower prices unless the rest of Europe decides to back shale gas too, as Europe has a gas grid that allows gas to be traded to the highest bidder.

The CCC has examined the potential impact on bills of different energy systems and predicts that subsidies to renewables and nuclear would put about £100 on household bills by 2020, but that by 2050 a gas-based electricity system might cost people as much as £600 extra.
Infographic

Today's fracking decision has created political excitement as the Prime Minister the Chancellor and some business leaders have spoken enthusiastically about shale gas.

Environmentalists are more cautious following incidents in the US in which fracking has been associated with pollution of water through the chemicals involved in the process, as well as leakage of methane - a powerful greenhouse gas as well as a local air pollutant.

They say fracking will generate much more opposition in the UK than it has in the US as it involves turning green fields into industrial sites.

They also worry that an abundance of domestic gas will tempt politicians to abandon targets for cutting greenhouse gases, which are rising inexorably globally to the alarm of scientists.

A poll suggested that people would prefer to have wind turbines on the horizon than gas rigs.

Steve Radley, Director of Policy at EEF, the manufacturers' organisation, said the UK should do whatever possible to keep energy costs down: "This is a major threat that needs to be addressed now as we cannot continue to load industry with costs which are in excess of our competitors.," he said.

Caroline Flint MP, Labour's Shadow Energy Secretary, said: "Labour has always said that fracking should only go ahead if it is shown to be safe and environmentally sound. If the Government believes that this is the case then we will look carefully at their proposals.

"But the idea that this form of gas extraction can have the same impact here in the UK as it has had on gas prices in the United States is considered wishful thinking by most experts."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20707574


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 07:22 AM

On for 7 days, the BBC programme from this morning. There's a lot of very interesting information on here from both sides of the argument. Vanessa Vine is at 19.36 in and continues through a few calls and she's wonderful! I'm at 28.36 and again at 34.25, but I lost the plot I'm afraid, because I'm so deeply upset at what they're doing here, so I found myself trying to talk through my tears. I'm just Beyond Belief at the way some people refuse to see the Whole Picture and refuse to live their lives for the Next Seven Generations and Way Beyond.

I feel desperately sad today...and even more Desperately Angry!

Today, is a Black Day for my Country....and for Mother Earth too, for with every country that joins up to the Fracking Insanity, the damage to her gets ever bigger and goes ever deeper.....

Feck my Species and I apologise to all the Innocent Species that we will, more than likely, take down with us one day in the not too distant future....

Nicky Campbell's BBC Radio 5 show


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 07:34 AM

Press Release from BIFF

The BIFF Facebook page....(Britain and Ireland Frack Free)


And the list Vanessa speaks of, above:

List of the Harmed


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 08:39 AM

Hmm, there are 2 sides to every story:

There were indeed 2 small earthquakes attributed to the initial fracking. They were of the same order of magnitude (1.4 and 2.3) as most of the dozens of small seismic events that occur naturally in England every year. The report into the investigation stated:

''This combination of geological factors was rare and would be unlikely to occur together again at future well sites.

''If these factors were to combine again in the future, local geology limits seismic events to around magnitude 3 on the Richter scale as a worst-case scenario.''

This level of activity is also typical of the many small man-made seismic events that occured due to coal-mining, when that was a major UK industry. Over many decades these caused negligible problems (not talking about subsidence events here where former mine shafts that were built over collapsed later, etc, which *were* problematic). The larger of the 2 Lancashire quakes was about 1 12 billionth the size of the Fukishima quake and caused no damage to surface structures at all.


In fact, the Committee on Climate Change warns that relying heavily on gas for future electricity supplies would leave households vulnerable to higher bills in the long run as the price of gas on the international market is volatile is something of a contradiction. Domestically produced gas would reduce reliance on volatile international markets.

The CCC has examined the potential impact on bills of different energy systems and predicts that subsidies to renewables and nuclear would put about £100 on household bills by 2020, but that by 2050 a gas-based electricity system might cost people as much as £600 extra. that's assuming no shale gas exploitation inthe UK, and I note that you're not comparing similar timescales. What would be the impact of renewables and nuclear by 2050...ie, if you're going to compare costs, it's nonsensical to use different baselines.

They say fracking will generate much more opposition in the UK than it has in the US as it involves turning green fields into nindustrial sites. It may or may not, but the opposition is likely to be of the sort of knee-jerk and non-analytical reaction experienced with such things as Brent Spar, when the amount of pollutants was vastly over-estimated by Greenpeace and the eventual land-based decommissioning championed by "environmentalists" actually ended up releasing more toxic pollutants than the original deep water sinking plan would have done. As for "turning green fields into industrial sites", the long-term visual impact is actually quite modest, once the rigs are gone. And who says the work will necessarilty be done over green fields? Emotive language.

