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Subject: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: nutty Date: 13 Dec 12 - 07:06 AM More folk customs from around the country introduced by Rachel and Becky. BBC 4 Sunday 16 th December at 8pm I really enjoyed their last foray into TV presentation so am looking forward to this. The website says that it will also be available on iPlayer soon. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,George Henderson Date: 13 Dec 12 - 07:28 AM I will tune in to that. Great to see that they are coming to Bray in Ireland next February 28th, Mermaid Arts Centre. Tickets are now on sale at €20 (comcessions €18) with a 10% discount if bought before Christmas. going fast. They will be supported by the Keelers. Really looking forward to this event. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: nutty Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:59 AM That makes it a real family event as dad George is a member of the Keelers. He also used to be in the Redcar Sword Dancers who, I understand, are also appearing in the programme. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Will Fly Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:25 PM Just watching this as I write - great programme. Good shots inside the Royal at Dungworth, Bonfire Night in Lewes, Longsword near Hartlepool... |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Paul Davenport Date: 16 Dec 12 - 04:28 PM Lovely programme. The girls handled it very well being both informative but also with a light touch. The two programmes ought to be aired back to back to get the whole picture! |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 16 Dec 12 - 04:37 PM Great fun spotting the folk-faces in the onlookers - Jon Boden, Phil & Cath Tyler - and dozens more! It's a small world... |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Tootler Date: 16 Dec 12 - 04:52 PM |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Tootler Date: 16 Dec 12 - 04:56 PM Oops, sorry pressed the wrong button. Excellent programme, though. Celibration of English Folk traditions which too often have been sneered at by the Grauniati in recent years. Yes, and great fun spotting familiar faces. Saw quite a few. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,FloraG Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:54 AM Ah bless. I thought they did well on this one - better than previous ones. Less of ' heres me morris dancing' heres me sword dancing ' heres me carrying a barrel' heres me singing. More on the actual traditions. FloraG |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,achmelvich Date: 17 Dec 12 - 04:33 AM very enjoyable programme - don't know if folk abroad can get bbc i-player but if you can it should help you realise that we are a very strange lot. and there are hundreds more idiosyncratic local traditions going back over the centuries. i particularly like the way that a whole town can throw small exploding fireworks at 'the pope' without it being offensive or anyone taking offense. i enjoy any expression of lingering dissent or living radicalism - (and 'tootler' i read the guardian and have never seen it sneered at there, just by lazy comedians) the folk and morris tradition is still alive and kicking |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: doc.tom Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:03 AM Good programme. Nice to avoid the contempt with which our traditions tend to be covered by the media - and even a comment or two about that! Slightly reminiscent of doc's Future of Things Past - but personality-led as is the fashion. I wondered if they'd get Dad's song into the Allendale section - of course they did. Here's to more. TomB |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST Date: 17 Dec 12 - 07:15 AM A very enjoyable programme; lovely to see Dave Eyre, and other familiar faces. Does that mean Dave is now a Venerable English Tradition? Matthew (non-sneering Guardian reader) :-) |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,allan fcmm Date: 17 Dec 12 - 07:35 AM I see that it is being repeated on Friday 21st Dec at 1am on BBC4. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 17 Dec 12 - 08:13 AM No wassail but otherwise very good |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,henryp Date: 17 Dec 12 - 08:50 AM If you have an interest in Traditional Customs, the calendar published each year by Hedingham Fair (Colin and Karen Cater) is an invaluable source of information. The 2013 calendar has a list of wassails - getting on for 200 - from Penzance to Perthshire. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Phil Edwards Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:33 AM i particularly like the way that a whole town can throw small exploding fireworks at 'the pope' without it being offensive or anyone taking offense That part freaked me out slightly, and I'm not even Catholic. But I think a real service that programme did to some of these traditions was making it plain that they're not all hey-nonny-nonny hankie-flapping (and I've got nothing against hankie-flapping in its place). There's some scary stuff going on out there - some of those ceremonies were genuinely alarming, culturally, physically or both. Good! |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Herga Kitty Date: 17 Dec 12 - 11:48 AM I watched it and enjoyed it last night - now planning to record the repeat in the early hours of Friday morning so I can see how many old friends I failed to spot the first time round! Kitty |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,Guest Date: 17 Dec 12 - 12:05 PM I believe you can watch and record at the same time (if you want to). That's what we did! |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: doc.tom Date: 18 Dec 12 - 06:14 AM I'm with you Phil. Amusing to hear how rationalisation of what we do develops as prevailing social attitudes change - blacking up, popery, H&S, etc. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: r.padgett Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:03 PM Yes seen it twice now and spotted one or two folkies I was impressed and amazed at the Lewes Bonfire spectacular! Did anyone spot the guys spendinga penny? Lol ~ alcohol clearly to the fore once again! Yes very informative and shows just how keen we in England love to be part of and involved in the traditions of the country despite Health and Safety concerns, what year are we in 2013 (very near!) Ray |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Les in Chorlton Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:41 PM If you seriously doubt the importance of H & S watch mothers with young children on busy roads or near fires Best wishes |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: NormanD Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:27 PM I'm sure there are many UK Mudcatters who can recall how wild some of the Bonfire activities were during their childhoods. In my case, in Northampton, streets would organise their own 'bonnies', raiding rival areas for firewood, breaking up their stacks, etc. Some firework displays would be carefully organised, but wilful disregard generally took over, with bangers aimed at each other or let off in tin cans or even jam jars, and other acts of casual cruelty I won't even mention. The only music I can recall being involved was whatever people were singing at the time - variations of pop songs, advertising jingles, etc. The main thing that was passed on through the years was protection of territory and having a scrap. This was probably little different from most other parts of the country and I'm sure it continues these days. A ritual or living folk tradition? Who knows what you'd call it. It probably gets defined (and recollected or studied in later years) once it gets written down. The tv prog is great fun and very entertaining. One of the Unthanks did seem to get an eyeful of spark from a fire that looked like it caused her some discomfort. Little H&S considerations, for the most part! |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,JohnB Date: 19 Dec 12 - 01:29 AM Not sure what happened then, it just posted as I was typing. Anyhow, really enjoyed the prog (I am not really an Unthanks fan)thought they did a good job. Recognized: Jim McGeehan, Dave Eyre, Jon Boden, Grenoside Sword and what I thought was Ouse Washes Molly. JohnB who watched it in Canada thanks to Expatshield. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:04 AM From an H&S point of view, and sheer spectacle, there's no tar barrels like those on offer at Ottery Saint Mary - oddly absent from the Unthanks show - but featured in The Future of Things Past. Always some great YouTube footage & this year is no exception... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh8oNBl6dmo |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,CJB Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:39 AM T.V. progs on BBC iPLayer can be viewed overseas using ExpatShield or equivalnt. Also this applies to 'UK-only' progs on YouTube such as from Channel 4 and 5. If you want to download a Beeb t.v. prog. sans DRM or one from YouTube and you are overseas start up ExpatShield, then use get_iplayer or a YouTube downloader. RadioDownloader will get most (all?) Beeb radio progs. and all podcatss anywhere and certainly works in Thailand, New Zealand and Europe, etc. TheBox.bz has many UK t.v. progs. RadioArchive.cc has many radio progs. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST Date: 23 Dec 12 - 04:10 AM the future of things past is on youtube here for those that enjoyed this programme! http://youtu.be/g1HhfjT70HY |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST Date: 23 Dec 12 - 06:33 AM Legally? http://youtu.be/g1HhfjT70HY |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:02 AM Cheers, Guest. TFOTP is a much more satisfying programme than one The Unthanks did & I remember it with great affection. All the way through their Allendale Tar Barrel segment I had my fingers crossed - please don't sing the song, please don't sing the song, please don't sing the song... - but they did! An appealing rough & ready rendering in someone's kitchen, but even so... Even with TFOTP I could do with the commentary. All you need is the footage without the folky speculations as to what they might 'mean' or 'signify'. The Medium is the Message! And this stuff was going on long before some joker invented the ghastly notion of Folklore. PS - Love The Unthanks very dearly, their version of A Tree Song (Oak Ash & Thorn) is definitive & their cover of Starless ain't bad either (hardly definitive but would we expect it to be? HERE'S the original for folkies who've never ventured down that particular path). Just don't like that song - it's a personal thing. I like my rituals wild and feral and without the Folk Gloss... |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST Date: 23 Dec 12 - 09:09 AM Another version of TFOTP (part 1) is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr69U2Ut0dE |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST Date: 23 Dec 12 - 10:41 AM I just hope that folk from outside the north east don't think we're all as miserable as the Unthanks |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,henryp Date: 23 Dec 12 - 02:17 PM Mark Steel devoted an evening to the oddities of Ottery St Mary on BBC Radio 4 last week. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST Date: 24 Dec 12 - 06:35 AM Mark Steel at Ottery St Mary http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01pc3by Episode 4 Series 4 Episode 4 of 6 AVAILABILITY:2 DAYS LEFT TO LISTEN Duration: 30 minutes First broadcast: Wednesday 19 December 2012 Comedian Mark Steel returns with a new series, looking under the surface of some of the UK's more distinctive towns to shed some light on the people, history, rivalries, slang, traditions, and eccentricities that makes them unique. Creating a bespoke stand-up set for each town, Mark performs the show in front of a local audience. As well as examining the less visited areas of Britain, Mark uncovers stories and experiences that resonate with us all as we recognise the quirkiness of the British way of life and the rich tapestry of remarkable events and people who have shaped where we live. During this 4th series of 'Mark Steel's In Town', Mark will visit Tobermory, Whitehaven, Handsworth, Ottery St Mary, Corby, and Chipping Norton. This week, Mark visits Ottery St Mary in Devon to discuss Coleridge's embarrassing childhood, pixies, and what happens when you put five thousand people in a square with a lit tar barrel. Additional material by Pete Sinclair. Produced by Sam Bryant. Get it from iPlayer or RadioDownloader |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 24 Dec 12 - 07:53 AM "I just hope that folk from outside the north east don't think we're all as miserable as the Unthanks". The programme was extremely well produced and edited. I particularly liked the fact the fact that each custom was lingered over long enough for people to grasp the sense of it. Also, the extensive intercutting of modern and archive footage to convey the feeling of continuity. But why, and let me say that I have nothing whatsoever against the Unthanks whom I've never met and never heard, did they have to dominate the whole thing. Unthanks being tutored in sword dancing. Unthanks digging the Antrobus play. Unthanks tossing pancakes. Unthanks singing an unbelievably dreary song about the Allendale fire festival right in the middle of someone else's Allendale fire festival. (Yes, I know they're from Northumbria, and so is Allendale, but the place they grew up in is about thirty miles away from where the festival takes place. As a seasoned observer of calendar customs all over the country, I learned a long time ago never to intrude. They are not yours or mine. Calendar customs belong to local communities, without whom they would never exist.) It's their beanfeast and it's part of their lives, and without their involvement these things would never exist. I don't know why it is, but every time anyone makes a documentary about anything to do with folk, they have to have a 'name' to front it. Doesn't matter a twopenny damn whether the 'name' knows anything about the item under scrutiny, just so long as they're well known and they can toss pancakes. Remember the good old days when Bert Lloyd used to present radio and tv programmes on all manner of esoteric folklore subjects? Expert, erudite and entertaining, just the way it should be. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Valmai Goodyear Date: 24 Dec 12 - 08:13 AM A few moments from Cliffe Bonfire Society's final procession after the crowds have gone home and we Bonfire Boys have Lewes to ourselves. Turn the volume up and you'll feel that the Chinese crackers are in the room with you. Valmai (Lewes) |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Les in Chorlton Date: 24 Dec 12 - 10:03 AM Fire and darkness are a very powerful combination and drama is an essential feature of human behaviour. All knids of cultures expolore their power. I once worked on an American Summer Camp. About half way through the 6 odd weeks the children and young people ( 8 - 14 years) were divided into one of two teams reds or greys. This was a massive event carried out at night, in the dark, on a small field surrounded by woods. Torches burned and a drummer with a full kit played endlessly. An adult stood on a platform at the end of a ramp and each child in turn ran up the ramp to the sound of his name. The adult raised both arms, a red glove and a grey glove, then one fell on the child's shoulder, "the crowd went wild" so to speak. It was one of the most scarry experiences I have ever witnessed - and I was outside as an adult. For the next week the two sides competed at every sport. Children cried when they lost. I went to a workshop about 40 years on English Fire Festivities - by Bert Lloyd or maybe Tony Foxworthy, I cannot really remember. Whoever it was made a lot of the non-christian/ pre-christian aspect of these events which I suspect we would now doubt, but I do remember whoever it was saying that at Lewes they would not feel easy if they were a catholic at that event. When we seek to reclaim or revive or simply continue old traditions can this always be caried out 'safely'. Best wishes Les |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: nutty Date: 24 Dec 12 - 10:27 AM For Fred and the uninitiated - The Tar Barrel song was written by one George Unthank and is sung with pride by the girls - Good on em , I say. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Tradsinger Date: 24 Dec 12 - 05:42 PM Good programme, I agree with PEASANT that it would have been good to have some wassailing, both the house-to-house type and the orchard wassail. Good English winter traditions. But a good effort. Tradsinger |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST Date: 25 Dec 12 - 02:39 AM "The Tar Barrel song was written by one George Unthank and is sung with pride by the girls" Plus I'd imagine the good folk of Allendale are on the whole proud of the song too. I can't imagine they are quite as insular as the other post seems to suggest they'd be. Don't have personal knowledge of it as such but come from just across the border and here the locals of the various towns tend to be delighted when others take an interest and contribute to festivities etc! |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 25 Dec 12 - 02:40 AM Sorry that last post was me. different puter |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: r.padgett Date: 25 Dec 12 - 06:24 AM Well I don't agree with Fred above Unthanks did a great job in my view on this documentary and more power to their elbows! I believe that the sisters do have their own lives away from their origins and families etc Early life surrounded by singers such as George, Pete Wood, Jim Mageean, Alan Fitzsimmons, musicians and local traditions and a life of entertaining make them ideally placed to empathise with the Winter and other seasonal traditions I enjoyed the film clips and the presentational style which was not too gushing but factual and participative Good to see Doc Rowe involved too a true unsung hero of the Folk Traditions and inspired film maker (tho not the main film maker here!) Ray |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 25 Dec 12 - 07:20 AM Well, I suppose it depends on whether you want to watch seasonal customs or whether you want to watch the Unthanks. Personally, I'm wondering how far they'd be prepared to go with all this participation stuff. After all, it was once thought that many of our winter customs originated with the ritual sacrifice of delectable young maidens. Pacifying the Gods and killing off the old year and all that. That conjures up a very bizarre image indeed; the Unthanks being sacrificed on the altar of tv ratings to assuage the wrath of the great God BBC. Go for it girls. That's one honour they certainly wouldn't have awarded to David Attenborough. Hey ho. Merry Christmas everyone. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Les in Chorlton Date: 25 Dec 12 - 08:08 AM How about the ritual slaughter of folklorists fred |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Manitas_at_home Date: 25 Dec 12 - 08:10 AM I didn't think the Unthanks were being intrusive with their song. The event was over and they were invited back to someone's house for a standard New Years party the way many of us are. They sang for their supper the way many of us do (or tell jokes, or show the white-eared elephant or the one-armed fiddler!). It brought the celebration back into the home showing it's not all about the public events but also about the private hospitality. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,henryp Date: 25 Dec 12 - 08:42 AM I don't know whether it is right to stand by respectfully and watch traditional ceremonies die. You could argue that the interest of 'outsiders' has brought new life to some events. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 25 Dec 12 - 03:15 PM henryp. There's quite a few folk customs been brought back from the dead including Bacup, according to one authority of my acquaintance. One could also mention numerous one-time musicians and singers who were encouraged to re-hone their musical skills and present them to a new and interested audience. Among blues singers alone, I can think of numerous luminaries such as Son House, Sleepy John Estes, Bukka White, Mance Lipscomb and John Hurt. Then there's the case of Joe Holmes (the Ulster singer and fiddle player, not the blues singer Joe Holmes who called himself King Solomon Hill), who never sang a note outside the house until Len Graham encouraged him to go public. Come to think of it, what sort of state would the Sheffield carols be in today, without the support and encouragement of Ian Russell. So there's an awful lot to be said for judicious and respectful external encouragement of folk tradition. But there's a world of difference between that and invading someone else's beanfeast with no consideration for the locals. However, I still cringe with embarressment whenever I recall the time I walked into someone's garden at Castleton. Purely by accident of course. Les. Unless you have someone in particular in mind, then I must disagree. I can think of several whom I would delightedly put on a four hour roast. But by and large, collectors and folklorists are a pretty un-selfserving lot and they have done a vast amount to further our knowledge of folk tradition, and what our ancestors thought and felt and how they went about their lives. And that's not something I would ever have got from any schoolbook. "Behold me now with my back to a wall, playing music to empty pockets." Antoine Ó Raifteiri. |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Les in Chorlton Date: 26 Dec 12 - 06:14 AM To be honest Fred i was only following this thread to see how long it would be before someone tuned 'nasty' on The Unthanks. Not a very laudable activity on my part. As for folklorists, it seems anybody can be one and say anything they like with out the bother of much evidence or even semi-serious research. Is that the legacy of Bert Lloyd? He was an immense character, who was easily a force for good , and has been explored in depth here and elaswhere, but he was never short of a hypothesis, theory or some connecting ideas between aspects of 'folklore' that were in all probability inconnected. Wassail, as somebody used to say Les |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 26 Dec 12 - 09:54 AM I wasn't turning nasty on The Unthanks, I just don't like that song. To have a couple of Folkies doing a show on so-called Traditions largely perpetuated / revived / attended / regulated by other Folkies demonstrates how far such things are now removed from their original non-Folkie habitat... |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST,henryp Date: 26 Dec 12 - 09:54 AM Where judicious external encouragement has revived an event, does it belong to the local community just as it did long ago? What role do the 'outsiders' then have? Do they become intruders once again? In Sheffield pubs, for instance, this isn't a problem while there is room inside. When demand exceeds the space available, who should be sacrificed - new locals, the old enthusiasts or the seasoned observers? |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: Les in Chorlton Date: 26 Dec 12 - 11:00 AM "I wasn't turning nasty on The Unthanks, " - I know Sean I was having a mild poke at Fred - quite undeserved - but a poke at dodgy 'folklorists- folkers/ fakers' is always good fun and needs to be done - I always enjoy your own activities in that area Les |
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Subject: RE: The Unthanks-A Very British Winter From: GUEST Date: 26 Dec 12 - 11:19 AM Fred McCormick is spot on- the BBC thinks you have to have celebs for less interesting topics like traditional music so haul in The Unthanks, Phil Cunningham, etc to liven it up- these plonkers will never grasp the fact that msany thousands of people are interested in the TOPIC rather than the celebs- also as i am from the Northeast can I say again that Geordies are really quite cheerful folk but this lot are the most bloody miserable crowd I've heard since leonard Cohen |
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