Environmentalists are more cautious following incidents in the US in which fracking has been associated with pollution of water through the chemicals involved in the process, as well as leakage of methane - a powerful greenhouse gas as well as a local air pollutant. Yes, a valid point....we have to take care here that controls are in place and properly monitored to minimise these possibilities.

They also worry that an abundance of domestic gas will tempt politicians to abandon targets for cutting greenhouse gases, which are rising inexorably globally to the alarm of scientists.. Shale gas extraction in the US (since gas is a much smaller CO2 producer than coal or oil) has actually reduced the US's CO2 emissions below the level that (would have been) required by the Kyoto Agreement (if the US HAD signed up).

A poll suggested that people would prefer to have wind turbines on the horizon than gas rigs. What kind of poll? And were those polled aware of the difference between the initial drilling phase, where gas rigs are on site for a limited time, and the production phase, where the rigs are replaced by much less intrusive "Christmas Tree" valve arrangements for extracting and pumping the gas? Were they also made aware that the "choice" may be between a single gas rig on site for maybe 60-90 days v several dozen wind turbines in place permanently, with all the low-frequency hum effects etc that accompany them?

I work in the energy sector, yes, but my remit runs to both fossil fuels and renewables. I'm working right now on projects associated with offshore windfarms, so I have no axe to grind either way on the fossil v renewables debate, as both generate work for me.

However, what we do need, and are not getting very much of, is to be adult about these things. We can't go back to a pastoral society given the population we have to support, so our development choices need to be considered in a mature way, and with recognition that the simplistic approach advocated by many is not achievable. The problems we face in meeting energy requirements are complex. Renewables (specifically wind-based renewables) are inconsistent and unreliable,and need on-line back-up from consistent sources (at present oil, gas or coal). This on-line back-up has to be kept "warm" so is idling and wasting energy while wind turbines are working, making them less "green" than many would like to believe. The number of wind farms needed to make a significant contribution to UK energy supply is enormous. And in the last 3 years we've had 2 periods of 2 weeks, both in the dead of winter, where there was no significant wind at all and not one wind-turbine was turning, nationally, over the whole of these periods.

Let's have a mature debate, by all means...and maybe at least consider the possibility that fracking may be one of the "least bad" ways forward, rather than jumping in with knee-jerk condemnation backed up with contradictory and ill thought-through statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 08:44 AM

Speak to the people of Pennsylvannia, Rob...

Take a look at the videos of the huge fracking trucks rolling through their towns and villages 24/7, causing them terrible distress..

Tell me, though, WHAT do you intend should happen, when we've fracked our planet to pieces?

ALL most people are thinking about here is 'cheap gas' and THAT is the carrot dangled in front of them. NO thought as to US changing OUR self-indulgent, greedy ways..

You CANNOT Blast Mother Earth apart without real problems happening!

We are destroying our planet purely to feed our insatiable desire for Stuff and 24/7 party life-styles...It's INSANITY!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 08:48 AM

Ugh, the potential contamination of our underground water resources, really bothers me. Water is so essential. The Tory's want to go ahead with GM crops here in the UK too, because *sterile* seed will apparently save us all from possible future starvation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 09:05 AM

Thanks for that Rob very informative.

I have no idea why in these discussions it always gets be presented as an either/or case.

Wind Farms and wind turbines are most definitely NOT the answer, neither are wave and tidal power generation schemes. Geothermal looks attractive but expensive and very technically challenging.

The answer will be a combination of nuclear, oil, gas & coal powered generation and the renewables. We have to use the resources that WE have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 09:50 AM

Amazing day when I fully support a statement by Teribus! Well said sir. Yes, we do have to use the resources we have.
No doubt we need to transition from fossil fuels to renewables. But what energy will we use to build the new green energy infrastructure?
Yup...fossil fuels.
We need them. And we need to use them wisely.
Tight gas and oil could be our get-out-of-jail-free card to be used to get us off our global addiciton to oil...or we could just suck them into our current system, use them up, create more pollution, and put off thunderdome for a few more years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 10:19 AM

"We have to use the resources that WE have."

Except we aren't capable of using them responsibly, and in the case of hydrocarbons they are finite and will become ever more costly to extract. We're not self-sufficient in any hydrocarbons now and in truth if there was an ounce of sense in the government we would be investing in R&D for renewables for when the penny finally drops and green energy becomes a global market. However, the myopia of short-term thinking rules the roost and we blunder on enslaved to energy generation systems that are past their prime, in terms of efficiency, pollution and environmental degradation.

Wind farms are partially the answer, it's just for some reason the toffs want to destroy that particular industry. Tidal and wave power are less practical and possibly more problematic for already threatened costal ecosystems.

Oh, and there's a huge fuck-off nuclear fission reactor showering our beleaguered planet with nearly terrawatts of energy daily which could be used to heat our water, light and warm our homes and for any other number of things. So put solar panels on the roof of every building in the country, and convection heaters for our water and you're pretty much sorted . . . oh, except the hydrocarbon-sellers and their lackeys won't like that one bit will they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 10:47 AM

Lizzie....Stop talking rubbish. Fracking will effect 0.00001 percent of the Earths crust... A Tsunami/Volcanic eruption/Hurricane does far more damage. Go and study some simple physics and learn about the planet. Knee jerk rose tinted reactions don't convince anyone. And crying on the radio does even less.
(I really was trying to resist posting on here, but, your cringeworthy rant on the radio this morning was too much......BTW....I thought you had boycotted all things BBC after the Mike Harding events of a few years ago?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:04 AM

Sugarfoot Jack: "Except we aren't capable of using them responsibly, and in the case of hydrocarbons they are finite and will become ever more costly to extract. We're not self-sufficient in any hydrocarbons now and in truth if there was an ounce of sense in the government we would be investing in R&D for renewables for when the penny finally drops and green energy becomes a global market. However, the myopia of short-term thinking rules the roost and we blunder on enslaved to energy generation systems that are past their prime, in terms of efficiency, pollution and environmental degradation."


Not being well read on the matter, I'd like to understand the politics and economics behind this countries failure to pursue successful approaches in renewable energy. So far as I know, some Northern European countries have been successfully investing in and implementing positive strategies for energy usage reduction and green or renewable resources for decades now. One wonders why the UK is so attached to models for energy production and usage which - due to the finite resources they are drawn from - are inevitably and increasingly unsustainable?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:28 AM

Well,if you lot support fracking you deserve ALL that lies ahead....

Geez!

You all seem to think we have the right to take EVERYTHING from this planet regardless of the damage it does...



You were saying, Will Fly?????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:37 AM

Thou Shalt Not Question The Immutable And Omniscient Saint Liz of Blather.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:42 AM

From Ralph Jordan:".....(I really was trying to resist posting on here, but, your cringeworthy rant on the radio this morning was too much..."

I'm sure it was too much for you, Ralph, for I am a very emotional person and emotions and you do not sit well together, apart from The Emotion of Spite which flows very freely all through you.

I will never be any different, so take me as you find me. I make NO apology for my tears, nor for ANY of my emotions either.

We have become the most Arrogant, Ignorant and Selfish species on the planet.

You think this is OK.

I DON'T!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:47 AM

Fracking is another one of those "tools" that can be misused. Isn't it facinating how humans not only figure out how to make tools, but then just as quickly figure out to misuse them. sigh...

It's a big issue here in western New York, because just to the south in Pensylvannia it's in use... and done well and done poorly by the assorted companies. If there's a buck to be made, there is always someone who will try to squeeze out a little more profit.

The seismic activity is usually local subsidence caused by the removal or addition of fluid deep into the ground, and relating very closely to what geologic formations are in the vacinity. It's a complex issue with no easy answers, other than those I see on bumper stickers...


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 12:00 PM

CS: Not being well read on the matter, I'd like to understand the politics and economics behind this countries failure to pursue successful approaches in renewable energy. So far as I know, some Northern European countries have been successfully investing in and implementing positive strategies for energy usage reduction and green or renewable resources for decades now

Well Germany, for so long held up as a bastion of energy "greenness" is bringing on line new coal-fired power stations, with even more in the pipeline (23 in total...yes, 23!), in recognition of the fact that renewables simply can't replace the lost capacity as they shut down their nuclear stations over the next few years, or ther new capacity required for the future. Germany has also admitted that their emphasis on wind and solar power has turned out to be unaffordably expensive and if the balance is not changed it will start to put them at an economic disadvantage for manufacturing. Figures released in August show that the actual productivity of Germany's wind power base over the last decade has averaged 16.3%, which is a very poor return on investment.

Denmark is also re-appraising the economics of its "dash for wind" of the last decades.

So not all is as rosy in the garden of other northern European countries as people are generally led to believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 12:16 PM

In fact the earthquakes are not related to fracking itself. Instead they are caused by deep injection disposal of fracking fluids (and other fluids...eg nerve gas at the Rocky Mountain Arsenal in the 1970s...would probably happen for deep injection of CO2 for sequestration also).

It is too easy to wrap all the phenomena together and call it all "fracking". There was a story in the news a few weeks ago about how Schlumberger lost a "radioactive fracking tool" along a Texas highway. Well, it wasn't a fracking tool at all. It was a standard gamma-gamma density logging sonde of the type that is used in many industries (groundwater production, monitoring, and clean-up among them). But it was a great opportunity for a headline writer to put radioactive and fracking in the same phrase.

A little technical knowledge and accurate reporting would help to steer this global discussion in good directions (and *really* protect Mother Earth and her irresponsible humans).


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 12:37 PM

"...in truth if there was an ounce of sense in the government we would be investing in R&D..."

Sense and government in the same sentence, Sugarfoot Jack? Shome mishtake, shurely.

"Wind farms are partially the answer, it's just for some reason the toffs want to destroy that particular industry"

I'm afraid that wind-farms are not even a partial answer. (A) they don't produce when the wind isn't blowing which is in most cases when we need them most, as in the last couple of days (UK), and (B) they require 100% backup for when the wind isn't blowing and that backup has to be kept spinning inefficiently even when the wind is blowing as it can't be brought on-stream immediately from cold. I've seen estimates that windmills make no net reduction in our fossil-fuel usage.

And on planet Earth, the toffs seem to be all in favour of windmills: take Sir Reginald Sheffield, Baronet (who just happens to be the Prime Minister's father-in-law) who has 400 turbines on his Lincolnshire estate, and draws from them £1K a day in rent; nice if you can get it. Your sound-bites seem to draw more from Marx than reality.

"Oh, and there's a huge fuck-off nuclear fission reactor showering our beleaguered planet with nearly terrawatts of energy daily..."

If you're going to invoke science, get it right, FFS, otherwise you just sound like a prat. That's "fission" spelled "fusion." The same number of terawatts fall secondly, minutely and monthly as fall daily, just as a 1KW fire emits a KW between 5pm and 6pm on Tuesday, just as it does all day Tuesday. And the total solar radiation falling on Earth is something like a hundred thousand terawatts, not "nearly terawatts"


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Ringer
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 12:39 PM

Sorry: that last one was from me. It's so long since I posted here that my cookie had expired.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 01:21 PM

Phelim McAleer (Irish journalist and documentary filmmaker) asked Matt Damon a question recently that no other professional journalist will likely ask the actor during the star's current publicity tour.

Damon's new film, "Promised Land," is by all early accounts an assault on the practice of fracking as well as oil companies.

Until he saw the credits Damion "was Not aware" his film's funding came from the oil rich royal families of the United Arab Emirates.

Energy independence is on the near horizon for the North American continent. In 2012 the United States has become a net exporter of fuel for the first time in more than 60 years. By 2030 it is predicted to become the world's largest exporter.   

PLEASE take a look at the short video at www.fracknation.com
Frack Nation

Sincerely,
Gargoyle



Gas Lands was sulphurous, stinky leftest-green.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 01:42 PM

"I really was trying to resist posting on here"

If all you can do is slag off another poster, I think the reply is "must try harder".


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 03:03 PM

Article that does not praise fracking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,Psychomorris
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 03:08 PM

It's interesting to read of the comments posted and the attempts to mediate on them. All either arguing against or trying to justify the usage and methodology. Money gain leads to wanting more. There are no morals where money is concerned. It does not matter what could happen. Those who make money will do so because that is acceptable to our society. The casualties or outcomes in the future, do not concern those who will benefit financially. I am not talking of the public.
We do need to be aware that we are an island not a continent. We cannot absorb the impact of anything that has the potential to damage our ecological structures.We are also demographically crowded. Activity of any sort has a greater impact. For every action is an equal and opposite reaction. A law of physics not an emotive tear stained arguement.Rob Naylor is not wrong and neither is Lizzie, both to me believe in what they believe. I believe those who gain do not care what either believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 03:35 PM

Look forward to more house collapses, for one thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 03:46 PM

Gutted, Liz? We feel the same here.

I sometimes wonder if these same comapies are getting into selling bottled water... >;-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 04:32 PM

Only if you can ignite the gas coming out of the top of the water bottle when you open 'em, gnu.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 05:19 PM

I'm not *just* gutted, gnu, I'm ragingly angry!   I'm so fecking fuming that a TINY group of people feel they have the power to take decisions which will affect so many people in a negative way...let alone the shocking damage it will do to Mother Earth.

I'm fuming that those who CARE for Mother Earth are made out to be total loonies who these Sociopathic Dimwits laugh at and get others to laugh at too.

Fitz, on BBC Radio Devon was very kind letting me go on and on as I did. I've spoken to him before about other things, so he knows I'm emotional, but I also think that he too is desperately uneasy about what has happened today..

I feel like I'm living in the days of The Emperor's New Clothes, but his clothes this time, instead of being Invisible are weighted down with Insane Decisions and The People stand around smiling, whilst he dangles carrots of 'Cheaper Gas - Fracking Jobs - Dams in The Rainforest - Pipe Lines - Tar Sands - Oil Exploration in The Arctic - Mining - 800 new airports in Brazil...and his People stand around him saying "Ooh, THAT's a GOOD idea!!" as they lick their lips in happiness, dreaming of his Golden Future....

But, over in the corner stands the llittle boy shouting out "The Emperor is MAD! The Emperor is INSANE! He will make your children's lives HELL! He will ruin Mother Earth IRREVERSIBLY!"

Yet, all The People do is try to silence him...shooo him away...tell him how silly he is...and then laugh to each other about him....

It is Beyond Me...totally Beyond Me...


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 06:06 PM

Well, most everything is beyond you, Liz - no surprises here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 07:22 PM

:0)

New FB photo to share, for those who may want to...


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 07:26 PM

Fruck it, that link above goes to my FB page...sorry about that..

THIS is what I *meant* to link to....it's good, really, it is! :0)

New FB fracking photo to share, for those who may want to...


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 08:41 PM

Just back from a gig to fing the thread we where we were arguimg has been vlosed down Lizzie.

Read through this thread - why is fracking different from mining - after all Lancashire must be honeycombed with coalmines like many other counties?

ordinary people don't seem to do very well in any of the bonanza economic miracles.   I think its got to be about whether this fracking does any real harm to the environment. Opinion seems to be divided.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 09:31 PM

Al... google "gasland"... and THAT is just a start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 10:30 PM

Big Al Whittle -

please google our most ignorant Gnu's suggestion....read and digest pages in full....

Then... for a balence point ... the FrackNation.com noted above.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

For Wyoming and Colorado the access to the Niobrara oil AND gas has been a "god send" relief to decades of hard times. If jealous liz posts again...I will pump out the numbers...they are an astounding chorus singing the praises of free - enterprise and capitalism....and the generous bounty that fows with reduced taxes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:16 PM

This gal from FrackNation sure does nail it, Garg. Thanks for the heads up..


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:18 PM

Thank u!

Very interesting. I wonder how they have kept it this quiet. If the evidence is so irrefutable, why are people even considering it.

I have a friend who is a geologist. i will ask him about it. omething so vital - you would think he would be going on about it all the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 03:20 AM

"....an astounding chorus singing the praises of free - enterprise and capitalism"

Ah yes, free enterprise and capitalism...now where did that lead us? Surely not to the worst financial crisis the west has ever known? I'm reminded of Oscar Wilde's words about knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.

I still haven't made up my mind about fracking as I haven't had time to look at the pros and cons in detail, but it would appear that, in the UK at least, the benefits don't outweigh the risks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Ringer
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 04:27 AM

The OP is misleading. The government has permitted Cuadrilla only to explore, not to produce.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:10 AM

"If you're going to invoke science, get it right, FFS, otherwise you just sound like a prat."

Fair enough, I was at the arse-end of a busy day (and I am a prat). My mistakes. Anyhow, the concept is sound.

I'm not against fracking, if it's done properly. However as has been mentioned before there are big question marks over the safety of hydrocarbon extraction and the industry has shown a rather lax approach to the subject in the past, with often fatal consequences for its own employees and catastrophic for the ecosystems where safety measures have been inadequate. Of course this goes for all hydrocarbons, which we are now forced to extract by going into increasingly hostile environments that pose a real risk for the workers and environment, with operations facing conditions that are possibly beyond their ability to cope with.

At some point we need to grow up and face the problem of energy consumption and the climate disruption it is causing. The developing nations will have to use alternative technologies to meet their energy needs as the wealthy corporate-run nations drive up the cost of energy as they screw every penny from their own populations. In those countries which are developing the infrastructure for a hydrocarbon-centric energy network simply doesn't exist and they couldn't afford it anyway, and which might be vulnerable in politically unstable countries. These countries will develop locally-centred renewable, clean energy solutions that can be maintained without involving some profiteering suit, and they'll be all the better for it.

It should be pretty obvious that were the feckless slimeballs in charge of this country actually interested in long-term regeneration we could get the jump on the other rich countries by developing a green energy industry that researches and manufactures clean, renewable energy solutions. We could sell this to those developing countries, and everyone else who will have to follow eventually. Unfortunately both the neo-tory wasters that were the previous New Labour government and the current shower of posh boys with the capitalist cock-up-their-arses didn't have the wit or intelligence to see that the opportunity was there, and ripe for development.

As Gideon and his henchman (the execrable bilgebag that is Owen Patterson) gleefully kick the green industry into touch we are seeing a future industry, which we have the brains and brawn to make us world leaders in, die before its even got started. Their 'Green Deal' initiative is a pretty pathetic and risible attempt to make us all make our houses more energy efficient by, er, making us pay for it (whilst energy-guzzling big businesses are exempted from paying the additional green development costs in the energy bill introduced in November). In effect, the 'Green Deal' is total non-starter as poor and middle-income people will never be able to afford it. Of course, as the energy bills rocket due to the ever-incresing cost of hydrocarbons our most vulnerable suffer over the winter . . . but then there can never be enough dead pensioners to change Gideon's nasty little mind. He and his mates can afford it; it's only a few quid, so what the fuck?

We are a country that produces the some of the best scientists, engineers and entrepreneurs in the world, and this is an opportunity that whomever is running the country seems determined to piss up the wall, and that is very, very wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:12 AM

Big Al -

"I have a friend who is a geologist. i will ask him about it. omething so vital - you would think he would be going on about it all the time."

Geologists are on about this *all* the time. What you see on the news and in the movies is so wrong and inane (on both sides) that we usually talk amongst ourselves. I am teaching a course to try to correct this. If anyone is going to jump into arguments about fracking, they really ought to understand the history and technology (and ubiquity) of it so they can fight the proper fights...and not get their panties in a bunch over silly things when there are really realy serious issue involved that the panty bunchers aren't even aware of.

You are doing the sensible first thing...go!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 09:31 AM

All is not quiet on the western front.

Davita and Goliath


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 11:50 AM

Great name ....Klippenstein.

Baron Von Klippenstein from Baden Baden....


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 12:02 PM

Hoo-Bloody-Ray. It`s about time. The quicker we get it out and start generating electricity, the better. I`m not at all convinced of the viability of the "green" alternatives. The sheer amount of energy we NEED to sustain everything in these blessed islands calls for all the stops to be taken out, carbon products and nuclear fission leading the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 12:22 PM

I don't know why they are considering it either. The hot air and bullshit produced on the internet every day is enough to power a small planet...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 01:38 PM

As a one-time Pennsylvanian, this issue is of great interest to me, firstly, because Pennsylvania is at the center of the fracking controversy, and secondly, because I am very familiar with the Centralia Coal Fires.

The coal fires, if you don't know, are coal seam fires that have been burning in the the tunnels under Centralia since a garbage fire accidentally ignited them 1962, much to the chagrin of everyone who once lived and worked there. No one has been able to put them out.

I didn't realize it for many years, but the Centralia fires are far from isolated. There are hundreds of these fires spewing toxic and inflammable gases from mines all around the world. And they are not a new phenomenon. Apparently, a coal seam fire in Germany burned for more than 400 years.

Now, given that many of the posters in this thread are from the UK, and have a charming tendency to say,"Well, that is the sort of thing you'd expect in America", I tried to find info on Coal Seam Fires in
the British Isles. I didn't find anything, but I found out that there are currently efforts to introduce Underground Coal Gassification, which, in quick brushstrokes, is a method of generating mineable gas by setting coal seam fires.

Now, far be it from me to encourage Lizzie Cornish in anyway, but...


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 06:41 PM

What Al's geologist friend said

1) Will it happen?

Yes. A huge source of wealth - no government with voters to bribe and books to balance could resist that wodge.

2) Will it do huge environmental damage?

Not half! Bound to. In a way though, nothing we haven't seen in mining areas before, subsidence of roads an buildings. if some bright spark came up with coal mining tomorrow - blasting underground canyons = it would cause concern. We get explosions already through gas coming up through shale.

3) Had he seen Gasland, and did he think we would be getting polluted water supplies. gas coming out of the water taps?

Yes he's seen it. Doesn't think it would effect water supply in England, which is mainly got from chalk and limestone areas - not shale areas where the fracking is going on.

Just a brief conversation. there are boumd to be flaws in his reasoning, but anyway - I thought I'd report back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:08 AM

Thanks for the report, Big Al.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 05:15 AM

Point three is helpful to hear Al, that was my primary concern as clean water is essential for the health and survival of all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,Big Al whittle
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:21 AM

Well that's only one geologists thoughts. I suspect it would only take one mouthful of poison to convince you he was talking bollocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 04:04 AM

As someone working in the energy sector (both renewables and fossil) I have to agree with your geologist friend regarding water supplies. Also, the shade beds where fracking might occur in UK are in general much deeper thasn chalk or limestone sediments, and usually with impermeable layers between them. The danger point in mixed geology areas, AFAICS, would be mainly where the vertical elements of the wells being drilled penetrate shallower permeable layers which may have water percolating through them. As long as the well casings are properly constructed, and to a quality where there is negligible danger of the casings being damaged by any likely tremors caused by the fracking itself, there shouldn't be a problem.

So the solution for UK water integrity lies in careful choice of the geological structures where fracking is allowed, tight specificatons for well casing and frequent monitoring of the same, including specific requirements for additional checks after any tremors detected above a certain level.

Contrary to the opinions exprtessed by a section of the posters here, those of us working in the energy sector are, in general, neither rapacious loonies, "suits" in big hats nor complete idiots without the abiulity to analyse risk.

In fact, I've just spent a fair amount of time as part of a team doing a Risk Analysis for a project coming up next year. We now have about 10 people in our own organisation engaged full-time in doing an Environmental Impact Assessment on the same project as an independent check on a similar assessment carried out by the energy company itself. My company also has an antire Division engaged in water quality monitoring, everywhere from Ulan Baator to Cumbria.

I recall a number of years ago a seismic survey vessel that I was on being shadowed and disrupted by a Greenpeace vessel. Our own vessel was state of the art and we followed a "no waste escape" policy. All waste lubes were tanked for disposal ashore, we had dry waste compactors, an incinerator with dioxin scrubbers fitted and a policy that no-one, ever, threw *anything*, not even a cigarette end, overboard, on pzin of instant dismissal. The greenpeace vessel, by contrast, was pissing oil from its drive shaft (our crew change chopper could see a 4 mile slick behind it!) and they regularly threw all their gash over the side, including plastics (water bottles etc). We took photos but our client wouldn't let us use them.

So it's not always black/ white, and the "good guys" are not always as good as they like to portray themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 09:40 AM

Trouble is Rob. The Privatise the Pisspot party are in power, and New Labour aren't much better.

So a member of of the Thatcher fan club comes along and says to his mate in parliament - I'll do the job for a fiver and you can have a share option.

Suddenly those well casings are made of shite and sausages.

And some of the people above will be voting for it, and telling us we're reds under the bed for doubting the integrity of these fine upstanding public servants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:04 AM

I can see the worry, Al, but it really doesn't work that way (except around the periphery) in the energy sector in the UK any more. We're not in the world of JR or Algy Cluff any more, except in the case of a few "bottom feeder" firms that don't have the wherewithall to finance (or borrow) these kinds of project.

When I'm doing project management (as opposed to the technical/ geodetic part of my work) I spend by far the biggest proportion of my time sorting out Risk Assessments, Environmental Impact Assessments, Health and Safety (including technical specs to mitigate risk factors) and organising cetaean/ marine mammal observers, fisheries protection officers and environmental monitoring teams. The actual technical side of conducting a survey or drilling a well is a tiny part of a whole, which is heavily regulated and requires in most cases significantly more than "box ticking". A project I'm managing now off the UK has 8 environmental scientists assigned to monitor the work and only 12 technical staff actually doing it!

So it's not quite as simple as saying "gizza share option and you can make your casings out of plasticine".


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 11:06 AM

Well I don't doubt your sincerirty Rob, but we DO have other examples of privatisation and how they have gone - enough to give us cause for concern.

The problem isn't technical - its human frailty, cupidity, original sin - call it what you will.

Was there ever a more rained upon nation, and yet we have water shortages every year. Somehow Murdoch owns our free press. Our troops march into battles in places in the world no one gives a shit about, with dodgy equipment supplied by the shoddiest suppliers. Its cheaper to take a gas guzzling plane to Scotland than a train.

And as someone said - water - well its a pretty basic need. At one point, I believe the private water company was supplying the city of Sheffiels with 20% rat piss. Are you sure we can trust these people Rob - they don't have a good track record.

The problem is that the wealth of the country still resides in the pockets of the same families who were around in the 18th century, and reinvestment isn't happening. Which brings us back to William and Kate. (I agree Lizzie a marvellous young couple! An example to us all!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:54 PM

Frucking Frack Trucks, and soon, Cuadrilla will be filling OUR country with them too, driving folks in towns and villages around their Wells, almost half insane with the noise and pollution..But hey, THIS is frucking CLEAN energy, right?

You'll need to be logged in to FB to see this video.

Oh, and 'Killer' who's mentioned at the start is John's chihuahua.This is what he and his neighbours now endure every single day in his part of Pennsylvania. He told me it used to be a really quiet mountain road, but now the mountain, the forest, the wildlife, have all taken such a terrible battering that he goes up to the mountain with his family at times and just cries when he see the shocking damage that fracking has done.   

Frucking Fracking Trucks 24/7!!!!!

This is NOT SAFE!!
HOW can ANYONE tell me this is safe when the very first time Cuadrilla fracked here they caused a frucking earthquake! HOW can they tell me that our water is safe when they have NO idea what will happen and NO idea what this frucking industry even puts INTO the water they blast the shale apart with, because frucking Dick Cheney brought in laws, at least in the States, whilst he was still vice-president, to say the industry did NOT have to disclose the chemicals they were using???!!!

I mean...WTF is that all about??????
Of course, Cheney was the head of Halliburton at the time...

Now, tell me, PLEASE, that there is NOT a connection here between the Bastards BLASTING DEADLY CHEMICALS into our planet, whilst ensuring that NO-ONE needs to say what they are and the deep corruption of The Corporate Fracking Bastards and American politicians!

And hey, look what I've just found! The Slimey Little Freckers!! Make them DRINK their own chemicals....that's the BEST way to test them..

Halliburton (oh we're SO honest!) 'Fluids Disclosure' page


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:59 PM

Take a pill, Liz.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:12 PM

"Take a pill, Liz zie"

I have. It's an Anti-Fecking-Stalkers Pill which is why I'm now able to ignore most of your posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:41 PM

YO! A mod? Please... ONE FRACKING thread?

This is just gonna get harder and harder to follow and THIS is important!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:16 AM

So, it goes like this. We have been using electricity for more years than any of us have been alive. That fuel that generates this electricity has been gathered in ways that none of which can be described as clean. Coal, oil, gas, nuclear and fracking. Wind farms and water powered generators are damned by the Nimbys and other ways are in their infancy.

Now, when it becomes apparent that generating electricity in traditional ways is neither sustainable or environmental friendly the very people who use that electricity tell the rest of the world, usually people who have not had it's benefits before, that they must stop generating it. The way in which they do this is to use the internet, presumably on their self-powered computers, to whinge and moan and generally do nothing of any use whatsoever. Like, maybe, giving up their hourly rants, doing away with their computers and going back to basics, like they preach all the time.

Seeing as this is a folk music forum I am reminded of Fred Wedlocks talking blues which sums up the hypocrisy brilliantly .

"Smash violence. Kill the warmongers. Get your arse over here on Saturday man, we're having a peace riot!"

Now, if those advocating that we should not be using alternatives could use the energy they expend to come up with something that IS viable then maybe we would take more notice of them. If they were to go to the Cantonese peasant or Bolivian Hill farmer and tell then in person that they must NOT use this wonderful technology that the rest of us have benefited from for over a hundred years then they would be doing something positive. And if they survived those meetings I would happily shake their hand. Until that time I am sure I can be excused for not joining a campaign that involves using even more energy for no reason than making them feel better about themselves.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 04:16 AM

Get over it Lizzy or get therapy.

Church or secular counsiling..

It is the start of a new week. You are whipping yourself into a frenzy.
Find someone at church or a therapist to talk with.

Sincerely
Gargoyle

A tastey Pastey is a terrible thong to waiste.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 06:01 AM

I think you may be have to decide what you want to do, Lizzie. Throw strops or communicate your concerns about environmental issues.

I didn't realise you had banned me on facebook. I sort of hoped you realised that i didn't know any native Americans and (having spent a lifetime struggling with technology in the vain hope of being heard as a musician), I am bit unsympathetic to people who don't engage in the struggle, but whose message seems to be -give me a home where the buffalo roam.

i sort of hoped you had got over that.

You obviously know something about this fracking business and have given it some thought. You need to martial the information and present the main point cogently, calmly and stop spitting feathers at us.

Kind regards

al


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:16 PM

I'm not sure that this is the best thread for new information, but it appears to be the most recent one where anything has been posted.

While the effect is unclear, a new agreement may offer some indication that some of the hazards of fracking may be reduced in one part of the US

Energy firms, environmental groups agree on tough new fracking standards

"PITTSBURGH -- In an unlikely partnership between longtime adversaries, some of the nation's biggest energy companies and environmental groups have agreed on a voluntary set of standards for gas and oil fracking in the Northeast that appear to go further than existing state and federal pollution regulations."

I'll leave it to those interested to check out the full report at the link. It may be encouraging that a degree of "cooperation" is shown, but whether those who "agreed" follow through with improvements will need to be watched for a while before planning the party.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 08:09 PM

Fracking = Taking clean water, pumping it into the ground with poisonous chemicals, poisoning the water below and getting less energy than we could get using a combination or Earth friendly renewable energy sources...

In other words??? Pretty fracked up...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Fracking now give the go-ahead in the UK
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:23 AM

Any extractive industry causes some harm to the environment. Modern society is entirely dependant upon these industries-without them life would become very harsh for the survivors.
Hopefully some lessons have been learnt over time. The mining disaster of Abervan was a catastrophe that could and should have been avoided.
Today there is some attempt to quantify risk by way of environmental impact statements. Not a perfect solution but a step in the right direction.
Personally I would have no problem with fracking if indenpendant auditors monitor the process at all stages. This is common for landfill cell construction.
The techniques for fracking are not vastly different to those employed for oil or gas wells. The major problem would appear to be departures from the original planning submission on the grounds of expediency.
Independant monitoring would prevent this from happening.
Issues of water source contamination would seem superficially to be due to lack of casing integrity, and there are a variety of ways of checking this.


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